Meg Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 @ Maxal: You have a pm. @ Sylveris: In regard to the quote Maxal gave might you tell me give me a chapter where you got the feeling "his arc is not progressing ..." Is this prior or after Amaram's arrival?
Mr Horrible Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 This is a problem for me and may be the main cause of my current open disinterest for Kaladin's story arc. I too felt he had, finally, progressed by the end of WoR. I have happy, glad but I then read the SA3 excerpt and he was back to being depressed, self-pitying, negative individual he was all through WoR and I thought: "Please NO.". I disliked the Kaladin excerpt. I have spend an entire book dealing with Kaladin's mental problems and while I appreciate the intake on depression, I don't want to read another book focusing on this aspect. I got deeply afraid Brandon intended to write just that, again. This does not mean I don't want to read about Kaladin anymore, I simply do not wish his depression and his mental issues to be the main focus of next book. At this point in time, I also feel other characters have gotten more interesting than Kaladin which is why I plead for a change of focus. I disagree with you using the SA3 Kaladin excerpt as indication he's going to be just as depressed and mopey as he was previously. We were dropped into a pretty terrible situation where Kaladin didn't beat the Everstorm and Hearthstone had been ruined with no one in sight. Come on now, any character would have shown much the same emotions in this situation. 2
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 Guys, the mood is seriously getting sour. Not being a hardcore Kaladin's fan does not warrant a downvote. Can someone please be nice and go fix it. Thank you. That will be all for me in this discussion. I have no interest to partake in it if this is how discussions are to go down now.
Oversleep Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Maxal, fixed.I claim the discussion whether the word "racism" is appropriate in regard to what Kaladin believes closed as I have little to add. I believe that the topic is expended.For downvoters, I'd like to remind you that the downvote is reserved for posts which are offensive, rude, break the rules etc. We do not go and downvote people who disagree with us so long as it is right they obey the rules. People can have different opinions; we may disagree with them, fine, we can argue with them (politely), but downvoting somebody without a good reason is not appreciated. Edited January 7, 2016 by Oversleep 3
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Maxal, fixed. I claim the discussion whether the word "racism" is appropriate in regard to what Kaladin believes closed as I have little to add. I believe that the topic is expended. For downvoters, I'd like to remind you that the downvote is reserved for posts which are offensive, rude, break the rules etc. We do not go and downvote people who disagree with us so long as it is right they obey the rules. People can have different opinions; we may disagree with them, fine, we can argue with them (politely), but downvoting somebody without a good reason is not appreciated. Thanks I already sent a PM to the mods. The mood has been going downhill too much lately. I'll see if they see fit to take action or not. Edited January 7, 2016 by maxal
Stormgate he/him Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 So, to sum up, Kaladin is the Alethi version of racist, he is probably justified in this opinion though it is wrong, and don't downvote posts you don't agree with.
Seerow Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 So, to sum up, Kaladin is the Alethi version of racist, he is probably justified in this opinion though it is wrong, and don't downvote posts you don't agree with. I fail to see how this is a good summary since "Kaladin is a racist" is probably the single most hotly debated topic throughout the latter half of the thread. 1
Garfield Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 For downvoters, I'd like to remind you that the downvote is reserved for posts which are offensive, rude, break the rules etc. We do not go and downvote people who disagree with us so long as it is right they obey the rules. This certain one user is spamming this thread, repeating his claims over and over, aggressively claiming other opinions as not valid, over and over again with the ever same 3 questionable arguments. I see that as a mild form of trolling that should be downvoted.. 2
Garfield Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) I fail to see how this is a good summary since "Kaladin is a racist" is probably the single most hotly debated topic throughout the latter half of the thread. It s only hotly debated because exactly one user proposes it dozens of times. Edited January 7, 2016 by Garfield
The Ninja Yodeler he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 This certain one user is spamming this thread, repeating his claims over and over, aggressively claiming other opinions as not valid, over and over again with the ever same 3 questionable arguments. I see that as a mild form of trolling that should be downvoted.. Nope, just argued my point. If you call that spamming or trolling, thats your problem, not ours Garfield. If youve noticed all the downvotes for your actions, and how no one but you has downvoted me, as you say, for spamming & trolling, it should be apparent you are behaving in an infintile manner. Just because you dont agree, doesnt mean a downvote is warranted. My piece said. Im done.
The Ninja Yodeler he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 It s only hotly debated because exactly one user proposes it dozens of times. Wait?? Someones been proposing Kals racist? How do they figure that? He befirends and protects everyone in his squad, whos races vary from Horneater to Herdazien to a Parshendi! If that constitutes as racism, I need to reevaluate my life!
Guest Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Wait?? Someones been proposing Kals racist? How do they figure that? He befirends and protects everyone in his squad, whos races vary from Horneater to Herdazien to a Parshendi! If that constitutes as racism, I need to reevaluate my life! People have argued differentiating light and dark eyes is indeed the same as classifying as two races of people: the definition of what makes a race being a mere social construct. We thus cannot take our own perception as to what makes a race and apply it to Roshar: you have to consider as to whether Alethi would consider light and dark eyes to be two different races. If you agree there is a racial differentiation being applied to light and dark eyes, then yes Kaladin is racist by his attitude towards the lighteyes where he is incapable of giving them any credit for good actions done on his behalf. If you disagree there is a racial differentiation being applied to light and dark eyes, then Kaladin is a "classist" who negatively stigmatizes all individuals having light eyes. In any advent, the term was used to label a behavior Kaladin is exhibiting which did not please some readers. How you want, linguistically, to refer to it is rather pointless, I would say. The core of the argumentation is some readers were annoyed by his constant refusal to see any good within the Kholin family despite all they have done for him and his attitude place-holding all lighteyes within the same basket based on a negative experience with two individuals. Not everyone enjoyed reading those bouts and this is what the debate was about. Everyone agrees the behavior is understandable, but some think it isn't the right one, others would argue it is a serious character flaw and for some it is enough to dislike Kaladin as a character.
Garfield Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) If you disagree there is a racial differentiation being applied to light and dark eyes, then Kaladin is a "classist" who negatively stigmatizes all individuals having light eyes. He doesn't stigmatize them in general, he is quite okay with Dalinar's quartermaster, despite being a lighteyes. He only has a problem with lighteyes in a position of power. Why? Because since Wistiow as a child until Dalinar all he had been confronted with have abused their station and harmed him considerably. Edited January 10, 2016 by Garfield
Guest Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 He doesn't stigmatize them in general, he is quite okay with Dalinar's quartermaster, despite being a lighteyes. He only has a problem with lighteyes in a position of power. Why? Because since Wistiow as a child until Dalinar all he had been confronted with have abused their station and harmed him considerably. As I said, most people understand the behavior, some simply disliked reading it.
Garfield Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) As I said, most people understand the behavior, some simply disliked reading it. I guess the unbalanced impression comes from the fact that most of the time in the books we see K interacting with lighteyes in power, not with normal, low rank lighteyed citizens like the quartermaster Edited January 10, 2016 by Garfield
Guest Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 I guess the unbalanced impression comes from the fact that most of the time in the books we see K interacting with lighteyes in power, not with normal, low rank lighteyed citizens like the quartermaster That's true enough. I also believe Kaladin would benefit from having third person perspective more often: practically each time he is around, we have his POV. I would love to read Kaladin from the other POV character more often.
scifan he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Some of his attitude/behavior helps build an understanding of when/why he trips and fall's... that he's not a simple yes man... that he has to actively learn to change his behavior if he wants to continue his journey... Seems rather hard headed at times - and has nearly fallen hard twice now in the progression... (Understand I strongly like his character... one of my favorites...)
Seerow Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 He doesn't stigmatize them in general, he is quite okay with Dalinar's quartermaster, despite being a lighteyes. He only has a problem with lighteyes in a position of power. Why? Because since Wistiow as a child until Dalinar all he had been confronted with have abused their station and harmed him considerably. Even beyond that, I noticed on my reread that Kaladin actually seemed pretty inclined to trust Dalinar early on in the book. It wasn't until Amaram came back and turned out to be close friends with Dalinar that Kaladin started getting really broody about the whole thing. When you look at his attitude in that context, it makes sense. Dalinar was supposed to be different... but then so was Amaram way back when. Amaram turned out to have a very black soul beneath the facade he kept up, and Dalinar being so close with him instantly raised a lot of questions as to whether Dalinar was the same despite all proof to the contrary. I feel like if Amaram hadn't shown up on the Shattered Plains then the story would have progressed in a very different direction. 3
scifan he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Even beyond that, I noticed on my reread that Kaladin actually seemed pretty inclined to trust Dalinar early on in the book. It wasn't until Amaram came back and turned out to be close friends with Dalinar that Kaladin started getting really broody about the whole thing. When you look at his attitude in that context, it makes sense. Dalinar was supposed to be different... but then so was Amaram way back when. Amaram turned out to have a very black soul beneath the facade he kept up, and Dalinar being so close with him instantly raised a lot of questions as to whether Dalinar was the same despite all proof to the contrary. I feel like if Amaram hadn't shown up on the Shattered Plains then the story would have progressed in a very different direction. I agree... though I think forcing to Kaladin face his "demons" is part of the story arc... something that BS is intending to drag us through in the character progression... In some way's I wonder if he could have fully achieved the understanding/meaning of the 3rd oath without actually passing through the trials involved in the latter part of this book...
The Ninja Yodeler he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 That's true enough. I also believe Kaladin would benefit from having third person perspective more often: practically each time he is around, we have his POV. I would love to read Kaladin from the other POV character more often. I did very much so enjoy reading about Kal from anothers viewpoint, especially Shallans. Some of my favorite sections are their interactions. Kinda wanna see some Navani perspective. Rocks, since he can see anothers spren without them revealing themselves, which would give us unique insight into who could come into play.
Chaos he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Garfield and Ninja Yodeler. Knock it the hell off. Welcome to the moderation queue where we will manually need to approve your posts. We closed the previous topic and will be sending you messages very shortly regarding both of your behaviors. I am disappointed in you both. Some more than others. Everyone else, please get back on topic. EDIT: If you are curious, PMs will come to you in the next day, maybe two max. Edited January 10, 2016 by Chaos
Sun Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Kaladin is a very likable hero when he isn't whining about not protecting someone - albeit, he does have seasonal effective disorder per WoB so some of this is beyond his control. He's noble and real despite being unrelatable. Cannot stress the real part enough. Normally, the goody-two-shoes-I-do-no-wrong characters come off as superficial and unrealistic. I can't really define what makes him so real but he is. Also, he still tries to be a good person despite going through the shitter. Besides that, it has become a trend as of late to make the main protagonist into somewhat of a pragmatic opportunist (especially in YA literature). I like that he wants to be a good person and tries to stick to his values. Edited January 11, 2016 by Sun 2
IndigoAjah he/him Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 I am seriously ill-at-ease with comments stating criminals shouldn't be punished and first degree murder is not an offense worthy of imprisonment. I don't think I can comment further on that topic without losing my decency. So that's it for me on the topic of Szeth and his crimes. I have said what I had to say. I expect we will get an exploration of the nature of crime, guilt and punishment. Exploring these issues and demonstrating that there may in fact not be just one rigid way of thinking about them is, for me, exactly what literature (and especially speculative fiction) should be aiming to do: provoking entertainment, emotion, thought and reflection
IndigoAjah he/him Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Even beyond that, I noticed on my reread that Kaladin actually seemed pretty inclined to trust Dalinar early on in the book. It wasn't until Amaram came back and turned out to be close friends with Dalinar that Kaladin started getting really broody about the whole thing. When you look at his attitude in that context, it makes sense. Dalinar was supposed to be different... but then so was Amaram way back when. Amaram turned out to have a very black soul beneath the facade he kept up, and Dalinar being so close with him instantly raised a lot of questions as to whether Dalinar was the same despite all proof to the contrary. I feel like if Amaram hadn't shown up on the Shattered Plains then the story would have progressed in a very different direction. Absolutely this. Syl herself notes that Amaram makes Kaladin a worse person
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