shallans next truth

[forgedpig]

I had a theory pop into my head today and I think it could actually be a thing. So I think that one of Shallans future truths will be about Helarens death and the anger she will probably feel towards Kal and I imagine it will be something like "Helarens death wasn't Kaladin fault". I think it also fits into Brandon withholding Helarens death from Shallan for so long.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Her previous oaths were "I killed my mother" and "I killed my father", so the last one has to be pretty big. 

I also don't think it's personal enough to be her last truth. All of her previous ones have been about herself. 

I I believe her las oath will be something about her relationship with Pattern and place as a KR. We know that she hates Pattern and he expects her to kill him. I think her last truth will resolve that. 

Alternatively, learning that Kaladin killed Helaram could start her on the path to killing Pattern. I can't see that happening for a few more books, though. 

[Erklitt she/her]

Interesting idea, @forgedpig, but I tend to agree with @thegatorgirl00. There may be something even deeper in her past then both killings of her parents (though it's hard to imagine what that might be). She calls the shardblade 'the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act'. (TWoK chapter 45: 'Shadesmar') How can the shardblade be the 'fruit' of killing her mother? She had to have it already in order to do it. [Edit] And after all, there has to be a reason why her mother wanted to kill her. [Edit end]

But I agree that finding out Kaladin killed Helaran will lead to some repercussions.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Erklitt

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

@thegatorgirl00 Do you have the location of that WoB? I've seen others say the same and don't recall seeing the WoB so I wonder if it's one I've missed

[lady_radiant]

I agree with @thegatorgirl00, I think her next truth will be something more personal to her. I am unsure as to how she will handle finding out Kaladin is the one responsible for killing Helaran. In WoR after she discovers Amaram was responsible for Helaran's death she does have a thought along the lines of 'Well what else was Amaram suppoed to do? Helaran was trying to kill him'. I will need to look up the specific passage when I'm home from work for page reference because I cannot remember if she thinks this when she is still in disguise talking to Amaram outside his manor, or if she thinks it when she is taking shelter from the Highstorm with Kal in the Plains when he's telling her his stoy. But I don't think she's put it together yet that Kal is responsible for Helaran's death. (?)

Will it be a major character interaction for her and Kal when she does find out, due to their tenuous relationship, she is afterall starting to have feelings of attraction for him but not aware of it; could finding out Kal is responsible for Helaran's death be a major blow?

Or will she eventually come to terms with it as she did with Amaram, e.g.Thinking Well,  Helaran was trying to kill somebody but was killed instead. 

I personally think she will be more preoccupied with finding out why Helaran was trying to kill Amaram, where he got his Shardblade, and in general, what the hell he was up to.

[Argel he/him]

9 hours ago, ParadoxSpren said:

@thegatorgirl00 Do you have the location of that WoB? I've seen others say the same and don't recall seeing the WoB so I wonder if it's one I've missed

I've re-read her post a couple times and I have no idea what WoB you are looking for -- everything she wrote is from the books, either explicit or heavily implied.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I like the idea, but I too think that wont' end up being the case.

The Lightweaver oaths after the first all (so far) seem to be pointed towards self-awareness and discovery, not having to do with apportioning blame or forgiveness, I'd expect that more from an Edgedancer with their concern for others well being. I'd expect her next oath to have something to do with her blending of identities or realization of the Truth that Veil is the real person and Shallan is just another illusion that she weaves... or something like that. 

Doesn't she still have 2 more oaths possible as each order was supposed to speak 5 Oaths right? The First Ideal, the truth about her Father and Mother... am I missing one? 

[Erklitt she/her]

55 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Doesn't she still have 2 more oaths possible as each order was supposed to speak 5 Oaths right? The First Ideal, the truth about her Father and Mother... am I missing one? 

There was the 'small' truth she gave before her first entry into Shadesmar, her answer to Pattern's question: "What are you?": "I am terrified". It might be debatable whether this can be counted as one of the five steps, maybe it was just something needed for her to start the way back from her long phase of 'self-lies'. Yet I believe there is a WoB that Shallan is farther along her vows than Kaladin is, so I guess this counts. (Either that, or there was a pre-mother's-death one we yet know nothing about.)

[KageNoOni]

I don't have the book with me at the moment, but there is a scene at the end of TWoK, where Shallan confronts Jasnah about the fact she can Soulcast with out needing a Soulcaster.  She ends up showing Jasnah the picture she drew of Shadesmar, then to prove that she actually went there, instead of simply reading/hearing about it, she asks one of the Cryptics following her (possibly Pattern, but it isn't actually stated if it was him or not) to take her back.  They reply she needs a truth.  She states that Jasnah's Soulcaster is a fake, adding that she's sure of that.  The Cryptic then tells her it has to be a truth about herself.

That section seems to disprove your theory.  The truths that matter are truths about herself.  The point of these truths seems to be self-discovery.  She needs to accept the truth of who she is, and what her past is.  She's told by Pattern that while her lies are what drew him in the first place, she needs to accept the truths about herself as well, because both are a required part of her order.

[Yata he/him]

To me her last Truth will be "I am Batman!" (rich family, parents murdered, double identity)

Edited June 28, 2016 by Yata

[Erklitt she/her]

20 minutes ago, Yata said:

To me her last Truth will be "I am Batman!" (rich family, parents murdered, double identity)

 Nice idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

I've re-read her post a couple times and I have no idea what WoB you are looking for -- everything she wrote is from the books, either explicit or heavily implied.

I know the one about her Mother, but I'm curious about the other two; regardless of implication has Brandon actually confirmed that those were the two Truths Shallan spoke, as before the incident she was already 3rd level?

[dvoraen]

4 hours ago, ParadoxSpren said:

I know the one about her Mother, but I'm curious about the other two; regardless of implication has Brandon actually confirmed that those were the two Truths Shallan spoke, as before the incident she was already 3rd level?

To my recollection, he's only confirmed that Shallan is 4/5, but hasn't specified what exactly steps two and three were that she took.

As to Shallan's final step, I think all the earmarks are there for it being her remembrance of the events that led to the attempt on her life by her mother.  I think Shallan is repressing quite a bit from those days.  Something happened in her past, something that caused her to start wishing her life was something else ("dreams that became real"), something that made her start to build a facade and thereby attracting the attention of a Cryptic.  I wager that something is the truth about her mother.  The one thing I can't guess is how, when, and why Shallan invoked the First Ideal.  The closest we've gotten to her discussing it is Pattern reminding her about it, and Shallan immediately repressing it.

Edited June 29, 2016 by dvoraen

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

31 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

To my recollection, he's only confirmed that Shallan is 4/5, but hasn't specified what exactly steps two and three were that she took.

As to Shallan's final step, I think all the earmarks are there for it being her remembrance of the events that led to the attempt on her life by her mother.  I think Shallan is repressing quite a bit from those days.  Something happened in her past, something that caused her to start wishing her life was something else ("dreams that became real"), something that made her start to build a facade and thereby attracting the attention of a Cryptic.  I wager that something is the truth about her mother.  The one thing I can't guess is how, when, and why Shallan invoked the First Ideal.  The closest we've gotten to her discussing it is Pattern reminding her about it, and Shallan immediately repressing it.

She touches very very briefly about noticing patterns in some kind of (?)rock formation(?) in her parents' garden during her early childhood, which is probably the start of the proto-surgebinder phase

[Stormgate he/him]

Going back to Helaren, Shallan would probably think that she should not forgive Kaladin, so perhaps her final truth is, "I forgive Kaladin"

[Blightsong he/him]

My idea is that her last truth is going to be something like "My family has never been happy". We know that she had attracted Pattern at a very young age, so my idea is that it has something to do with her very far past. It wouldn't make sense for her last truth to deal with something that hasn't even happened yet.

[AndrolGenhald]

Maybe something closer to "I ruined my family" or "My family would have been better off without me"? Her family never being happy doesn't seem as bad to me as killing her parents. Given that all of her truths so far deal with her past though, I agree it will likely be related to her past and how she's been broken.

[Erklitt she/her]

I believe that as a young child, already bonded to Pattern (to an extent), she (probably inadvertently) made something terrible happen. Maybe many deaths, maybe something completely different. Whatever it was, I think there were two results:
1) Her mother wanted to kill her because she thought her too dangerous to be allowed to live
2) In the process, she uttered a truth that put her far enough along her radiant development to enable Pattern to become a shardblade for her.

Thus, he became

Quote

'the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act'.

(TWoK chapter 45: 'Shadesmar') 

This must have happened before she killed her mother because when she did, Pattern was already available to her.

[Argel he/him]

From what we know, it sounds like her mother thought she could be on the path to become a KR or had ties to the voidbringers. Basically, a religious thing. We have no reason to believe Shallan caused many deaths at such a young age. If something like that did happen, it sounds more like an accident.

Also, I see no reason why the fifth truth could not be based on something new. I think what is most relevant is how strongly she is lying to herself. So a tie-in to Heleran is a good possibility.

 

[Blightsong he/him]

3 hours ago, AndrolGenhald said:

Maybe something closer to "I ruined my family" or "My family would have been better off without me"? Her family never being happy doesn't seem as bad to me as killing her parents. Given that all of her truths so far deal with her past though, I agree it will likely be related to her past and how she's been broken.

I think her family being happy is literally the most important thing to her. She said as much to Hoid at the fair. Her dream was for her family to be happy, like it was before her mother's death, if this wasn't even the case I could see how it could crush her.

2 hours ago, Erklitt said:

I believe that as a young child, already bonded to Pattern (to an extent), she (probably inadvertently) made something terrible happen. Maybe many deaths, maybe something completely different. Whatever it was, I think there were two results:
1) Her mother wanted to kill her because she thought her too dangerous to be allowed to live
2) In the process, she uttered a truth that put her far enough along her radiant development to enable Pattern to become a shardblade for her.

Thus, he became

This must have happened before she killed her mother because when she did, Pattern was already available to her.

But why would Pattern go to her BEFORE she had anything happen to her, I believe it's because of the above, her lying to herself about the state of her family.

2 hours ago, Argel said:

From what we know, it sounds like her mother thought she could be on the path to become a KR or had ties to the voidbringers. Basically, a religious thing. We have no reason to believe Shallan caused many deaths at such a young age. If something like that did happen, it sounds more like an accident.

Also, I see no reason why the fifth truth could not be based on something new. I think what is most relevant is how strongly she is lying to herself. So a tie-in to Heleran is a good possibility.

 

But she isn't lying to herself at all about Heleran. When she learns that Amaram "killed" Heleran she acknowledged that it was most likely self defense (indicating that she knows Heleran was in the wrong) but that she still hated Amaram on the principle of him having killed her brother. I just feel like there is nothing really there.

 

I also think that her last truth should be about her past because she apperently still has stuff to face about it. Brandon has confirmed that she had stuff to deal with when Pattern first bonded her, so I don't understand why that would be left alone for current events, which haven't created deep seated lies within her so far as we have seen. More evidence that she isn't doing this is that when she started too, when Jasnah died and she lost her drawings, Pattern specifically warns her away from it (I actually think that it would damage her bond) and that was the only time we have seen him do that.

[Zoaez she/her]

I agree with the various opinions saying it is likely a past event Shallan has buried so deeply we haven't seen much hint of it. Brandon likes to hide hints so in hindsight I'm sure it will be obvious, much like her mother's death.

My bit to add support to this is to point out that a spren bonds a person who's spirit web has been broken (the bond being Honors way to grant power), making a new spirit web that is whole and has greater Capacity. So, something happened to break Shallan before her mother tried to kill her for being a protoradiant. What that might be I haven't a clue. Also I don't think it needs to be "worse" than premeditated patracide. Just something she refuses to acknowledge about her true self. It could be a personality trait, or motive that she doesn't acknowledge such as selfishness.

On 6/29/2016 at 2:42 PM, Erklitt said:

I believe that as a young child, already bonded to Pattern (to an extent), she (probably inadvertently) made something terrible happen. Maybe many deaths, maybe something completely different. Whatever it was, I think there were two results:
1) Her mother wanted to kill her because she thought her too dangerous to be allowed to live
2) In the process, she uttered a truth that put her far enough along her radiant development to enable Pattern to become a shardblade for her.

Thus, he became

This must have happened before she killed her mother because when she did, Pattern was already available to her.

I think you are thinking about how her major truth of WoR was about her killing, and so are projecting that into your theories. While it certainly might have contained pain, death, or violence  (caused by Shallan or not) that broke Shallan in the first place, I don't think it was related to Pattern or caused by the ablities he granted. 

My reasoning is this, someone must be broken or at least cracked (spiritually) before bonding a spren. Pattern was attracted by Shallan's lies about her self. By this logic something major that we do not know about happened to her, she is lieing to her self about it, and it predated Pattern and also attracted him to her.

Also there are strong allusions in Shallan's flashbacks of her mother's death that her mother and the mothers "friend" were part of a secret orginization. It is likely then that her and her partner wanted Shallan dead because of the goals of whatever orginization they belonged too. The creepy ghostblood guy dropped a not so subtle hint about it too in his final scene of the book (when he confronts Shallan in Urithelu letting her know he figured out who Vale was). He mentioned that it must be a family trait to get involved in groups like the ghostbloods. 

On 6/29/2016 at 5:49 PM, Blightsong said:

I also think that her last truth should be about her past because she apperently still has stuff to face about it. Brandon has confirmed that she had stuff to deal with when Pattern first bonded her, so I don't understand why that would be left alone for current events, which haven't created deep seated lies within her so far as we have seen. More evidence that she isn't doing this is that when she started too, when Jasnah died and she lost her drawings, Pattern specifically warns her away from it (I actually think that it would damage her bond) and that was the only time we have seen him do that.

Your point about Pattern warning (I say guiding) Shallan away from lieing to her self about the pain from losing her art is insightful. I'd been wondering how a lightbinder could break their oaths if they are admitting truths and not "Words" like Kaladins oaths. Your idea seems highly likely. I would like to point out that the truths she has said up to this point have all been from after she bonded with Pattern. Perhaps he was sentient in her childhood but with her mother's murder he broke until she started admitting truths again.

My best guess before that was that it was not directly related to truth or lie persey, just because she can fabricate things and it is part of her magic. (Yours is much more sound heh).

Edit (new thought!): Shallan and Pattern talk about her progression one night when she is up late (doing scholarship!), it is in WoR near ch 50-60 when she is in sabareals camp. He tries to push her and she breaks down telling him she can't touch those truths as she is only a whole person by lieing to her self. She sketches her self as she should be, a twisted broken wretch. (I think this is actually linked to her final lie).

At this point she is trying to add sound and movement to her illusions. Pattern says she used to be able to do all this before in the garden (premothers death) and she shuts that down so fast that you only get a glimmer of the gardens and Shallan playing with the light. She refuses to move on in her self awareness so Pattern sighs and says that she must relearn then.

1) she used to be better at light weaving

2) Pattern was intelligent back then and is regaining memory of it, he must have been broken as Syl was. I think it's possible she was 4/5 back then too and only now regained it.

3) uh I actually forgot my original idea. Hmm. Well I will finish by saying we got small glimmers of her mother's death that gradually unfolded, I think we have gotten small glimmers of her final revelation but not much yet. She sees herself as broken, but I think she must face the truth that she has been made whole. Or something simlar. (Although there were hints of a strong bloodlust in Shallan, she's always disappointed when she doesn't get to fight)

 

Also, I have only read books, just finding these forums and copper mind and not really reading WoB. So as far as I am aware, summoning a shard blade from a bonded spren is not dependant on the oath level, the levels seem to unlock knowledge. So from my point of view, Kaladin could have summoned Syl as a blade and done any of the lashings after the first oath but lacked the know how to do it. And I think the same applies to Shallan. 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Zoaez
Added on some rambling sleepy thoughts at the end.

[Erklitt she/her]

4 hours ago, Zoaez said:

[...]

I think you are thinking about how her major truth of WoR was about her killing, and so are projecting that into your theories. While it certainly might have contained pain, death, or violence  (caused by Shallan or not) that broke Shallan in the first place, I don't think it was related to Pattern or caused by the ablities he granted. 

My reasoning is this, someone must be broken or at least cracked (spiritually) before bonding a spren. Pattern was attracted by Shallan's lies about her self. By this logic something major that we do not know about happened to her, she is lieing to her self about it, and it predated Pattern and also attracted him to her.

Also there are strong allusions in Shallan's flashbacks of her mother's death that her mother and the mothers "friend" were part of a secret orginization. It is likely then that her and her partner wanted Shallan dead because of the goals of whatever orginization they belonged too. The creepy ghostblood guy dropped a not so subtle hint about it too in his final scene of the book (when he confronts Shallan in Urithelu letting her know he figured out who Vale was). He mentioned that it must be a family trait to get involved in groups like the ghostbloods. 

[...]

Also, I have only read books, just finding these forums and copper mind and not really reading WoB. So as far as I am aware, summoning a shard blade from a bonded spren is not dependant on the oath level, the levels seem to unlock knowledge. So from my point of view, Kaladin could have summoned Syl as a blade and done any of the lashings after the first oath but lacked the know how to do it. And I think the same applies to Shallan. 

As everyone responding to my post seems to have skipped over, I followed the possibility of 'maybe many deaths' with 'maybe something completely different'. So no, I'm not projecting the killing into my theories, I'm just sure it must have been something really traumatic and connected with a lot of guilt.

You may be right that even the first bonding happened after the event, the point of Pattern needing a crack in the soul to come in is a good one. So possibly the traumatic event wasn't connected to Pattern's powers. However we do know that a (newly forged? newly deepened?) bond was the result of it, and there was terrible guilt involved (at least from her subjective point of view), rather than Shallan just being an innocent victim, as your ghostblood theory seems to suggest.. I repeat the quote about her shardblade:

Quote

'the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act'.

(WoK chapter 45: 'Shadesmar') 

This actually implies that she feels more guilty about it then the murder of both her parents!

 

I agree to your theory that she was pretty far along with her lightweaving as a small child. And the hints of a mysterious garden scene certainly are suggestive.

 

As for your last paragraph: the text makes it clear at several times that the abilities are dependent on level. The best example is Kaladin in an early stage (but after the first oath) when he tries to walk on a wall but fails.

Quote

Syl landed on his chest. "Kaladin? What was that?"
"Me being an idiot", he replied, sitting up and feeling an ache in his back and a sharp pain in his elbow where he'd hit the ground. "Teft said that the Radiants were able to walk on walls, and I felt so alive. ..."
Syl walked on air, stepping as if down a set of stairs. "I don't think you're ready for that yet. Don't be so risky. If you die, I go stupid again, you know."

 WoK, chapter 59: 'An Honor'

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Erklitt

[Oversleep]

On 29.06.2016 at 10:28 PM, Stormgate said:

Going back to Helaren, Shallan would probably think that she should not forgive Kaladin, so perhaps her final truth is, "I forgive Kaladin"

While I strongly disagree with you, I upvoted that cause somebody downvoted that for no reason.

On the topic: I have to say that Shallan's past is quite mysterious and I didn't realize that before reading that thread - after WoR I thought that we're done with the truths of the past and we will move on to the truths of "who I am?". Less confessions, more self-awareness.

But now I think there is something more in her past - how did she became broken? What were the lies that attracted Pattern? Were these only fantasies of a child or something else? I always thought that her mother (being part of organization which hunted down Radiants - there are some) saw Shallan play with Illumination Surge, freaked out, reported to organization and came back to kill her.

But Pattern implies she already told a Truth back then. I wonder what could it be?

[Argel he/him]

Wasn't the first truth something like "I'm afraid"?

[Erklitt she/her]

11 hours ago, Argel said:

Wasn't the first truth something like "I'm afraid"?

Yes, on her 'Radiant Reawakening'. ('I'm terrified' I believe). But her truths as a child when she first bonded Pattern would have to be different ones, truths about her back then. I wonder just like @Oversleep: what could the truths of a little child look like?