What's with all the Kaladin love?

[Stormgate he/him]

Perhaps he is almost meant to be uninteresting. The story has shifted from him, he's part of a larger whole. The Knights of the Final Desolation.

[Seerow]

Jordan understood this very, very well. Not every reader enjoyed Rand, had the story revolved closely on him, many would have stopped reading, but we had other characters to root for. Yes, I was annoyed by him, but I knew after his chapter I would get one revolving around a preferred character.

 

Brandon has yet to implement the concept on Stormlight. I have faith he will, but only book 3 will tell us if I am right or not. Book 3 is about when WoT started to fleshed out more other characters than Rand.

 

Let's not forget that for the first two books of WoT, Rand took up like 90% of the page count. It wasn't until later in the series that the other PoVs really came into prominence. So if SLA really is going to be compared to WoT on a book by book basis, it's already far more diverse PoV-wise, and we can only expect that to continue to grow.

[Mr Horrible]

Seeing Kaladin take all of the worst angsty, mopey, racist viewpoints from WoK and not just carry them over to WoR but magnify them so bloody much made many of his scenes a chore to read.  The duel was amazing; the chasm was perfection.  I can't think of any other time where I was reading Kaladin and happy/excited to see that it was him.  Instead, frequently, when I came to another Kaladin scene I decided it was time to sleep rather than staying up to read more.  If we have more of that Kaladin in Book 3, then I will be wanting to see even less of him--and I have no confidence that Kaladin has worked through his issues, because it seemed that he had come a long way towards doing just that in WoK, only to have them so much worse in WoR.  

 

I don't like reading about angsty people.  I don't like reading about mopey people.  I don't like reading about racists.  I don't enjoy plotlines that focus on people that are all of these things.  Or how being angsty and racist makes his life worse.  I don't care how realistic it may be, or how real a character it makes him--1000 pages of this is boring.  I was actively rooting for Rand al'Thor to die in the WoT series after Book 3 because of the same storming reasons.  

 

I know that my feeling is not shared by everyone, or even the majority.  But even as much as I dislike so much of what Kaladin was in WoR, he is a central character to the series.  He needs to be there.  There are plot lines that must be resolved, that make no sense for anyone else to resolve them.  It would actively harm the story drastically to remove him.  I don't want that.  Nobody that I'm aware of wants that.  We just want less of him.  Let him do what only he can do, and let others handle the rest. 

 

"Racist" eh? Yeah that's not a misnomer at all.

 

Hell if you wanted to talk about racial discrimination why on earth wouldn't you talk about the Parshendi? Even just talking about eye colour, the amount of passive discrimination is huge, I would have though you would be annoyed at most of the Alethi characters if reading about racists bother you, none of them share what is presumably your view (eye colour doesn't mean anything about who they are as a person).

 

If we go back to why people like Kaladin, from what I have seen is a lot of them like him specifically because of the reasons you don't (he's mopey and angsty), indeed a surprising amount seem to resonate with the mental illness aspect of Kaladin. Now I personally don't really care either way, as long as he doesn't venture into self pity too much it doesn't bother me (and if he wasn't angsty it wouldn't be believable).

[AerionBFII he/him]

I would like to apologize if i offended anybody. I swear that's not what i wanted at any point. So i'd just like to apologize if i trod on anybodies toes. 

 

I just want to point out though that i quite like an abundance of Kaladin, i like the fact that Brandon isn't intimidated to tackle writing a character who struggles with depression. I like his character arcs because they deal with a lot of important roles and morale dilemmas. I also want other characters to grow of course i do but i want to see Kaladin's the most and i have no qualms about saying that. I've been looking forward to Kal pulling a Shardblade on Roshone for 5 years haha.

[maxal she/her]

Let's not forget that for the first two books of WoT, Rand took up like 90% of the page count. It wasn't until later in the series that the other PoVs really came into prominence. So if SLA really is going to be compared to WoT on a book by book basis, it's already far more diverse PoV-wise, and we can only expect that to continue to grow.

 

Yes you are right. WoT started by being heavily focused on Rand and only grew richer as the other characters started earning their own story arc. I certainly hope SA will continue to diverse itself in POV time.

 

 

"Racist" eh? Yeah that's not a misnomer at all.

 

Hell if you wanted to talk about racial discrimination why on earth wouldn't you talk about the Parshendi? Even just talking about eye colour, the amount of passive discrimination is huge, I would have though you would be annoyed at most of the Alethi characters if reading about racists bother you, none of them share what is presumably your view (eye colour doesn't mean anything about who they are as a person).

 

If we go back to why people like Kaladin, from what I have seen is a lot of them like him specifically because of the reasons you don't (he's mopey and angsty), indeed a surprising amount seem to resonate with the mental illness aspect of Kaladin. Now I personally don't really care either way, as long as he doesn't venture into self pity too much it doesn't bother me (and if he wasn't angsty it wouldn't be believable).

 

This is rather aggressive now isn't it?

 

What kaellok refers to as racist is Kaladin prejudiced visions of the lighteyes. We understand he was betrayed by two supposedly honorable individuals who's eye color was light, but he then transposes this sentient to every single individual without allowing them the chance to prove their worth. He blatantly decides all lighteyes are pieces of scum based on his rather limited experience with two despicable human beings. While his behavior is understandable, some readers feel he pushed much farther then he should have had. Dalinar Kholin is a man who came forward with a high reputation, just as Amaram, but unlike Amaram he proved his worth in an unthinkable way: he gave away his Shardblade for Kaladin and he agreed to all of Kaladin none conventional demands. The second Dalinar plunged his Shardblade into the ground and offered to Sadeas in exchange for the bridgemen, Kaladin should have trusted him, but he didn't. He carried on his negative sentient, looking for all possible ways to reinforce it, to justify it and even when he put in front of the living proof one lighteyes can be honorable, he still refuses to believe it. 

 

This attitude he is exhibiting is indeed akin to racism as he is effectively putting the darkeyes as superior more moral human beings and he is discriminating negatively against them by deciding their eye color made them to be dishonorable liar. Worst, even when proven to be wrong, he remains into his prejudice.

 

This was horribly grating to some readers. I insist on the some as not all readers, of course agree, but I'll admit there is a growing negative sentient concerning Kaladin taking over so much of the main narrative. 

 

For my part, I'll admit I was not overly annoyed with Kaladin (in fact I was rather pleased with his story arc for the first 3 parts) until part 4 and all its boring chapters featuring Kaladin being depressed in prison and chasm scenes which I strongly disliked. I also disliked the Stormlight Archive 3 excerpt as it showed Kaladin has not evolved nor grown: he is still stuck within his negative emotions which makes me fear his POV will carry the same self-pitying I disliked in the last parts of WoR. I understand he is depressed, but I don't personally find static characters who never outgrow their issues interesting to read: Rand Al'Thor got uninteresting for this very reason. He kept on ranting about women who died for his cause: he was not responsible for their death, but he kept blaming himself which quickly became insufferable as it just lasted too long. Rand got interesting again when he stop the self-pitying. 

 

In the case of WoT, the interesting thing is, by the end of the series, most readers favorite character was not the hero, Rand, but Mat. I don't think I need the support of hard numbers to claim this one. Why Mat? He was more fun to read, he starts up with many flaws (he's a drunk, a gambler and an irresponsible player with a strong disdain for nobility) but slowly worked it up. In other words he grew while Rand remained rather static for a long chunk of the story, always stuck with the same issues.

 

Therefore, I'd say the biggest problem I have with Kaladin, excluding the fact I'd like to see other characters grow, is I fear his arc will grow static and repetitive much like Rand in WoT.

 

 

I would like to apologize if i offended anybody. I swear that's not what i wanted at any point. So i'd just like to apologize if i trod on anybodies toes. 

 

I just want to point out though that i quite like an abundance of Kaladin, i like the fact that Brandon isn't intimidated to tackle writing a character who struggles with depression. I like his character arcs because they deal with a lot of important roles and morale dilemmas. I also want other characters to grow of course i do but i want to see Kaladin's the most and i have no qualms about saying that. I've been looking forward to Kal pulling a Shardblade on Roshone for 5 years haha.

 

I don't think you technically offended anyone, but you did put wrong words into some mouths. So huh, no biggie, let's move on.

 

It's alright if you personally prefer to read about Kaladin, what others are stating is it is wrong to think he is the only important character (I am not insinuating you have personally stated this, I am merely listed an argument I have read). I don't believe he is and I do believe the story will be richer and better if other characters are more fleshed out while being given their own story arcs.

 

It is great Brandon is tackling with depression, but it is dangerous into a character. What makes characters interesting to read is when they are allowed to grow (alright I am talking for myself here): if Kaladin's depression prevents him from moving forward, forcing him to always chew on the same issues, then will he still be interesting to read? After two books, he has dropped significantly in many readers interest due to this very fact. Less Kaladin is thus preferable as it will allow a break from his internal struggle while leaving room for other characters to earn their distinctive arcs.

[kaellok he/him]

I would like to apologize if i offended anybody. I swear that's not what i wanted at any point. So i'd just like to apologize if i trod on anybodies toes. 

 

I just want to point out though that i quite like an abundance of Kaladin, i like the fact that Brandon isn't intimidated to tackle writing a character who struggles with depression. I like his character arcs because they deal with a lot of important roles and morale dilemmas. I also want other characters to grow of course i do but i want to see Kaladin's the most and i have no qualms about saying that. I've been looking forward to Kal pulling a Shardblade on Roshone for 5 years haha.

Well, the comment did offend me a little bit--thank you for the apology and taking the time to say what you actually mean  

I know that my reply post came off rather strong, but I couldn't find a different/better way to word it that still expressed my annoyance.  

 

 

"Racist" eh? Yeah that's not a misnomer at all.

 

...

 

If we go back to why people like Kaladin, from what I have seen is a lot of them like him specifically because of the reasons you don't (he's mopey and angsty), indeed a surprising amount seem to resonate with the mental illness aspect of Kaladin. Now I personally don't really care either way, as long as he doesn't venture into self pity too much it doesn't bother me (and if he wasn't angsty it wouldn't be believable).

He is.  As maxal said, he sees someone is a lighteyes, and then mistrusts them and assumes they are terrible people.  Just like when a white guy sees a black man and assumes they are a criminal.  Or when a lighteyes sees a darkeyes and assumes they are stupid.  The fact that there are other racists (or eyeists if you prefer) does not in any way excuse Kaladin's actions--especially when Kaladin is supposed to be an honorable, good person.  Him having reasons for it does not excuse the fact, any more than someone who was beaten near to death by a gang of black people excuses someone from hating everyone that's black for the rest of their lives.  It's a character flaw that Kaladin for much of WoR seems to view as a virtue.

 

As to why people like Kaladin--YES!  People like Kaladin for the very reasons that I dislike him.  And people dislike Shallan for the very reasons that I like her.  Of course, we tend to use different descriptors (ie, I call Kaladin mopey and angsty instead of depressed.  They say she's a Mary Sue that has everything come easily to her, and I say she uses her Radiant powers to assume the persona of someone who already has those skills and does a damnation good job of simply pretending to be them--which I know from my own personal life and experiences is a real thing that really happens.)

 

The problem that I really have is that Kaladin got a lot of time in WoR, and there was a lot more of the aspects of his character that I find boring/unlikable on full display than in WoK.  I saw him walking the same basic character arc from one book to the next.  Others tend to say (and I believe that Sanderson himself mentioned this in a WoB) that the underlying issues in WoK were never dealt with, and so it's all one continuous arc.  This makes sense.  I understand this.  I also understand that Dostoyevsky is considered a fantastic author, but I don't enjoy his works at all.  So I want there to be less of the parts I'm not enjoying, and more of the ones that I do.  Which is basically what everyone is saying

[Katono]

2 books have been published so far, so there's only been 2 main character set books so far. Does it surprise you that most people really love one of those 2 characters so much at this stage?

I think things will change in time, but right now, he has been in a lot of the action. So he gets most of the attention without a doubt.

Actually, there is a total of six to-be Radients important characters. Shallan, Jasnah, Kaladin, Dalinar, Renarin, and Lift. Edited January 4, 2016 by Katono

[Oversleep]

I'd like to point out that Kaladin's hate for lighteyes isn't 'racism' as someone named it. It's more like fight of the classes thing, the working class vs the rich ones. It is actually worse because the vorin society does work that way. While lighteyes may be not murdering darkeyes like nobles did with skaa, the social status difference is very visible.

 

We've got a lot of people devoted to fighting the social status gap (marxism, communism and the rest of these horrors) and our society wasn't even a class one. Imagine living in a real class society where the simple fact of having eyes dark places you in the lower, working class. You may be exceptionally genius surgeon who worked whole life for it and still some lazy, stupid tenth danh lighteye has power over you and has higher status.

The fact is that there are both 'good' and 'bad' lighteyes and Kaladin used to believe that until one he thought super-honorable came along. You know, the one Kaladin's men gave life for while fighting a Sharbearer and then that superhonorable lighteye murdered the rest of his men in cold blood and thanked him by selling him into slavery. Simple slavery is terrifying; top that with the rest of it and ask yourself: would I still believe that there are some 'good' lighteyes?

 

[maxal she/her]

Actually, there is a total of six to-be Radients important characters. Shallan, Jasnah, Kaladin, Dalinar, Renarin, and Lift.

 

Huh no not exactly. Those simply are the known knights which are currently scheduled to have a flashback book. Brandon has repetitively said no getting a flashback books doesn't mean someone is not important, so you can't rule out every single other characters on this basis alone. He has also changed his planning quite often: while we may expect the planning for the first arc likely won't change, Brandon has said the planning for the second arc is not fixed. He wants to do the following flashbacks: Taln, Jasnah, Lift, Shalash and Renarin, but he also said he may change his mind again.

 

Also having a flashback arc does not mean a given character will have a strong presence into the main narrative, it seems plausible, but it isn't a done deal either. Brandon confirmed we would get the flashbacks of at least one dead character, which means those characters won't have a presence within the main narrative, it is thus doubly false to think those 6 are the only ones who matters.

 

We are also getting multiple knights per order as soon as next book not to forget we haven't met all of the main POV knights yet. Some won't be known until the second half of Stormlight.

 

I'd say don't assume those are the only important character especially since three out of the six currently aren't regular POV characters.

 

 

 Simple slavery is terrifying; top that with the rest of it and ask yourself: would I still believe that there are some 'good' lighteyes?

 

I would if one has just given away the most valuable artifact ever known to their world in exchange for not only my life, but the life of a 1000 bridgemen while awarding me with an extremely high ranked position and granting me all of my requests, even the most unusual ones.

 

Not believing Dalinar is honorable after all he's done for him is prejudice and yes racism because the only reason he deems Dalinar dishonorable is due to his eye color. Even though he has proofs Dalinar is good for his word, he chose not to trust him because of his eye color: it is exactly the same of a white man who would deemed a black man unintelligent despite him having top ranked grades simply because his skin is dark. 

 

Google defines racism as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

 

Kaladin's attitude does befit this definition. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by maxal

[Femme she/her]

I think we love Kaladin because we've grown with him, we've hurt with him, we've seen him triumph over loss, hate, and revenge, and after all that we want to see him happy. Kaladin deserves happiness. 

[kaellok he/him]

I'd like to point out that Kaladin's hate for lighteyes isn't 'racism' as someone named it. It's more like fight of the classes thing, the working class vs the rich ones. It is actually worse because the vorin society does work that way. While lighteyes may be not murdering darkeyes like nobles did with skaa, the social status difference is very visible.

You can use whatever word you want.  My point is that Kaladin hates lighteyes simply because they are lighteyes.  There is literally no other thought process.  It is a binary program of if lighteyes, then evil.  I despise that attitude in anyone, but especially in primary POV characters.  It is jarring, it throws me out of their worldview, and it makes it hard for me to identify with them.  It doesn't matter to me how justified Kaladin's views might be--he is willing to despise and hate and judge people based on nothing more than the color of their eyes.  That is a deep, tragic flaw at best.  And we see it a lot in WoR; the burning anger we see in him in WoK is usually directly paired with ill treatment at the hands of a lighteyes, and so it seems reactionary rather than the way he looks at life. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by kaellok

[Seerow]

Huh no not exactly. Those simply are the known knights which are currently scheduled to have a flashback book. Brandon has repetitively said no getting a flashback books doesn't mean someone is not important, so you can't rule out every single other characters on this basis alone. He has also changed his planning quite often: while we may expect the planning for the first arc likely won't change, Brandon has said the planning for the second arc is not fixed. He wants to do the following flashbacks: Taln, Jasnah, Lift, Shalash and Renarin, but he also said he may change his mind again.

 

Also having a flashback arc does not mean a given character will have a strong presence into the main narrative, it seems plausible, but it isn't a done deal either. Brandon confirmed we would get the flashbacks of at least one dead character, which means those characters won't have a presence within the main narrative, it is thus doubly false to think those 6 are the only ones who matters.

 

We are also getting multiple knights per order as soon as next book not to forget we haven't met all of the main POV knights yet. Some won't be known until the second half of Stormlight.

 

I'd say don't assume those are the only important character especially since three out of the six currently aren't regular POV characters.

 

 

 

 

I would if one has just given away the most valuable artifact ever known to their world in exchange for not only my life, but the life of a 1000 bridgemen while awarding me with an extremely high ranked position and granting me all of my requests, even the most unusual ones.

 

Not believing Dalinar is honorable after all he's done for him is prejudice and yes racism because the only reason he deems Dalinar dishonorable is due to his eye color. Even though he has proofs Dalinar is good for his word, he chose not to trust him because of his eye color: it is exactly the same of a white man who would deemed a black man unintelligent despite him having top ranked grades simply because his skin is dark. 

 

Google defines racism as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

 

Kaladin's attitude does befit this definition. 

 

 

I'd argue that Kaladin doesn't actually believe Darkeyes are superior. The second half of the definition is critically important, and Kaladin does not fit it. He never expresses a sentiment that Darkeyes are inherently better, or even more honorable. In fact in WoK when it comes up, he mentions if Darkeyes were in charge the same attrocities would happen, just to different people. At his absolute lowest point, his stance was to let the Lighteyes keep all of the power, let that power corrupt them, and do your best to stay far far away. 

 

Fact is, Kaladin doesn't have issues with Lighteyes from a racist perspective. He has issues with Lighteyes as a caste, specifically the privilege and power they represent, and what that privelege and power does to people. It's not that having lighter colored eyes makes someone inherently worse, it's that power corrupts. It takes a truly exceptional person to be born into a position of power like that and not be an awful person. Dalinar is an exception. He stands out and is ostracised by others of his social standing because he is so different from the normal Alethi elite. Kaladin not trusting that is perfectly in character, especially with the whole Amaram fiasco in his history. 

[maxal she/her]

I'd argue that Kaladin doesn't actually believe Darkeyes are superior. The second half of the definition is critically important, and Kaladin does not fit it. He never expresses a sentiment that Darkeyes are inherently better, or even more honorable. In fact in WoK when it comes up, he mentions if Darkeyes were in charge the same attrocities would happen, just to different people. At his absolute lowest point, his stance was to let the Lighteyes keep all of the power, let that power corrupt them, and do your best to stay far far away. 

 

Ah but he does. He claims the world would be better is the darkeyes ruled it. He claims the darkeyes would not have created the injustice the lighteyes created. It is right there, in the book. He said those things, in WoR though, not in WoK. He was talking to Moash. 

 

He does think the darkeyes can't ever be as corrupted and dishonorable as the lighteyes.

 

 

Fact is, Kaladin doesn't have issues with Lighteyes from a racist perspective. He has issues with Lighteyes as a caste, specifically the privilege and power they represent, and what that privelege and power does to people. It's not that having lighter colored eyes makes someone inherently worse, it's that power corrupts. It takes a truly exceptional person to be born into a position of power like that and not be an awful person. Dalinar is an exception. He stands out and is ostracised by others of his social standing because he is so different from the normal Alethi elite. Kaladin not trusting that is perfectly in character, especially with the whole Amaram fiasco in his history. 

 

Dalinar isn't the only honorable lighteye and the reason he is ostracized is because of his visions, not his behavior. He wanted to stop the war which was highly profitable to other people simply because he thought it wrong. 

 

Years and years prior to his change, Dalinar was still known as the man who could see talent wherever it was, who was known to promote people, independently of their eye color. Nobody ever commented on that... and again other lighteyes are shown to be good decent people. Sebrarial has a darkeyes mistress, Hatham is said to run an army at least as organized and disciplined as Dalinar, Aladar is highly thought of... Really it is Sadeas and Amaram who are the rotten ones.

 

Kaladin not trusting without proof is understandable, but Kaladin not trusting Dalinar after all he's done for him is prejudiced. Dalinar gave up so much just so Kaladin could be glorified, to ignore this fact, to turn a blind-eye to it, to simply refuse to acknowledge the sacrifice Dalinar has done for his chull simply is disrespectful and not endearing at all. After the Shardblade giving scene, Kaladin should have been willing to give Dalinar a chance... but he doesn't. He kept on his position and reinforced it to the point where he commits treason.

[mosaab]

can you give a direct quote to prove your point maxal ? 

[maxal she/her]

can you give a direct quote to prove your point maxal ? 

 

Probably, but you are going to have to wait for it. I don't have an ebook and I only a vague idea at to which chapter this happens. I'll come back later.

[Stormgate he/him]

Dalinar was ostracized long before the visions became public. He thought the highprinces were behaving dishonorably, to put it simply, and he tried to impose his restrictions on others. Most Alethi lighteyes are not honorable to the letter, leading to Dalinar being a Blackthorn in their sides.

The important thing to remember about Kaladin's prejudices is that they are mostly right. I'm not saying they're right or that he should have them, but remember that about 99% of all lighteyes are marginally better than crem, with some (the ones that Kaladin encountered pre-Dalinar) having crem as their immediate moral superior.

[mosaab]

take your time 

[Garfield]

The important thing to remember about Kaladin's prejudices is that they are mostly right.

 

 

And he is even reflected enough to know that, if it were the other way around, the darkeyes rule over the lighteyes, it would be exactyl the same.

 

The only thing I absolutely didn't like and that I found a bit out of character is, that he so easily agreed to assassinating Elhokar and even gave Moash the plate and sword when he knew what he was planning. Because Elhokar is really a pain the the rear and really incompetent at his job, but Kaladin knew him well enough to be able to know, he is incompetent, not a person with bad motives. Kaladin is not the type of person who kills someone for being an annoying loser.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Garfield

[mosaab]

has anyone noticed that kaladin has four years of unaccounted for back story ?

who is tarah ?

who is the person that kaladin thought was there the day heleran came ?

you may think that period of his life does not matter. but there is a lot of name drops and reminiscence for it to not matter .

[Oversleep]

You can use whatever word you want.  My point is that Kaladin hates lighteyes simply because they are lighteyes.  There is literally no other thought process.  It is a binary program of if lighteyes, then evil.  I despise that attitude in anyone, but especially in primary POV characters.  It is jarring, it throws me out of their worldview, and it makes it hard for me to identify with them.  It doesn't matter to me how justified Kaladin's views might be--he is willing to despise and hate and judge people based on nothing more than the color of their eyes.  That is a deep, tragic flaw at best.  And we see it a lot in WoR; the burning anger we see in him in WoK is usually directly paired with ill treatment at the hands of a lighteyes, and so it seems reactionary rather than the way he looks at life. 

Sooo... You're basically saying "Arguments doesn't matter, I am right because I am"? And naming the thing correctly is important, because right now we're making a thought experiment and removing the eye colour from Roshar. Situation stays the same, nothing changes. Now we're having a "superior caste" and "inferior caste" and inferior ones doesn't think highly of those superior. We can replace eye colour with tattoos on forehead to be able to distinguish people instantly to keep that particular feature of vorin caste system. Is it still racism to you? Based on what?

It will be discrimination, yes. Racism, no.

 

Ah but he does. He claims the world would be better is the darkeyes ruled it. He claims the darkeyes would not have created the injustice the lighteyes created. It is right there, in the book. He said those things, in WoR though, not in WoK. He was talking to Moash. 

 

He does think the darkeyes can't ever be as corrupted and dishonorable as the lighteyes.

 

 

 

Dalinar isn't the only honorable lighteye and the reason he is ostracized is because of his visions, not his behavior. He wanted to stop the war which was highly profitable to other people simply because he thought it wrong. 

 

Years and years prior to his change, Dalinar was still known as the man who could see talent wherever it was, who was known to promote people, independently of their eye color. Nobody ever commented on that... and again other lighteyes are shown to be good decent people. Sebrarial has a darkeyes mistress, Hatham is said to run an army at least as organized and disciplined as Dalinar, Aladar is highly thought of... Really it is Sadeas and Amaram who are the rotten ones.

 

Kaladin not trusting without proof is understandable, but Kaladin not trusting Dalinar after all he's done for him is prejudiced. Dalinar gave up so much just so Kaladin could be glorified, to ignore this fact, to turn a blind-eye to it, to simply refuse to acknowledge the sacrifice Dalinar has done for his chull simply is disrespectful and not endearing at all. After the Shardblade giving scene, Kaladin should have been willing to give Dalinar a chance... but he doesn't. He kept on his position and reinforced it to the point where he commits treason.

I personally think Kaladin doesn't really change his worldview on lighteyes; he just thinks "Okay, this one and maybe his family are alright, but exceptions happens and lighteyes are still crem". One example doesn't mean the majority of lighteyes is good now. And as for the treason he learns that the man who was responsible for the trouble his family has gone through was sent there as punishment for his crimes which happen to be killing off his business rivals (a pair of elders, for the Colours' sake!) in the eye of the law. Who sent that man there? Why, Elhokar.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Oversleep

[mosaab]

it doesnt matter if there are good lighteyes, at the end of the day if they decided to become bad, Who's going to take them to task?

 

for all sadeas villainy, he is within his rights according to their laws . 

 

the system lends it self to corruption.

Edited January 4, 2016 by mosaab

[Garfield]

You can use whatever word you want.  My point is that Kaladin hates lighteyes simply because they are lighteyes.  There is literally no other thought process.

 

 

 

He hates them because he fears them. He is traumatized. He doesn t hate them because they are lighteyes, but because by seeing them they remind him of what multiple other lighteyes in power have previously done to make his life extremely miserable while he was not doing anything to wrong them. And what they might do to him in the future (not any longer, but during almost all of the two novels)

Edited January 4, 2016 by Garfield

[Garfield]

You can use whatever word you want.  My point is that Kaladin hates lighteyes simply because they are lighteyes.  There is literally no other thought process.

 

 

 

He hates them because he fears them. He is traumatized. He doesn t hate them because they are lighteyes, but because by seeing them they remind him of what multiple other lighteyes have previously done to make his life extremely miserable while he was not doing anything to wrong them. And what they might do to him in the future (not any longer, but during almost all of the two novels)

 

He believes power corrupts and most lighteyes are corrupted by that power. That's why he is reluctant to be one. He intereracts perfectly polite and normal with the lower dahn lighteye workers in Dalinar's camp.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Garfield

[Pathfinder]

Sooo... You're basically saying "Arguments doesn't matter, I am right because I am"? And naming the thing correctly is important, because right now we're making a thought experiment and removing the eye colour from Roshar. Situation stays the same, nothing changes. Now we're having a "superior caste" and "inferior caste" and inferior ones doesn't think highly of those superior. We can replace eye colour with tattoos on forehead to be able to distinguish people instantly to keep that particular feature of vorin caste system. Is it still racism to you? Based on what?

 

I personally think Kaladin doesn't really change his worldview on lighteyes; he just thinks "Okay, this one and maybe his family are alright, but exceptions happens and lighteyes are still crem". One example doesn't mean the majority of lighteyes is good now. And as for the treason he learns that the man who was responsible for the trouble his family has gone through was sent there as punishment for his crimes which happen to be killing off his business rivals (a pair of elders, for the Colours' sake!) in the eye of the law. Who sent that man there? Why, Elhokar.

It is racism because although castes do exist, it is not the caste that Kaladin has a problem with. If i recall correctly there are 10 dahns for dark eyes, and 10 dahns for light eyes. If he only had a problem with castes, then he would think/say "everyone above this caste line will use you and betray you. Everyone of this caste number is dishonorable". But he does not. he does not reference the caste level at all. It does not matter if the lighteyed is of the 10th dahn or the first dahn. All lighteyes are reprehensible. it was stated earlier the definition of racism, so lets look at the definition again, shall we? (emphasis mine)

 

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

 

Kaladin views all lighteyes are dishonorable, regardless of dahn. Therefore it does not have to do with caste. It has to do with racism. The "Race" is in this case referring to the color of the eyes, rather than skin. 

[Garfield]

 

Kaladin views all lighteyes are dishonorable, regardless of dahn. Therefore it does not have to do with caste. It has to do with racism. The "Race" is in this case referring to the color of the eyes, rather than skin. 

 

 

Ah, so the black people in the USA, that fear white police forces because they are known to shoot innocent, unarmed black kids almost at random  are racists because they are weary of the white population?