What's with all the Kaladin love?

[Stormgate he/him]

Ah, right you are.

I assume you mean this one: http://www.tor.com/2014/09/30/brandon-sanderson-stormlight-archive-book-3-first-chapter/

That's the one.

[Rakei]

I assume the lighteyes change will become permanent when all the oaths are spoken, because we know at least darkeyes that link with a shardblade have their eyes lightened to some extent, because Moash's eyes turned tan from a very dark brown.

[DSC01 he/him]

I think his eyes shouldn't change permanently. It would kind of undermine his character. As he says at one point in WoR (I believe when offered the Shards he gives to Moash), he doesn't want to become a lighteyes; he wants life to improve for him as he is now. He wants things to stop being bad for darkeyes. I think his character works better if he continues to be darkeyed. Really, it's probably linked to his Cognitive Identity, so it's kind of up to him whether they change or not.

[Stormgate he/him]

I think he becomes a lighteyes when he holds his Blade because Shardbearers are lighteyes, but he doesn't really consider himself a Shardbearer. Like how Shallan and Szeth needed ten heartbeats to summon their Blades, but didn't really need to.

[galendo]

I think his eyes shouldn't change permanently. It would kind of undermine his character. As he says at one point in WoR (I believe when offered the Shards he gives to Moash), he doesn't want to become a lighteyes; he wants life to improve for him as he is now. He wants things to stop being bad for darkeyes. I think his character works better if he continues to be darkeyed. Really, it's probably linked to his Cognitive Identity, so it's kind of up to him whether they change or not.

I think it could easily go either way.  For example, if Kaladin does become permanently lighteyed, we could still get a rather interesting story arc about him becoming (inadvertantly and irrevocably) what he hates, and him needing to come to grips with his own stereotyping and realize that his unreasonable bias against lighteyes is just as bad as lighteyes being unreasonably biased against darkeyes.  That people are people regardless of the color of their eyes.

 

I'm also moderately convinced that one of Kaladin's future story arcs and/or oaths is going to be about giving up hatred/anger/vengeance in favor of the greater good (his unreasonable anger seems to be one of his greatest remaining character flaws), and the switch from being darkeyed to being lighteyed could serve as a catalyst for the change.

[AerionBFII he/him]

There is a WOB that Brandon said it's all about perception, Kal doesn't see himself as Lighteyed so he's not.

It's why he still has his scars because he cant see himself without them. Lopen on the other hand never really accepted himself as one armed so his started to grow back.

[Stormgate he/him]

Doesn't Lopen say that he has two arms, but one just got lost?

[AerionBFII he/him]

Doesn't Lopen say that he has two arms, but one just got lost?

LOL!!

Ever wonder how he lost it?

[Citadel16 he/him]

LOL!!

Ever wonder how he lost it?

 

selling arms to smugglers. buy one get one half off.

 

...

  that was horrible.

[Perrin Aybara he/him]

selling arms to smugglers. buy one get one half off.

 

...

  that was horrible.

HILARIOUS! UPVOTES ALL AROUND FOR THIS ONE!!!

 

Now, on a more serious note, I actually feel that if Dalinar got twice as much screen time (which is still around 50,000 words less than Kaladin) he'd be more popular. Sadly, that type of stuff just doesn't happen. I love Dalinar more than I love Kaladin, and that's a hard decision. The thing is, Dalinar actually seems to have more honor than Kaladin. Has anyone else noticed that? He loves his soldiers, treats them well, fights for the low, etc. Heck, at the end of WoK, he freed the bridgemen. Nobody else pays attention to them. Yes, Kaladin made the right decision by fighting to save Dalinar, but any other lighteyes would do the following:

 

Aladar looked at Kaladin. "Thank you for saving my life." He patted the bridgeman on the head twice, and then began walking away. "Captain Dunrial! See that the bridgemen get escorted back to Highprince Sadeas' camp, but make sure to tell Sadeas how this one saved my life! He gets a cookie!"

 

Kaladin thought about attempting to escape with the remnants of Bridge Four; it might be possible that Aladar would allow them to escape in return for them saving his life. He knew the chances were slim, though, so he went with the rest of Bridge Four, shoulders slumped, to confront Sadeas.

 

Upon arriving, Sadeas waited, still wearing shardplate, and around him were fifty guards. "That man," Sadeas began, pointing at Kaladin. "is a traitor! He directly disobeyed my orders!"

 

"Your orders would have killed me!" Aladar shouted.

 

"It doesn't matter! I am more powerful than you, or anyone!" An arrow sprouted from Aladar's neck. The shot came from within his army. "You see, that fool thought that he could resist my power! You all must follow me as the new king of Alethkar!" His men shouted in agreement, and no small part of Aladar's army also did. They were all afraid of the powerful, conniving Highprince, now declared king of Alethkar, rival to Elhokar.

 

Sadeas strode up to Kaladin. Kaladin saw the sword flash before his eyes, and then nothing more.

 

 

That is what would have happened if the Highprince had been Aladar, rather than Dalinar, who Kaladin saved at the end of WoK.

Now, this is obviously not what happened, and Kaladin probably would have had some sort of dramatic battle with Sadeas and miraculously won, but still, what I'm saying is that it's Dalinar who has been creating all this wonderful opportunity for Kaladin; he's a guy to root for, and he seems to have more honor than Kaladin. I just like him. What do you guys think?

Why is Kaladin better than Dalinar?

Edited December 19, 2015 by Perrin Aybara

[Stormgate he/him]

Comparing Kaladin to Dalinar is like comparing a hammer to a screwdriver. They are both honorable, they both stand and fight for things that others don't care about, they simply fight different battles. Kaladin fights the battles of a soldier, of a sergeant, so to speak. Dalinar fights the battles of a politician and a general. Both would be extremely ineffective at filling the other's role, a hammer might, with creativity, be used as a screwdriver, and a screwdriver might be able to be used as a hammer. But there are tasks only a hammer can do, which, if a screwdriver were to be used, would seriously damage the screwdriver and may do more harm than good. I'm not saying a hammer or a screwdriver is better, but they are better in certain situations.

[Vander]

Comparing Kaladin to Dalinar is like comparing a hammer to a screwdriver. They are both honorable, they both stand and fight for things that others don't care about, they simply fight different battles. Kaladin fights the battles of a soldier, of a sergeant, so to speak. Dalinar fights the battles of a politician and a general. Both would be extremely ineffective at filling the other's role, a hammer might, with creativity, be used as a screwdriver, and a screwdriver might be able to be used as a hammer. But there are tasks only a hammer can do, which, if a screwdriver were to be used, would seriously damage the screwdriver and may do more harm than good. I'm not saying a hammer or a screwdriver is better, but they are better in certain situations.

A great analogy! Upvote for you!

 

... Which one's the hammer, though?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

... Which one's the hammer, though?

 

Definitely Dalinar.

[Vander]

Definitely Dalinar.

Really? I would actually think Kaladin would be closer to the Hammer: A good and decisive leader, but not that "refined."

 

Dalinar, on the other hand, is a budding politician: I can totally see him for as a Screwdriver, a device for a purpose requiring finer control.

[Stormgate he/him]

Kaladin is more blunt and straightforward than Dalinar, who has to do more political wrangling. Kaladin just fights. He has moral problems, but Dalinar will and does have his own.

[Mr Horrible]

With the exception of the reunion at Hearthstone, none of those plot points are deeply personal, like Shallan's search for knowledge about her brother, Adolin's murder of Sadeas, or Dalinar's recent bond with the Stormfather. Or whatever Nale plans to do to Szeth.

Oh, and Kaladin is a great warrior, yes, but why in Braize should it make him more relevant than Shallan's spying or Dalinar's political leadership? Knowledge and unity are much more important than a single warrior, no matter how powerful. Unless that warrior was recently recruited by a possibly insane Herald and give a weapon of mass destruction, and may cause even more chaos.

And while it is nice to see Kaladin trying to do his duty, we need time for everyone else too! No one wants him to mysteriously vanish, just to lose some screen time.

 

 

Saying the Kholinar won't have a personal subplot for Kaladin considering the light/darkeyes dynamic there is rather amusing, I mean that just seems obvious to toss Kaladin into which is why people have predicted it.

 

I feel like you're discounting Kaladin from 2 of those points; namely Shallan and her brother involve Kaladin quite a bit and Dalinar and the Stormfather is really the same for all radiants in that they all need to progress further through their orders. e.g. Shallan needs to tell more truths and Kaladin needs to say a few more oaths. Of these moments in general, Kaladin's have been quite a lot more impactful than anyone else's to the story.

 

Kaladin is portrayed as a great warrior and a great leader (guilt being his major weakness here), a character like that is expected to be important in the coming fights, particularly while there aren't many martial-focused radiants around (Stonewardens, Skybreakers etc). No Szeth doesn't count as a Skybreaker yet. As it stands currently he is clearly the strongest fighter of the Radiants (although this assumes soulcasting will have limitations to stop it from one shotting everything), this may change with Dalinar also gaining surgebinding abilities to compliment his natural talent, but I doubt it due to the differing roles of their respective orders.

 

Amaram... You may have a point, but he is a Son of Honor, and also used to be Dalinar's friend, so I count his arc as belonging to multiple characters.

Helaran... Well, that could be approached from Shallan's perspective as well.

Plus, I didn't say I wanted no more Kaladin, only less from Kaladin and more from other characters. Kaladin's plot now needs much less screen time than what he had in the previous books, while other characters now need more.



EDIT: I don't see why Kaladin is more of a symbol than Dalinar "The Almighty has choosen me!" Kholin, or why being a fighter merits him more screen time than he needs to resolve his plot arcs. Plus, I think you are vastly undervaluing how useful the Ghostbloods' knowledge will be if Shallan manages to not get outwitted.

 

Amaram and Dalinar is pretty much just Sedeas and Dalinar done over, without the personal betrayal. You have to be joking to think Dalinar's personal connection with Amaram is as dramatic and important as Kaladin's. Now he'll certainly be involved (and likely some other characters like Elhokar and Adolin), but it's still going to be about what Amaram did to Kaladin and likely feature the latter's viewpoint when it all goes down. The only other chance is for a Skybreaker to come along and dispense justice there and leading to friction, but I don't think the timing will line up unless Amaram is good at hiding.

 

Regarding the amount of time Kaladin "needs", he really didn't need all that much in WoR as he and his squad landed 'safe' jobs. He had a lot of issues to sort out, but that is still the case (guilt, ruling system, family matters, returning to lead Bridge Four etc). Note on the last one there, with presumably a lot of Bridge Four becoming squires they are going to be the most effective force against voidbringers for quite some time.

 

As far as symbols go, Dalinar has his reputation as honorable that spread throughout the camp and he will presumably become the leader of the radiants, however there have been way too many scenes about Kaladin's antics and how random soldiers (primarily darkeyed) knew who he was and showed respect. I've got the impression that Dalinar is heavily respected as a leader, whereas Kaladin was gaining recognition as a hero. Now they both have their place but in terms of symbolic pull I have to favour Kaladin here, just because there's been so many instances of random people knowing about him.

[Guest]

Saying the Kholinar won't have a personal subplot for Kaladin considering the light/darkeyes dynamic there is rather amusing, I mean that just seems obvious to toss Kaladin into which is why people have predicted it.

 

I feel like you're discounting Kaladin from 2 of those points; namely Shallan and her brother involve Kaladin quite a bit and Dalinar and the Stormfather is really the same for all radiants in that they all need to progress further through their orders. e.g. Shallan needs to tell more truths and Kaladin needs to say a few more oaths. Of these moments in general, Kaladin's have been quite a lot more impactful than anyone else's to the story.

 

Kaladin is portrayed as a great warrior and a great leader (guilt being his major weakness here), a character like that is expected to be important in the coming fights, particularly while there aren't many martial-focused radiants around (Stonewardens, Skybreakers etc). No Szeth doesn't count as a Skybreaker yet. As it stands currently he is clearly the strongest fighter of the Radiants (although this assumes soulcasting will have limitations to stop it from one shotting everything), this may change with Dalinar also gaining surgebinding abilities to compliment his natural talent, but I doubt it due to the differing roles of their respective orders.

 

The Kholinar subplot may not happen in book 3 and moreover, it may not be Kaladin's plot. The oatgates are reopening and Brandon confirmed there would be more travels featured into the next book which implies our characters will go to Kholinar, not just Kaladin. Besides, to think a random soldier no one has ever heard of who may have a Shardblade, but pops by with a tattered uniform will manage to take over Kholinar is rather laughable. Apart from witnessing the cleavage between the light and the dark eyes while likely being forced to choose a camp, there isn't much Kaladin can do. Sorting out Kholinar is not a task for a single man.

 

As for Helaran, some of us believe it is nothing more than a Red Herald. Kaladin did absolutely nothing wrong and while Shallan is able to reason out a man she hates may have had good reasons to kill her brother (such as being attacked), it is strange to think she wouldn't give Kaladin the same leverage. In any advent, I fail to see how important Helaran may still be. 

 

You are right in stating Kaladin's oaths have been, so far, more impact-full in the story, but they don't have to be. This purely was an author's choice and some of us wish for other characters to gain much deserved importance. The first two books focused a lot on Kaladin, with reasons, but going into book 3, many readers wish for other characters to get more screen time. There are 10 orders of Radiants, it is funny to think only the Windrunners are the ones who matter.

 

Kaladin may be a warrior and a leader, he is not a military tactician nor has he proven himself to be capable of leading large armies such as Adolin does. His great weakness is not his guilt, but his inability to see the large picture and his focus on protection which makes him ore suitable to lead small group of people as opposed to large scale armies where he would, invariably, have to make harsh decisions. To think he is all the world needs and he would single-handily save the universe also is rather funny. He is all but one man and he can't do it all by himself, which is why other characters are important. He also be a strong warrior, but Adolin is a much better strategist and military leader than him: he's the one who won the Plateau fight, not Kaladin. 

 

I thus disagree Kaladin is the only worthy character capable of going into battle. We also have Dalinar and Adolin whom are important, but currently have little screen time. 

 

 

Amaram and Dalinar is pretty much just Sedeas and Dalinar done over, without the personal betrayal. You have to be joking to think Dalinar's personal connection with Amaram is as dramatic and important as Kaladin's. Now he'll certainly be involved (and likely some other characters like Elhokar and Adolin), but it's still going to be about what Amaram did to Kaladin and likely feature the latter's viewpoint when it all goes down. The only other chance is for a Skybreaker to come along and dispense justice there and leading to friction, but I don't think the timing will line up unless Amaram is good at hiding.

 

Regarding the amount of time Kaladin "needs", he really didn't need all that much in WoR as he and his squad landed 'safe' jobs. He had a lot of issues to sort out, but that is still the case (guilt, ruling system, family matters, returning to lead Bridge Four etc). Note on the last one there, with presumably a lot of Bridge Four becoming squires they are going to be the most effective force against voidbringers for quite some time.

 

As far as symbols go, Dalinar has his reputation as honorable that spread throughout the camp and he will presumably become the leader of the radiants, however there have been way too many scenes about Kaladin's antics and how random soldiers (primarily darkeyed) knew who he was and showed respect. I've got the impression that Dalinar is heavily respected as a leader, whereas Kaladin was gaining recognition as a hero. Now they both have their place but in terms of symbolic pull I have to favour Kaladin here, just because there's been so many instances of random people knowing about him.

 

We don't know how important Amaram will turn out being nor to which character he'll end up being more relevant. A great part of Kaladin's story arc in WoR was to remove himself of his vengeful feelings with regards to Amaram: to see him go back to these feelings would be anti-climatic.

 

Kaladin's story arc in WoR didn't need all the chapters it had, but going into the second book he fact remains he was the only character most readers had any attachment to. After WoK, most readers had found Shallan tedious to read and most had little sympathy for her. Choosing to dedicate book 2 to her was a risky choice, hence Brandon needed Kaladin to retain a strong presence. Going into book 3 though, the situation is different: readers have now started to invest themselves into other characters than Kaladin. Therefore to have him still be at the center of every single plot lines seem redundant. 

 

He may still have issues, nobody argues against that, we mostly argue as to whether Kaladin needs half of the POV in book 3 to do it. Some of us wish for the POV to be distributed more evenly and wish for the story to be less Kaladin centrist.

 

A lot of characters are bound to be heroes, not just Kaladin who may be the darkeyes champion, but what to make of Adolin who actually killed the man responsible for oppressing so many darkeyes? Or how about Dalinar who is known to give each man the chance he deserves, no matter its eye color? Kaladin won't be the only hero in the story, the Radiants work as a team or so is my impression. If it turns out being just Kaladin's show, in the end, I will be horribly deceive as I do expect to see other characters rise to the occasion, not just Kaladin.

[Mr Horrible]

The Kholinar subplot may not happen in book 3 and moreover, it may not be Kaladin's plot. The oatgates are reopening and Brandon confirmed there would be more travels featured into the next book which implies our characters will go to Kholinar, not just Kaladin. Besides, to think a random soldier no one has ever heard of who may have a Shardblade, but pops by with a tattered uniform will manage to take over Kholinar is rather laughable. Apart from witnessing the cleavage between the light and the dark eyes while likely being forced to choose a camp, there isn't much Kaladin can do. Sorting out Kholinar is not a task for a single man.

 

Ehh, considering Kaladin is the only major character that takes significant issue with the system of rule it's a fair bet to say that a riot in Kholinar that is primarily motivated by the caste system is going to involve him. Particularly when he's back in the same general area and has new authority as a member of the KR.

 

I imagine it'll go down that Kaladin tries to get in contact with either Dalinar or Elhokar after witnessing the mess in Kholinar who will be the people with actual authority in this matter. It is however reasonable to think Kaladin will be involved *because* of his personal interest.

 

As for Helaran, some of us believe it is nothing more than a Red Herald. Kaladin did absolutely nothing wrong and while Shallan is able to reason out a man she hates may have had good reasons to kill her brother (such as being attacked), it is strange to think she wouldn't give Kaladin the same leverage. In any advent, I fail to see how important Helaran may still be. 

 

It will quite possibly not be that huge of an issue, however it still hasn't been dealt with. Also I think Shallan having to be around Kaladin more than she did Amaram might make things worse, she clearly tried to be logical about this but couldn't really change how she felt.

 

Wait, you actually fail to see how Kaladin not disclosing who killed Helaren may be? Now come on, I get that there is an argument that it could be a non-issue, however that's just a possibility. To say you can't see how this might be an issue seems ridiculous.

 

 

You are right in stating Kaladin's oaths have been, so far, more impact-full in the story, but they don't have to be. This purely was an author's choice and some of us wish for other characters to gain much deserved importance. The first two books focused a lot on Kaladin, with reasons, but going into book 3, many readers wish for other characters to get more screen time. There are 10 orders of Radiants, it is funny to think only the Windrunners are the ones who matter.

 

No they don't have to be, however when we are talking about progression as a KR, Kaladin has been the one the story almost revolved around (Kaladin progressing in the moments the story hinges on). Shallan progressed in WoR too, however her intellect was more important than how far she was into her KR order.

 

I think Kaladin is going to continue to time his 'level ups' with key moments in the story, other characters will likely get them too but I don't think all that much will change until book 5. If you note the characters we currently might expect to come through as strong protaganists don't have books until the 2nd half. Jasnah, Renarin, Lift etc all could take similar roles to Kaladin but because they are only getting books in the 2nd half I tend to think the status quo won't change all that much outside of giving Szeth and Eshonai more screentime in books 3-5.

 

 

Kaladin may be a warrior and a leader, he is not a military tactician nor has he proven himself to be capable of leading large armies such as Adolin does. His great weakness is not his guilt, but his inability to see the large picture and his focus on protection which makes him ore suitable to lead small group of people as opposed to large scale armies where he would, invariably, have to make harsh decisions. To think he is all the world needs and he would single-handily save the universe also is rather funny. He is all but one man and he can't do it all by himself, which is why other characters are important. He also be a strong warrior, but Adolin is a much better strategist and military leader than him: he's the one who won the Plateau fight, not Kaladin. 

 

Eh, Kaladin has always been more about protecting his men than winning battles. If you extend his 'men' to all the ex-bridgemen or even further I think you'd see him considering larger pictures. However I was really talking about how Dalinar recognised several times how loyal Kaladin's men were to him, which is what I was talking about with him being a leader.

 

Adolin will need some sort of substantial powerup to be able to compete with voidbringers/unmade that will threaten Radiants, he has quite some way to go here imo. I don't particularly care to get into the whole Adolin vs Kaladin debate, I was originally just talking about why Kaladin would continue to be featured heavily.

 

I thus disagree Kaladin is the only worthy character capable of going into battle. We also have Dalinar and Adolin whom are important, but currently have little screen time. 

 

Kaladin with just a little stormlight was more effective against Szeth than Adolin was. Adolin is very good at traditional duels against other shardbearers however not only are these a non-issue for Szeth/KR, Odium's forces don't seem to follow the whole 'man in armor' type thing.

 

 

 

We don't know how important Amaram will turn out being nor to which character he'll end up being more relevant. A great part of Kaladin's story arc in WoR was to remove himself of his vengeful feelings with regards to Amaram: to see him go back to these feelings would be anti-climatic.

 

Yeah I don't agree with this at all. It was established that Kaladin shouldn't seek out his own justice on Amaram, however it was never shown that Kaladin should forget what happened.

 

 

 

Kaladin's story arc in WoR didn't need all the chapters it had, but going into the second book he fact remains he was the only character most readers had any attachment to. After WoK, most readers had found Shallan tedious to read and most had little sympathy for her. Choosing to dedicate book 2 to her was a risky choice, hence Brandon needed Kaladin to retain a strong presence. Going into book 3 though, the situation is different: readers have now started to invest themselves into other characters than Kaladin. Therefore to have him still be at the center of every single plot lines seem redundant. 

 

Kaladin wasn't at the center of every plot line in Book 2, indeed he barely features in the lines Shallan is involved in.

 

The problem is that with any sort of physical threat currently, Kaladin is heads and shoulders the strongest Radiant which means either he goes up against it (like what happened with Szeth in WoR) or we wait and wonder why Kaladin isn't there. I would imagine the KR would crutch heavily upon him and Bridge Four for large threats purely because of the leg up they got from starting early.

Again this is dependent on Jasnah being unable to soulcast voidbringers/etc like she did the bandits(?) in TWoK.

 

 

He may still have issues, nobody argues against that, we mostly argue as to whether Kaladin needs half of the POV in book 3 to do it. Some of us wish for the POV to be distributed more evenly and wish for the story to be less Kaladin centrist.

 

And I personally like the story being quite Kaladin centric while there are still issues he needs to sort out. Considering the narrative in books 1 and 2 you would think him meeting his parents/Roshone again would be quite a big deal.

 

 

 

A lot of characters are bound to be heroes, not just Kaladin who may be the darkeyes champion, but what to make of Adolin who actually killed the man responsible for oppressing so many darkeyes? Or how about Dalinar who is known to give each man the chance he deserves, no matter its eye color? Kaladin won't be the only hero in the story, the Radiants work as a team or so is my impression. If it turns out being just Kaladin's show, in the end, I will be horribly deceive as I do expect to see other characters rise to the occasion, not just Kaladin.

 

Are you telling me there were no darkeyed soldiers worthy of becoming a captain before Kaladin? I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. Dalinar has certainly become an honourable man but let's not go crazy here regarding him not caring about eye colour.

 

Also I really couldn't give a damnation about Adolin, his story is a lot less compelling than Kaladin's and I don't find it interesting enough to warrant him getting a bunch more screentime on personal issues. In saying that the ramifications of killing Sadeas will be quite interesting.

 

The KR will work as a team, it's just currently that team is heavily lopsided (outside of Jasnah) and while the others might catch up, I think Kaladin's role in the story suggests he'll stay at the forefront whenever some huge physical threat comes in, at least until Eshonai and Szeth develop.

[Guest]

Ehh, considering Kaladin is the only major character that takes significant issue with the system of rule it's a fair bet to say that a riot in Kholinar that is primarily motivated by the caste system is going to involve him. Particularly when he's back in the same general area and has new authority as a member of the KR.

 

I imagine it'll go down that Kaladin tries to get in contact with either Dalinar or Elhokar after witnessing the mess in Kholinar who will be the people with actual authority in this matter. It is however reasonable to think Kaladin will be involved *because* of his personal interest.

 

Then you are giving Kaladin an importance he does not currently have and an authority he does not possess. I never said he wouldn't ve involved in the Kholinar's riot, simply to have this paticular plot centered solely on him seems wrong as he can't be the savior this time, not unless he allies himself to the rebellion which would mean betraying his oaths to Dalinar, again. Since we have been down that road already I doubt it will happen.

 

And how would Kaladin contact Dalinar? He has no means. There are no reasons the lighteyes in charge would allow a perfect stranger with a slave mark to get access to the spanreeds... If anything, they'll treat him fine due to his Shardblade but I doubt his word would be worth much. Again, Kholinar can't revolve solely on Kaladin or perhaps it can, everything is possible, but it would lessen the story, I feel.

 

Jordan understood this when he wrote WoT: Rand was not the one to tie in all the plots. I suspect Brandon will follow the same approach and will move the focus to other characters as we move onto the story.

 

 

It will quite possibly not be that huge of an issue, however it still hasn't been dealt with. Also I think Shallan having to be around Kaladin more than she did Amaram might make things worse, she clearly tried to be logical about this but couldn't really change how she felt.

 

Wait, you actually fail to see how Kaladin not disclosing who killed Helaren may be? Now come on, I get that there is an argument that it could be a non-issue, however that's just a possibility. To say you can't see how this might be an issue seems ridiculous.

 

Shallan is able to forgive a man she despised when she has no reason to. What makes you think she would feel betrayed by Kaladin who has no way of knowing that specific man was her brother? Why wouldn't she be willing to make the same mental juggling with a man she actually likes to some extend? It does not make sense... The whole Helaran deal seems overdone. Kaladin has nothing to reproach himself. He did not have a moral right to tell a woman he barely knew he may have killed her brother. Is he even aware it is Helaran he has killed? Has he even made the link? Even if he did, he owes her nothing and I believe Shallan knows that very well. She may feel slighted at first, but I do feel she is capable of rationalizing the fact Helaran died in a border battle. You can't fault a man for killing an enemy soldier, so yes I do think the entire issue is one massive Red Herald as many readers believe it will be massively important when it could simply end up being insignificant. 

 

Now, I am not saying it won't be an issue, I am simply saying I don't think it will such a big issue as some people think it would be. For instance, if we end up spending 10 chapters on the Helaran issue, I will be surprised and deceived. It is not a plot line worth spending much time on unless there is some hidden clue later relevant to the main narrative. However if it is only used to put a wedge between Kaladin and Shallan, then it will feel contrived for all the reasons I mentioned above.

 

 

No they don't have to be, however when we are talking about progression as a KR, Kaladin has been the one the story almost revolved around (Kaladin progressing in the moments the story hinges on). Shallan progressed in WoR too, however her intellect was more important than how far she was into her KR order.

 

This is exactly what this thread is about: people wanting the story to stop focusing this heavily on Kaladin because, after two books, we felt we have dealt with enough of his issues it isn't interesting anymore to devoid them so much page time. Besides, we are reading the Stormlight Archive and not the Kaladin Archive: it is not just his story, so yes some of us wish other characters would get a larger spotlight. 

 

This also is Epic Fantasy revolving around a bunch of people discovering ancient arts: not the story of the Windrunners. Therefore, Kaladin can't keep monopolizing nearly every single plot line for the remainder of the story. In that small text, I feel (and correct me if I misinterpreted you wrong) as you are even putting Shallan below Kaladin in terms of importance when it is clear she is just as crucial to the climax as he.

 

 

I think Kaladin is going to continue to time his 'level ups' with key moments in the story, other characters will likely get them too but I don't think all that much will change until book 5. If you note the characters we currently might expect to come through as strong protaganists don't have books until the 2nd half. Jasnah, Renarin, Lift etc all could take similar roles to Kaladin but because they are only getting books in the 2nd half I tend to think the status quo won't change all that much outside of giving Szeth and Eshonai more screentime in books 3-5.

 

Or he could not. Kaladin is one of the main characters of the first arcs, other characters are Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin and Szeth, so I expect other characters to start having more moments. Eshonai isn't currently a main character nor was she ever listed as such: she is an interlude side character who is getting flashbacks likely because it is going to give us insight on the Parshendi culture. There is no telling how important she will be to the main narrative. Also, characters such as Renarin are so close to the main action I do think he will get some character development before we reach the second half of SA, especially since Brandon said we would get more of Renarin in book 3. Now does more means "POV" or not, I do not know, but I would not restrict the first arc to be "Kaladin's story with everyone being a side character".

 

Don't forget he is the one going away, so he is likely to be the one with less POV, much like Shallan in WoK who was alone in Karbranth. The main focus of book 3 is Dalinar, so we can expect most of the action will revolve around him and his sons.

 

Eh, Kaladin has always been more about protecting his men than winning battles. If you extend his 'men' to all the ex-bridgemen or even further I think you'd see him considering larger pictures. However I was really talking about how Dalinar recognised several times how loyal Kaladin's men were to him, which is what I was talking about with him being a leader.

 

Yes, I agree which is why Kaladin is unsuited to lead large scale operations: this is not his strong suit. It is not detrimental towards him, it is simple assessing other characters are currently better than him at it. 

 

Look into WoT, Rand may have been the most powerful, but he did not win the battle by himself: without Mat, Perrin and Edgwene, all was lost. Kaladin is not the only important character, but he currently is the most developed one which is why it is logical he should get less going into book 3 while other important characters would get more.

 

 

Adolin will need some sort of substantial powerup to be able to compete with voidbringers/unmade that will threaten Radiants, he has quite some way to go here imo. I don't particularly care to get into the whole Adolin vs Kaladin debate, I was originally just talking about why Kaladin would continue to be featured heavily.

 

Adolin single-handily won the Plateau fight against the Voidbringers without the help of any surgebinding. He also defeated Eshonai in warform which was not a small feat. Kaladin? Kaladin only got there AFTER the fight has been won and only served to kill Szeth. Without Kaladin, sure Adolin and Dalinar would have died, but the army would have still won the fight and Shallan would have still open the oathgate. 

 

You may not care about the character, but you can't ignore his contribution is at least as important to Kaladin when it comes to fights. In fact, I'd argue Adolin was far more important than Kaladin in the last climax. 

 

Kaladin with just a little stormlight was more effective against Szeth than Adolin was. Adolin is very good at traditional duels against other shardbearers however not only are these a non-issue for Szeth/KR, Odium's forces don't seem to follow the whole 'man in armor' type thing.

 

Again, Adolin did much more than win a few "inconsequential duels": he routed out all the most prominent duelist, secured his father a worthy advantage and he won the last fight. Him. Not Kaladin. Him. By being more clever than his enemies. HE did it. Without Adolin, there would have been nobody left to protect by the time Kaladin got there. Szeth was only a thread to Dalinar and later Adolin when he tried to strike at him in grief, but he did not change the outcome of the battle.

 

Adolin did.

 

I am sorry but the Plateau fight is Adolin's victory. He may not be able to fight Szeth, but he sure was able to defeat a large army of Voidbringers. Kaladin has yet to win a decisive large scale battle: last I checked he not managed to pull that one of yet.

 

I'd say that, so far, the one Odium's forces fight we have seen was won by a simple man in a Shards who got smarter than him. I'd also say Aladar had a large role to play as he defeated the other Plateau, with much more loses, but he did win it. Another "ordinary man". I wouldn't discard this easily simple human as it does seem as they still have a large role to play.

 

Yeah I don't agree with this at all. It was established that Kaladin shouldn't seek out his own justice on Amaram, however it was never shown that Kaladin should forget what happened.

 

It is stated Dalinar would take care of it from now on. To go back to Kaladin hating Amaram would be repetitive, which does not mean it won't happen, it simply means I personally hope it won't go back to this. Why? Because it is redundant. He has succeeded in convincing the Kholins and he has moved that responsibility into Dalinar's hands: let him deal with Amaram now.

 

 

Kaladin wasn't at the center of every plot line in Book 2, indeed he barely features in the lines Shallan is involved in.

 

Kaladin was at the center of every single plot except the one involving Shallan traveling to the Shattered Plains and the one involving the Ghostbloods. Many readers even see him as central to the last arc even thought he did nothing else than fight Szeth. Winning the battle, finding and opening the Oathgates weren't his doing, but somehow too many readers focus only on him fighting Szeth, likely because the fight was more grand. Sure Szeth needed to be dealt with, but winning the fight strikes me as more important. YMMV, but just my two cents.

 

The problem is that with any sort of physical threat currently, Kaladin is heads and shoulders the strongest Radiant which means either he goes up against it (like what happened with Szeth in WoR) or we wait and wonder why Kaladin isn't there. I would imagine the KR would crutch heavily upon him and Bridge Four for large threats purely because of the leg up they got from starting early.

Again this is dependent on Jasnah being unable to soulcast voidbringers/etc like she did the bandits(?) in TWoK.

 

Kaladin is the strongest Radiant mainly because he is the ONLY Radiant, which won't last. Starting in book 3, we are getting multiple Radiants per order. He won't remain the only fighting Radiant for much longer. Other will rise up a well. As for relying solely on Kaladin: he won't even be near the center plot line going into the next book. He is the one going away, not the others. I'd say they won't rely on him so much for much of book 3.

 

Jasnah is wandering far away. Her contribution will matter only if and when she makes it there. She also isn't a soldier: I don't expect her to take part into battles, but this may change as the story moves on.

 

 

And I personally like the story being quite Kaladin centric while there are still issues he needs to sort out. Considering the narrative in books 1 and 2 you would think him meeting his parents/Roshone again would be quite a big deal.

 

And many other readers feel the spotlight should move to other characters... we don't all agree on whom, but many wish for less Kaladin's POV going into book 3. Less does not mean no POV, but let's just say he does not need half the POV of book 3. Meeting his parents will important, to him, but it does not require 10 chapters of spotlight.

 

Don't forget that while meeting with Roshone is important to Kaladin, it likely isn't important to the higher scope of things which is why I doubt it will be the main focus of book 3.

 

 

Are you telling me there were no darkeyed soldiers worthy of becoming a captain before Kaladin? I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. Dalinar has certainly become an honourable man but let's not go crazy here regarding him not caring about eye colour.

 

How would you know? Dalinar said he didn't dare raise a darkeye higher than Captain, but he never said it never happened before. We understand it is uncommon, but it does not seem unheard of as, after all, nobody is throwing his shirt away over it. Nobody is seen making a big fuss out of it... Kaladin's rank is unusual, but I doubt he was the first one, else we would have heard other characters complaining on how irregular that is. 

 

As for Dalinar, yes he has been disregarding eye color since his youth: his flashback chapters highlights it when he forms is SWAT team out of every worthy soldiers, no matter their eye color. I'd say of all characters, he's the one he gives the less care about it, but he still have to obliged to his world twisted visions, hence he bends the rule within the tolerable.

 

 

Also I really couldn't give a damnation about Adolin, his story is a lot less compelling than Kaladin's and I don't find it interesting enough to warrant him getting a bunch more screentime on personal issues. In saying that the ramifications of killing Sadeas will be quite interesting.

 

Careful this is your opinion and some of us would disagree with you. I personally find Adolin's story line a 1000 times more compelling than Kaladin flying to Heartstone and meeting Roshone, again, but I am careful enough to state this is my personal preference. Adolin's personal issues are new and refreshing, we are barely starting to know him as a character, while we just spent two books on Kaladin's: there isn't much we haven't broached already. You may disagree, but others would agree with me.

 

I personally do not think Kaladin's remaining issues warrant him such a strong focus going into book 3. As I said, this is epic fantasy and epic fantasy is not a single POV story: it thus needs more characters. I thus wish for other characters to grow in importance. As far as I can tell, there are many readers who do agree with me: Kaladin just isn't the only interesting character. Perhaps he was after WoK, but he isn't anymore after WoR. He may be the most interesting character to you, but he isn't the most interesting character to many other readers.

 

Hence, some of us wish for a shift in spotlight which does not mean we dislike Kaladin, but we feel his issues do not need to be this central for another book.

[AerionBFII he/him]

I'd just like to point out that Kaladin and Dalinar are two very similar characters, picking the most honorable between them will get us nowhere but i think Kaladin is as honorable as Dalinar and vice versa but Dalinar is far more experienced and lived a much fuller life.

If they were both still 20 it would be Kaladin without a second thought but Dalinar has been a father, husband, brother and leader for a long time. He is a lot more experienced than Kal he has also buried his wife and his brother, dealt with heartbreak and reformed himself.

 

Kaladin was disillusioned in a very damaging way when he was very young, he is as honorable as Dalinar except where he has his prejudices which i can't really fault him for but i think he definitely has the potential to overcome them and currently is doing that.

 

 

 

I also think Kaladin is one of the more important characters and he still has huge rolls to play.

Im a little amused by the fact everybody seems to want to be just shot of him now as though he has no future plot relevance...

 

• He has to return to Harthstone and reunite with his family and deal with Roshone.
• Dalinar wanted him to help in Kholinar this will involve all the riots and the trouble the Queen has gotten herself into and im sure the Ardents will be thrilled to realize the Knights Radiant are back.
• Amaram we have definately seen the last of him and his Herald Hard on.
• The Fallout from killing Helaran,
• Restares,it was his idea what happened to Kal and Kal knows it, i can see this bleeding into The SONS.

• Training the Squires from Bridge Four.

[kaellok he/him]

Im a little amused by the fact everybody seems to want to be just shot of him now as though he has no future plot relevance...

 

This is not true at all, and quite frankly, is a bit insulting.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, including by maxal in this page itself, we just want there to be less Kaladin, and more of the other characters that we actually still like (I loved WoK Kaladin; I do not love WoR Kaladin).

 

If you disagree because you think Kaladin is super-wonderful-awesome, fine; we can certainly disagree over that.  But please, please pay attention to what your disagreement actually lies--we have plenty of fodder for you in this thread without you having to make up your own and falsely attribute it to us

 

Seeing Kaladin take all of the worst angsty, mopey, racist viewpoints from WoK and not just carry them over to WoR but magnify them so bloody much made many of his scenes a chore to read.  The duel was amazing; the chasm was perfection.  I can't think of any other time where I was reading Kaladin and happy/excited to see that it was him.  Instead, frequently, when I came to another Kaladin scene I decided it was time to sleep rather than staying up to read more.  If we have more of that Kaladin in Book 3, then I will be wanting to see even less of him--and I have no confidence that Kaladin has worked through his issues, because it seemed that he had come a long way towards doing just that in WoK, only to have them so much worse in WoR.  

 

I don't like reading about angsty people.  I don't like reading about mopey people.  I don't like reading about racists.  I don't enjoy plotlines that focus on people that are all of these things.  Or how being angsty and racist makes his life worse.  I don't care how realistic it may be, or how real a character it makes him--1000 pages of this is boring.  I was actively rooting for Rand al'Thor to die in the WoT series after Book 3 because of the same storming reasons.  

 

I know that my feeling is not shared by everyone, or even the majority.  But even as much as I dislike so much of what Kaladin was in WoR, he is a central character to the series.  He needs to be there.  There are plot lines that must be resolved, that make no sense for anyone else to resolve them.  It would actively harm the story drastically to remove him.  I don't want that.  Nobody that I'm aware of wants that.  We just want less of him.  Let him do what only he can do, and let others handle the rest. 

[DreamEternal]

First, if Kaladin had no prejudice against lighteyes it would be very unbelievable, considering he had all it would take to reach high layers of society if it wasn't for the vorin chaste system, and instead became an expendable slave.

Second, some of us like to read about characters with depression. What you see as "mopeyness" in him I see as something that helps make him simpathetic.

Third, not all of us who want less Kaladin POV chapters dislike the character. It is just that there won't be enough space for all characters if Kaladin takes half of the book, and he doens't need half of the book.

[Guest]

This is not true at all, and quite frankly, is a bit insulting.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread, including by maxal in this page itself, we just want there to be less Kaladin, and more of the other characters that we actually still like (I loved WoK Kaladin; I do not love WoR Kaladin).

 

If you disagree because you think Kaladin is super-wonderful-awesome, fine; we can certainly disagree over that.  But please, please pay attention to what your disagreement actually lies--we have plenty of fodder for you in this thread without you having to make up your own and falsely attribute it to us

 

Seeing Kaladin take all of the worst angsty, mopey, racist viewpoints from WoK and not just carry them over to WoR but magnify them so bloody much made many of his scenes a chore to read.  The duel was amazing; the chasm was perfection.  I can't think of any other time where I was reading Kaladin and happy/excited to see that it was him.  Instead, frequently, when I came to another Kaladin scene I decided it was time to sleep rather than staying up to read more.  If we have more of that Kaladin in Book 3, then I will be wanting to see even less of him--and I have no confidence that Kaladin has worked through his issues, because it seemed that he had come a long way towards doing just that in WoK, only to have them so much worse in WoR.  

 

I don't like reading about angsty people.  I don't like reading about mopey people.  I don't like reading about racists.  I don't enjoy plotlines that focus on people that are all of these things.  Or how being angsty and racist makes his life worse.  I don't care how realistic it may be, or how real a character it makes him--1000 pages of this is boring.  I was actively rooting for Rand al'Thor to die in the WoT series after Book 3 because of the same storming reasons.  

 

I know that my feeling is not shared by everyone, or even the majority.  But even as much as I dislike so much of what Kaladin was in WoR, he is a central character to the series.  He needs to be there.  There are plot lines that must be resolved, that make no sense for anyone else to resolve them.  It would actively harm the story drastically to remove him.  I don't want that.  Nobody that I'm aware of wants that.  We just want less of him.  Let him do what only he can do, and let others handle the rest. 

 

Thank you for this post kaellok. That line in bold made me twitch as well as I did spend quite a bit of time crafting those posts and to reduced them to "you just want Kaladin shoot down" was indeed slightly insulting. I have never said such a thing: I have simply said Kaladin does not need as many POV time as he has had, in the past, to conclude his plot lines.

 

I have also stated him returning to Heartstone, facing Roshone was not important to the higher scope of events. These events are important to him, solely him, but bear little significance to the overall main story arc. They thus don't need to be explore over 20 chapters as I fear they may be. We also don't need to be privy to every single sequence involving Kaladin and to be fair, the Heartstone plot line would probably fit rather well within the interlude. If put within the main story arc, then we are bound to read chapters over chapters of him in Heartstone which is likely to feel like reading his flashbacks, again, with the same angst, again, so no. I'd rather need about something new and if all Brandon has in store for Kaladin is a recap of his old self, then I'd rather it does not overtake the story. 

 

I have also stated the Kholinar plot line can't be resolved by Kaladin alone. I believe I have listed in length why I thought so and while Kaladin will certainly have an interesting role to play in this sequence, he certainly won't be the only player.

 

The fact nearly all plot lines ended up being relevant to Kaladin as a character has been a bother to me as a reader. It wouldn't have bothered me if other characters had received much needed character development, but after two books, I can say the only fleshed out ones are Kaladin and Shallan. I understand this is a result of how Brandon chose to plan his books but, as a reader, I expect to have a larger cast of well developed characters when I dig into Epic Fantasy. When I read a multi-POV story, I expect the several POV to take similar importance and right now, Kaladin far out-weights the other to the point where I, as a reader, want to read even less about him.

 

I don't currently dislike Kaladin, but I don't love him either. He is walking on a dangerous line here: on one side he remains an interesting character I want to keep reading about, on the other he becomes a predictably boring character I have no interest in reading anymore. Rand Al'Thor fell on that side of the line after a few books for me as well as his incessant mental illness was tedious, boring to read and while it was plausible, it lasted too long while being the focus of too many plot lines. Luckily, Jordan had a large cast of rotating main characters, so I could concentrate on the others. Stormlight doesn't currently offer the same. I thus implore Brandon to start developing his other characters more, to stop focusing the story so much on Kaladin because it does not need to and because it would make the experience richer. 

 

Don't you all want to find out more about the other characters? Don't you want to have more than two fleshed out characters? 

 

Kaladin has grown so predictable for me it is hard to conceive so many readers want more of him and not less. Currently, I feel as if every single other character is more unpredictable and interesting, IMHO (even Szeth).

 

 

Second, some of us like to read about characters with depression. What you see as "mopeyness" in him I see as something that helps make him simpathetic.

 

Then we may not be looking for the same reading experience. If Stormlight Archive ultimately ends up focusing solely on Kaladin and his depression, then I will likely leave the fan bandwagon. 

 

Don't forget that what is sympathetic to you isn't to another reader which is why Epic Fantasy usually work with a large cast of characters: nobody wants to read 10 books focusing on one character they don't find endearing. And since we don't all agree on what makes a character endearing, Epic Fantasy writers will often deploy a various cast of main protagonists in order to provide someone for every reader to root for. 

 

Ultimately focusing solely on Kaladin will be negative for the Stormlight Archive. The readers who enjoy his plot line, such as yourself, will be thrilled, but the many more who don't are likely to give up on it. 

 

Jordan understood this very, very well. Not every reader enjoyed Rand, had the story revolved closely on him, many would have stopped reading, but we had other characters to root for. Yes, I was annoyed by him, but I knew after his chapter I would get one revolving around a preferred character.

 

Brandon has yet to implement the concept on Stormlight. I have faith he will, but only book 3 will tell us if I am right or not. Book 3 is about when WoT started to fleshed out more other characters than Rand.

[DreamEternal]

Then we may not be looking for the same reading experience. If Stormlight Archive ultimately ends up focusing solely on Kaladin and his depression, then I will likely leave the fan bandwagon.

I am sorry but I think you misunderstood me. I also want less focus on Kaladin, I just don't think he is not interesting to read about.

[Guest]

I am sorry but I think you misunderstood me. I also want less focus on Kaladin, I just don't think he is not interesting to read about.

 

Deepest apologies then. I indeed misunderstood you. I must also rectify my thoughts, I think Kaladin, as he is currently written, is dangerously on the verge of becoming uninteresting to me, as a reader. This is purely personal, but I find his current story line horribly predictable and, as a result, I have started to emotionally detached myself from him as a character. 

 

However, this problem, if I may refer to it as such, may be solved into the next book. Brandon, after all, managed to make me like Rand again by exploring him from another angle, I have faith in his abilities, but if you ask me what I personally wish to read in book 3, it currently isn't more Kaladin, but less. Just as Rand stop being the sole focus of WoT as the story moved forward, I wish for the same to happen with Kaladin.