What's with all the Kaladin love?

[AerionBFII he/him]

He is a great character, with a really relatable and common problem that seems to be all but ignored in most fantasy series.

He has obstacles to overcome and his character growth isn't yet complete and his arc has really just started..

[Vander]

Hmm... this topic's gotten quite deep. I never imagined it would turn into this, but am nonetheless happy. 

 

Speaking of continuing arcs..., which one are you most interested in seeing? I personally want to see Kaladin's return to his home, as well as his reaction to his status as a full KR. The whole Szeth-Nightblood-Vasher thing is compelling too, perhaps even more so, because of both the promising interactions between Nightblood and Szeth, as well as why Nightblood was with Nin.

[Stormgate he/him]

I think Elhokar will be cool to watch.

[Guest]

Hmm... this topic's gotten quite deep. I never imagined it would turn into this, but am nonetheless happy. 

 

Speaking of continuing arcs..., which one are you most interested in seeing? I personally want to see Kaladin's return to his home, as well as his reaction to his status as a full KR. The whole Szeth-Nightblood-Vasher thing is compelling too, perhaps even more so, because of both the promising interactions between Nightblood and Szeth, as well as why Nightblood was with Nin.

 

Everyone knows which arc I want to read and no it isn't Kaladin. In fact, after WoR, I have gotten tired of reading solely about Kaladin, so I am among those who wish his arc will take less place in the next book.

[Vander]

Everyone knows which arc I want to read and no it isn't Kaladin. In fact, after WoR, I have gotten tired of reading solely about Kaladin, so I am among those who wish his arc will take less place in the next book.

I'm assuming you're talking about Szeth? (Based on other posts by you, if I recall correctly.)

 

If so, I agree. I do think Kaladin's story should be told further, but what I'm looking forward to more is Szeth's (possible) redemption. 

 

Plus, the inevitable WTS?! moment when people find out that Szeth is alive beckons to me. It's probably quite a whiles off, but still.

 

According to Brandon, SA 3 will be focused on Dalinar (as in, flashbacks) which worries me slightly. Nonetheless, I'm willing to wait  as long as needed for that particular backstory: while all of them are tragedies of their own sorts, Szeth's is my type as it seems to be the story of a potential savior condemned. I don't really like him as a person as of now, but I've always thought more on what characters COULD be than what they are, soooo....

[Guest]

 

I'm assuming you're talking about Szeth? (Based on other posts by you, if I recall correctly.)

 

   

 

You haven't been here long enough... I despise Szeth  I would hate to see him get a redemption.

[Vander]

 

 

 

 

   

 

You haven't been here long enough... I despise Szeth  I would hate to see him get a redemption.

 

Oh, haha! Then you must have been the guy I wanted to... find...  I mean, what?!

 

Actually, I've been around a while, but only got an account a bit ago, and took longer to actually use it. I just forgot what side of the argument you're on. 

 

I do urge you to give him a chance, though: We've only seen the psycho-assassin side of him. If he is truly redeemed, he might actually become a character you could like.

 

Well, either way, to each their own. Personally, I hold something of a bias for both Szeth and the (real) Skybreakers, so...

[Stormgate he/him]

Szeth isn't a bad person, he was simply mistaken. It's like Vivenna helping Denth start a war, not knowing that it was wrong. In fact, Szeth constantly sufferers internally for killing people, sacrificing his personal code of ethics for the law he was subjected to. The law was wrong, but so was Denth.

[Vander]

Szeth isn't a bad person, he was simply mistaken. It's like Vivenna helping Denth start a war, not knowing that it was wrong. In fact, Szeth constantly sufferers internally for killing people, sacrificing his personal code of ethics for the law he was subjected to. The law was wrong, but so was Denth.

Honestly, I think he was something of a tragic villain. I'm not really in the camp that says he's "weak", nor in the one that says he "enjoys killing". Neither of these are correct, and are really an injustice to both Szeth the character and Szeth the person. Further, what you say is perfectly true.

 

I think the best word for him is "victim". The sheer adherence he showed to a perfectly normal stone suggests that the Shamanate pretty much ingrains their beliefs into other Shin, effectively brainwashing them. This, added to the other things I have stated, lead me to come to the following conclusion:

 

While his circumstances and how long he held out under them mark him as a truly respectable person, I hardly think that he is as of now a likable one. If his experience with the falsity of his title prove to make him a better- no, not better- more independent person, I would both like and respect him. I fully expect him to reach that point, even though Sanderson himself has shown some amount of bias for Kal, or against Szeth.

 

For a bit of speculation: I can totally see some clash between what Nin says and what Szeth believes. His sense of justice- before he became unhinged- is something which I think the true Skybreakers must have adhered to. From Nin's actions, I highly doubt he's the same as he was during the time of the Heraldic Epochs. So, that'll be interesting.

[AerionBFII he/him]

 

 

     You haven't been here long enough... I despise Szeth  I would hate to see him get a redemption.

 

Are you serious? Szeth is awesome!

Can't wait for his Skybreaker arc and his revenge. I had myself all geared up to read Szeth but im glad it was Dalinar if it HAD  to be changed...

 

 

 

 

Kaladin is a great read, Im looking forward to his return home seeing his parents and Laral and then his visiting Kholinar arc.

Edited December 5, 2015 by WEZ313

[Stormgate he/him]

   

 

You haven't been here long enough... I despise Szeth  I would hate to see him get a redemption.

I see that though you read, you do not understand. You read about what Szeth did, and you can only see the Truthless of Shinovar. We read about what Szeth did, and we hear the screams of those who he kills, even those he killed in the past. He blames those who he killed for getting in his way, for making him kill them. He is definitely misguided, anyone who believes different should not be trusted with sharp objects or in charge of important decisions.

[DreamEternal]

Szeth... I like him, and agree that "tragic villain" is truly the best way to describe him. He was raised in an isolationist, cult-like society that is most likely a distopia hiding beneath the skin of a land of eternal peace.

Everyone he knew during his whole life probably told him to not trust stonewalkers, to listen to everything the Stone Shamans say and always, always obey.

Then, for one reason we do not know why he discovered something. Something big. Something that hinted at things that could never have been true. So he came to the Shamans, and asked for answers, asked them to dismiss his fears that everything he believed was falling apart, or to give him a new truth to live for.

Instead, they branded him a Truthless, and he complied, for the Stone Shamans do not lie. Who was he to question? Who was anyone to question? He was just another shin, another mindless slave to his beliefs, just like the Shamanate wanted.

Szeth's tale is one of a man whose greatest virtues are turned against him by an unfair world, and while I don't think or want his sins to ever be fully forgotten, and for him to be friends with the heroes, I still think he may be a force of good one day, if he ever breaks free from Nin and abandons his quest for vengeance.

PS: two of tee things that help me liking him are that I generaly prefer to see villains as also being victims whenever possible and tend to avoid hating anything or anyone.

EDIT: On Kaladin:

Truth to be told, I am a bit burned out from his arc. It was very good while it lasted, and Lirin is my favorite SA character, but after the family reunion I think it would be better for Kaladin to leave the spotlight for characters who need it more, since most of his remaining possible plot-lines after Hearthstone wont be as deeply personal.

Plus, it will add a cyclical feel to his main arc, which is nothing new, but adds a heroic air to his story, and Kaladin is the most archetypal "hero" character we have.

Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

 

Szeth is perfectly aware he is committing crimes, he is perfectly aware he is transgressing the laws of other countries, but he keeps doing it but going through the mental exercise his orders supersedes those of law and of morality. The fact he was ordered to do so does not remove him of his personal responsibilities.

 

He is accountable for his crimes and these cannot be excused nor redeemed. He deserves to be punished and the atrocities of his actions do not leave enough room for a "second chance". He could have dropped the stone any time he wished. He was not held hostage, he was not possessed: he was in perfect control of his actions and he genuinely decided to go by the words of the Stone Shamanes. He was not brainwashed to the point he couldn't realize his actions were wrong: he kept at it for the shake for his soul.

 

I personally don't care how many "good reason" Brandon may invent for him: he killed these people, he deserves punishment. A severe one and one that certainly do not imply "redemption". Seeing Szeth get the chance to become an amazing Radiant after all the evil he has done would be the most anti-climatic story line, for me, and an unsatisfying one as I would feel he does not deserve it.

 

So no, I do not like Szeth. I don't pity him either. Nobody was holding a gun to his temple when he kills those people.

 

 

EDIT: On Kaladin:

Truth to be told, I am a bit burned out from his arc. It was very good while it lasted, and Lirin is my favorite SA character, but after the family reunion I think it would be better for Kaladin to leave the spotlight for characters who need it more, since most of his remaining possible plot-lines after Hearthstone wont be as deeply personal.


Plus, it will add a cyclical feel to his main arc, which is nothing new, but adds a heroic air to his story, and Kaladin is the most archetypal "hero" character we have.

 

I agree especially to the last line. I personally feel Kaladin's story arc has gotten horribly predictable. 

 

How book 3 will go down:

 

There will be a climax and he will *again* arrive, to the last minute, and save the day. He will be seen as the hero even if he was not the one doing the bulk of the fighting, he is just the guy who needed to be kicked in the butt 1000 times before figuring out he should be acting. 

 

This is getting old. In both book, all we remember is Kaladin coming to the rescue, but we tend to spare little thoughts for those who have been fighting for hours before he even thought of getting there.

 

I would prefer if the climax within the next book didn't involve Kaladin or if his role was more peripheral. Let someone else save the day. Let other characters have their moments of glory. 

 

I mean, if I could be so bold, let someone like Renarin be the hero. That would be a nice change.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Being threatened with the loss of your soul and eternal damnation is kind of like having a gun to your head, though.

[DreamEternal]

Maxal: lets just say that I disagree with many things you said in your post and take for granted to be true and right.

I believe many don't understand how one can be shaped by their culture or how hard it is to resist when said culture isolates itself and labels all who disagree as evil.

I believe there is no such a thing as someone who does not deserve a second chance, if it is possible to offer it without risking more lifes.

I don't hold "punishment" as sacred, and the very idea of someone deserving suffering because that person caused suffering sickens me.

In his warped mind, the universe itself was holding a gun over his head, unfortunately most seem unable to accept that he was forced to believe that by his people.

He could have been one of the most moral characters of SA if he wasn't made a truthless. He has the potential for good and the wush to do good, and that is enough to make his position tragic.

And, before leaving this discussion to rest, I must say that from a deterministic viewpoint we are all what the universe made us to be. If I hate Szeth, then I hate a victim, because his nature hates the evil he became. And I refuse to hate a victim.

Now, please don't reply to this. We already derailed the thread too much.

EDIT: Also, don't take this as me trying to argue against your points, as much as stating how my beliefs differ from most and how it affects how I see Szeth.

Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

I would like to point out I did not say he deserved to suffer. Punishment do not equal suffering or physical torture, but he does deserve to be sentenced to prison for life. It is just how things are: you do crimes, you are punished. It does not matter how repentant you are, you still have to do your time according to the offense you have done. As it happen, first degree murder is one of the largest offense a man can be find guilty of and, as a result, Szeth does not deserve to be allowed to walk free from his responsibilities simply because "he is a poor victim".

 

The idea Szeth would be given a free pass out of having murdered countless of people simply because "he was ordered to" is baffling. 

 

There is absolutely no modern day legal system who would allow Szeth to get away with a slap on the hand by using the excuse "he was brainwashed". His POV do tell us he was perfectly aware of his actions. If he is able to tell he is doing wrong, then he is able to stop himself. Modern day lawyers have debated on these issues several times over and the end result has always been the same: you can't subscribe to your responsibilities as a human being for the shake of your eternal soul, for the shake of your government, for the shake of anything. You just don't. 

 

In that optic, not seeing Szeth receive the punishment he deserves would be very frustrating for me as a reader. He does not deserve, in my opinion, to become a Radiant. It would be an anti-climatic plot line if he did, for me. 

 

I'd like to emphasis this is my personal opinion. I just do not see this character as pitiful or worthy of a redemption arc, not until he does sufficient penance to absolve from his crimes.

Edited December 5, 2015 by maxal

[Edgedancer he/him]

I would like to point out I did not say he deserved to suffer. Punishment do not equal suffering or physical torture, but he does deserve to be sentenced to prison for life. It is just how things are: you do crimes, you are punished. It does not matter how repentant you are, you still have to do your time according to the offense you have done. As it happen, first degree murder is one of the largest offense a man can be find guilty of and, as a result, Szeth does not deserve to be allowed to walk free from his responsibilities simply because "he is a poor victim".

 

The idea Szeth would be given a free pass out of having murdered countless of people simply because "he was ordered to" is baffling. 

 

There is absolutely no modern day legal system who would allow Szeth to get away with a slap on the hand by using the excuse "he was brainwashed". His POV do tell us he was perfectly aware of his actions. If he is able to tell he is doing wrong, then he is able to stop himself. Modern day lawyers have debated on these issues several times over and the end result has always been the same: you can't subscribe to your responsibilities as a human being for the shake of your eternal soul, for the shake of your government, for the shake of anything. You just don't. 

 

In that optic, not seeing Szeth receive the punishment he deserves would be very frustrating for me as a reader. He does not deserve, in my opinion, to become a Radiant. It would be an anti-climatic plot line if he did, for me. 

 

I'd like to emphasis this is my personal opinion. I just do not see this character as pitiful or worthy of a redemption arc, not until he does sufficient penance to absolve from his crimes.

You know, I don't think that anyone is saying that he should get a pat on the back and be taken down to have a drink to just forget all that he's done (at least I hope) just that when fighting an army that wants to murder literally everything then, assuming he comes into a mindset where he isn't a risk to more people, putting someone that can fight into prision instead of at the front lines is pretty wasteful and to be honest, even if he were to turn into an Radiant, being a radiant sucks. Sure, you get to have nifty magical powers but you have to use them to fight a war against the forces of the Desolation, which are straight out of nightmares.

 

As I see it, in Szeth's case "redemption" doesn't mean letting him go without punishment but more punishing him in a way that's actually useful for society.

[DreamEternal]

What I meant was something more inbetween, actualy. I don't want him to be friends with the New Orders and fight by their side. But IF he changes his mindset in a way he is no longer a danger, any form of punishment besides something like imprisionment and isolation from society would be unnecessary in my eyes.

The ideal ending for a Szeth redemption scenary in my opinion would be if after the world is no longer ending he willingly let himself be imprisioned in a lone cell in Urithiru and became a hermit scholar of sorts dedicating his time to meditation and study in the hope of doing a service towards the world he almost destroyed.

Edit: I also don't want him to become a true Radiant. Not because I think he is evil or something, but because he is the epitome of "Weakness before strenght".

Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Guest]

 

You know, I don't think that anyone is saying that he should get a pat on the back and be taken down to have a drink to just forget all that he's done (at least I hope) just that when fighting an army that wants to murder literally everything then, assuming he comes into a mindset where he isn't a risk to more people, putting someone that can fight into prision instead of at the front lines is pretty wasteful and to be honest, even if he were to turn into an Radiant, being a radiant sucks. Sure, you get to have nifty magical powers but you have to use them to fight a war against the forces of the Desolation, which are straight out of nightmares.

 

As I see it, in Szeth's case "redemption" doesn't mean letting him go without punishment but more punishing him in a way that's actually useful for society.

 

As long as he gets punishment to make it seems as if he were not walking out of it with a pad on the hands, I would be fine with it, though I still do not want to see him make it to Radiant. It is not so much his past actions which I think rules him out, but the fact he has absolutely no free-will, no agency. 

 

As for the Radiants being forced to fight the Desolation, I'd like to point that for one Radiant, there must be thousand of simple soldiers fighting the same monstrous creatures straight from hell without the support of stormlight. Soldiers likely had a 100% chance of dying while Radiants likely had 95% chance of surviving.... Now of course these percentages are a hyperbole, but if you gave me the choice, I'd choose Radiant over regular soldier any day. 

 

 

What I meant was something more inbetween, actualy. I don't want him to be friends with the New Orders and fight by their side. But IF he changes his mindset in a way he is no longer a danger, any form of punishment besides something like imprisionment and isolation from society would be unnecessary in my eyes.


The ideal ending for a Szeth redemption scenary in my opinion would be if after the world is no longer ending he willingly let himself be imprisioned in a lone cell in Urithiru and became a hermit scholar of sorts dedicating his time to meditation and study in the hope of doing a service towards the world he almost destroyed.


Edit: I also don't want him to become a true Radiant. Not because I think he is evil or something, but because he is the epitome of "Weakness before strenght".

 

This I actually agree with. It would satisfy me as he would still get to receive a punishment worthy of his crimes, thus making him accountable for them. 

 

[DreamEternal]

This I actually agree with. It would satisfy me as he would still get to receive a punishment worthy of his crimes, thus making him accountable for them.

Truth to be told, I don't really see it as a punishment, since I think only through a life of isolation, service and meditation he would be able to find some semblance of inner peace. Maybe. Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Purelake Earthquake he/him]

Am I the only one who thinks there might be more forces at play compelling Szeth than just the cultural/religious ones?

 

I know when Brandon was talking about the book back when in the earlier versions he said that the inspiration behind Szeth was something like 'a good man forced to kill' (I might be able to dredge up a quote on this, but that's the gist)  It wasn't 'a decent man strongly persuaded to kill'.  Granted, this was the earlier versions, and a lot changed between then and now.  But, being as it was his core idea for Szeth, I don't think it would have changed too much, maybe moving somewhere between the two ideas instead of going all the way to the latter.

 

 

Anyway, I don't think we can rule out an additional magical influence or some other force until we figure out a little more of what the heck is going on in Shinovar right now, as well as Roshar in general.  There's so much we don't know.

[DreamEternal]

Am I the only one who thinks there might be more forces at play compelling Szeth than just the cultural/religious ones?

I think Brandon said there was no magic involved.

Plus, the whole point of Szeth's character is the question of how much of our actions are our responsability and how far our cultures can force us to go. Making it so that he had some magical compulsion takes all of his uniqueness away and makes him much less polarizing and interedsing.

And I say it as someone who does not fully believe in free-will, but still sees how much it would cheapen his character to make his choices affected directly by supernatural sources.

Edited December 5, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[FormlessFox he/him]

Am I the only one who thinks there might be more forces at play compelling Szeth than just the cultural/religious ones?

 

I know when Brandon was talking about the book back when in the earlier versions he said that the inspiration behind Szeth was something like 'a good man forced to kill' (I might be able to dredge up a quote on this, but that's the gist)  It wasn't 'a decent man strongly persuaded to kill'.  Granted, this was the earlier versions, and a lot changed between then and now.  But, being as it was his core idea for Szeth, I don't think it would have changed too much, maybe moving somewhere between the two ideas instead of going all the way to the latter.

 

 

Anyway, I don't think we can rule out an additional magical influence or some other force until we figure out a little more of what the heck is going on in Shinovar right now, as well as Roshar in general.  There's so much we don't know.

 

The first time Szeth sees Kaladin surgebind he says something like "No, its impossible! They lied to me!"

 

We know the Shin have the herald's blades that were left behind.  If they believed the desolations were truly over and Szeth showed signs of surgebinding the Shin may have seen him as some kind of abomination.  Those that refer to him always mention that he was some kind of disgusting failure to the Shin.

 

I am thinking that Szeth's fate is the result of some flaw in the Shin's beliefs and they put him on the path he is walking thinking that he was truthless when they have based their whole culture on lies.  Just seems like a nice Sanderson arc for the most truthful people.

[Purelake Earthquake he/him]

I think Brandon said there was no magic involved.

I haven't seen any WoBs on this.  I looked it up on theoryland, and found a couple people asking about it, but he RAFO'd it each time.

It seems like he's trying to keep this topic up for debate.

 

I'm not talking about the magic forcing his actions so much as it manipulating him in addition to his culture.  I don't think his character under those circumstances is any less interesting than the one without magical influence, and I think it creates potential for more interesting character later on in the series.

 

 

But, the real point of my post was just to see if everyone thinks it is just culture involved.  The fandom here on the forums seems to have pretty much universally accepted the idea that there's just cultural influence and no magic, whereas in the text itself, I don't see that as much.  So, I wanted to know if I really am the only one who sees this as a good possibility, or even a reasonable possibility.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: didn't see the other post yet

 

I am thinking that Szeth's fate is the result of some flaw in the Shin's beliefs and they put him on the path he is walking thinking that he was truthless when they have based their whole culture on lies.  Just seems like a nice Sanderson arc for the most truthful people.

I'm certainly not denying that this has a significant influence, it set him off in that direction.  I just don't think he could have continued such a path for so long without some sort of additional force manipulating him.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Purelake Earthquake

[Guest]

Truth to be told, I don't really see it as a punishment, since I think only through a life of isolation, service and meditation he would be able to find some semblance of inner peace. Maybe.

 

It still is retribution and it still counts as imprisonment. Prisons do not have to be gloomy, dark and violent... In the scenario you proposed, he gives away his freedom to redeem himself by doing service to society through confinement. 

 

I would agree with it. It seems fair.

 

 

Plus, the whole point of Szeth's character is the question of how much of our actions are our responsability and how far our cultures can force us to go. Making it so that he had some magical compulsion takes all of his uniqueness away and makes him much less polarizing and interedsing.

 

You know, there are events in our world which caused internal laws to wonder about these very things. The quote I provided in my earlier response was from the Nuremberg principles which established that crimes are committed by human entities and these needs to be punished accordingly. 

 

The most interesting of these principles no doubt is principle number 4 which I quoted. It can be resumed as "It is not an excuse to say to say I was following an order" which, I believe, readily applies to Szeth. Yes, he was following orders, yes, he is misguided, yes he believes he has no other choices but to follow this order, but at the same time he is fully aware is breaking every laws, he is murdering people under false pretenses. He knows this and since he is fully aware he is asked to commit crimes, he cannot be absolved by simply stating: "It was an order.".

 

Yes this is harsh, but laws are harsh. If you kill someone, you suffer a maximum penalty unless it can be proven you had no other choice, which basically means: "I accidentally killed him while trying to prevent him from killing me.". The most interesting discussion I have seen on the subject was on Tor.com where a real-life criminal attorney offered what he thought modern laws, as applicable in his State, would think of Shallan and Adolin's crimes... The even most interesting element was Shallan has much less possible defense for murdering her father than Adolin for murdering Sadeas as using poison is always considered premeditate which leads to first murder degree charges. It was much interesting. No doubt Szeth would receive the death penalty in many countries. Since I don't personally believe in death penalties, imprisonment assorted to deep thinking and perhaps using those musing to the greater good appears as suitable punishment, but criminal law, as it stands, is rather unforgivable.

 

This being said, I do agree Szeth is a more interesting character if no supernatural forces are at stake. We already have Eshonai who committing evil by being overtaken with an evil entity. Szeth would be redundant.