Is Jasnah Kholin gay?

[natc]

I'm under the impression that even men somewhat literate outside of the ardentia can only read glyphs, which do convey meaning but are of limited use as a proper script, while the script women use is still the only proper written language in Vorin territories. Whether you could call that literacy by Jasnah standards is somewhat debatable; it's like standardized pictures.

Edited April 21, 2016 by natc

[Vissy]

How about the script Amaram and the stormwardens use? 

[Samaldin]

Wasn´t the script they use just a sequence of glyphs, somewhere it´s said that they cheat the "no man can read" rule like that? So they don´t have any grammar or tenses. I believe their sentences translate to something like: Eye Sky Highstorm Five (By observing they sky we estimate a highstorm in 5 days). I have no proof for this just my personal interpretation

[DreamEternal]

Wasn´t the script they use just a sequence of glyphs, somewhere it´s said that they cheat the "no man can read" rule like that? So they don´t have any grammar or tenses. I believe their sentences translate to something like: Eye Sky Highstorm Five (By observing they sky we estimate a highstorm in 5 days). I have no proof for this just my personal interpretation

Not exactly true. Shallan remarks Amaram used glyphs phonetically, making it a true script, even if one more chaotic than women's script.

Edited April 21, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Nyali]

Not exactly true. Shallan remarks Amaram used glyphs phonetically, making it a true script, even if one more chaotic than women's script.

 

Though, it isn't clear if this phonetic glyph thing is exclusive to Amaram's notes or if all Stormwardens do it.

[Vissy]

We can infer that other Stormwardens probably use a similar script, too. It's that, or the Sons of Honor have developed a unique means of communication. I find it more plausible that the Stormwardens achieved this. They're known to be scholars.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Varangian

[Mr. Staccato]

Okay this may be a little bit out of topic but since this point has been raised, I would like to address this first before I get on to Jasnah's sexuality.

 

There are theories going around that only people who have undergone significant trauma in their lives have the capacity to bond with their spren and thus subsequently become members of the order. I don't like the idea that only broken people get to become surgebinders or knights radiant (I don't necessarily disagree with it - I just don't like it). I get that spren choose people whose convictions are strong and in line with the ideals that they themselves represent - and that the best way for such convictions to arise or solidify only occur during personal tragedies, but having said that, I think that certain people do in fact happen upon powerful convictions on their own without having to undergo the severe experiences the protagonists of the Stormlight Archive are well known for. I guess I just don't like thinking that power in Roshar automatically equates to woobieness.

 

Now regarding Jasnah's sexuality, I don't think she's gay - but having said that, it might be fair to say that Jasnah eschews the entire concept of gender identification. So instead of being gay (or straight for that matter), she's just being... you know, Jasnah - herself. No labels or titles or anything else attached. She is certainly open-minded and unconventional enough for it.

 

Jasnah also strikes me as the kind of person who, if ever the thought of romance actually strikes her, would go for people who actually understand her and (as Shallan has kindly demonstrated) exhibits the same kind of passion she has for learning and research, regardless of the shell said characteristics come with.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Mr. Staccato

[Erunion]

Okay this may be a little bit out of topic but since this point has been raised, I would like to address this first before I get on to Jasnah's sexuality.

 

There are theories going around that only people who have undergone significant trauma in their lives have the capacity to bond with their spren and thus subsequently become members of the order. I don't like the idea that only broken people get to become surgebinders or knights radiant (I don't necessarily disagree with it - I just don't like it). I get that spren choose people whose convictions are strong and in line with the ideals that they themselves represent - and that the best way for such convictions to arise or solidify only occur during personal tragedies, but having said that, I think that certain people do in fact happen upon powerful convictions on their own without having to undergo the severe experiences the protagonists of the Stormlight Archive are well known for. I guess I just don't like thinking that power in Roshar automatically equates to woobieness.

 

Now regarding Jasnah's sexuality, I don't think she's gay - but having said that, it might be fair to say that Jasnah eschews the entire concept of gender identification. So instead of being gay, she's just being... you know, Jasnah - herself. No labels or titles or anything else attached. She is certainly open-minded and unconventional enough for it.

 

Jasnah also strikes me as the kind of person who, if ever the thought of romance actually strikes her, would go for people who actually understand her and (as Shallan has kindly demonstrated) exhibits the same kind of passion she has for learning and research, regardless of the shell said characteristics come with.

 

Agree with you on Jasnah. 

On Surgebinders, I'm pretty sure we have a WOB on this, but if someone could find it that'd be great: 

In order for a spren to bond to you, you need to have cracks in your spirit web for the spren to fill with Investiture. Trauma is the best known way to develop these cracks, although not necessarily the only way.

So, yes, you can have Knights Radiant convictions that attract spren without being cracked, but the spren can't complete the bond until you ARE cracked, AFAIK. 

 

The only counterpoint to this, is how would Shallan have gotten 'cracks' BEFORE the whole debacle with her mother? So it's quite possible there are other, non-awful ways to allow for a spren bond.

[Nyali]

Yeah, as far as I can tell, it isn't about what the trauma teaches you (though that aspect does help on Roshar due to how bondspren work). It's about needing to damage your projection into the spiritual realm to allow investiture in. It's the same on most worlds, though some forms of investiture sidestep this need. On Nalthis, you can Awaken without having a damaged soul because the investiture is literally passed from person to person rather than being pulled from elsewhere. Sel may be similar because the investiture is handled and managed by the land (well, the Dor, which is accessed through a specific qualities and visual representations of a nation), which has a soul that has already been broken beyond recognition by the splintering of two Shards. On Scadrial, the investiture comes from within, so your soul needs cracks in order for it to be able to filter and process investiture (hence, "snapping").

 

On Roshar, while the Stormlight is external investiture, in order to wield it, you have to hold it literally inside of you. Nalthan Breaths seem like they sit on the surface rather than inside because you use them by giving them away and they drain color from non-invested objects to fuel the transition. They don't use anything that's actually inside of you. But with Stormlight, you need a properly cracked soul in order to pull the Stormlight in, and then you can use it to make your physical aspect more like your cognitive aspect (aka heal) or use it to manipulate a Surge. Even if you are just giving it away (like, for Soulcasting), you have to have first held it inside of you. I suspect Soulcaster fabrials work by having the spren in the gems take care of the gritty details of the Soulcasting, which the Soulcaster forms a weak bond with in order to communicate. But, the spren (and/or gemstone the spren is trapped inside of) is holding the Stormlight in that case, not the person, so they don't need a cracked soul.

 

On a side note, I suspect that Returned on Nalthis do have cracked souls, which is how their Breaths are able to change their physical appearance in a similar manner to healing with Stormlight. I also suspect that the aspect of having a "cracked" soul (a manifestation in the spiritual realm that has breaks in it which allow investiture to leak in) is somehow hereditary, at least to some extent. Like, some aspect of the effects of cracking your soul carry on to your children. Or, maybe, if your soul is cracked, your children's souls can inherit the capacity to crack, with that capacity weakening over time unless an external force alters it. That's why Mistborn tend to be the children of Mistborn and Mistings the children of Mistborn and Mistings. Same with Feruchemy. I'd hazard a guess that this is also why Dalinar, Renarin, and Jasnah, three of the seven natural Surgebinders we've seen on screen so far (Szeth being a special case and not counting), are all close relatives. I'd guess that Elhokar has the potential as well, which is why he sees Cryptics in the mirror, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gavilar was in the process of bonding with the Stormfather when he died.

 

 

 

But I'm totally off topic here! So, on topic, recall what Jasnah wrote in one of her books that Shallan reads in a flashback scene. In her book, Jasnah is offended by the whole idea that women need to conform to some specific ideal just because they're women, that half of the population of Roshar should be limited in such a fashion by conventions binding them to specific tasks. To quote Jasnah's book:

 

"[...] They ignore the greater assumption, that a place for women must be defined and set forth to begin with. Half of the population must somehow be reduced to the role arrived at by a single conversation. No matter how broad that role is, it will be, by nature, a reduction from the infinite variety that is womanhood. I say that there is no role for women. There is instead a role for each woman, and she must make it for herself. For some, it will be the role of scholar. For others, it will be the role of wife. For others it will be both. For yet others, it will be neither. Do not mistake me in assuming I value one woman's role above another. My point is not to stratify our society, we have done that far too well already. My point is to diversify our discourse. A woman's strength should not be in her role, whatever she chooses it to be, but in the power to choose that role. It is amazing to me that I even have to make this point, as I see it as the very foundation of our conversation."

 

In other words, stop trying to put labels on Jasnah and define her role for her. She'll define it for herself when she chooses to and if she chooses to. So there!

[the winter system]

Although I like more repersentation, I also like the idea of a woman who just doesn't really want to get married. Although survivor repersentation and queer representation are both vital, I just want her to stay single. Maybe not even ace- just... voluntarily single. And stay that way. 

[CaptainRyan]

Perhaps Sanderson is reserving Jasnah in case he reaches a point where he feels more comfortable writing a LGBTA+ character? Or maybe not.

If not, I think a lot of people are missing the colorful writing on the wall: Who is a known scholar with a fiery red passion for research who would definitely appreciate a woman as wonderfully bright (get the pun?) as Jasnah? Hint: he wishes he had made the choice that let's him sleep at night.

[Nyali]

Perhaps Sanderson is reserving Jasnah in case he reaches a point where he feels more comfortable writing a LGBTA+ character? Or maybe not.

If not, I think a lot of people are missing the colorful writing on the wall: Who is a known scholar with a fiery red passion for research who would definitely appreciate a woman as wonderfully bright (get the pun?) as Jasnah? Hint: he wishes he had made the choice that let's him sleep at night.

 

I can't even... That pairing... Wow... That's not a ship I'd have built, but now that it's there...

[CaptainRyan]

I can't even... That pairing... Wow... That's not a ship I'd have built, but now that it's there...

 

All aboard the SS Jasher! Vashnah? Erm, help me out here folks. You know what, just get on the dang ship!

[Nyali]

Elsebreaker? Elsegiver? Warcaller? Jaslaxin? Zanah? Jashel? You have too many names, Vasher x.x

 

Vashnah is probably my favorite though.

[Jondesu]

Jasher would definitely be my choice, though Vasnah is great too. :-P

jW

[DreamEternal]

Ohmygod, it is an even better ship than my Jasnalan idea!

ps: think long enough and assume Nalan has a logical point but got some details wrong and Jasnalan starts to make sense, I swear.

[the winter system]

The whole point of Jasnah is that she a woman who just... doesn't want a man. Whether she's gay, ace, or straight with other priorities, any option but a straight ship. 

I refuse to ship it. 

Besides, he's too old for her. 

[DSC01]

The whole point of Jasnah is that she a woman who just... doesn't want a man. 

 

To me, that's not the point of Jasnah at all. My impression of the little she's said about men or romance in general is that she is not interested in being defined by such relationships. The point of Jasnah is that she's a scholar, etc. I don't see much in the text to indicate anything at all about what her romantic and/or sexual inclinations might be. That's just not important to her.

 

There are little tidbits here and there that imply something about it (the flashback to the night of Gavilar's assassination in WoR, for example, with her thinking about how nothing is ever going to happen with Amaram, or the way Shallan notices from her expression when she kills the thugs in Kharbranth that something is going on with her and men), but I don't think that it does more than suggest any number of things. One could interpret the text to imply that she is gay, straight, asexual--anything.

 

My point, though, is that romance is not a defining attribute of her character at all. 

[VirtuousTraveller]

"I don't want to offend anyone or anything but i have been reading the way of the king again and Jasnah struck me as very independent and strong will"

 

In good humor to the OP, I couldn't stop laughing when I read this - "very independent and strong will(ed)" - YEP MUST BE GAY! 

 

My point, though, is that romance is not a defining attribute of her character at all. 

 

I agree entirely.  One of my favorite parts of reading stories is just that - they're stories.  In real life, humans have deep and complex themes and attributes - stories only convey what of any of these are relevant to a character's role.  It's up to our imagination to fill in the gaps.  Jasnah ain't got time for romance - she's too busy trying to save the world!

[Erunion]

 

My point, though, is that romance is not a defining attribute of her character at all. 

 

That's it for me too. She's a person who does not want to be defined by her gender, sexuality or anything else. She is a scholar, first, foremost, and always. Romance, sexuality, all of that is of such low importance to her (as compared to her work) that it may as well be irrelevant. 

[Argel]

So, anyone want to ship Khriss and Jasnah? Khrisnah?

[Dahak]

Just a quick point of fact - check the end of WoR again. We last see her arriving back in Roshar from Shadesmar and being harassed by Hoid, who catches her up on what's going on.

 

Harass, flirt, and or memeticly reshape into a living weapon aimed at one of his enemies. Like the Doctor it can be difficult tell what Hoid is doing in any given cionversation.

[asterion137]

So, anyone want to ship Khriss and Jasnah? Khrisnah?

ewww...Isn't Khriss really old?

[hoidhunter]

If I remember correctly...a while ago, someone asked Brandon why he hasn't written and LGBT characters...he replied that he did, but it wasn't blatantly obvious...a certain ill tempered gunsmith. (this was back when AoL had just come out).

 

While I realize that this statement alone does not mean that no other characters will ever be LGBT, it was the perfect opportunity for Brandon to address Jasnah's sexuality at that time, and he did not.

 

However, I find it funny that people on this thread have pointed out that the stereotype of "strong willed, grouchy, independent woman must be gay" is a little messed up (and I agree) However...the character in a different story that has been confirmed as being gay is a strong willed, grouchy, independent woman...HA.

 

All that being said...the part of this conversation that has turned toward who should Jasnah get together with is focusing on who is the most like her...but...I personally find that the old adage of opposites attract to be true in many successful couples that I have know.  In truth, my wife and I have been together for almost 10 years now...and we are very different people.  That's not to say that only people who are completely different can possibly stay together, and certainly, having some common interests really helps to form a bond in the first place, but being with someone who you agree with 100% of the time is boring.  To me, part of what makes a good romantic pair, is that your personalities compliment one another.  My wife is extremely detail oriented, plans things in advance (you should see the checklists!), she is very assertive and outspoken.  For these reasons, a lot of people don't realize that she is also extremely sensitive, cares a lot about what other people think about her, she also cares a lot about other people, even strangers (I once saw her give a homeless man the socks off of her feet).  I on the other hand, am a habitual procrastinator, believe in prioritizing my attention for the big issues, generally keep to myself when I'm around strangers and prefer to use as few words to express my point as possible.  I generally couldn't care less what people think about me, especially if I don't know or don't like you, and while I am far from selfish or apathetic, I feel very strongly that taking care of yourself puts you in a better position to help other people in the long run.

 

All that being said, we make a great couple, not because we are so similar that we get along, but because our differences compliment and compensate for each other.

 

So...I guess what I'm saying is...if I were to pair Jasnah with someone...(I'm with Patrick Star) Lopen for sure.  Jasnah is a very serious, severe woman...Lopen would help her to lighten up and laugh from time to time.  He has zero drive or interest in personal accomplishment (aside from glowing) , leaving Jasnah completely unthreatened and with no desire to compete.  He would be totally different from the noble types that she generally seems to find so off-putting.  He is an almost insufferable optimist that Jasnah (who is burdened by fear and responsibility) would probably find inspiring.  And he's got a big warm family that would welcome her with open arms, regardless of her dubious reputation among her fellow nobles.

Edited May 29, 2016 by hoidhunter

[Argel]

ewww...Isn't Khriss really old?

 

Ignoring that I wasn't really being serious, why would age matter to a scholar? Also, a couple million years from now, Khriss would just be slightly older....

 

Now that I think about it, we really don't know how old the worldhoppers are, because they could be jumping forward in time/time is different in the CR.

 

 

So...I guess what I'm saying is...if I were to pair Jasnah with someone...(I'm with Patrick Star) Lopen for sure. 

 

I don't know, I think he could be too different. That  zero initiative could be too much to overcome. Also, I think intelligence/scholarly pursuits will be common ground. From that perspective, Kaladin could be a good fit (doctor), though I would be surprised if that happened. Though if Adolin and Shallan stay together, that would leave Kaladin available. And even thoguh she wasn't at the shattered plains, she would learn about all of the things Kaladin has done protecting her family, including saving Dalinar three times (from Sadeas trap and the two times Szeth attacked), helping Adolin out in the arena, and protecting Elohkar. Those could be huge points to her.

 Helping Shallan out in the chasms could be considered a plus. I want to see her and Kal talk about it, just so Jasnah could ask him how Shallan's wit didn't drive him insane.....