What's with all the Kaladin love?

[Pathfinder]

No, the lighteyes are not a race. If a lighteyed and darkeyed person get together and have kids, the ligheyed ones will be full lighteyes and the darkeyes full darkeyes.

 

If a person changes eye colour he changes his status, too.

 

Now if a black African person from Nigeria has an albino son or daughter, with no dark pigment whatsoever, ethnically that person is still black African, isn't a white person. Ethnic discrimination on Roshar would be Shin people or Herdazians are inferior, just as much as the offspring of mixed marriages with these ethnicities is inferior.

 

In Nazi Germany Jews that were converted to Christianity were persecuted just as much as those who adhered to their native beliefs. Didn't help them when they were Germanic looking, tall and blonde with blue eyes either, the parentage was what made you  inferior, not some outer attributes.

 

Just like in the USA, the white majority call people black, even when they have far more than 50% white ancestors and have very light skin colour.

 

Racism is discriminating someone because of his or her biological ancestry, not because of physical attributes. The light- and darkeyed people or Roshar are not different races, so there can not be racism.

Ah good ole Godwin's Law.

 

One of the highprinces had a bastard that had one eye light and one eye dark, what was his rank if his father acknowledged him as heir then?

 

I have another point i was in the middle of typing. I will edit this post when i have articulated it fully 

 

edit: Kaladin was offered by Dalinar to join or leave as he wished. If Kal had such a huge problem with the caste system and authority (which exalted soldiers/warriors) then by rising in the ranks of the military structure should have been seen as just as corruptible and in support of that caste system. Yet he took the rank of captain. Meanwhile he had to be convinced on numerous occasions to trust Dalinar despite continual overwhelming evidence. And when asked why, he did not say it was because Dalinar was a highprince, but because he was lighteyed. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Garfield]

 

 

One of the highprinces had a bastard that had one eye light and one eye dark, what was his rank if his father acknowledged him as heir then?

 

 

 

 

 

And he is shown to be an oddball that doesn t belong anywhere.

 

When a lighteyes has a darkeyed mistress and has lighteyed offspring with her, that offspring will be lower dahn full lighteyes, despite being a half darkeye

[Pathfinder]

And he is shown to be an oddball that doesn t belong anywhere.

 

When a lighteyes has a darkeyed mistress and has lighteyed offspring with her, that offspring will be lower dahn full lighteyes, despite being a half darkeye

Just because it is oddball, does not mean the scenario does not count. a darkeyes gaining a shardblade from killing a shardbearer is almost to a myth level, yet there are laws regarding it, it is part of their society, and it happens to Moash. If it is purely a societal structure, then if the highprince named him heir, what is he?

[Zea mays]

Please pardon my slightly disorganized thoughts as I wade into the discussion.

 

Welp, to me it seems that a major part pf Kaladin's character arc during WoR is slowly getting over his anti-light eyes prejudice. At the start of the book, he is very prejudiced*. He instantly mistrusts all light-eyes (ie, all people in authority). Throughout the book, this is not presented as a laudable attitude. Syl keeps calling him on it. His experiences belie his expectations - Kal expects The Tenner Lighteyes in charge of giving Bridge Four their uniforms to be sour resentful, but he is friendly and affable. Renarin, as Zahel points out, is willing to take instructions from someone socially much below him, and is not afraid to make a fool of himself if training requires it. Adolin is... well he's Adolin. In this case both persons eventually  adjust their attitude for each other (vive le bromance).

Than there's Shallan, and the discussions she and Kal have during the chasm trek. She repeatedly proves to him that there is much more to her than he initially assumed. A light-eyed privileged childhood full of cream and roses? Not so much.

 

I think it was important to show Kaladin get over his horrible experience and come to fully trust and respect Dalinar gradually. It feels more real this way. It also demonstrates something about a truly honorable character - they do not instantly know all the answer. To be truly honorable one has to have the courage to honestly examine oneself, and if one dislikes what one sees - to be willing to change.

 

 

*Perhaps I am being too pedantic, but I would not call it racism. Racism means something very specific in our world. It is a prejudice, and similar in some ways to what Kal shows, but also different. All Alethi are basically of the same "race". The stereotypical  Alethi appearance is described in the book - tall, tan skinned, dark haired, almondine eyes. Characters vary from this (because people are different), sometimes explicitly because they have "foreign blood". Being of a different "race" on Roshar means being Herdazian, Makabaki, horn-eater, etc (The jury is still out about the listeners: Different race or different species? something else? ) Alethi society is somewhat racist in that sense - notice how all the funny foreigners got assigned to Bridge Four? Kaladin is shown to be a lot less racist than the average Alethi this sense.

 

Now there's the eye-color difference, the main divide in the society. Although an inherited physical trait that cannot be altered (unless you have a few colored eye-drops or bond to a magical sword, but never-mind) I see it more as a caste difference  than a race distinction. Will try to elaborate on this when I find the right words

[Pathfinder]

Please pardon my slightly disorganized thoughts as I wade into the discussion.

 

Welp, to me it seems that a major part pf Kaladin's character arc during WoR is slowly getting over his anti-light eyes prejudice. At the start of the book, he is very prejudiced*. He instantly mistrusts all light-eyes (ie, all people in authority). Throughout the book, this is not presented as a laudable attitude. Syl keeps calling him on it. His experiences belie his expectations - Kal expects The Tenner Lighteyes in charge of giving Bridge Four their uniforms to be sour resentful, but he is friendly and affable. Renarin, as Zahel points out, is willing to take instructions from someone socially much below him, and is not afraid to make a fool of himself if training requires it. Adolin is... well he's Adolin. In this case both persons eventually  adjust their attitude for each other (vive le bromance).

Than there's Shallan, and the discussions she and Kal have during the chasm trek. She repeatedly proves to him that there is much more to her than he initially assumed. A light-eyed privileged childhood full of cream and roses? Not so much.

 

I think it was important to show Kaladin get over his horrible experience and come to fully trust and respect Dalinar gradually. It feels more real this way. It also demonstrates something about a truly honorable character - they do not instantly know all the answer. To be truly honorable one has to have the courage to honestly examine oneself, and if one dislikes what one sees - to be willing to change.

 

 

*Perhaps I am being too pedantic, but I would not call it racism. Racism means something very specific in our world. It is a prejudice, and similar in some ways to what Kal shows, but also different. All Alethi are basically of the same "race". The stereotypical  Alethi appearance is described in the book - tall, tan skinned, dark haired, almondine eyes. Characters vary from this (because people are different), sometimes explicitly because they have "foreign blood". Being of a different "race" on Roshar means being Herdazian, Makabaki, horn-eater, etc (The jury is still out about the listeners: Different race or different species? something else? ) Alethi society is somewhat racist in that sense - notice how all the funny foreigners got assigned to Bridge Four? Kaladin is shown to be a lot less racist than the average Alethi this sense.

 

Now there's the eye-color difference, the main divide in the society. Although an inherited physical trait that cannot be altered (unless you have a few colored eye-drops or bond to a magical sword, but never-mind) I see it more as a caste difference  than a race distinction. Will try to elaborate on this when I find the right words

You can be racist to ethnicities, which is what lighteyes darkeyes would be considered. I have known puerto ricans, be condescending to mexicans. i have seen spanards condescending towards puerto ricans. i have seen ugandans being looked down upon by african americans. Racism can exist within a country. They have similar racial orgins, but the racism is still there. Storms, we are a human race but still can be racist to each other. 

[Guest]

That's the definition of racism down below. I doesn't say anything pertaining ancestry or whatsoever. I'd also like to point events such as the Rwanda genocide occurred because white people claimed the Tutsi where superior human beings than the Hutu due to the fact they resembled "white people" the most (paler skin, taller, facial features more reminiscent of traditional white Europeans). It had everything to do with physical characteristics and little with true ancestry. 

 

Have fun reading this book, it clearly speaks how physical attributes, in real life, led to extreme racist which caused one of the most terrible genocide of modern times. In the story, a legal Hutu who has been born looking much like a Tutsi was persecuted, even with proof of her ancestry as all that mattered was what you looked like.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Sunday_at_the_Pool_in_Kigali

 

Therefore, as long as Kaladin chooses to call anyone who's eye color is light a dishonorable liar without giving him the chance to be anything else, he is guilty of racism. The second you discriminate all individuals based on a common physical attribute, you are behaving like a racist. Our world focused on skin color, theirs world on eye color and the second your eyes are light, even if your father is darkeyes, you are within the dahn and not the nahn.

 

As for what makes a "race", here is what wikipedia has to say on the matters:

 

Race, as a social construct, is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics. 

 

I'd say eye color fits right in within this description as race basically is a human construct group. Alethkar has constructed its views in thinking darkeyes and lighteyes weren't the same people, if they were, they'd evoluate within the same castes.

 

rac·ism

ˈrāˌsizəm/

noun

 

1. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

   prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

    

    

    

    

    

 

[Zea mays]

We're getting lost in semanic. The point I wanted to make was that Kaladin started out rather prejudiced, but thorough WOR slowly gets over it.

[Pathfinder]

We're getting lost in semanic. The point I wanted to make was that Kaladin started out rather prejudiced, but thorough WOR slowly gets over it.

we were getting lost in the semantic due to you being pedantic, and i wrote this as a random antic

 

edit: totally written as a meaningless joke, not to instigate anything

Edited January 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Sylveris he/him]

What I think some people meant (and I agree with them) is not that they don't understand why Kaladin hate Lighteyes or that they think his opinion of people like Amaram and Sedaes is unfounded, rather, what we have a problem with is the fact that during most of the books, Kaladin automatically assumes that any Lighteyes he meet is a snobish, silver-spooned lair and a cheat at best.

When Adolin saves the camp follower during WoK (the first time they see each other, without knowing each who is the other), even after seeing him selflessy saving her, all Kaladin can think is that Adolin most have had some personal reason to help her, that it couldn't be altruistic(even though Kaladin was about to do the same thing, help her for no gain). Afterwards, all he think about Adolin is that he was a snob because he treated Kaladin like a message boy, paying him an emerald broam so he would deliver a massage to Reral (and to be honest, given that Kaladin was a slave at the time, Kaladin was far lower than a massage boy on the social scale).

An even worst example is the one given by others earlier on this thread, regarding Dalinar. While Adolin simply did the good/right thing, Dalinar did the unthinkable, trading a Shardblade for the lives of a few thousands bridgemen, and then proceeded to appoint Kaladin as the highest-ranking darkeyes officer in the camp and trusting him with the protection of his family and the king himself (which isn't unthinkable, and was done before, by Dalinar as well, but is still a great honor). Yet, all Kaladin can do is keep on thinking that he will turn on him at any moment, even though he is the one doing the betraying, with his involvement with the assassination plot.

In the end, I can accept Kaladin's "base" opinion of Lighteyes being quite low, it's just human, but what I can't accept is him projecting his experience with few specific individuals onto a huge group of people, especially when some of them did more for him that most darkeyes would. (And he probably met like about 1% of them in his whole life, and I'm pretty sure that most of those he did meet haven't done a thing to him, bad or good).
It might not be racism, but it is still prejudice toward a whole social group based on personal experience with three individuals and their underlings, and is undeserved towards the rest of the group (especially with more than enough counter examples).

Regarding Kalsier, first of all, the nobles-skaa relationship is far worse in any way possible (you don't see Brightlords raping and than killing darkeyes as a social norm...), and even then, not all of them are evil basterds.
Also, people like Sadeas and Elend's father would have likely been evil bastards even if they were lower-born, the title just gave them a greater opportunity.
Finally, I have to say that even through Kelsier was right at the core, his actions weren't necessarily the best. Also, in Mistborn we are given Elend as the exception, but in Stormlight it is far more balanced, while not everyone is Dalinar, Sedaes is hardly the norm... It is far more realistic, and true to both lighteyes and darkeyes. Most people are in the middle, that's why it's the middle.



And to answer the three itself , I personally never loved nor hated Kaladin, my opinion of him usually move between liking him and being annoyed by him.
On one hand, he got some of my favorite scenes in the books. The Tower, the chasm sences (which I really like), the battle against Szeth and more. His supporting cast is also fine, although I never really liked Lopen, his humor doesn't appeal to me, and I always preferred Rock and Teft.
On the other hand, his depression can really harm my enjoyment of him. While it's fine (even great) in small doses, adding to his character, making him both more unique and a realistic human being rather than a generic hero, sometimes, especially in the middle of WoR, it can get really difficult to read. It just creates the feeling that his arc is not progressing, or even going a bit backwards, and with a book this long it is quite the problem.

Hopefully it would be better next book, because I still like him, and some of his possible plot points are really interesting, but I wouldn't mind if he would have less focus this time around.

 

 

Edit: Lol, so many posts since I started writing this comment, took ages to write on my phone (Never again! ).

Might not be as relevant as before...

 

Edit2: Also, wanted to add that despite everything, Kaladin DOES seem to improve by the end of WoR, so there is hope it would only get better...

Edited January 5, 2016 by Sylveris

[Garfield]

What I think some people meant (and I agree with them) is not that they don't understand why Kaladin hate Lighteyes or that they think his opinion of people like Amaram and Sedaes is unfounded, rather, what we have a problem with is the fact that during most of the books, Kaladin automatically assumes that any Lighteyes he meet is a snobish, silver-spooned lair and a cheat at best.

 

 

 

With reason, since Wistiow and his daughter as a child he has never met "normal" lighteye citizens that didn t order him around or treat him bad.

 

He has never lived in a place where there were average low level lighteyed citizens that have a good, normal relationship with their darkeyed neighbours.

 

We, the readers know, that there are lighteyes that work for their money, that don't have servants, in that world, but Kaladin has never lived in a place where he could have made positive experiences with the friendly lighteyes carpenter who fixes his fathers operation table or the reputable lighteyes merchant where he buys cloth for a new dress for his mom.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield

[Meg]

Disagreeing does not invalidate my points. All it means is you disagree. That is semantics. He had plenty of instances where dark eyes abused their station, and inflicted suffering on him and the ones he loved yet he never changed his mantra that lighteyes are the problem. Kal can be like that old fashioned grandpa who everyone loves, but will still say a racial slur randomly at christmas and everyone chooses to ignore, or can be a member of the Klu Klux Klan that actively hung innocent african americans. Either way, it is still racism.

I'd like to point out that despite there were situations when Kaladin (and others) suffered from other darkeyes there is a common ground for the 'community of darkeyes' that is: the lighteyes are superior to us.

Also I'd like to hint at the fact that the Alethi (and the Veden) think themselves "impure" if they don't have the proper black hair. Not the eyecolor is the point if one want to talk about 'races' on Roshar specifically in Alethkar and Veden. Some women even dye their hair black (as far as I remember Ialai, Sadeas' wife, is one of them) to hide their impure bloodlines.

As for Kaladin don't see him more biased than not understandable (though I don't agree with him fully) given his experiences: Roshone, Tien's death (= the first fail of Amaram's as Kaladin had to go through), then as far as we can guess now from the books he overcame that trauma with lots of training and getting better in his job. And just when he seems to be more stable again, *Helaran* happens and Amaram's second and much more vile backstabbing (killing Kaladin's crew and sending him to slavery). That event surely had a re-traumatizing impact on Kaladin which was even intensified by month of slavery and beatings and subsequently the time with Bridge Four.

Only then, at the end of TWoK/beginning of WoR he had the possibility to start to overcome his traumata and as Zea mays said, he did change, slowly but visible. With relapses, yes, but that is normal, given he has nobody to professionally care about him.

As as side note: I personally don't like Shallan (mostly) but I do like especially the scenes where she and Kaladin *smashed* and she clipped his wings.

---

A further side note and off topic: That posting doesn't mirror all of my thoughts and it might have a crude tone though that is not intended. Where I want to go: Not everybody who wants to participate here or is participating -- as counts for me -- has the means to write elaborate posts. That is caused (or might be caused) by the lack of time, the lack of ability (for example to concentrate over a longer time), the lack of proper knowledge of the English language or other issues. Honestly, sometimes it seems to me that such people like myself are not taken seriously just by them not being that eloquent or lengthy. I'd wish for more tolerance and probably bring into question some term that might be used wrongly.

I apologize for that off topic note but that weights heavily on my mind for some months now.

[Sylveris he/him]

 

With reason, since Wistiow and his daughter as a child he has never met "normal" lighteye citizens that didn t order him around or treat him bad.

 

He has never lived in a place where there were average low level lighteyed citizens that have a good, normal relationship with their darkeyed neighbours.

 

We, the readers know, that there are lighteyes that work for their money, that don't have servants, in that world, but Kaladin has never lived in a place where he could have made positive experiences with the friendly lighteyes carpenter who fixes his fathers operation table or the reputable lighteyes merchant where he buys cloth for a new dress for his mom.

 

Which is exactly why I said that while I understand why he develop his hatred, and that it is a normal human thing, it is not an excuses for his beheivor towards lighteyes, especially thous who not only didn't do anything bad to him (the clerk in the begging of WoR for example) but also toward thous who did good things for him (Dalinar, as mentioned many times before).

As Pathfinder said earlier, after Dalinar paid for his and his men's freedom with one of the most expansive items in the world, he offered them a choice whether to join him or go on their way, yet Kaladin chose to stay. Despite that, he spent most of the book claiming that Dalinar would betray him just because he is a lighteye, even through Dalinar never gave him any reason to believe he would, other than being a lighteye. (He even ends up being the one during the betraying... until he comes to his senses just in time, in one of the greates scenes in the book!)

[Pathfinder]

---

A further side note and off topic: That posting doesn't mirror all of my thoughts and it might have a crude tone though that is not intended. Where I want to go: Not everybody who wants to participate here or is participating -- as counts for me -- has the means to write elaborate posts. That is caused (or might be caused) by the lack of time, the lack of ability (for example to concentrate over a longer time), the lack of proper knowledge of the English language or other issues. Honestly, sometimes it seems to me that such people like myself are not taken seriously just by them not being that eloquent or lengthy. I'd wish for more tolerance and probably bring into question some term that might be used wrongly.

I apologize for that off topic note but that weights heavily on my mind for some months now.

Not to put you on the spot Meg, but you did quote my post when you mentioned this further aside. Did you feel my statement applied to not taking people seriously? Im am not intending to cause a fight, belittle you or invalidate how you feel, just want to better understand what it is applying to. 

[Oversleep]

I think I need to explain something: I am not discussing whether Kaladin's prejudice is right or wrong, grounded or ungrounded. I take issue with claiming something racism when it's clearly not.
For example, we do not call prejudice against a gender 'racism', but 'sexism'. And people of the same gender have much more in common than simply sharing the hue of eyes. But we're not calling that particular prejudice 'racism', are we?

Lighteyes and darkeyes are the same race. Part of the population has light eyes, part of it dark eyes. By this feature the population is divided into two main castes (casts? I am not sure): higher and lower. Then these two classes are further divided into ten subdivisions each.

If Brandon decided to name lighteyes 'ruling caste' and darkeyes 'working caste' while keeping everything else, we would not be having this discussion right now. It would be obvious that the thing going on is about people of lower status hating those of higher status.

[Garfield]

If Brandon decided to name lighteyes 'ruling caste' and darkeyes 'working caste' while keeping everything else, we would not be having this discussion right now. It would be obvious that the thing going on is about people of lower status hating those of higher status.

 

 

 

Indeed. That s like in pre WWI Europe, where you had aristocracy and and normal citizens, and the chance for the average citizen to be ennobled were near zero. Despite that fact the aristocracy of Europe was not a different race than the normal citizens.

[Pathfinder]

I think I need to explain something: I am not discussing whether Kaladin's prejudice is right or wrong, grounded or ungrounded. I take issue with claiming something racism when it's clearly not.

For example, we do not call prejudice against a gender 'racism', but 'sexism'. And people of the same gender have much more in common than simply sharing the hue of eyes. But we're not calling that particular prejudice 'racism', are we?

Lighteyes and darkeyes are the same race. Part of the population has light eyes, part of it dark eyes. By this feature the population is divided into two main castes (casts? I am not sure): higher and lower. Then these two classes are further divided into ten subdivisions each.

If Brandon decided to name lighteyes 'ruling caste' and darkeyes 'working caste' while keeping everything else, we would not be having this discussion right now. It would be obvious that the thing going on is about people of lower status hating those of higher status.

We are both members of the human race, but if i was african american, and you were caucasian you could be racist towards me. We are the same race. 

[Pathfinder]

Race, as a social construct, is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]} First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, by the 17th century race began to refer to physical (i.e. phenotypical) traits. The term was often used in a general biological taxonomic sense,^[7] starting from the 19th century, to denote genetically differentiated human populations defined by phenotype.^[8][9]

Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies^[10] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived traits.

 

• Class (social), the hierarchical arrangement of individuals in society, usually defined by wealth and occupation

 

Class does not reference physical trait. Race does. Light eye and dark eye is a physical trait. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Garfield]

 

by the 17th century race began to refer to physical (i.e. phenotypical) traits.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but ONE rather small phenotyical difference doesn t justify calling it two races.

 

 

 

Apart from the very different skin coloration, that has a biological reason and function (high UV protection vs low UV protection in caucasiand to enable us to make enough vitamin B with less UV light) Black Africans have different facial features, hair structure and it turned out that we white caucasians have a small percentage of Neanderthal genes that black Africans dont have.

 

So a Nigerian person and a Norwegian do not only look differently in a small detail, we have different genetic makeup due to different environmental needs.

 

You would not call a blond person from Scandinavia and a dark haired Italian different races.

[Meg]

Not to put you on the spot Meg, but you did quote my post when you mentioned this further aside. Did you feel my statement applied to not taking people seriously? Im am not intending to cause a fight, belittle you or invalidate how you feel, just want to better understand what it is applying to.

No, honestly I thought it enough to put the line and to say that it is "off topic" to ensure that nobody would see that "further side note" related to your post(s). It's a general remark as I thought is clear to the readers.

[Oversleep]

And by that definition darkeyes and lighteyes are the same race. One trait is too little to declare them different races.

Before somebody pulls "but we're defining human races based only on skin color" I'd like to remind that many different traits are correlated alongside the skin color.

But Alethi share almost everything. If you take eyes out of equation, you wouldn't be able to tell between darkeye and lighteye. In our world, if you take the skin color out of equation, you're still able to distuingish, for example, Native American (Indian...Indiana? Indie?) from Mongolian.


Edit: Ninja'd by Garfield

Edited January 5, 2016 by Oversleep

[Pathfinder]

Sorry, but ONE rather small phenotyical difference doesn t justify calling it two races.

 

 

 

Apart from the very different skin coloration, that has a biological reason and function (high UV protection vs low UV protection in caucasiand to enable us to make enough vitamin B with less UV light) Black Africans have different facial features, hair structure and it turned out that we white caucasians have a small percentage of Neanderthal genes that black Africans dont have.

 

So a Nigerian person and a Norwegian do not only look differently in a small detail, we have different genetic makeup due to different environmental needs.

 

You would not call a blond person from Scandinavia and a dark haired Italian different races.

But they are different ethnicities correct? And there are slurs towards italians, scandinavians, africans, mexicans, arabs, and so on. Take your pick. What would you term those slurs towards those groups? Classism?

 

edit: i have met puerto rican's that claim they can identify a mexican by their hair. Not the color of the hair mind you, but the way the hair rests. if THAT can separate a group, why cannot eye color? An eye color btw that breeds true. Two blonde haired individuals on earth, can still produce a brown haired child if its in their ancestry. Not so with Roshar. Light and light gets light, dark and dark gets dark. Only changes if you mix the two. 

 

No, honestly I thought it enough to put the line and to say that it is "off topic" to ensure that nobody would see that "further side note" related to your post(s). It's a general remark as I thought is clear to the readers.

I gotcha, I just wanted to be certain so i can be supportive to your feelings. it clearly upset you, so i wanted to be understanding. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Sylveris he/him]

Honestly, is this whole argument really worth it?

Race as a definition is very problematic and depends on one's point of view, and therefor Racism is even more difficult to define (in a non-ambiguous and widely enough accepted way).

 

In the end what those who mentioned racism in the first place meant is that Kaladin is negatively-biased and has a lot of prejudice against lighteyes. You can call it racism if you think it fits, you can call it 'eyeism', but right now this argument is going nowhere and a battle of semantics can't be won when talking about such ambiguous terms and definitions.

 

Just my two cents.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Sylveris

[Pathfinder]

This will probably get me crucified but i think what it comes down to it is racism is an ugly word. Classism not so much. One is associated with years of pain both emotional and physical, another is associated with rebellion and defiance. When people identify with a character, they see a part of themselves in it. So calling a character you identify with, a negative connotation, it is felt to be directed at the fan of the character. So there is a need to defend the character, thereby defending oneself. So I doubt this will ever be resolved. 

[Garfield]

This will probably get me crucified but i think what it comes down to it is racism is an ugly word. Classism not so much.

 

 

Classism was a very ugly word when class differences were more pronounced than they are in Europe today.

 

The French and Russian revolution were triggered by "classism". Neither absolutistic France nor Russia needed physical characteristics as a distinguishing feature to create a society like this. And India still has it today without the need for physical characteristics to base it on.

[Guest]

While it's fine (even great) in small doses, adding to his character, making him both more unique and a realistic human being rather than a generic hero, sometimes, especially in the middle of WoR, it can get really difficult to read. It just creates the feeling that his arc is not progressing, or even going a bit backwards, and with a book this long it is quite the problem.

 

 

Yes. This is an excellent way to state it and it illustrates how I feel about Kaladin. Despite appearances, I do not hate him, but I do not love him either. I used to, back in WoK, but I disliked how he ended dealing with his issues in WoR, mostly because I feel he will never progress much further. 

 

As I stated in one of my posts (and it perhaps got buried within), I enjoy characters who are evolving and right now, I feel as if the majority of the POV is dedicated to the one character who refuses to evolve. It may be realistic, but it isn't interesting to read, to me as a reader. I can only speak for my personal tastes and not for others, of course. 

 

 

Edit2: Also, wanted to add that despite everything, Kaladin DOES seem to improve by the end of WoR, so there is hope it would only get better...

 

This is a problem for me and may be the main cause of my current open disinterest for Kaladin's story arc. I too felt he had, finally, progressed by the end of WoR. I have happy, glad but I then read the SA3 excerpt and he was back to being depressed, self-pitying, negative individual he was all through WoR and I thought: "Please NO.".  I disliked the Kaladin excerpt. 

 

I have spend an entire book dealing with Kaladin's mental problems and while I appreciate the intake on depression, I don't want to read another book focusing on this aspect. I got deeply afraid Brandon intended to write just that, again.

 

This does not mean I don't want to read about Kaladin anymore, I simply do not wish his depression and his mental issues to be the main focus of next book. At this point in time, I also feel other characters have gotten more interesting than Kaladin which is why I plead for a change of focus.

 

 

A further side note and off topic: That posting doesn't mirror all of my thoughts and it might have a crude tone though that is not intended. Where I want to go: Not everybody who wants to participate here or is participating -- as counts for me -- has the means to write elaborate posts. That is caused (or might be caused) by the lack of time, the lack of ability (for example to concentrate over a longer time), the lack of proper knowledge of the English language or other issues. Honestly, sometimes it seems to me that such people like myself are not taken seriously just by them not being that eloquent or lengthy. I'd wish for more tolerance and probably bring into question some term that might be used wrongly.

I apologize for that off topic note but that weights heavily on my mind for some months now.

 

May I ask why you feel your posts or another less frequent posters posts aren't taken seriously?  I personally read all posts and I comment on those I feel I have something relevant to add. However, just like everyone, I work, I have children, I answer when I have time and yes, I do cherry pick on what I do answer to, except when I am not working as right now. As I am one of those posters who tends to write lengthy posts, I feel targeted by this one so I'd wish to hear more of your thoughts on this.

 

I sincerely do not mean to be dismissive towards other posters so I wish to know if I am doing something wrong here.

 

I'd also like to point out I am not an English speaker myself which is obvious from my non-standard way to state my thoughts.