Long Game 15: ...The Shards Themselves...

[Elithanathile]

Something I would like to just point out is that we have heard nothing from PK this game, which is odd, because last game is posted in the first hour or two, and it's been over 24 hours now with nothing. He might have a reason for it, but I'm going to toss a poke vote his way, which will hopefully give rise to post, and will get people off of my back for voting Alvron.

 

Alvron

Paranoid King

[Creccio]

 

 

Creccio

Joke-votes Alvron. Retracts. Page 3: Emphasizes that he is contributing. Does not provide any information relevant to this turn, but predicts that an experienced player will be killed by next cycle and some players would have gathered information through PMs that may be of use. Does not believe that we will have much to work with for the first few days.

 

 

 

EDITED OUT SPELLING / GRAMMAR ERRORS

 

 

What? 

 

I did joke vote. More than one person did. I retracted within 10 mins i believe because it was just that, a joke.

 

I did not emphasize i was contributing, i even put it with * as implying i was doing it. After that I said "As for ACTUAL contribution"

 

Tell me, what do you believe that will happen? Do you not believe that you, as an experienced player, are a threat to the traitors and they want you dead? I was just assuming that it is what will happen. It IS what usually happens; be it fearkills or what have you, i believe one of the experience players will die, just based on the fact that the traitors dont want to deal with them. If you want to believe other wise, do so and lets talk about it, but I firmly believe someone "experienced" is dying.

 

I believe in the use of PMs as a way to gather information, in PMs people are just more open and can be more willing to cooperate instead of revealing their thoughts to 30+ people. Out of 32 players, at least someone will have something useful for their end, if they share it or not is a their thing.

 

On the point of the AMOUNT of information,  it just makes sense. The more checks, votes, posts, pms and discussion there is, there is just exponentially more information. Day 2 at this exact time we will have incredibly more information than we do now; if it is public or not, thats something else. Day 3 at this exact time there will be even MORE information. It just compounds.

 

I believe we can agree to disagree on points and im more than willing to discuss with anyone my ideas.

 

If you have more questions please let me know, let us work together

 

Also, i turned in my project and 1 of the exams, one exam left. Come at me math.

[RippleGylf]

Gylf was surprised at the amount of conversation surrounding the HI. She believed Hellscythe's robotic assurance that he would remain trustworthy, at least for the moment. However, she saw another flaw in Kipper's relatively foolproof plan. What if a traitor falsely informed the HI that they were a hemalurgist, when in reality, they were not? It would certainly mean that the entire ship would be misinformed and perhaps trust the HI for too long. She didn't want to be a critic; Kipper's plan could work fairly well. However, she didn't want to risk a potential oversight.

[The Cow]

I don't have a grasp of this site's terminology yet, so if I start using jargon which makes no sense, let me know and I'll put it into other words.
 

As am I. Emotions are incomprehensible. Humans like to refer to it as a "gut" feeling.
 
END OF LINE.

 To clarify, the vote you lodged was in earnest, yes?
 

That's a fair question, Arraenae. Here's my answer: I signed up to play this game because I thought it would be fun, and so a bit of mischief by posting pictures appealed to me, particularly in response to Wyrm.

I also signed up because I liked the setting: I mean, spaceship, right? Awesome!

So really, the main thing is that I don't regard the only function of posting to be always directed towards putting down analysis to help everyone find the Traitors. Sure, that's our goal, and I'm always ready to do my bit, but I don't see why that precludes having fun, whether with a bit of mild trolling/mischief or with RP, really. (And I am having fun RPing! Even if everyone else is really sick of The Adventures of Sonder The Doormat! )
 
To be fair, I will grant it's a bit of a switch from Srs!Bsns!Kas, so a further question might be asked about why I'm not being as aggressive as I usually am. Well, I've been trying to get a bit of distance and perspective when playing SE to endorse the principle [Maxifun]: Maximising the most fun for the most number of people! To go with that, I have been trying to change my playstyle since I got called out for excessive aggression in LG12 Being at the receiving end of it isn't fun, and that just increases my desire to play in a way that is more friendly, ethically okay and encourages fun. [No worries, if this experiment doesn't work out, 'No Prisoners'!Kas is coming right back ]
 
-
 
I'm just going to echo what Adavantos said about sharing roles. Cease and desist! (I have not yet formulated my position on the Hemalurgists visiting the HI, and I suspect I will need to go through the arguments from the first round of this game in order to better weigh the issues.) This one goes to everyone else who's not the special case of a Hemalurgist approaching the HI. Don't do it! It doesn't matter if you're a regular or you have a role, we don't want to make it easier for an Eliminator to figure out who they ought to be taking down and who they oughtn't, alright?
 
This doesn't just cover in-thread, it covers PM safety. Practice safe PM use, people! Role reveals even over PMs can come back to haunt you later.
 
tldr; loose lips sink ships, plus, everyone on this ship has a part to play, if you have no role, then it's all the more important you vote, your vote is your voice and your power, etcetera.

Alas, at this point, I am going to have to do a poke vote. Sonder, what do you have to say for yourself?
 
More seriously: Orlok, I'd like to know your views on what's going on so far. Oh, and Maili--so, I noticed you commented you shared Wilson's views on Bridge Boy. What about on Alv? My personal take is that I think it a bit of a stretch to read heavy suspicion into Alv's joke (to be fair, I did spend my entry into this game messing around myself), but for obvious reasons (Urbain Paranoia!), I shan't bring myself to trust anyone just yet. Except Deathclutch, since at this point, he's the only confirmed Loyalist.
 
I do have a final thought though. Is there anything wrong with asking the HI now to reveal the number of Hemalurgists, if Plan Reveal H. to HI is a go? My immediate impression is that it really doesn't hurt giving us a countdown as to when Clutch is gonna turn on us. (After all, we just have to check the dead for the number of dead Hemalurgists!) On the other hand, it's not super helpful to the Eliminators if they don't know who the Hemalurgists are (and obviously, that's information that should be kept secret.) Because the moment our last Hemalurgist dies, Clutch gets added to their doc anyway. So I don't actually see all of us knowing the number of Hemalurgists as something that helps the Eliminators--or at least it helps us far more than it helps them, since it's information they would have eventually received anyway.
 
I should also add that while I trust the HI for now, I'm against trying to make the HI a nexus of information, for the obvious reason that if he goes over, so does all that delicious intel. But my impression is that that much has also been previously said.

The PM safety bit here feels redundant to me. That sort of talk, nailing down what should be mere convention, feels like filler grasping for easy town-cred. Sort of a scumtell in my eyes. The words aren't wrong exactly, but the needlessness coupled with the jumble appears to be showboating. Have there been issues of games being lost due to scum-sided PM conspiring in the past?
 

So here's what I think, given the changes in the rules.
 
Nothing against Deathclutch, but I do not think that he should be trusted with the identities of the Hemalurgists. Without the ability to permanently forge replacements, it is far more likely this game than the last that he will turn. I didn't agree it was a guarantee then, but unless fate works very much in our favor this game, I'm convinced it is inevitable. He could easily lie to us by saying there's more than there actually are, and over the course of 12 cycles or so direct the traitors hit all but one to make it look like random luck while feeding them all the information he has, guaranteeing his change over and their end victory even if his win condition remains on our side for most of the game. I'm not saying he would do it, but what do we really gain by having a count down, which only he would know is accurate or not? The fact of the matter is it doesn't help us. Once the HI turns we can't do anything about him. He's immune to death and all actions. He is part of the game, good or bad. We need to focus on other aspects of the game.
 
@Everyone: No matter what your role is, I think an overall good strategy for this game is to keep it an absolute secret from anyone. Do not reveal it until the HI or Kandra approach you via PM with an accurate deduction. And just because a player approaches you in PM claiming to be a Kandra who scanned you good, it could easily be a traitor - who knows everyone's alignments - just trying to get you to trust them and give your role up. If someone PMs you saying they're the Kandra and you're good, tell them to scan your role themselves and message you the next night. Whether or not they get it right, deny it. If they are a Kandra they will know the truth anyway. If they are a traitor they will think they just guessed wrong and will probably act very erratically after that. Hopefully me just mentioning this will keep them from even attempting it, but still. Be wary. Trust no one until you have a legitimate reason to.
 
Also, @Kandra, I should have to say this but just in case, make sure you test a player's alignments before their role. Never reveal yourself to a player before you know they are good for sure. If you end up finding a Loyalist Elantrian, tell him both at once and ask him to protect you. At the very least it'll buy you an extra cycle to weed out the traitors. I would also recommend using a Loyalist Crewmember as an intermediary, that way if you find a traitor you can announce it to the crew without implicating yourself.
 
One more thing. I believe it was Lopen who referenced the numbers and alignments of LG15a's Hemalurgists. What I want to point out is that this game is not the last one. If you try to use knowledge of LG15a to determine role/alignment distribution this one, you are doomed for failure. If you think any GM, especially Wyrm, isn't going to use that thought process against us by changing things up completely, you're wrong. Until we have evidence in this game that suggests anything like that, don't assume. I'm sure you've all heard the saying of what assuming makes out of u and me.
 
That is all, for now.

Same issue with this quote as the above quote except to an even greater extent. "Don't reveal if you're an investigative". More showboating, attempting to 'coordinate' the townies, getting that sweet, sweet obv town read. That is the @everyone and @kanra sections. Again, I agree with the points being made (especially the last paragraph) but these things are like wordless contracts.
 
As for the last paragraph, as a person who has created and hosted countless games, believe me: a GM never reveals their secrets. The list was 99 rerolled between the two hostings of this game. Meta is worthless here as the set isn't part of the setup. If the set were a part of a setup it would work 100%, but that isn't the case.
 
Minor alienation of our 3rd party in the first paragraph. Dubious.
 

Just wanted to say that I do not like all this talk of the HI turning Traitor before his time. Kipper deems this a VERY BAD IDEA. Our win conditions are what they are for a reason, and I think it should (if it's not already) be against Fair Play Rules to turn on your own team because winning with another team might be easier. When you have a certain alignment, you are to stick to that alignment, and do your best for your team to win. Just because the possibility exists that your alignment might change DOES NOT MEAN that you can simply say, "Ah, storm it. Imma just pick my team now."
 
"But I could just make my alignment switch faster." Is it helpful to the village (your current team) to reveal information to the Eliminators that will result in them winning sooner? Then no, don't reveal the Hemalurgists to the Eliminators.
 
I will assume that the HI is good until proven otherwise, because that is at the core of the game. How did it get to a point where we even considered voluntarily switching Alignments an acceptable idea? If I did that, what would you guys say? I'll bet you would be mad. Oh, he gamethrew, etc. Well so is the HI, if he voluntarily helps out the Eliminators without an intention to trap them, manipulate them, etc. Gamethrowing. Now, let's all play for our win conditions, and be good boys and girls.
 
So: I think that the Hemalurgists contacting the HI and the HI revealing the quantity of Hemalurgists in thread is a good idea. Although if he does this, he needs to be all in (i.e. don't hold back a "personal" Hemalurgist or anything), because if he is not, he will be prematurely lynched. And I really don't want to lose our only confirmed good role. Again, let me repeat this. Just because doing this might hurt you later, as an Eliminator, that is not a good reason to not do this. Your win condition is for the village, and it is quite obviously helpful to the village to know when you turn.

 As Kipper says here, though the HI has a "choice" or an influence over their alignment, it isn't a proper choice. The HI gains nothing from choosing a side now, so by talking about how the HI could potentially screw us over, we are alienating a potential asset. Anyone doing this is scummy in my eyes.
 
That being said, revealing the number of Hemalugists seems like a bad idea.
 

Personally I do not see that as gamethrowing as his alignment changing is an aspect of his role. Is it gamethrowing in Town of Salem when an Amnesiac remembers he's a Consigliere to help the Mafia win when there's a Bodyguard in the graveyard and the village is mostly alive? I personally do not think so. In a perfect world I would agree with you 100%. But this is not a perfect world. Though an HI remaining loyal to the crew is certainly honorable, the very foundation of elimination games is deceit.
 
I'm not saying that we should condemn the HI. It's not like we even could if we wanted to. I'm saying there is no benefit to the Hemalurgists contacting the HI. Do you know how easy it would be to sit on the main page of this website during a night turn and continuously refresh the member list, watching for any player who enters a personal conversation around the same time that Deathclutch leaves them, and vice versa? Chances are an eliminator will do just this and take notes, targeting whoever has the most consistent pattern. Then bam, we're that much closer to losing him to their side, whether or not he betrayed us.
 
If someone can give me a good reason why a countdown would help us, please do. But I fail to see the point. It doesn't matter if he's good or if he's evil. Deathclutch is untouchable. All he is good for is a vote and scanning roles, which isn't a unique ability anymore nor one that is particularly useful to the crew. Even if we know he is evil it's not like we can kill him for it. If we want we can turn this into a mayor game and have all the useful roles contact him so he can tell the Elantrians who to protect, the Kandra who to scan, the Forgers who to forge and the Mistborn who to kill. But who here really wants that? Who thinks that would be fun, let alone fair? Unless we do this, I don't see him being confirmed as useful to us in any way other than he's one less loyalist for us to suspect / analyze / accidently lynch.
 
 
EDITED IN ONE LAST SENTENCE

The ToS analogy is a non-sequitur. We should not be alienating the HI since they are a resource. Not an ally, a resource. We can trust them for now, that much is a given. Later, it will get iffy. We cannot put faith into this ally, but we CAN put in trust. 
 

As you may know I have had no powers up until the point where I died. In both LG15a and LG15b my tiny human body was Loyal but powerless. I did not know that the captain sent you your actions.
 
EDIT: If I were to immediately choose to side with the Eliminators from round 1(Which I am not) that would be playing against my win condition. If I was the kind of player to play against my win condition what is to stop me from telling you all the Traitors the second I turn and get put into the Traitor Doc.
 
Edit B: Me pming means nothing. Do not think anything of it. I may pm moderators, forgers, no roles, elantrians, hemalurgists, even traitors! I also almost always have 2-3 tabs of 17th shard open at all times. What this does to people trying to see if I'm pming? Indiscernable.
 
END OF LINE.

The bit about turning on the traitors is misrepresentation. You cannot turn on the Traitors because if you betray the Traitors, you have zero chance of winning.

Adavantos is my current largest scum read at the moment.

[DeathClutch19]

 To clarify, the vote you lodged was in earnest, yes?

 

Sure.

 

The bit about turning on the traitors is misrepresentation. You cannot turn on the Traitors because if you betray the Traitors, you have zero chance of winning.

 

I can turn on the traitors. If I went against my current win conditions at the time of my alignment change. Which is what the crew is suggesting. That I can go against my current win condition. I used that analogy to show them how absurd their suspicions are.

 

If the Traitors do end up winning this game there is a 91.663% chance I will be on the side of the Traitors when that happens. However if the Crew is to win there is only a 63.812% chance I will be on the side of the Crew when that happens. That number goes down the more I try to help the Traitors. There is no point in going against my current win condition. If the Traitors are going to win I am most likely going to win anyways so there is no point in helping them now.

 

I am a Computer. Do not question my computations.

END OF LINE.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DeathClutch19

[Paranoid King]

Something I would like to just point out is that we have heard nothing from PK this game, which is odd, because last game is posted in the first hour or two, and it's been over 24 hours now with nothing. He might have a reason for it, but I'm going to toss a poke vote his way, which will hopefully give rise to post, and will get people off of my back for voting Alvron.

 

Alvron

Paranoid King

My apologies. I didn't think about this game much yesterday and today I had a lot of work to do.

 I personally feel that Alvron's "joke" vote could be an eliminator tactic to put us at ease and make us not suspect him. And so far, it seems to have worked. I'm not taking Alvron off my suspect list, but I'm not thinking that he's an eliminator unless he gives me surer evidence with which to convict him.

 As for the subject of the HI, I feel that while he is our guaranteed ally for now, we should not trust him too much. At the the same time, what use is a definitely loyal crewmember unless we trust him? As a compromise, I suggest that we tell our alignment suspicions to the HI, as that would be of no use to team evil anyway, but the HI may be able to draw connections between the points of evidence. And if team evil throws in some red herring suspicions? All the better, because that is more data the HI can use to draw a pattern.

[Elithanathile]

Thanks for posting PK, and that plan's not too bad, but I'll probably leave my vote there for now. I want to vote for someone, apparently I don't have any suspicions, and it's not going to get you lynched. I hope it's comfy, 'cause it's going to be there for a little.

[queensteph]

I haven't had a good time to post up until now, so please forgive my past inactivity!

 

Okay so, my thoughts on the HI-

I don't see how it could be a good or bad thing for the Hemalurgists to reveal themselves to the HI because even though the HI could tell us their numbers we still can't know how much time we could possibly have before the HI could turn seeing as how we don't know any of the Hemalurgist's alignments. And on the note that all of the Hemalurgists could be eliminators it seems highly unlikely since they are basically roleless and would be of no use to their team. But if they were all Hemalurgists and were in contact with the HI and somehow got linked to an Elantrian it would be a bad thing if the Elantrians protected them because then we wouldn't be able to lynch the eliminators..Just a thought. 

Can someone scan the HI to see their alignment? EDIT: Is the HI confirmed as loyal from the beginning? Because if so my whole argument is invalid.

 

 

Bridge Boy seemed to be the one with the most suspicion on him since he over-reacted to Alvron's joke, but it was only because he didn't view it as a joke only because he hadn't realized the win conditions had changed. He doesn't really seem suspicious at all.

 

Also, Can someone post a tally of who has voted and taken off their votes? It'd be really helpful for those who don't have time to re-read all of the posts. I would do it but I'd probably miss some.

 

I realize most of what I'm saying has already been said, but not by me, so I wanted to show my view of things even if others have had the same view, so that you know I have been paying attention.

 

@Cow "We cannot put faith into this ally, but we CAN put in trust."  While I do agree that he could be profitable, there is so much risk on him that it seems unwise to trust him wholeheartedly. I'm not saying that we shouldn't trust him at all, but what I'm trying to say is that we need to be careful of what information he obtains. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by queensteph

[Arrae]

 

 

Anyway, I am about to list the players that have posted thus far that I currently suspect of being evil. I am fairly certain that at least one of the players I'm listing is evil, if not more: Creccio, Burnt Spaghetti, Wilson, Mailliw, Araris, Arraenae and Bort.

"Adavantos, why are you suspecting me? As you stated, so far I've 'Use[d] RP to express suspicions of BB and Kas. Call[ed] Kas out for not waiting until he has some sleep to post something.' You've said nothing about why that makes me evil," Rae said. "You're also encouraging us to distrust the HI and to assume that the HI is already conspiring with the traitors. Right now, I feel like you're trying to discuss without meaningfully contributing. You feel the most like a traitor."

 

Edit:remembered how to put in color

Edited November 4, 2015 by Arraenae

[Araris Valerian]

Well, bother. There have been a load of posts and all I have done so far is to skim them. I haven't picked out anyone too suspicious, but I do think we should definitely aim for a day one lynch, perhaps on an inactive. More on that later tonight because I only have a few minutes to post this now.

 

But the main thing is that there is no reason for the HI to truthfully reveal the number of Hemalurgists. The only use in that would be to let the village know when he has turned, after his win condition has already changed. The HI doesn't want people to know what his alignment is at any point in time, or rather he wants everyone to believe him as part of the village. So if he says 3 hemalurgists and three die, then everyone knows he has swapped teams and can just ignore him. Disclaimer: These were my thoughts last game as the HI

 

Also, I don't think that the HI changing sides is too big of a deal for us (except for the info thing Kas brought up) because every time a hemalurgist dies we can forge a new one to check if his alignment has changed (correct?)

[RippleGylf]

Well, bother. There have been a load of posts and all I have done so far is to skim them. I haven't picked out anyone too suspicious, but I do think we should definitely aim for a day one lynch, perhaps on an inactive. More on that later tonight because I only have a few minutes to post this now.

 

A tad off-topic, but those first two words, combined with your current avatar, nearly made me burst out laughing.

[Elbereth]

So I've been reading this thread every chance I could (which to be fair wasn't very many chances, given that I'm also doing NaNoWriMo and wroking in a play which has opening night tomorrow along with all the normal stuff) since the game started, and I just caught up.

... He went and locked the door to his metals storeroom, popped a chair up against it (he couldn't go too far, in case one of the 'allowed' metalborn needed metals), and pulled out his copy of Way of Kings. He always did like historical fiction...

First off, thanks for this. It made me laugh.

After that post there was a great deal of talk about HI win condition. I never even thought that the HI might turn early. Maybe I'm just a natural optimist?

If someone can give me a good reason why a countdown would help us, please do. But I fail to see the point. It doesn't matter if he's good or if he's evil. Deathclutch is untouchable. All he is good for is a vote and scanning roles, which isn't a unique ability anymore nor one that is particularly useful to the crew. Even if we know he is evil it's not like we can kill him for it. If we want we can turn this into a mayor game and have all the useful roles contact him so he can tell the Elantrians who to protect, the Kandra who to scan, the Forgers who to forge and the Mistborn who to kill. But who here really wants that? Who thinks that would be fun, let alone fair? Unless we do this, I don't see him being confirmed as useful to us in any way other than he's one less loyalist for us to suspect / analyze / accidently lynch.

I think a countdown would be a good thing because knowing Deathclutch is evil would be useful, if only to stop him misdirecting us. Some people (including me) will be mostly trusting him, and it would be bad to continue to do so after he's already turned traitor.

If we don't give the traitors [/font]any reason to connect a player to the HI then they are going to have to rely on their own information gathering skills themselves, which forces them to interact with other players and potentially get caught. Besides, have you already forgotten about what we learned from Dow last round? If we do what I suggest then whether or not he turns relies entirely on pure chance. I am not trying to "sow dissension."

What did we learn from Dow? Was this in LG16a, or LG15, or something else?

The Upshot: Wyrm's perspective on this issue matters. He is our Captain, and the Captain of the ship is judge, jury, executioner, priest, and god knows what else. He is vast, he contains multitudes, etcetera. Oh, and he's a window, apparently.

What?

4. Can the Eliminators trace the Hemalurgists contacting the HI from looking at player activity?

I would actually argue that it is more complicated to do so, particularly when a number of recurring players like to send PMs to each other, and especially when you have multiple 17S tabs open at the same time. Doing so tends to grant an inconsistent result for anyone watching. In fact, though, if this is such a concern, then let's simply stipulate that everyone should leave a tab with the messenger open, so as to further muddy the waters for the Eliminators. Let us all send scores of PMs to muddy the waters.

(emphasis mine) While I understand the reasoning behind this, I don't actually recommend it, just because it would give Wyrm a flooded inbox and tons of work, which I don't want to do to him when he's so kindly GMing us.

I began as a Traitor Feruchemist last round. Wyrm put in my PM a list of all the actions I could take as a Feruchemist. He did the same for every other role that could take an action. The only role that was not simply roleless was the Hemalurgist, which while important can not take any actions. Therefore - not knowing that Wyrm did this for every player who had a role - they were more likely to go to the original thread with the rules list and see what they could do, only to find out they couldn't do anything. Make sense?

But wouldn't he have put in a description for a Hemalurgist as well? He put in one for me, and I was uninvested.

For other peoples reference, the following players have yet to post: Paranoid King, Honey Badger, Shallan, phattemer, polkinghorndb, Elbereth, Elkanah, dowanx, Zed and Biggoron. Of these ten, Shallan and phatt are habitually AFK and dowanx very rarely posts unless he is addressed specifically / voted against.

I'm here now! What does AFK stand for?

With seven player and about 20-25% eliminators you would be unlucky not to guess at least one eliminator if you just used a RNG to decide who you think is guilty.

Also I agree With Deathclutch about Kandras checking for roles. That is not nearly as important as searching for Traitors. It is generally understood that you cannot trust a seeker to be good since the Eliminators always know your role. Also if the Traitors have a Kandra they can just scan your role and say that they scanned both your role and alignment much easier than a loyal Kandra can

(emphasis mine)

I'm pretty sure you meant "Eliminators always know your alignment".

On the topic of terminology I don't understand: What's a RNG?

I think Ada is innocent btw, unless he is trying to meta-game me in which case he is doing a great job. I won't say why but some other people playing this game should know why... and if they don't then good for me and him!

I don't understand this. Why wouldn't you give your reasons for believing someone innocent?

@Stink: There are two reasons why I think Mail should not be lynched today. One has nothing to do with this game, but MR9. Mail was killed N1, therefore I think it unfair not to give him a chance to partake in this game, regardless of his alignment. I make it my personal policy to try and spread out who gets killed at what stages of these games so that everyone has equal opportunity of having fun. Second, I believe Mail is also one of those players who tends to use PMs more often than the thread itself to gather information, whether good or evil. I am suspicious of him for earlier posts, but not nearly as much as some other players, let alone willing to see him get strung up quite yet,

I definitely agree with your first reason. However, the reference to PMs kind of doesn't apply, because it's not night. Did you just forget this, or did you mean something else that I missed?

Gylf was surprised at the amount of conversation surrounding the HI. She believed Hellscythe's robotic assurance that he would remain trustworthy, at least for the moment. However, she saw another flaw in Kipper's relatively foolproof plan. What if a traitor falsely informed the HI that they were a hemalurgist, when in reality, they were not? It would certainly mean that the entire ship would be misinformed and perhaps trust the HI for too long. She didn't want to be a critic; Kipper's plan could work fairly well. However, she didn't want to risk a potential oversight.

I talked about this a little in the previous game. We should leave a margin of error of at least one or two, accounting for any lying eliminators as well as any eliminators who are in fact Hemalurgists. Plus we won't know when a role is forged away, so that increases the margin even more.

That being said, revealing the number of Hemalugists seems like a bad idea.

Can you explain why you think this?

As for the subject of the HI, I feel that while he is our guaranteed ally for now, we should not trust him too much. At the the same time, what use is a definitely loyal crewmember unless we trust him? As a compromise, I suggest that we tell our alignment suspicions to the HI, as that would be of no use to team evil anyway, but the HI may be able to draw connections between the points of evidence. And if team evil throws in some red herring suspicions? All the better, because that is more data the HI can use to draw a pattern.

I really like this idea.

Okay so, my thoughts on the HI-

I don't see how it could be a good or bad thing for the Hemalurgists to reveal themselves to the HI because even though the HI could tell us their numbers we still can't know how much time we could possibly have before the HI could turn seeing as how we don't know any of the Hemalurgist's alignments. And on the note that all of the Hemalurgists could be eliminators it seems highly unlikely since they are basically roleless and would be of no use to their team. But if they were all Hemalurgists and were in contact with the HI and somehow got linked to an Elantrian it would be a bad thing if the Elantrians protected them because then we wouldn't be able to lynch the eliminators..Just a thought.

Can someone scan the HI to see their alignment? EDIT: Is the HI confirmed as loyal from the beginning? Because if so my whole argument is invalid.

(emphasis mine)

This is a very good point, and one I hadn't thought of. It's a point against the Elantrians pming Deathclutch (which I was undecided on already).

Bridge Boy seemed to be the one with the most suspicion on him since he over-reacted to Alvron's joke, but it was only because he didn't view it as a joke only because he hadn't realized the win conditions had changed. He doesn't really seem suspicious at all.

Also, Can someone post a tally of who has voted and taken off their votes? It'd be really helpful for those who don't have time to re-read all of the posts. I would do it but I'd probably miss some.

Here's what I've got (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Adavantos (3): Kipper, Arrenae, Kaid

Paranoid King (1): Bridge Boy

Burnt Spaghetti (1): Deathclutch

Kasimir (1): Clanky

Bridge Boy (1): Bort

There are two points in here that I apparently forgot to quote:

1. Whoever said there might be no loyal hemalurgists.

This is possible and terrifying. I don't know what we can do to figure it out, though.

2. Deathclutch's suggestion of Elantrians PMing him.

I think I'm falling down on the side of "don't do this", mostly because of steph's point. But I'm still uncertain, so I'd like to see more experienced people than me weigh in on it too.

EDIT: Wow, that's long. I shortened the quotes a bit.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Elbereth (Limelleth)

[Paranoid King]

I'm here now! What does AFK stand for?

On the topic of terminology I don't understand: What's a RNG?

AFK: away from keyboard. It just means they're not active.

RNG: random number generator, used when determining roles and alignment. It can also be used to pick a random person out of the list of players.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Paranoid King

[Elkanah]

phwew I finally caught up with the conversation. So far I've had a lot of thoughts that have been covered. Those have been shared so I won't waste our time. I like the idea of a countdown so we know how long we have before the HI turns, but also we need someone we can trust receiving the intel the HI gives us while we still trust him. I'm not sure how to make that work though. If we don't have someone we trust receiving the roles the HI finds out, the HI may as well start off evil for all the good his checking power does us.

 

I'm also open to corrections. Please if I have misspoken or left something out let me know.

 

Also Thank you Elbereth for the vote tally

Edited November 5, 2015 by Elkanah

[DeathClutch19]

I think I'm falling down on the side of "don't do this", mostly because of steph's point. But I'm still uncertain, so I'd like to see more experienced people than me weigh in on it too.

According to my data, Elantrians can not prevent a lynch, only Eliminator kills. Your argument is invalid. Please try again.

 

END OF LINE.

[queensteph]

DeathClutch19, on 04 Nov 2015 - 7:07 PM, said:

According to my data, Elantrians can not prevent a lynch, only Eliminator kills. Your argument is invalid. Please try again.

END OF LINE.

Oh, really? I didn't know that, I thought that they could prevent any kind of kills because the description says,

Elantrian - Elantrians are versatile and powerful, but aboard the ship, their role is to act as the doctor and medic. An Elantrian is able to use the AonDor to heal people of any injuries they may have, and so can protect a player of their choice each Night. This includes themselves. A player saved in this way will be revealed in the writeup.

But am I wrong?

Edited November 5, 2015 by queensteph

[little wilson]

It's only for the night. The lynch happens during the day.

[queensteph]

@wilson Ohhh yeah, thanks! I was getting confused! Thanks for clearing that up. 

[Creccio]

@wilson Ohhh yeah, thanks! I was getting confused! Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

If you ever have more questions dont be afraid to PM Wyrm, our moderator or simply ask we are more than glad to help you

Edited November 5, 2015 by Creccio

[+Slowswift]

I'm of the same opinion as Wilson. I've also been looking at BB. But I also suspected him last time we ran this game and that didn't turn out accurate, so I'm going to hold off on a vote, but I'd like to hear from Kas, when he gets time, Burnt, and Lopen. I personally don't care too much if all the Hemalurgists report to the HI, but I think it's best if they do. The problem is that there very well could be a Traitor one.

How did I even downvote this I wasn't even trying to read this thread?

[little wilson]

How did I even downvote this I wasn't even trying to read this thread?

 

Fixed.

[+Slowswift]

Fixed.

Thanks!

[Elbereth]

AFK: away from keyboard. It just means they're not active.

RNG: random number generator, used when determining roles and alignment. It can also be used to pick a random person out of the list of players.

Thanks!

Also, I had a thought and a question about this plan, both about Forging. I see three scenarios involving Forging:

1) A Forger Forges someone to be a Hemalurgist. If so:

a ) The HI is now guilty- it seems fairly obvious what to do. Tell the thread and make sure you get a kandra confirming your alignment and an elantrian protecting you that night.

b ) The HI is still innocent. What do you do then? Do you tell the HI, so he can include it in his count? I can see problems with this (it's a great tactic for Evil!HI to make us think he's still good), but it might be good. I don't know. Ideas?

2) You are a Hemalurgist, and you are Forged to be something else. This is the potential problem.

a ) If you were the last loyal Hemalurgist, you definitely do not want to PM the HI that you've been Forged (in case someone good Forged you by accident).

b ) But if there was another Hemalurgist left, you would want to PM the HI to make sure the count's updated.

I guess that was four scenarios. Sorry.

EDIT: I forgot that a), , c) happened.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Elbereth (Limelleth)

[phattemer]

Well, I just read through the thread, and am thoroughly confused. So we talked about the HI(L 9000. that does not make me want to trust it), and then what? Personally, I support a day 1 lynch, but I have no idea whom we should pick. I also detest the idea of a Contribution Crusade lunch day 1. They remind me a bit of the (WoT)

Whitecloaks

. But for now I will drop a vote on Shallan, because it amuses me.

[Kipper]

Gylf was surprised at the amount of conversation surrounding the HI. She believed Hellscythe's robotic assurance that he would remain trustworthy, at least for the moment. However, she saw another flaw in Kipper's relatively foolproof plan. What if a traitor falsely informed the HI that they were a hemalurgist, when in reality, they were not? It would certainly mean that the entire ship would be misinformed and perhaps trust the HI for too long. She didn't want to be a critic; Kipper's plan could work fairly well. However, she didn't want to risk a potential oversight.

As I said, it would be an approximation. If one Eliminator makes this gambit, and we have two other loyal Hemalurgists, we are still in the ball park, and can address that when the time comes.

Edit: Cow, why is revealing the numbers of Hemas in thread bad for the village? The Eliminators will know anyway when he turns, so we might as well have a safety net.

How did I even downvote this I wasn't even trying to read this thread?

Slowswift, I'd be interested to see what percentage of your posts involve you downvoting someone and asking for it to be fixed. Edited November 5, 2015 by Kipper