Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

[Mailliw73]

Yes.

Wilson didn't stick with the first roll because there weren't enough Explorers on the Diagrammist team.

That's exactly it.

You're all genius'.

You got me, I'm a Diagrammist.

How did you know all along?

Gee golly I've been outsmarted.

*Geniuses

 

Enough explorers? What are you talking about? It's just a decent role for them to have. We aren't saying that they need more, just that it's a very likely role for them to have.

[Hellscythe]

Thank you Kynedath.

[Kynedath]

I'm not quite defending you at this point. I'm just laying down the information for everyone to use. I'm still a bit suspicious at your behavior too.

[Hellscythe]

At least your reason for voting for me will have some logic behind it. I'm ok with being voted for so long as you have an actual reason.

 

edit: Honestly with how much attention I brought to myself day one I'm surprised people are suspicious of me at all. This surprise is half due to the fact that I haven't been given a sound reason for being voted for.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Kynedath]

I am not voting for you HS. I'm voting for PK. 

 

This will probably be my last post for the night. I have to go to. I'll try to comment on this tomorrow morning.

[Mailliw73]

At least your reason for voting for me will have some logic behind it. I'm ok with being voted for so long as you have an actual reason.

I don't think anyone is voting for you solely because of your role.

[DeathClutch19]

I would like to place a vote on Paranoid King, the reason for this is that he seems suspicious to me. His logic for voting for Sart previously makes no sense to me and seems like a Diagrammist trying to draw attention to other players. Also it seems he is dodging questions from others and not responding. Even though a fair amount of votes has piled up on him I still feel  he is the most suspicious of all the players currently.

[Clanky]

At least your reason for voting for me will have some logic behind it. I'm ok with being voted for so long as you have an actual reason.

 

edit: Honestly with how much attention I brought to myself day one I'm surprised people are suspicious of me at all. This surprise is half due to the fact that I haven't been given a sound reason for being voted for.

 

Well even if we didn't have sound reason before I think that manipulating Word of GM to make your point is some pretty sound reasoning. But I suppose you have good reason for misquoting Wilson so I would be happy to hear your defense. 

[twelfthrootoftwo]

We seem to have three candidates for the lynch at this stage:

 

Venture Mistborn

Claimed Runner in their only post last cycle. Was promptly both attacked and protected. Suspicion as to whether or not this is a WGG.

 

Whether or not this was a WGG, it's likely Venture is in fact a Runner. If not a WGG, it was a play to get protection (important role) or foster communication (Runner). Venture isn't the type to fakeclaim to get protection - they aren't often attacked early in the game, so the Runner version is more probably. And a WGG at this stage of the game is a long-term play; since Runners have to reveal themselves to use their PMs, it's not possible for the claim to stand up for long if it was false.

 

At this stage, I can't gauge whether this was a WGG or not. I think we'll either have to watch what Venture does in their PMs or LAFOE.

 

Paranoid King

Provided the finishing vote on Sart, which a lot of people took issue with. Convinced Venture was a WGG. Aside from that, and his extensive defences, hasn't said a whole lot.

 

His major argument for the vote on Sart is that "we need bodies". I disagree strongly. If there's actual suspicion to go with the vote, then sure. If there was enough discussion around them to generate useful information when we know their alignment, then sure. But neither of those were the case: the vote was purely a tiebreaker, and Sart made exactly one post that cycle.

 

I'm suspicious. And the adamance on Venture being a WGG doesn't help either.

 

Hellscythe

Was vocal last cycle; STINK claims he dodged a Cook poisoning. Convinced Venture wasn't a WGG.

 

If I understand correctly, most of the votes on Hellscythe come from the tone of his reactions to the Cook/Elsecaller suspicion and his arguments about Venture. IMO, while I would be suspicious of that tone coming from most players, Hellscythe is very much a member of the Assuredness Movement of rhetorical theory. It's nothing unusual from him. I'm wary, but not to the extent that most players seem to be.

 

 

My vote for now will be on Paranoid King.

edit: colour

Edited December 17, 2015 by twelfthrootoftwo

[Amanuensis]

 

(5) Paranoid: Adavantos (1), Kynedath (1), Aonar (1), Deathclutch (1), Twei (1),

(4) Hellscythe: Mailliw (1), Zas (1), Clanky (2), phattmer (1), 

(3) Venture: Kipper (1), Paranoid (1), Araris (1), 

(2) Starry: Hellscythe (1), Bort (1), 

(1) Bort: Starry (1), 

(1) Mailliw: Ripple (1), 

 

As it stands, this is the current vote tally, counting only player's original red posts. Personally I am more suspicious of PK than Hellscythe, but I am very concerned at this point that I instigated a lynch on the wrong player and now a Diagrammist or two is coming along for the ride. That being said, him and Hellscythe are both on the top of my maybe evil list, and I would not be opposed to a Cook or two going after Hellscythe "again" tonight, as that means we could get both of their alignments revealed simultaneously and have a lot more info to work with.

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Adavantos

[Clanky]

 

 

(5) Paranoid: Adavantos (1), Kynedath (1), Aonar (1), Deathclutch (1), Twei (1),

(4) Hellscythe: Mailliw (1), Zas (1), Clanky (2), phattmer (1), 

(3) Venture: Kipper (1), Paranoid (1), Araris (1), 

(2) Starry: Hellscythe (1), Bort (1), 

(1) Bort: Starry (1), 

(1) Mailliw: Ripple (1), 

 

As it stands, this is the current vote tally, counting only player's original red posts. Personally I am more suspicious of PK than Hellscythe, but I am very concerned at this point that I instigated a lynch on the wrong player and now a Diagrammist or two is coming along for the ride. That being said, him and Hellscythe are both on the top of my maybe evil list, and I would not be opposed to a Cook or two going after Hellscythe "again" tonight, as that means we could get both of their alignments revealed simultaneously and have a lot more info to work with.

 

 

 

Has anyone forgotten to green an earlier vote? If so it would be nice if you and others doing vote tallies could include that so people can fix their mistakes (if it really was a mistake).

[RippleGylf]

Sorry, need to green my original vote... fixing right now.

[Hellscythe]

Thank you for the vote tally. I don't think my vote is doing any good on Starry Smite so I'll go with the three candidates. I'm obviously not going to vote for myself, and I've looked through the evidence on PK and it isn't damning enough to me. Venture however is on the same level of inactivity as Starry Smite and just as suspicious to me as PK. While I (as I said before) am not convinced that it was a WGG in any way because I would've protected him had I been a surgeon, it's entirely possible. It's just not MORE possible than anyone else JUST because it was Venture.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[RippleGylf]

In general, I don't like lynch trains as they more often than not help the eliminators. So my vote will be on no one at the moment, because I honestly don't have any good suspicions.

[Paranoid King]

So I felt like I needed to kill someone on D1. In part, this was because I was used to advocating for a D1 Lynch, and I've never played a game where all actions happen on the same cycle before. The other part was because I need to use my powers. There, I've said it. I'm a scholar who needs dead folks to investigate, and I was bored. Please don't kill me, I feel like I have a role that is essential for winning this game. If you need confirmation, I can scan someone this cycle and reveal who I scanned in the thread next cycle.

I've also realized why it's very unlikely that Venture pulled a WGG. WGG's are to make people trust you, and Venture isn't active enough to use that trust. If the eliminators were to pull a WGG, I feel like they'd do it on someone more active than Venture.

[Alvron]

I want to hear from Alv, Hael, Burnt, Lopen, Jain, and Orlok. Why so quiet?

I was either working or sleeping and this is the first chance I've had to read the monster that has been spawned.

 

if you want to see the ingenuity of evil teams. Go read LG5's. I GMd that one and it had, IMO, one of the best Eliminator teams so far. That was Kas's first game and you can go read how clever he, Alv, and Awes were together in that game. 

#Ghostbloods4Life

 

 

Where's an Adavantos sum up post when you need one.    I've skimmed the thread and taken notes but really have nothing to add/say so don't expect much if anything from me today.

[Amanuensis]

I was either working or sleeping and this is the first chance I've had to read the monster that has been spawned.

 

#Ghostbloods4Life

 

 

Where's an Adavantos sum up post when you need one.    I've skimmed the thread and taken notes but really have nothing to add/say so don't expect much if anything from me today.

 

Sorry about that, Alv. I actually didn't even work on one this cycle because I've been trying to figure out a way to make them work without the links breaking. What I'm thinking about doing is not starting to work on the summaries until the cycle after, that way people can continue to navigate the game with ease after these threads are merged with the original and while I'm looking back at every post knowing what I do from the cycle's result, I might be able to find more information.

 

So I felt like I needed to kill someone on D1. In part, this was because I was used to advocating for a D1 Lynch, and I've never played a game where all actions happen on the same cycle before. The other part was because I need to use my powers. There, I've said it. I'm a scholar who needs dead folks to investigate, and I was bored. Please don't kill me, I feel like I have a role that is essential for winning this game. If you need confirmation, I can scan someone this cycle and reveal who I scanned in the thread next cycle.

I've also realized why it's very unlikely that Venture pulled a WGG. WGG's are to make people trust you, and Venture isn't active enough to use that trust. If the eliminators were to pull a WGG, I feel like they'd do it on someone more active than Venture.

 

I'm not entirely sure how to react to that. My gut tells me you're a Diagrammist just trying to claim a role we've already discussed is vital to the village in order to keep us from killing you. If you're not lying then you basically just begged the Diagrammists to come after you. I was hoping more people would give their opinions on a public Scholar reveal but few people have posted their thoughts and now it's too late. This is two cycles in a row now someone brings up a specific role revealing and someone goes ahead without actually confirming if that's what's best... I'm going to have to look back at your posts assuming you're a Scholar to make sure it matches up.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Adavantos

[Paranoid King]

If you're not lying then you basically just begged the Diagrammists to come after you.

Well, it's a choice between being killed by an angry mob while the eliminators kill someone else, or being focused on by the angry mob while the eliminators try to kill me. Because of how suspicious I've seemed, I don't think it's likely that anyone will protect me, but at least the eliminators will kill someone who has interacted a lot (and thus, can give a lot of info from their death,) rather than someone who doesn't give the villagers any info.

And, having said that, all bets are off.

[Hellscythe]

I agree with Paranoid King on Venture Mistborn. Can we get a new candidate up for the lynching? I don't like these three anymore. If PK were really a Diagrammist he'd do everything he could to get the person he just tried to kill, lynched not take his vote off them and give a reason as to why they're innocent. Especially since he's also in the running next to him for the lynch.

 

As much as I would love the other candidates to be lynched instead of me the other two candidates seem unlikely to be evil all of a sudden and I don't really want to die plus I know I'm not evil. 

 

How about polking or Honey Badger?

Who is with me! *raises fist of triumph*

We still have 10ish hours to fix our votes! We can do this town!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[Amanuensis]

Just so you know, PK, this doesn't mean you're cleared. Considering this game has no way to scan (living players) roles you could easily be lying about being a Scholar. I'm only retracting my vote now because of how essential Scholars are to this game; if you fail to prove your role I will be voting for you again, and if I die before then I ask that the village does in my stead. Unfortunately you're also in a situation where we need another Scholar to confirm you're telling the truth. I hope that another Scholar is paying attention and in contact with someone that they can trust in private already so that we can make this work.

 

So unless anyone has any better ideas, this is what I propose. PK, I want you to scan Sart over Arraenae because a confirmation about his alignment would benefit us more due to the number of people involved in his death opposed to a rogue Cook. That being said, if there is another Scholar out there in a position to communicate their results, scan Sart as well and disregard what I am about to say, that way you can help us confirm if he's lying or not next cycle. Because I believe that two Scholars is too few total, it's likely there are two on each team at least. Assuming this to be true, I ask that the SoH Scholars scan Sart and the GB Scholars scan Arraenae. That way we max out the information yield.

 

Now, tomorrow. The Secret Scholar who scans Sart needs to let a person in a PM know that they have his results and send it to them. The intermediary will then post in thread that the Secret Scholar has informed him of the results and that he will reveal them as soon as PK posts his. Once PK posts his results the intermediary can then confirm if he's telling the truth or deny it. If he's confirmed, then yay, we now have two Scholars who can feed information to the thread. If he's lying, then yay, we now have a confirmed Diagrammist in our midst and can get rid of him once and for all.

 

With that out of the way, I am placing a vote on Hellscythe for being the #2 on my maybe evil list. Unfortunately it is far past my bed time so I will have to post my reasoning in approximately 8 hours. But I assure you, my reasons for this vote are logical, even if ridden with gut feelings. Ultimately I would rather kill a "confirmed" Explorer/Elsecaller than a player whose role has not yet been confirmed, as they may be a Scholar themselves or something else that is actually useful to the village.

[Kipper]

I will likely not be on at countdown end, so once again, I'd like to reiterate:

Sons of Honor, Scan Sart. Ghostbloods, Scan Arrenae.

Village, you should have no reason to hide the bodies...

Scholars, use your best judgment on coming out to the thread. There are positives and negatives.

[Hellscythe]

Wow Ok Adavantos. Your role is useless to the town too! So take that. Although this should be expected as you have a habit of voting to lynch people because their roles "aren't useful enough to the village" (referring to you lynching Creccio when he was a Biochromancer because his role wasn't "useful enough") In the case that I do actually die I'm a GB ,Explorer , Regular, Town

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe

[TheMightyLopen]

Looking at the roles, I tend to agree that the eliminator team is going to be relatively small. There are a lot of roles which could do great harm in the hands of the eliminators, and the villagers are very ignorant and somewhat blindly flailing. I don't think they have a cook, though. That'd be too OP.

 

Regarding the Cooks: I think it's very possible that there is an eliminator cook. If I had to choose which one it was, I don't really know. I would say not no one. Possible, but definitely unlikely (unless that cook is inactive, which could happen on either side).

For Mail, I could see either side. On the one hand, I would say that the eliminators would advise their teammate not to target Maill because that doesn't seem fair. On the other hand, I could see them being all for it, because Maill is quite dangerous, after all.

If the person who Stink's in contact with is a Diagrammist, I would tend to believe that they didn't in fact attack Hellscythe, but it's still possible, I suppose.

Arrenae actually seems the most likely choice. She has been around, but she wasn't likely to be protected, nor a focus of discussion, and we could learn just about nothing from her death (just like Mail said he would do, above).

I put those parts in bold. 

 

So, Elbereth, what changed your mind so dramatically? You never give a reason for why you think either way. First you say it's because it's too powerful for the eliminators(not necessarily true), and then that last post happens.

 

@Mail, The amount of posts have been overwhelming me. I got behind early on and now I feel like I've been trying to catch up ever since. Like Alv, I've skimmed the thread, but don't have a whole lot to add right now. I'll go through it again and think about some topics and try to respond to them once I have something to say. I do have a few things to say right now though.

 

@Cooks, Please don't kill players based on little to no evidence, or based purely on faction. What if you randomly hit a scholar? Sure, Mail posted a list that turned out to be false, but that doesn't make him an eliminator. The kill on Arraenae seemed like a faction kill. I'm not sure about that, as I've yet to go through her posts, but if that is indeed the case, bad idea. If you're suspicious of someone, and they're on the other faction, sure, go vigilante style and wipe 'em out. But if you aren't particularly suspicious of anyone, it's fine to not kill someone you know....... (Of course, if either of them is an eliminator, then......great job!  )

 

About Elsecallers, since we know that there are indeed at least 2, then if we're really worried about the eliminators having 1 and changing the scans, we could ask the village Elsecaller to change someone's role and not their alignment, so we could have a chance to block an eliminator Elsecallers change of alignment through the coin flip by the GM's. This does mean that if there is 2(or 3) village Elsecallers and no eliminator EC's, it would leave them vulnerable if they both did it.

 

I really like PM's too!   (I had 35 different ones in LG15 after all!)

 

@Ada, I think Elsecallers and Explorers can be useful to the village. Protection roles are useful because they protect people. If a villager has a protection role that can only protect themselves, well that's a villager that's a whole lot harder to kill. Just because you think of protection roles like that as selfish roles, doesn't mean they're useless. Teams are made up of individuals, so to have even one of those individuals protected, you're helping your team. I do think that Scholars are more useful to the village than most other roles, but I think that every role can be beneficial to the village if used correctly.

 

I'll try to post some opinions on players later, hopefully, maybe. (Depends on if I want to sleep or not  )

[Tony Shark]

Nine Storming Pages? I was gone a day...

I agree that this many votes piling on you is suspicious, assuming you're not actually a Digrammist. And while I can understand some of the logic in your defense, overall it has not convinced me that I'm wrong about you. Maybe not all of my points are accurate, but I still can't help but feel that you're evil. That being said, consider this sentence right here a formal request that all players weigh in on what they think of PK. The more people who discuss him the better.

So I felt like I needed to kill someone on D1. In part, this was because I was used to advocating for a D1 Lynch, and I've never played a game where all actions happen on the same cycle before. The other part was because I need to use my powers. There, I've said it. I'm a scholar who needs dead folks to investigate, and I was bored. Please don't kill me, I feel like I have a role that is essential for winning this game. If you need confirmation, I can scan someone this cycle and reveal who I scanned in the thread next cycle.

Have we taken into account the diagrammist may have a scholar? Not that I'm trying to condemn PK. I realize the importance of your claimed role, and understand as it stands you need protection, but It hasn't lowered my suspicion towards you.
 

I agree with Paranoid King on Venture Mistborn. Can we get a new candidate up for the lynching? I don't like these three anymore. If PK were really a Diagrammist he'd do everything he could to get the person he just tried to kill, lynched not take his vote off them and give a reason as to why they're innocent. Especially since he's also in the running next to him for the lynch.

As much as I would love the other candidates to be lynched instead of me the other two candidates seem unlikely to be evil all of a sudden and I don't really want to die plus I know I'm not evil.

How about polking or Honey Badger?
Who is with me! *raises fist of triumph*
We still have 10ish hours to fix our votes! We can do this town!

Wow Ok Adavantos. Your role is useless to the town too! So take that. Although this should be expected as you have a habit of voting to lynch people because their roles "aren't useful enough to the village" (referring to you lynching Creccio when he was a Biochromancer because his role wasn't "useful enough") In the case that I do actually die I'm a GB ,Explorer , Regular, Town

Hellscythe I feel like instead of creating an adequate defense for yourself you've;
1. Mocked and sarcastically remarked against not only the diagrammists but anyone who has questioned you.
2. Tried shifting suspicion/votes to inactive's who haven't been here.
3. Role claimed only after you were supposedly attacked then made a personal statement against Advantos saying he votes for people who's roles aren't "useful enough." I'm not sure I want to agree with that but, the only viable reason I see your role being useful to the village is when only your role is unknown, and you can protect yourself while advocating for someone else. Now that your role is supposedly know, instead of using you we could use protection roles elsewhere (scholars) and get actual information.

My vote is purely affected by your posts alone. If you could procure a solid defense why you shouldn't be lynched I will retract my vote.

EDIT: Grammatical errors

Edited December 17, 2015 by Tony Shark

[Hellscythe]

I would "procure a solid defense" if someone would give me a valid reason as to why they think I should be lynched.

All I've gotten is
 

"Uhh well your role isn't useful enough"

"Uhh well on a scale of a 100 you're like a 78. No reason. Just a 78 cause I said so"

"Uhh well the evil team is more likely to have an Explorer because I say so"

"Uhh well you can't defend yourself against these indefensible accusations"

"Uhh well you're probably NOT the most likely candidate for a Cook even though you say you are therefore you must be bad"

Also that was the most obvious Diagrammist bandwagon Tony Shark.

If you're willing to look for something for me to defend myself against I'm all for it. But I have tried. It's not easy to find.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hellscythe