Long Game 24: The Godless City

[STINK he/him]

I'm just wasting your time! You shouldn't be focusing on little old Elb, who is totally innocent and nothing to worry about!

In other news, turns out that there are multiple Dulas, isn't that fun for the family?

[Elenion he/him]

1 minute ago, STINK said:

I'm just wasting your time! You shouldn't be focusing on little old Elb, who is totally innocent and nothing to worry about!

In other news, turns out that there are multiple Dulas, isn't that fun for the family?

Considering your last claim turned out to be a pile of chull dung I'm not sure whether or not to even ask what your evidence is this time. 

[Alvron]

Helpful Stink has left the building everyone.  Please welcome to the stage; Troll Stink.

[STINK he/him]

Helpful STINK didn't get enough attention. It was easy enough for Troll STINK to get GM STINK and Aman to lure helpful STINK into the QF, where he is now trapped in a pokeball. This isn't even Troll STINK, it's much much more lighthearted. It's Bored STINK wearing a mask!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kipper said:

Has anyone been contacted directly by the Dula that supposedly scanned Wilson, or are we just taking her word for it?

My first post^

56 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Um. I have no reason to lie about this, because I have virtually nothing to gain based on the nature of Dulas (only seeing eliminator alignment and not neutral or neutral-evil), and if I am telling the truth, I actually have quite a bit to lose, since if there are multiple eliminator factions, they'll already know that I'm not on their team so they don't have to worry about attacking me and hitting someone who could've potentially been helping them by killing.

Nothing to gain except the trust of the village, that is.

 

Quote

You make it seem like I'm trying to push the idea of my being village based on this scan. I'm not. The only reason I even mentioned the scan publicly was because Lopen tried to cast doubt on a number of people for what I thought was a ridiculous reason, so I contested it by mentioning that not only had I actually posted, but I'd also been checked by a Dula, so clearly his theory about the eliminators not posting to avoid being checked doesn't quite hold water since some Dulas might still just check those who haven't posted (because I know that my Dula wasn't sure about my post and if it would be allowed under the circumstances of the vote Joe had called for. But he decided to take a risk anyway to check me).

How does my one-sentence post asking a question make it seem like I'm trying to push the idea of you being village based on the scan? Really, I was making a pointed comment at @TheMightyLopen, who seemed to be buying it.

Quote

Please note that I'm not saying that I particularly trust my Dula or expect you to trust the Dula. Not at all. But to trust that someone approached me, claimed Dula, and scanned me as a non-eliminator? I think that's reasonable. Does that mean you're believing a scan actually happened? No. Because that's something else. There's a chance that my Dula could be evil and lying about being a Dula and saying that they scanned me to get me to trust them. Do I think that's what happening? No. But I haven't written off the possibility. The only claim I am making is that someone claimed Dula and that they scanned me and then claimed to scan Magestar. If they are a Dula, and they are village, we can trust the results--which again, isn't even saying terribly much since Magestar or I could be Neutral-Evil and therefore working against the village.

Stop trying to spin my words into saying something that I'm not. You expressed skepticism over a claim. I debated the validity of that skepticism, particularly the way you were implying that the Dula prove that he exists and that he scanned me (which I still take issue with. I mean what were you expecting? Two or three others to come forward and be like "Yeah, I had a Dula contact me saying they scanned Wilson"? Would that actually make you trust the Dula? Probably not. And even if it did convince you that the Dula was real, you'd then likely be worried about the Dula's safety because they've just revealed themselves to a couple of people who are unknowns. Not exactly the best course of action for an alignment scanner...)

I'm not the one spinning words here. I was never anything but clear with exactly what I meant. I never implied or suggested that the Dula should come forward. As I said earlier, my post was really a response to Lopen just believing you for apparently no reason. And actually, if the Dula did come forward and reveal to someone, anyone, that would make me feel much better about things. Right now, we have one person (you) potentially setting up this whole story. Magestar might be included. If the Dula comes forward, or we learn of any other people that the Dula has contacted, then we have more people connected, and the likelihood that all of them are Eliminators pulling the wool over our eyes actually does decrease. However, you appear to have already made up your mind that I had malicious intent with my post. And since I know that you've had three protective roles claim to you, and you know that, and you know that I know that, saying that I'd "likely be worried" about the Dula's safety is quite misleading. I'm sure that, if your Dula was real, you would have already lined up protection, and you wouldn't have included that line in your post.

Quote

You know what? Kipper. I already didn't trust you based on my PM with you. I think you're phishing for information in a way that is detrimental to the village, and therefore it's highly likely that you're either Neutral Evil or just plan Evil. Either way, I don't care if  you die.

I know. Even the best of us make mistakes. The crazy thing is that I hardly asked for information. I asked...once, whether you had PMd certain people within a certain time. I think that's about it. And as I've said above, with the information that you yourself have, the Dula outing is hardly a bad idea. However, since the rest of the players are blind to what goes on in our PM, your post is understandable. I guess this is why I accused you of screwing around with my words the first time, because I didn't realize that you were deliberately holding back information.

[Amanuensis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kipper said:

 

I'm not the one spinning words here. I was never anything but clear with exactly what I meant. I never implied or suggested that the Dula should come forward. As I said earlier, my post was really a response to Lopen just believing you for apparently no reason. And actually, if the Dula did come forward and reveal to someone, anyone, that would make me feel much better about things. Right now, we have one person (you) potentially setting up this whole story. Magestar might be included. If the Dula comes forward, or we learn of any other people that the Dula has contacted, then we have more people connected, and the likelihood that all of them are Eliminators pulling the wool over our eyes actually does decrease. However, you appear to have already made up your mind that I had malicious intent with my post. And since I know that you've had three protective roles claim to you, and you know that, and you know that I know that, saying that I'd "likely be worried" about the Dula's safety is quite misleading. I'm sure that, if your Dula was real, you would have already lined up protection, and you wouldn't have included that line in your post.

Emphasis mine.

Since there's no way I can die so long as I keep getting Arrested, I might as well admit that I'm the unscanned player who knows their identity. I don't have any reason to believe they're good, neutral or evil right now, and therefore will say nothing more on the matter.

[little wilson she/her]

3 minutes ago, Kipper said:

And since I know that you've had three protective roles claim to you, and you know that, and you know that I know that, saying that I'd "likely be worried" about the Dula's safety is quite misleading. I'm sure that, if your Dula was real, you would have already lined up protection, and you wouldn't have included that line in your post.

Maill was one of those protection claims, so 2 now. The other protection claim can't protect a Dula if we want the Dula to be useful so that leaves the last one, who is not someone I'd rely on for protecting that kind of role for an extended period of time.

[STINK he/him]

Is this when the PMs and claims start crumbling down? I always love when that happens

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

Kipper, I said I was willing to believe Wilson's claim for now. I doubted that Wilson was gonna claim something that she couldn't back up at least a little bit, and with scanners, who they are is usually spread around a bit given they should scan someone each Night, so I didn't see a reason to doubt her claim, given it would blow up in her face eventually if she was flat out lying about it.

I'm glad to hear that Aman is aware of the Dula's identity though, since he's my top guess for villager right now.

[STINK he/him]

Just cause Aman has been babysitted by a Legionnaire? 

Huh, that's alliteration, Lopen.

[Magestar he/him]

Umm, guys?  I left about an hour ago, and came back to find two and a half new pages of stuff.  So, I'm going to tentatively let you know I had no Idea I was being scanned, and that I am pretty sure this post will just be swept away in the flood that is currently happening.  Also, please don't tear me apart randomly by extrapolating a bunch of nonsense from this tiny post.

[STINK he/him]

Just now, Magestar said:

Umm, guys?  I left about an hour ago, and came back to find two and a half new pages of stuff.  So, I'm going to tentatively let you know I had no Idea I was being scanned, and that I am pretty sure this post will just be swept away in the flood that is currently happening.  Also, please don't tear me apart randomly by extrapolating a bunch of nonsense from this tiny post.

Wait! Zoom in there. Now enhance.

*a picture of Magestar writing in font size 1 that reads 'I AM EVIL!' is seen*

We got the guy, crew! Suit up and roll out in 10! We can't let him get away with this!

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Haha, this is a great thing to come back to. I guess I'll try and address what I can, Aman. Let's start with the first point you made, where it seems I missed something you said. I was actually trying to hit something else here, and it didn't come out very well in my post. I was looking at the specific scenario where we are trying to kill both a suspicious player and a secondary player that we don't want to waste discussion. I didn't see you point out this specific type of scenario, and I guess I overstated that by saying you hadn't address double lynches at all.

As far as the Pirate, I was again referring to the specific scenario that I mentioned above. If we decide someone is worth lynching, and after the fact it turns out they have a second life, then we don't need to focus a whole day's worth of discussion on them. This is where we employ the tie to let us still get good discussion and kill the suspected eliminator. I was in no way implying that we should go after all the extra life roles.

With Emerald, since I am on vacation, I made that post with the context of the Day 2 thread, and the last 10 or so posts Emerald had made. I was low on time, and couldn't figure out how to search for all posts by a player the way you could on the old format of the forum. But I hadn't really caught on that she had taken flak Day 1. All I saw was a post by Elbereth claiming a gut read in Emerald, followed by 3 players voting Emerald without justification. That looked to me like Elbereth starting a bandwagon without actually joining it herself. It seemed like a really fast bandwagon considering that there was over a day left in the cycle, and in truth, I didn't notice much productive discussion (although there were circumstances that somewhat justified that). 

I realize now, based on the votes on me, that what I saw as a response to Elbereth is more due to the dynamic of the players in this game, combined with a Day 1 that I was not really involved with. I appreciate the Aman was willing to hold off voting on me, and I also understand the players that didn't, but I think I've done a fairly good job here of justifying what I've "done" this game. Now, I need to go eat some dinner and watch a movie, but later this evening I commit to coming back and placing a vote of my own on somebody, with a decent amount of analysis behind it.

[Elenion he/him]

Since we had a good response from Araris, I'll clear him. I'll instead vote Kipper, since he's definitely been suspicious of late, as well as being all too eager to ride the bandwagons, in a way that suggests he was trying to get on the wagons early to get himself soft-cleared.

[STINK he/him]

Ride the bandwagons? That is an amazing mental picture, thanks

[Arraenae]

Interesting that Araris's defense is refers to specific scenarios. Couldn't he have clarified these scenarios in his original post, the way he did today? This feels like he's trying to back out of what he said in that first post.

[STINK he/him]

Interesting that Rae's post sounds scummy. Couldn't she have talked about more things, the way she did before? This feels like she wants to be seen as inputting without doing much.

[Amanuensis he/him]

2 hours ago, Araris Valerian said:

 

 

 

Haha, this is a great thing to come back to. I guess I'll try and address what I can, Aman. Let's start with the first point you made, where it seems I missed something you said. I was actually trying to hit something else here, and it didn't come out very well in my post. I was looking at the specific scenario where we are trying to kill both a suspicious player and a secondary player that we don't want to waste discussion. I didn't see you point out this specific type of scenario, and I guess I overstated that by saying you hadn't address double lynches at all.

As far as the Pirate, I was again referring to the specific scenario that I mentioned above. If we decide someone is worth lynching, and after the fact it turns out they have a second life, then we don't need to focus a whole day's worth of discussion on them. This is where we employ the tie to let us still get good discussion and kill the suspected eliminator. I was in no way implying that we should go after all the extra life roles.

With Emerald, since I am on vacation, I made that post with the context of the Day 2 thread, and the last 10 or so posts Emerald had made. I was low on time, and couldn't figure out how to search for all posts by a player the way you could on the old format of the forum. But I hadn't really caught on that she had taken flak Day 1. All I saw was a post by Elbereth claiming a gut read in Emerald, followed by 3 players voting Emerald without justification. That looked to me like Elbereth starting a bandwagon without actually joining it herself. It seemed like a really fast bandwagon considering that there was over a day left in the cycle, and in truth, I didn't notice much productive discussion (although there were circumstances that somewhat justified that). 

I realize now, based on the votes on me, that what I saw as a response to Elbereth is more due to the dynamic of the players in this game, combined with a Day 1 that I was not really involved with. I appreciate the Aman was willing to hold off voting on me, and I also understand the players that didn't, but I think I've done a fairly good job here of justifying what I've "done" this game. Now, I need to go eat some dinner and watch a movie, but later this evening I commit to coming back and placing a vote of my own on somebody, with a decent amount of analysis behind it.

Alright. I'll take this all into consideration. Just one thing on bandwagons, though, in particular to Elbereth's involvement in the one on Emerald. She had no part of it. She just told the thread that she gut read him as evil. It was Wilson who cast the first vote, and she had already said the previous cycle that Emerald was the player she was most suspicious of. Even so, that shouldn't implicate her because it's the way players afterwards respond to it that makes it a bandwagon it in the first place. So really here I think you're looking for the problem in the wrong place. Let's see...

1. Aman votes for Mailliw
2. Wilson votes for Emerald
3. Orlok votes for Mailliw
4. Lopen votes for Mailliw
5. Conquestor votes for Emerald
6. Kipper votes for Mailliw
7. Bard votes for Mailliw
8. Araris votes for Elbereth

So what I see here is Mailliw accruing 5 votes rapidly, whereas Emerald only gets two, and you call it a bandwagon prematurely. That sounds incredibly familiar to me. Like D1 of LG22 familiar. Didn't Seonid call two votes on Sart a bandwagon to discourage more people from voting for him, and it turned out they were both Darkfriends? Not saying this is the exact same scenario, but, I personally have never seen a villager call two votes a bandwagon (aside from Ecth and Len, maybe, but ones dead and we've already talked about the other enough).

Now let's look at what just happened with my post about you.

1. Aman votes for Araris
2. Len votes for Araris
3. Wilson votes for Kipper
4. Rae votes for Araris
5. Jaime votes for Araris

All of that happens in a short period of time. A half an hour max, maybe. Now THAT's a bandwagon, and a pretty suspicious one, in my opinion. Of those three players, I am most suspicious of Rae, mostly because of some PM stuff going on right now that I'm probably going to bring up after I finish working through it, followed by Jaime, and then Len (who I'm relatively confident is Village).

I myself am going to grab some dinner too, now that I'm done with the QF. Note, Araris, that I am happy that you defended yourself, but before I remove my vote and vote for someone else I would like more people to weigh in on you, first. After I eat, I'll start analyzing Rae more thoroughly, and maybe change my vote to her. But that'll only be if I hear enough people talk about you. I don't want all of that effort I put into that post to go to waste and have everyone just move on to the next target without adding their own thoughts.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Amanuensis

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

I thought Araris explained himself fairly well. I will say that I had an initial village read on him when he defended himself from Eol on N2, but other than that, I'm not too sure.

Rae, my evil read on Orlok isn't much. It's basically a mixture of gut and someone else I was talking to in PM's stated a bit of suspicion of him. I'm not at all confident in that read. Like, using Wilson's scale, he'd probably be like 47. So it's mostly nothing.

[Amanuensis he/him]

1 minute ago, TheMightyLopen said:

 

I thought Araris explained himself fairly well. I will say that I had an initial village read on him when he defended himself from Eol on N2, but other than that, I'm not too sure.

You said the exact same thing about Seonid in LG22  same situation, same read. Just saying.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

12 hours ago, Magestar said:

A story, perhaps, for another time.  

 

When will this time be Magestar?

[TheMightyLopen he/him]

6 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

You said the exact same thing about Seonid in LG22  same situation, same read. Just saying.

I was more confident that Seonid was a villager, tbh.  But hey, why you gotta pick on my single bad read in that game? 

1 minute ago, Silverblade5 said:

When will this time be Magestar?

You do realize that Magestar was scanned by a Dula? The Dula could be evil, sure, but I thought I'd make sure you knew that.

[Magestar he/him]

@Silverblade5, did you just pull something completely out of context and vote for me based on it?  'Cause that's what it looks like you did.  I think I vaguely remember that particular line being to the effect of 'I don't want to explain why I could not talk on N2 and wanted to sound cool.'.  But that's really it.  Plus, apparently I was scanned good.  

edit; I probably won't respond to anything anyone says from this point on because I am trying to watch a movie.  See you guys in the morning.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Magestar

[Silverblade5 he/him]

1 hour ago, TheMightyLopen said:

I was more confident that Seonid was a villager, tbh.  But hey, why you gotta pick on my single bad read in that game? 

You do realize that Magestar was scanned by a Dula? The Dula could be evil, sure, but I thought I'd make sure you knew that.

 

1 hour ago, Magestar said:

@Silverblade5, did you just pull something completely out of context and vote for me based on it?  'Cause that's what it looks like you did.  I think I vaguely remember that particular line being to the effect of 'I don't want to explain why I could not talk on N2 and wanted to sound cool.'.  But that's really it.  Plus, apparently I was scanned good.  

edit; I probably won't respond to anything anyone says from this point on because I am trying to watch a movie.  See you guys in the morning.

My bad. I responded to this post before reading what came after. 

Magestar

Rae said some things in pm that make me think she's at least netrual evil. 

[Arraenae]

 

40 minutes ago, Silverblade5 said:

Rae said some things in pm that make me think she's at least netrual evil. 

Ah, this. Araris. Do you want to explain what happened, or should I, Silverblade? Pushing my lynch would most assuredly end with your death. Your teammates wouldn't like that, huh?

Edited August 4, 2016 by Arraenae
Vote color