What's with all the Kaladin love?

[Oversleep]

The thing is that the main caste division is darkeye/lighteye. So there is a caste of darkeyes and a caste of lighteyes. Then there are subdivisions of darkeyes (Nahn) and lighteyes (Dahn). So my argument still holds true.

I already disproved that argument of yours that Kaladin has a problem with people if their eyes are light. Nope. He's got a problem because they're in higher caste and the eyecolour happens to be a distuingishing characteristict of that caste. If the caste system was based on the height, he would have got a problem with people over 1,80 m. If it was based on, I dunno, hair color, he would claim blondes dishonorable.

It's about the caste itself, not what their characteristic happens to be. (Like I previously proposed thought experiment with tattoos instead of eyecolor, but you didn't answer how then Kaladin would be a racist)

[Garfield]

It is racism because although castes do exist, it is not the caste that Kaladin has a problem with. If i recall correctly there are 10 dahns for dark eyes,

 

 

 

Kaladin is high raking for a darkeyes. He has no reason to resent higher ranking darkeyes because he was not the object of darkeyes on darkeyes social unjustice.

[mosaab]

the dahn and nahn are about social status you can rise and fall within it, but there is a clear class distinction between lighteyes and darkeyes.

 

and kaladin anly misstrust lighteyes in positions of great authurity.

 

kaladin has lighteyes under his authority now. does he treat them deffirently ? does he sneer and look down on them ?

 

when kaladin saved dalinars army, did he say the only reason i am doing this is becouse there are darkeyes among them ?

[Pathfinder]

In the books, the kids he grew up with despised him because he was of a higher dahn/nahn than them. That is regarding the caste. The definition of a caste is as follows:

 

"each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society, distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity or pollution and of social status."

 

Caste by definition prescribes to the class you are born into, not the race. The kids from his own town hated him due to his stature in the social order. He did not, because then he would be hating himself. By dividing people by light eyes and dark eyes in his mind, he was able to support his own prejudices. Gaz and others like him were darkeyes who treated Kal and his friends horribly. Yet that did not support Kal's worldview that all lighteyes were reprehensible, so he disregarded it. 

 

I don't know how much simpler this has to be. Caste is literally referring to class. Race is literally referring to a group with a common feature or features. Nahns and Dahns are caste, Light eyes and dark eyes are race.

[Femme she/her]

You know, throughout the two books Kaladin's thoughts and treatment of lighteyes always made complete sense to me. Not that the way he felt about them or treated them was right, but it made sense that he would feel that way.

 

Yes, we probably all groaned and sighed when he went on another rant about how all lighteyes were no good, but it was completely in-character for him. He had a right to feel mistrustful of lighteyes due to his experiences in life, just like Moash had a right to have a grudge against the king because of what happened to his grandparents. 

 

We had to experience his internal struggle for his mistrust for them, it would've been weird if he didn't have an internal struggle after watching his brother die/being sent to slavery/being forced to run towards his death etc., at the hands of lighteyes.

 

Kaladin's 20 years old right? He's practically a kid, and I've always seen him as a kid throughout both books. A naive, broken kid with resolve and determination who we're watching grow stronger, wiser, and more accepting. 

[mosaab]

kaladin want equality, he didnt like it when he was treated differently becouse of his dahn number,or his eye color.

 

can anyone refute that ?

[Pathfinder]

My point has nothing to do with whether kal was right or wrong, good or bad for holding the beliefs he did. My point isn't even whether or not it was justified. My point is merely in response to the statement that claimed Kal's issue was with the caste system, not race. As I showed based on the definition in each, and scenes in the book, he clearly focused his worldview regarding lighteyes vs darkeyes. Which is in that world's analogue a race issue. Therefore, take whatever connotation you wish on the term, but it is racism.

[Mr Horrible]

This is rather aggressive now isn't it?

 

What kaellok refers to as racist is Kaladin prejudiced visions of the lighteyes. We understand he was betrayed by two supposedly honorable individuals who's eye color was light, but he then transposes this sentient to every single individual without allowing them the chance to prove their worth. He blatantly decides all lighteyes are pieces of scum based on his rather limited experience with two despicable human beings. While his behavior is understandable, some readers feel he pushed much farther then he should have had. Dalinar Kholin is a man who came forward with a high reputation, just as Amaram, but unlike Amaram he proved his worth in an unthinkable way: he gave away his Shardblade for Kaladin and he agreed to all of Kaladin none conventional demands. The second Dalinar plunged his Shardblade into the ground and offered to Sadeas in exchange for the bridgemen, Kaladin should have trusted him, but he didn't. He carried on his negative sentient, looking for all possible ways to reinforce it, to justify it and even when he put in front of the living proof one lighteyes can be honorable, he still refuses to believe it. 

 

This attitude he is exhibiting is indeed akin to racism as he is effectively putting the darkeyes as superior more moral human beings and he is discriminating negatively against them by deciding their eye color made them to be dishonorable liar. Worst, even when proven to be wrong, he remains into his prejudice.

 

This was horribly grating to some readers. I insist on the some as not all readers, of course agree, but I'll admit there is a growing negative sentient concerning Kaladin taking over so much of the main narrative. 

 

For my part, I'll admit I was not overly annoyed with Kaladin (in fact I was rather pleased with his story arc for the first 3 parts) until part 4 and all its boring chapters featuring Kaladin being depressed in prison and chasm scenes which I strongly disliked. I also disliked the Stormlight Archive 3 excerpt as it showed Kaladin has not evolved nor grown: he is still stuck within his negative emotions which makes me fear his POV will carry the same self-pitying I disliked in the last parts of WoR. I understand he is depressed, but I don't personally find static characters who never outgrow their issues interesting to read: Rand Al'Thor got uninteresting for this very reason. He kept on ranting about women who died for his cause: he was not responsible for their death, but he kept blaming himself which quickly became insufferable as it just lasted too long. Rand got interesting again when he stop the self-pitying. 

 

In the case of WoT, the interesting thing is, by the end of the series, most readers favorite character was not the hero, Rand, but Mat. I don't think I need the support of hard numbers to claim this one. Why Mat? He was more fun to read, he starts up with many flaws (he's a drunk, a gambler and an irresponsible player with a strong disdain for nobility) but slowly worked it up. In other words he grew while Rand remained rather static for a long chunk of the story, always stuck with the same issues.

 

Therefore, I'd say the biggest problem I have with Kaladin, excluding the fact I'd like to see other characters grow, is I fear his arc will grow static and repetitive much like Rand in WoT.

 

I don't find the comparison between lighteyes and darkeyes to real racism pleasing, you are leaving out so much context on both sides of the comparison.

 

Kaladin interacts with significantly more than 2 lighteyes (we have what, 5 or so in the TWoK that Kaladin is shown to interact with)? Indeed as others have pointed out, Dalinar is shown to be different than the other people with authority in Alethkar and even then it wasn't until the shardblade scene that Kaladin can know he's different to Amaram. Afterwards we see (mostly) that Kaladin's thoughts about lighteyes are mostly about the rest of them and acknowledges Dalinar as honourable (with Syl's prodding). Now this does change a bit after the imprisonment when Kaladin thinks it's better if Elhokar dies (and Dalinar the inherits the throne). Also during this period Dalinar is covertly testing Amaram, however the problem with this is he was actually reasonably final with Kaladin if you read through the last interaction they had (Dalinar talking about how all those witnesses couldn't have lied), that was poorly handled on Dalinar's part when he knows how big an issue this is for Kaladin and then leaves him in the dark.

 

Kaladin clearly takes it too far sometimes (notably with random lighteyes like the horse trainer or Adolin), however it's worth noting that from what we've seen the problems with Alethkar seem to stem from the top-down and the caste system has absolutely enabled the worst individuals Kaladin has met. Indeed it's rather clear that something is going to happen along these lines, particularly with Kaladin likely to become lighteyes permanently as he progresses as a KR, we're going to see the social hierarchy change.

 

Finally I thought it was rather obvious that these problems within Kaladin and Alethkar society are being set up for change/resolution. Kaladin still has lots of work to do but this is spelled out to us multiple times (e.g. Kaladin getting depressed about not being able to save everyone and Teft telling him to pull his head in). The idea that he will end up struggling with the same problems he's facing now seems ridiculous to me when you consider the way the narrative has progressed and what's remaining for Kaladin to progress as a KR.

 

He is.  As maxal said, he sees someone is a lighteyes, and then mistrusts them and assumes they are terrible people.  Just like when a white guy sees a black man and assumes they are a criminal.  Or when a lighteyes sees a darkeyes and assumes they are stupid.  The fact that there are other racists (or eyeists if you prefer) does not in any way excuse Kaladin's actions--especially when Kaladin is supposed to be an honorable, good person.  Him having reasons for it does not excuse the fact, any more than someone who was beaten near to death by a gang of black people excuses someone from hating everyone that's black for the rest of their lives.  It's a character flaw that Kaladin for much of WoR seems to view as a virtue.

 

As to why people like Kaladin--YES!  People like Kaladin for the very reasons that I dislike him.  And people dislike Shallan for the very reasons that I like her.  Of course, we tend to use different descriptors (ie, I call Kaladin mopey and angsty instead of depressed.  They say she's a Mary Sue that has everything come easily to her, and I say she uses her Radiant powers to assume the persona of someone who already has those skills and does a damnation good job of simply pretending to be them--which I know from my own personal life and experiences is a real thing that really happens.)

 

The problem that I really have is that Kaladin got a lot of time in WoR, and there was a lot more of the aspects of his character that I find boring/unlikable on full display than in WoK.  I saw him walking the same basic character arc from one book to the next.  Others tend to say (and I believe that Sanderson himself mentioned this in a WoB) that the underlying issues in WoK were never dealt with, and so it's all one continuous arc.  This makes sense.  I understand this.  I also understand that Dostoyevsky is considered a fantastic author, but I don't enjoy his works at all.  So I want there to be less of the parts I'm not enjoying, and more of the ones that I do.  Which is basically what everyone is saying

 

It is interesting how you always have black people on the receiving end of racism in your examples where it should be the other way around based on the social power dynamic between darkeyes and lighteyes. However as I said before I *really* don't like this comparison as it is not the same scenario.

 

The thing is every Alethi character we've seen in the story has been "eyeist" to some degree, even Dalinar who is held up as another honourable character suffers from it as I said previously (never promoting darkeyes to high ranks in his army before Kaladin). So I thought it was rather... odd that you are ok with implicit "eyeism", but when Kaladin is explicit about it you dislike it, that logic seems borderline ridiculous to me. Really the only lighteye character we've seen that could be considered 'neutral' may be Jasnah, just based on how she doesn't prescribe to a lot of Alethi traits.

 

Kaladin does seem to view his distrust as a virtue in much of WoR, I agree. However he is pretty clearly shown to be the character in the wrong here (for random lighteyes). There are two issues at play though; the social power hierarchy in Alethkar (Kaladin's disapproval is 'right) and Kaladin's distrust of lighteyes (shown to be, for the most part, wrong). This is of course again complicated by the fact that there are many lighteyes that Kaladin shouldn't trust, he just isn't around them much in Dalinar's camp.

[Meg]

@ Kaellok: Out of curiosity: How much time (not in *books* but in days/months/years) would you concede Kaladin to heal from the mental wounds he took?

[mosaab]

can someone quote the conversation where kaladin says power corrupt and that even if the darkeyes where in charge the same thing would happen from TWOK .

[kaellok he/him]

It is interesting how you always have black people on the receiving end of racism in your examples where it should be the other way around based on the social power dynamic between darkeyes and lighteyes. However as I said before I *really* don't like this comparison as it is not the same scenario.

 

The thing is every Alethi character we've seen in the story has been "eyeist" to some degree, even Dalinar who is held up as another honourable character suffers from it as I said previously (never promoting darkeyes to high ranks in his army before Kaladin). So I thought it was rather... odd that you are ok with implicit "eyeism", but when Kaladin is explicit about it you dislike it, that logic seems borderline ridiculous to me. Really the only lighteye character we've seen that could be considered 'neutral' may be Jasnah, just based on how she doesn't prescribe to a lot of Alethi traits.

 

This thread is specifically about Kaladin, and in particular, why we don't like him.  If you want me to write a 100-page work on what is wrong with Alethi society, let me know, and I'll get back to you on that.  Because I could easily fill 100 pages of all the wrongs and ills that they perpetrate (which means it's realistic, and well-written.)  Spoiler: This includes eyeism both explicit and implicit, as well as the strict line drawn between what is appropriate for each gender (and especially the concept of the 'safehand.')

 

What I specifically dislike is when an honorable hero is explicitly prejudiced towards an entire group of people simply because some of them did a really good job of destroying his entire life, and then believes that prejudice to be a virtue.  This is not a problem with the writing, because, as you say, Sanderson does a very good job of writing the balance between the two.  This is, again, specifically a problem that I have with a character--this trait of his is one of the reasons why I do not like Kaladin.  It is why I cannot identify with Kaladin at the same level that others do. 

 

@ Kaellok: Out of curiosity: How much time (not in *books* but in days/months/years) would you concede Kaladin to heal from the mental wounds he took?

I concede nothing.  I have no idea of knowing how long it would take.  Does it make me a terrible person to not like someone who has been beaten down by life and is now bitter and angry about it?  My grandpa was such a man; he never got better.  So Kaladin might never get better.  And if he doesn't, I wouldn't consider him a good person.  

 

 

Oversleep said:

Sooo... You're basically saying "Arguments doesn't matter, I am right because I am"? And naming the thing correctly is important, because right now we're making a thought experiment and removing the eye colour from Roshar. Situation stays the same, nothing changes. Now we're having a "superior caste" and "inferior caste" and inferior ones doesn't think highly of those superior. We can replace eye colour with tattoos on forehead to be able to distinguish people instantly to keep that particular feature of vorin caste system. Is it still racism to you? Based on what?

 

No.  Not even a little bit.  Please refer to any other argument I have made in this thread before putting words in my mouth.  I am basically saying, "If you hate people because of the way they look, without knowing anything else about them, then it doesn't matter how justified you think you are--you are wrong." This thought of mine extends far beyond this, too--if there is any shared trait that someone has, and you truly hate them for it without knowing anything else, then you are wrong.  Like, evil-wrong.  

 

That's my viewpoint on life, though.  I've tried to make that very clear, which is apparently where you got confused.  My philosophy of life allows you to hate or be furious at those who have wronged you, but not others.  Be mad at who you're mad at, and nobody else.  It's incredibly simple.  That's why I don't care what you call it; it doesn't matter.  It's the attitude that matters, it's the attitude that upsets me, and it's the attitude of Kaladin that makes me not like Kaladin.  

 

Very important caveat that I adored WoK Kaladin, and sympathized with him greatly.  It is very much after WoR that my opinion of him as soured greatly, as I learned more of who he is without the thought of death or worse looming over him every second.  When he didn't have time to indulge in unnecessary hatred, he didn't.

 

It seems the debate is devolving far too much into "is Kaladin racist or not?" and I simply don't care.  It's the attitude that I have described half a dozen times or more now that I have the problem with.  I'm done with this thread, because this post was incredibly difficult to write and remain civil, and that shouldn't be the case (I also tried not posting anything, but was unable to leave it alone, either.)

 

I apologize if I've offended any of you with my sternly written words.  Like most, I'm passionate about my beliefs of the way the world should work, and what is considered honorable or good.  Seeing that debate entirely derailed over a pedantic argument about classism versus racism, with strident defenders refusing to give an inch of ground or concede a point isn't fun or entertaining.  It's infuriating.  So, I'm done with this thread.  Please read what I've written, and take it at full, 100% face value.  I know you all mean well, and are simply defending a character that you love from what you see as undeserved slander.  

[Garfield]

I usually associate racism to people, who have prejudice against another ethnicity despite not having had any serious negative experiences with them.

 

Kaladin had never been exposed to a lot of lighteyes. He didn't grow up in a city where there are lots of tenner lighteyes citizens who work as hard to earn their living than their darkeyed neighbours, where there are rich darkeye merchants who marry low lighteyes etc.

 

The only lighteyes he knew until he was 15 were the local citylord Wistow and Laral in his earlier childhood and then years of Roshone's tyranny.

 

Then later in Amaram's army, it seems that they practice race seggregation in their armed forces, they had seperate units for the two groups, so Kaladin's chance to be exposed to nice lighteyes who treat him as an equal wasn't that big either, the lighteyes there were the superiors that ordered him and his men around and not all of them were competent. At that point he was still willing to comply to the system and accept his given place in society, despite the discrimination.

 

Then of course the Amaram affair and his subsequent slavery as a brigeman under Sadeas. No exposure to nice lighteyes there and a valid reason to get seriously paranoid about lighteyes in power and hate for them.

 

 

 

 

Kaladin's opinion toward lighteyes is not racism, it's from his pov a valid opinion based on his collective experience with lighteyes. Dalinar is the first lighteyes since Laral and Wistiow that he got involved with and has shown any sympathy or respect for him, so why should he trust lighteyes?

Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield

[AerionBFII he/him]

kaladin want equality, he didnt like it when he was treated differently becouse of his dahn number,or his eye color.

 

can anyone refute that ?

 

“I’m no lighteyes,” Kaladin said, spitting to the side.

“You hate them so much.”

“I hate their lies,” Kaladin said. “I hate it that I used to believe they were honorable.”

“And would you cast them down?” Sigzil asked, sounding curious. “Rule in their place?”

“No.”

This seemed to surprise Sigzil. To the side, Syl finally appeared, having finished frolicking in the winds of the highstorm. He always worried—just a little—that she’d ride away with them and leave him.

“Have you no thirst to punish those who have treated you so?” Sigzil asked.

“Oh, I’m happy to punish them,” Kaladin said. “But I have no desire to take their place, nor do I wish to join them.”

“I’d join them in a heartbeat,” Moash said, walking up behind. He folded his arms across his lean, well-muscled chest. “If I were in charge, things would change. The lighteyes would work the mines and the fields. They would run bridges and die by Parshendi arrows.”

“Won’t happen,” Kaladin said. “But I won’t blame you for trying.”

Sigzil nodded thoughtfully. “Have either of you ever heard of the land of Babatharnam?”

..................................

“I doubt many would disagree. But I mention these horrors for a purpose. You see, it has been my experience that no matter where you go, you will find some who abuse their power.” He shrugged. “Eye color is not so odd a method, compared to many others I have seen. If you were to overthrow the lighteyes and place yourselves in power, Moash, I doubt that the world would be a very different place. The abuses would still happen. Simply to other people.”

Kaladin nodded slowly

 

Thats the best i could do haha..

I don't really think Kal is "Racist" as in the sense that we identify with the word.

The Lighteyes are a ruling class, its how they identify themselves.

He has issues because of their lies that he sees it, professing to be so noble yet they don't hesitate and hold little regard for the lesser "Dark Eyes" it's more the social class than a physical characteristics.

 

It's like saying Kelsier is racist, he didn't hate Nobles because of what they looked like but because of what they did.

It just happens that a physical characteristic is tied in with the Upper Ruling Class.

[Seerow]

can someone quote the conversation where kaladin says power corrupt and that even if the darkeyes where in charge the same thing would happen from TWOK .

In addition to the segment quoted above, starting on page 315 of WoK (just transcribing dialogue because I have no idea how to copy text from my Kindle to a computer for easy copy/pasting)

 

Syl: The King's uncle, everyone says he never lies. Your bridgemen even talk about it sometimes.

Kaladin: He's lighteyes, that means he lies

Syl: But-

Kaladin: They're all the same, Syl. The more noble they look, the more corrupt they are inside. It's all an act.

Syl: I on't think men were always this way. I...

Kaladin: Syl? Were you going to say something?

Syl: It seems I've heard men talk about times when there were no lies

Kaladin: There are stories, about the times of the Heraldic Epochs, when men were bound by honor. But you'll always find people telling stories about supposedly better days. You watch. A man joins a new team of soldiers and the first thing he'll do is talk about how wonderful his old team was. We remember the good times and the bad ones, forgetting that most times are neither good nor bad. They just are.

Kaladin: The stories, they prove it. What happened to the Heralds? They abandoned us. What happened to the Knights Radiant? They fell and became tarnished. What happened to the Epoch Kingdoms? They crashed when the church tried to seize power. You can't trust anyone with power, Syl.

Syl: What do you do then? Have no leaders?

Kalain: No. You give the power to the lighteyes and leave it to corrupt them. Then try to stay as far from them as possible.

 

 

The last couple of highlighted lines are the important part for the context of the conversation, as it clearly highlights Kaladin seeing power as the root cause, not the lighteyes themselves. 

 

 

I am pretty sure there was also at least one more passage where there was discussion of what kinds of attrocities would be committed even if Darkeyes were in charge, I want to say it was shortly after Shen joined the crew before Kaladin intervened to stop the rest of Bridge Four from tormenting him. But it is really late (or early depending on perspective) and I am too tired to dig up another quote.

[AerionBFII he/him]

Thats the one i couldn't find, well done haha +1

[Pathfinder]

Ironically I feel the quotes you posted support my point all the more, just need to emphasize different portions.

“I’m no lighteyes,” Kaladin said, spitting to the side.

“You hate them so much.”

“I hate their lies,” Kaladin said. “I hate it that I used to believe they were honorable.”

“And would you cast them down?” Sigzil asked, sounding curious. “Rule in their place?”

“No.”

This seemed to surprise Sigzil. To the side, Syl finally appeared, having finished frolicking in the winds of the highstorm. He always worried—just a little—that she’d ride away with them and leave him.

“Have you no thirst to punish those who have treated you so?” Sigzil asked.

“Oh, I’m happy to punish them,” Kaladin said. “But I have no desire to take their place, nor do I wish to join them.”

“I’d join them in a heartbeat,” Moash said, walking up behind. He folded his arms across his lean, well-muscled chest. “If I were in charge, things would change. The lighteyes would work the mines and the fields. They would run bridges and die by Parshendi arrows.”

“Won’t happen,” Kaladin said. “But I won’t blame you for trying.”

Sigzil nodded thoughtfully. “Have either of you ever heard of the land of Babatharnam?”

..................................

“I doubt many would disagree. But I mention these horrors for a purpose. You see, it has been my experience that no matter where you go, you will find some who abuse their power.” He shrugged. “Eye color is not so odd a method, compared to many others I have seen. If you were to overthrow the lighteyes and place yourselves in power, Moash, I doubt that the world would be a very different place. The abuses would still happen. Simply to other people.”

Kaladin nodded slowly (This is Sigzil talking, not Kaladin)

He would love to see the lighteyes, ALL of them, be punished and suffer. His only refutation of Moash is that he thinks its impossible that a darkeyes could be in such a situation to punish the lighteyes. 

 

In addition to the segment quoted above, starting on page 315 of WoK (just transcribing dialogue because I have no idea how to copy text from my Kindle to a computer for easy copy/pasting)

 

Syl: The King's uncle, everyone says he never lies. Your bridgemen even talk about it sometimes.

Kaladin: He's lighteyes, that means he lies

Syl: But-

Kaladin: They're all the same, Syl. The more noble they look, the more corrupt they are inside. It's all an act.

Syl: I on't think men were always this way. I...

Kaladin: Syl? Were you going to say something?

Syl: It seems I've heard men talk about times when there were no lies

Kaladin: There are stories, about the times of the Heraldic Epochs, when men were bound by honor. But you'll always find people telling stories about supposedly better days. You watch. A man joins a new team of soldiers and the first thing he'll do is talk about how wonderful his old team was. We remember the good times and the bad ones, forgetting that most times are neither good nor bad. They just are.

Kaladin: The stories, they prove it. What happened to the Heralds? They abandoned us. What happened to the Knights Radiant? They fell and became tarnished. What happened to the Epoch Kingdoms? They crashed when the church tried to seize power. You can't trust anyone with power, Syl.

Syl: What do you do then? Have no leaders?

Kalain: No. You give the power to the lighteyes and leave it to corrupt them. Then try to stay as far from them as possible.

 

This last line I actually find funny based on how I interpret it. He views power as poison that will corrupt and destroy a person. So please let the people he hates most have it and choke on it while he just stays away safe. It is like finding out there is a gas leak in a house you share with someone you hate. Instead of fixing the leak, or even evacuating the building, you just make sure you aren't around anytime the person you hate tries to light the stove......

[mosaab]

really weak pathfinder, really weak.

 

and punishment is deffirent from inflicting suffering.

 

and kaladin said he hate their lies,not them

[Pathfinder]

really weak pathfinder, really weak.

 

and punishment is deffirent from inflicting suffering.

 

and kaladin said he hate their lies,not them

Disagreeing does not invalidate my points. All it means is you disagree. That is semantics. He had plenty of instances where dark eyes abused their station, and inflicted suffering on him and the ones he loved yet he never changed his mantra that lighteyes are the problem. Kal can be like that old fashioned grandpa who everyone loves, but will still say a racial slur randomly at christmas and everyone chooses to ignore, or can be a member of the Klu Klux Klan that actively hung innocent african americans. Either way, it is still racism. 

[Guest]

really weak pathfinder, really weak.

 

and punishment is deffirent from inflicting suffering.

 

and kaladin said he hate their lies,not them

 

You know, we typically enjoy having discussions within ourselves which can sometimes get too heated and/or too passionate. When it happens, some of us tend to leave or to disengage as a discussion only is interesting when there is an exchange, when it starts being a dialogue between two deaf people, it gets boring or infuriating. We are all guilty of having turned deaf at one point or another, but those who have been around here for a while actually know when to give up and when to move it to PM. 

 

Stating to someone who pointed out a funny way to look into Kaladin's words was a weak argument without offering anything in exchange does not warranty for a pleasant and detailed discussion. The way you phrased it also was condescending and for once, I do not disagree with whoever saw fit to downvote you. All it shows is you aren't willing to listen to the point of vue of those who aren't so terrible engrossed within Kaladin to turn a blind eyes to his flaws. Pathfinder contribution made me smile because no, we don't believe Kaladin would actually go this far, but his thought process suggest he may. Even he doesn't realize how terrible his own words are.

 

All characters have flaws and this thread was made to discuss those of Kaladin. If you can't bear the thought not every single readers is in awe of him, then perhaps this discussion is not for you. 

[Oversleep]

Thats the best i could do haha..

I don't really think Kal is "Racist" as in the sense that we identify with the word.

The Lighteyes are a ruling class, its how they identify themselves.

He has issues because of their lies that he sees it, professing to be so noble yet they don't hesitate and hold little regard for the lesser "Dark Eyes" it's more the social class than a physical characteristics.

 

It's like saying Kelsier is racist, he didn't hate Nobles because of what they looked like but because of what they did.

It just happens that a physical characteristic is tied in with the Upper Ruling Class.

This. Kelsier argument is perfect.

Was Kelsier racist for hating nobles in general? Many people here confuse the cause with the consequence - Kaladin doesn't hate people with light eyes simply for it, but because being lighteyed means being a part of the higher caste. And that's what he hates those people for. Racism is the former, classism is the latter.

[Stormgate he/him]

This is proof that Sanderson is accomplishing what he feels stories should: not to answer questions, but to give us questions to think upon. The question is, really, is Kaladin right in hating the lighteyes. I personally say that it isn't right to hate them, but he is justified. There is a distinction, which is between what he should do and what it is logical that he would do. If someone's family was made impoverished because someone wants money, your little brother, who is the greatest light in your life, is sent to war by that same someone, and you are promised that his brother would not have to fight, then having him die at the hands of enemy soldiers, you would probably be resentful. If the same person who broke his promise to protect your brother killed your entire squad and made you a slave simply to get Shards, you would be livid. If almost everyone who has done the things to make your life miserable have been in the same group of people, and you have never found a member of the group that was truly honorable, even ones that everyone said were, you would likely think the same way as Kaladin about lighteyes. That doesn't mean that it should end that way, and I would like to think that, in a similar situation, I would be able to view lighteyes without that prejudice. I doubt I would, however. Kaladin still has a ways to go, and a major change in his mindset is going to have to be going from "lighteyes are liars and dishonorable" to "most lighteyes are liars and dishonorable".

[Garfield]

 Kaladin doesn't hate people with light eyes simply for it, but because being lighteyed means being a part of the higher caste. And that's what he hates those people for.

 

 

He doesn t hate them becauce of the higher caste, he hates them because the higher caste gives them the opportunity to screw up his and other darkeyes' lives and they have been making ample use of this ability.

[Oversleep]

He doesn t hate them becauce of the higher caste, he hates them because the higher caste gives them the opportunity to screw up his and other darkeyes' lives and they have been making ample use of this ability.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Being higher caste means more power et cetera. I just wanted to point out that people tend to omit this fact instead going on with "he hates them simply for light eyecolour".

[Pathfinder]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Being higher caste means more power et cetera. I just wanted to point out that people tend to omit this fact instead going on with "he hates them simply for light eyecolour".

Difference is the nobility was a class, while lighteyes were a race.

 

Originally there were the skaa, and the nobility. If there were any breeding between the two, the product was executed. However Elend comments how overtime there has been such an intermingling anyway that you could barely tell the difference anymore. Kelsier himself was the product of a noble and a skaa which was illegal in that world. If he hated nobility as a "race", then he would have been as hell bent on wiping out the halfbreeds as the lord ruler was.

 

However in stormlight archive, a darkeyes could advance high enough in the caste system that they could marry into a lower light eyes family. The child then had a chance to be born lighteyes, or one dark eye one light eye, or just dark eyes. So there was, however improbable, a chance for a darkeyes to rise up high enough in the social structure to join the lighteyes ranks. It was so improbable to be almost myth, but it still could happen to the point that that was exactly what Lirin was working towards.

 

In mistborn there was no way shape or form for a skaa to EVER become nobility. Only after the lord ruler was killed, and Elend formed a whole new form of government was a middle class possible to exist with any class mobility. Vorinism's main tenant is bettering oneself. Through out the book it points out the hypocrisy of this in practice, but the society itself is built on the claim that a person, regardless dark eyes or light eyes can advance and be honored in the eyes of the Almighty. 

 

So Kelsier hates the CLASS of nobility, while Kaladin hates the RACE of lighteyes. Just because the TERM of racism is detestable does not change its application. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Garfield]

Difference is the nobility was a class, while lighteyes were a race.

 

 

 

No, the lighteyes are not a race. If a lighteyed and darkeyed person get together and have kids, the ligheyed ones will be full lighteyes and the darkeyes full darkeyes.

 

If a person changes eye colour he changes his status, too.

 

Now if a black African person from Nigeria has an albino son or daughter, with no dark pigment whatsoever, ethnically that person is still black African, isn't a white person. Ethnic discrimination on Roshar would be Shin people or Herdazians are inferior, just as much as the offspring of mixed marriages with these ethnicities is inferior.

 

In Nazi Germany Jews that were converted to Christianity were persecuted just as much as those who adhered to their native beliefs. Didn't help them when they were Germanic looking, tall and blonde with blue eyes either, the parentage was what made you  inferior, not some outer attributes.

 

Just like in the USA, the white majority call people black, even when they have far more than 50% white ancestors and have very light skin colour.

 

Racism is discriminating someone because of his or her biological ancestry, not because of physical attributes. The light- and darkeyed people or Roshar are not different races, so there can not be racism. They are seperated classes due to random physical attributes. They may intermarry and the physical attributes decides in which class the offspring will end.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Garfield