Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

[Hellscythe he/him]

1. Mocked and sarcastically remarked against not only the diagrammists but anyone who has questioned you.

2. Tried shifting suspicion/votes to inactive's who haven't been here.

3. Role claimed only after you were supposedly attacked then made a personal statement against Advantos saying he votes for people who's roles aren't "useful enough." I'm not sure I want to agree with that but, the only viable reason I see your role being useful to the village is when only your role is unknown, and you can protect yourself while advocating for someone else. Now that your role is supposedly know, instead of using you we could use protection roles elsewhere (scholars) and get actual information.

What I said still stands, If you can argue and defend my accusations to you in my original post I will still retract my vote! 

1) I already apologized for responding to Mail's taunts from yesterday. It was my bad. I'm gonna taunt the Diagrammists all day though. 

 

2) Yes. I have no other solid suspicions (other than you now like I said before) so the best choice is to kill an inactive. If towards the end of the game it's 10 vs. 5 with the innocents having 10 and 5 of those 10 people are inactive because nobody wanted to lynch an inactive and the Diagrammists have no reason to kill the inactives I've already lost the game and that's not something I want to live to see.

 

3) Like I said to Advantos, I had planned on Role Claiming today regardless of what Stink said, Stink just hastened the claim. Adavantos did the exact same thing last game. You weren't here so I'm not blaming you for not understanding. But essentially he thought Creccio was innocent but put the killing vote on him anyways because his role "wasn't good enough for the town" as all he could do was Role block. Also It's not like I could just NOT respond to Stink's claim that I was an Explorer/Elsecaller. Obviously my role is better if it isn't known, but it's better than being lynched/attacked for not role claiming when your role has already been stated by someone else. I've already said my piece on Scholars.

 

Obviously it's too late to not be lynched but this is something real to defend against I suppose.

 

Also no. Mail's vote is still on me.

Now it's not.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Hellscythe, posts like that are why you get votes. Once you decide that someone must be evil, you say everything as if that's a foregone conclusion. But it's not. Not whatsoever. Just because you suspect someone doesn't mean they're always actually evil.

I wasn't trying to get you angry so that you'd rack up votes, I was trying to have a debate with you, but you instead wanted a full on mud slinging contest. I don't think you being cocky or rude had anything to do with my posts, frankly, I don't think it has anything to do with your alignment(which is why I've changed my vote), at this point. But your attitude and tone are what are getting you killed right now, so I would advise you to take note of that.

(And I did green out my vote of you now. Sorry, I forgot about the original vote.)

Edited December 17, 2015 by Mailliw73

[Tony Shark he/him]

1) I already apologized for responding to Mail's taunts from yesterday. It was my bad. I'm gonna taunt the Diagrammists all day though. 

 

2) Yes. I have no other solid suspicions (other than you now like I said before) so the best choice is to kill an inactive. If towards the end of the game it's 10 vs. 5 with the innocents having 10 and 5 of those 10 people are inactive because nobody wanted to lynch an inactive and the Diagrammists have no reason to kill the inactives I've already lost the game and that's not something I want to live to see.

 

3) Like I said to Advantos, I had planned on Role Claiming today regardless of what Stink said, Stink just hastened the claim. Adavantos did the exact same thing last game. You weren't here so I'm not blaming you for not understanding. But essentially he thought Creccio was innocent but put the killing vote on him anyways because his role "wasn't good enough for the town" as all he could do was Role block. Also It's not like I could just NOT respond to Stink's claim that I was an Explorer/Elsecaller. Obviously my role is better if it isn't known, but it's better than being lynched/attacked for not role claiming when your role has already been stated by someone else. I've already said my piece on Scholars.

 

Obviously it's too late to not be lynched but this is something real to defend against I suppose.

 

Also no. Mail's vote is still on me.

 

Thank you Hellscythe! I as trying to defend you, I didn't mean to apply so much pressure, I hoped to create a circumstance where you could easily defend yourself but I assume you felt attacked. That was not my intention and I apologize!

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Kynedath, the only error I could see is that you counted Sart's vote against Bort, which is no longer in play due to the determination by the GMs to follow through with his lynch. @Hellscythe, I ask that you try to look at this situation without emotion. At this point in the cycle it's either Venture or you; a claimed Runner and a "confirmed" Explorer/Elsecaller. Whereas Venture has only posted once, you have been interacting with a wide variety of players since Day 1. While we can gain an equal information from the lynch results regardless of who the lynchee is, with you we have actual posts we can analyze to find further leads. Additionally, I find it very suspicious that anyone is voting for Venture at this point unless they believe it could be a WGG. If it wasn't a WGG then he is a confirmed Good Runner. If it was then he is a confirmed Evil "Runner". And throughout the course of the cycle it seems most of us have decided it to be the former; so why are we thinking about killing a likely innocent over a potential evil? Also, in regards to my earlier comment about Explorer not being useful; people are right, self protective roles are helpful, but only if the eliminators don't know it. Now that they know what role he is they have no reason to target him because they know he's not someone who can do significant amounts of damage to them. Given the nature of the role as well it's logical that he could be a Diagrammist. As stated earlier, it seems that he's only using specific words from the GM to fit his agenda, and that's something I don't like. Whether he is revealed innocent or guilty, we have a rather large source for discussion for the next cycle of two. If the former, it's likely there is a Diagrammist among the votes on Venture, and if the latter the opposite is likely true.

 

(5) Venture Mistborn: Kipper, Araris Valerian, Kynedath, Mailliw, Hellscythe

(1) Bort: Starry Smite

(2) Paranoid King: Aonar Faileas, DeathClutch19

(5) Hellscythe: Zas678, Clanky, Ookla, Adavantos, Feligion

(1) Orlok: Bort

 

EDITED BECAUSE TONY NINJA'D ME WITH A RETRACTION

 

Also, I want to clarify something.

 

 

3) Like I said to Advantos, I had planned on Role Claiming today regardless of what Stink said, Stink just hastened the claim. Adavantos did the exact same thing last game. You weren't here so I'm not blaming you for not understanding. But essentially he thought Creccio was innocent but put the killing vote on him anyways because his role "wasn't good enough for the town" as all he could do was Role block. Also It's not like I could just NOT respond to Stink's claim that I was an Explorer/Elsecaller. Obviously my role is better if it isn't known, but it's better than being lynched/attacked for not role claiming when your role has already been stated by someone else. I've already said my piece on Scholars.

 

I did not put the killing vote because his role wasn't good enough for the town. I put it on him because I suspected of his connection to the Murder of Mailliw and his subsequent reaction to have the vote swung onto him, in addition to the fact that I suspected the traitors had a BioChromancer and that it was worth confirming whether he was theirs or not.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Adavantos

[little wilson she/her]

10 minutes left!

 

Also, there won't be a writeup immediately after the rollover. I'm at work, and need to actually work and Kas has school/job stuff early in the morning, so he's asleep. I'll get the results posted and PMs sent out and we'll edit the writeup in later, when both of us have time to work on it.

[STINK he/him]

STINK continues to hate the meta-talk...

[little wilson she/her]

Cycle's over!

[little wilson she/her]

Cycle Three: The Jedi Sleepeth

Mace Windu waited, on the highest level of the tower. The fabrial lift had saved him the need to climb the hundred steps to the very top, beneath the open skies. He wondered if it had been worth it. Perhaps he needed the time, alone with his own thoughts.

Eventually, he saw the other.

The hooded figure made his way to the top of the tower, taking his own time, negotiating the steps that Mace had eschewed.

“You’re late,” Mace stated.

“Things to do,” the figure said, calmly. “Feeding an entire city isn’t an easy task, you know, especially when most of them are soldiers. If there’s anything soldiers hate, it’s having food that tastes like a chull crapped in them. And then the next thing you know, you’re out of a job.”

Mace waited.

“And that’s not to mention our supply issues. Someone keeps going through our stores and putting the food elsewhere. If we don’t get the issues with the supplies fixed, people in Urithiru are going to have a very hungry time, the next few months.” The cook shook his head. “Well, then. What did you want?”

“Information,” Mace said. “You work in the kitchens. You hear everything.”

The cook laughed. “That’s what everyone says. ‘You work in the kitchens. You hear everything.’ If I had a broam for every time someone said that, I wouldn’t need a job here, you know?”

“Is it untrue?”

The cook considered that. “Depends,” he said, at last.

“On?”

The cook smiled. “Who you’re working for.”

Mace said, “You think I’d tell you?”

“Why not?” The cook shrugged. “It’s the nature of an exchange: you tell me something I want to know, and I tell you something you want to know. You think I’d tell just anybody what I overhear? We all have superiors, you know? Besides, I hear no one’s seen you around much in Urithiru.”

“It’s a big city.”

“Oh, it is,” the cook said. “But remember: I see everybody. And I haven’t seen you, much.”

Mace put a hand to his sword-hilt. “Is this how it’s going to be?”

The cook said, deadpan, “Sorry. Next time, I’ll remember to bring flowers and a box of candy.”

Mace drew his sword. The strange metal gleamed a dark purple in the sunlight. He lunged, the sword arcing up to behead the cook.

The cook dodged, whipping out a large cleaver, and stepping in to parry the blow.

“You know,” the cook said. “If you really want to kill a man, don’t let him prepare you a meal first.”

Mace’s vision blurred, and the blade in his hand wavered. The cook moved, pressing him back with a series of skillful slashes, and for all Mace knew that he should have the advantage with his sword, his brain seemed to be incapable of communicating the correct action to his hands and legs.

The day’s meal. He remembered: a strange aftertaste in the wine.

He staggered, suddenly, losing his balance. Somehow, he’d wandered or been pushed back to the edge of the tower.

Behind him, the drop gaped.

The cleaver buried itself in his throat.

Mace Windu fell.

-

His father, or so Baheal knew, had an Awakened halberd: a weapon that was dangerous even in the right hands, and that trolled its wielder mercilessly. On Roshar, however, he’d be so lucky as to even get his hands on a Shardblade.

Instead, he carefully palmed Silence and peered around the corner. The dagger was not Awakened, but Baheal had named it anyway, probably because he was a persistent optimist. He’d needed a weapon, in any case. The faction struggles in Urithiru were getting pretty dangerous, and Baheal was slightly surprised that the Blackthorn appeared to be doing nothing at all about the corpses turning up with astounding regularity.

Or perhaps he had something else on his mind.

Though what that something else was, Baheal couldn’t quite be sure.

“Boo,” said the figure on the other side of the corner.

“You!” Baheal managed, just before he heard a whisper of motion originating from behind him and glanced down to see a Shardblade erupt, point-first, from his chest.

“Oh, that’s right,” said the figure. “You’ll have to forgive my colleague. This Shardblade thing’s still very new, and as you can tell, putting the Blade right through the base of the victim’s spine takes some work. You understand, don’t you? We’re doing this for the greater good.”

Baheal couldn’t breathe, couldn’t move.

“He’s dead anyway,” came another voice.

“Take the eyes,” the figure said. “We want them being unsure whether it’s a Shardblade or a regular weapon. Last thing we need is a search of all the Shardbearers in Urithiru.”

He felt the point of a dagger being inserted into the socket of his left eye.

Baheal would’ve screamed, if he could, but then, someone snapped his neck and he fell, mercifully, into death.

Silence fell; from his slackening fingers.

-

Agrigar Leiken opened his eyes.

“Don’t try to speak,” said someone unfamiliar. He tried to turn his head, and managed to do so, tracking the speaker. He felt...strangely weak.

Still, he ignored the surgeon’s advice. “What...happened?” His throat felt as though someone seared it with red-hot coals.

“Someone,” the light-eyed surgeon said, dryly, “Really wants you dead. Congratulations. You survived ashroot poisoning, and there’s few who can say that. You’ve got a remarkable constitution, at the very least. Unlike the other victim.”

“Who?” croaked Agrigar.

“Hellscythe,” the surgeon said, and made a face. “With a name like that, I’m surprised they even let him into Urithiru. Sounds more like an assassin’s usename than a soldier, but then, I’m a surgeon, what would I know about who gets let into Urithiru?”

“What--”

“Stop talking,” said the surgeon irritably. “And drink this.” He passed Agrigar a cup of warm soup. “Slowly.”

Agrigar tried to sit up, struggled, and finally, the surgeon helped him up and propped him against the pillows. “What...in?”

“It’s a nourishing soup from the kitchens,” the surgeon said. “And I’ve added some herbs to counteract the lingering effects of ashroot, or you’d be feeling much worse.”

“Hellscythe?”

“Why do you care?” the surgeon wanted to know. “Ah, forget it. He was dosed with nerverot. He got into a fight--which was very, very clever on the part of whoever wanted him dead. Nerverot works fast the moment the victim goes into a rage; he started attacking everyone he saw. Of course, nerverot kills slowly, so he would’ve been dead, anyhow, but that attracted a mob who decided he was too far gone and had to be put down. And so he was. As I said, you’re very lucky: whoever poisoned you ‘only’ went for ashroot, if being poisoned by ashroot can ever be considered a trivial thing.”

“Thanks,” Agrigar croaked, and carefully began drinking his soup.

---

Hellscythe (5) : Seixa, Agrigar Leiken, Gold Frank, Cla, Zas
Maximilianos Sebarial (4) : Aleral, Krippe, Hellscythe, Deadeye
Slalassalas (3) : Malarn, Arran Faenel, Moros
Locke Tekiel (1) : Bort
Bort (1) : Starri

Hellscythe was poisoned and then lynched!
Agrigar Leiken (Adavantos) was poisoned and saved!
Baheal Edr (Haelbarde) was killed by the Diagrammists!
Mace Windu was poisoned!

 

 

Player List

 

 

1. Seixa (Phattemer): A man who believes he's a Skybreaker Squire
2. John Doe (Stink): A man who thinks he's a fish
3. Locke Tekiel (Orlok)
4. Agrigar Leiken (Adavantos)
5. Aleral (Araris)
6. Kholak Bagar (Honey Badger)
7. Alycia Kavdar (RippleGylf)
8. Walter Kysley (polking): an Azish soldier
9. Krippe (Kipper): a Urithiru postmaster
10. Malarn (Maill): a man who stinks
11. Sheon Idris (Seonid): the late King of Arelon, seeking vengeance on Mr T and his adherents. I pity da fool.
12. Baheal Edr (Hael): son of the late Ableah
13. Yallah (Tony Shark)
14. Arran Faenel (Aonar)
15. Hellscythe (Hellscythe)
16. Deadeye (Kynedath)
17. Slalassalas (Paranoid King): swordfighter who's "defeated" many Horneaters
18. Kael of the Forge (Elkanah): an eager emigrant
19. Frank "Gold Frank" Au Faliu (Feligon): a pirate with an nonflying(?) pirate ship, looking for his brother
20. Starri (Starry Smite): an overlooked brightlady
21. Citona Vinid (Shallan)
22. Arina (Arraenae)
23. Torren (Twei): an ex-Skybreaker Radiant, ditched by his spren 
24. Inor Haze (Creccio)
25. Maximilianos Sebarial (Venture)
26. Lopen (The Mighty Lopen)
27. Jain (Lightsworn Panda): a walking, talking panda
28. Moros (DeathClutch)
29. Edurams (Sart)
30. Bort (Bort)
31. Mace (Mace Windu): a strange man who wields a purple sword-thing
32. Ashei Ghetti (Burnt Spaghetti)
33. Cla (Clanky)
34. Elba (Elbereth)
35. Zas (Zas): a creative shoemaker seeking flesh for new shoes
36. Lorna (Alvron): a huntress

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Alvron

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

I was not aware of the high number of votes on me. May I ask why?

[Clanky he/him]

Well you claimed an important role, then disappeared all cycle. You were attacked by the Diagrammists and saved leading people to think WGG and have basically been inactive ever since.

 

Why did you decide to reveal your role in the first place?

[Hellscythe he/him]

Despite being poisoned, possibly twice... the poisoned food tasted delicious. Thanks Cook.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Elkanah he/him]

Wow, three people were poisoned again? Why are the cooks so intent on killing people this game? I'm willing to guess that Stink's cook killed to prove their role. That may have been the Mace Windu cook. I'll bet the evil cook went after Adavantos. Which could mean whatever cook was upset at Maili last cycle might have gone after Hellscythe for the same reasons.

Also I'm just about done with finals so I'll be able to contribute more now.

I think something that bears going through is the four lynch trains from yesterday. I'll bet we can find a diagrammist or two lurking in the votes.

Edit: 3 ninjas

Edited December 17, 2015 by Elkanah

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

Well you claimed an important role, then disappeared all cycle. You were attacked by the Diagrammists and saved leading people to think WGG and have basically been inactive ever since.

 

Why did you decide to reveal your role in the first place?

To shove it in the face of the Diagrammists.

[Kynedath]

Elkanah where were you last cycle? You promised that you would be more active and I didn't see a single post of yours.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Kynedath

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Wilson/Kasimir: Are you including all attempts on a players life regardless of if they are protected, or only if one of the attacks is blocked?

[little wilson she/her]

@Wilson/Kasimir: Are you including all attempts on a players life regardless of if they are protected, or only if one of the attacks is blocked?

 

All attempts on people who can be attacked. This excludes Explorers who are exploring and Elsecallers using Transportation since the killer cannot find them.

[Amanuensis he/him]

All attempts on people who can be attacked. This excludes Explorers who are exploring and Elsecallers using Transportation since the killer cannot find them.

 

Okay so, in other words Hellscythe was not protected via Surgeon or Regrowth. Thanks.

[Guest]

I have a bond with Adavantos for this cycle, fyi. Choose wisely, my loyal friend.

Paranoid King, your read on Sart?

[Elkanah he/him]

You're right, Kynedath. I had expected to be active yesterday, and I don't have an adequate excuse. Partially, I didn't want to get involved in the shouting match that was going on, and partially I didn't have anything to add.

I suppose most notably from yesterday my opinions would have been that I doubt the attack on Venture was a WGG. Also, I'm more interested in the people who voted for PK after it became a train than in the three who were to be lynched.

I apologize for my inactivity. Although I do like to think more and talk less, I plan on helping the people of Urithiru in any way I can. And with as little information as we have that means posting.

Edit: accidentally used the wrong name for the wgg.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Elkanah

[Amanuensis he/him]

Wow, three people were poisoned again? Why are the cooks so intent on killing people this game? I'm willing to guess that Stink's cook killed to prove their role. That may have been the Mace Windu cook. I'll bet the evil cook went after Adavantos. Which could mean whatever cook was upset at Maili last cycle might have gone after Hellscythe for the same reasons.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Given that no one really expressed suspicions of me last cycle I suppose that's possible, but it could also be a village Cook who believes I'm a Diagrammist for one reason or another (there's tons of things I've done that can be skewed either way) and decided it would be better to just kill me without outing themselves. But even if it was the Diagrammist cook that went after me, I should be the one to say that doesn't mean I'm not evil. With all the talk about a WGG last cycle and a statement that I made about the subject (will quote after this paragraph), this could have been a plot to gain trust. That being said I know it wasn't. Though the fact that I was protected is concerning for me. While I have a couple PMs none of them have claimed a protective role, let alone that they would look out for me. Considering we have two Runners and a Scholar claim and that I'm pretty sure the Diagrammists have either a Surgeon or an Edgedancer, that means either one of them decided not to protect Stink, Venture or PK in favor of me or the Diagrammists are trying to play some elaborate mind game with everyone by both attacking me and protecting me to make me look bad. I would not be surprised if they were trying to use my own words against me. For reference, here is what I'm referring to.

 

And before someone says there was a WGG last game , that doesn't mean it's less likely in this game. Because so many people think that as soon as a WGG occurs that it rules it out for the next few games, I would do it just to teach them not to make assumptions like that. Hell, I would literally do it every game until people started expecting it and then stop so that next time another situation comes up that seems like it could be a WGG but isn't they would lynch the survivor while we target others.

 

So yeah, I'm not entirely sure what to think right now. @PK, please keep the results of your scan to yourself until we have a player claim to be an intermediary with another Scholar, that way we can test if you are telling the truth. Once an intermediary claims to know the role and alignment of Sart you can go ahead and post your results.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Adavantos

[RippleGylf she/her]

I honestly don't understand the poisoning of Mace Windu. (I assume that's what the cycle title is referring to.) He's a fairly new player who hasn't been very suspicious, as far as I know, so it seems to be just a random kill. Randomly killing new players, especially ones that are actually active, is not a good idea.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I honestly don't understand the poisoning of Mace Windu. (I assume that's what the cycle title is referring to.) He's a fairly new player who hasn't been very suspicious, as far as I know, so it seems to be just a random kill. Randomly killing new players, especially ones that are actually active, is not a good idea.

 

If the Cook is a recurring player, then judging by the quality of character they've displayed in doing this, I would bet that the Cook who killed Mace Windu is the same who attacked Mailliw the first Cycle. Otherwise it's possible that they are a new player and are killing people based off of personal suspicions alone disregarding things like how much experience a player has or if they were killed the N1 the last two games. That being said, I'm also willing to bet that the same Cook who attacked Hellscythe C1 is the one who did again this turn, due to Stink's claim of how they were convinced he was a Diagrammist Elsecaller. It's possible they saw that the lynch was a tie and put it in or expected him to be protected by one of their own.

[Kynedath]

You're right, Kynedath. I had expected to be active yesterday, and I don't have an adequate excuse. Partially, I didn't want to get involved in the shouting match that was going on, and partially I didn't have anything to add.

I suppose most notably from yesterday my opinions would have been that I doubt the attack on Venture was a WGG. Also, I'm more interested in the people who voted for PK after it became a train than in the three who were to be lynched.

I apologize for my inactivity. Although I do like to think more and talk less, I plan on helping the people of Urithiru in any way I can. And with as little information as we have that means posting.

Edit: accidentally used the wrong name for the wgg.

If you can't provide a reason for inactivity, then my vote will stay on you. If you didn't want to get involved, then you still could have talked about another subject and help shed some light on our situation. You obviously know that we need more info and yet you don't want to go out and find the information. As I see it, you have lied and you almost admit that you are trying to pull strings from the background ("think more talk less").

Why the interest in PK? You expressed no opinion during the original argument and the lynch is much more prominent at this point. Besides, as far as I know, Paranoid King was one of the three in risk of being lynched.

 

After checking Ada's vote tally at the end of the last cycle, Mail's vote was changed from Venture to PK, tipping the vote and lynching Hellscythe instead of a tie. Either someody was protecting Venture or else someone had it out for HS. The latter means that the ardent/lightweaver was not in contact with the cook, which means that probably only one of them were a diagrammist as they wouold have communicated on the dia doc. The former either means that Venture is an ardent/lightweaver and didn't want to die or else a Venture sympathizer (maybe diagrammist) protected him. I am currently leaning to anger towards HS as public opinion was very negative towards him.

 

I honestly don't understand the poisoning of Mace Windu. (I assume that's what the cycle title is referring to.) He's a fairly new player who hasn't been very suspicious, as far as I know, so it seems to be just a random kill. Randomly killing new players, especially ones that are actually active, is not a good idea.

Remember that Mace Windu only posted once on his own and I had to call him out for him to talk more.

 

 

To shove it in the face of the Diagrammists.

Do you want to die?

[Paranoid King he/him]

I'm a little interested in seeing the write-up wherein someone is poisoned, and while they are in their death throes, the angry mob comes and lynches them.

 

So yeah, I'm not entirely sure what to think right now. @PK, please keep the results of your scan to yourself until we have a player claim to be an intermediary with another Scholar, that way we can test if you are telling the truth. Once an intermediary claims to know the role and alignment of Sart you can go ahead and post your results.

As you wish.

[Clanky he/him]

I'm a little interested in seeing the write-up wherein someone is poisoned, and while they are in their death throes, the angry mob comes and lynches them.

 

Perhaps he is arrested and given the choice for a last meal before his execution and the Cook poisons that? Either way it will end up interesting

 

 

After checking Ada's vote tally at the end of the last cycle, Mail's vote was changed from Venture to PK, tipping the vote and lynching Hellscythe instead of a tie. Either someody was protecting Venture or else someone had it out for HS. The latter means that the ardent/lightweaver was not in contact with the cook, which means that probably only one of them were a diagrammist as they wouold have communicated on the dia doc. The former either means that Venture is an ardent/lightweaver and didn't want to die or else a Venture sympathizer (maybe diagrammist) protected him. I am currently leaning to anger towards HS as public opinion was very negative towards him.

 

 

If they really wanted to kill HS then why wouldn't they have moved the vote from Venture to HS instead of PK?