Long Game 15: ...The Shards Themselves...

[Creccio he/him]

Bort read the Captain's decree and shrugged. After a moment, he smiled. He had been expecting a long and busy trip, refining all kinds of metals for the allomancers, feruchemists and hemalurgists.

 

Now, the number of people who had access to such powers had been considerably cut, which meant that most of the journey could be covered by the metals Bort had already prepared. He went and locked the door to his metals storeroom, popped a chair up against it (he couldn't go too far, in case one of the 'allowed' metalborn needed metals), and pulled out his copy of Way of Kings. He always did like historical fiction.

 

Edit:

I'd also like to prod IRuleLikeSTINK, Creccio, and Haelbarde. All have been seen hanging around the thread this morning, but none have contributed.

 

Hello!

 

*contributes*

 

As far as actual contribution goes, I do not believe i have enough information right now, I have skimmed everything but i haven't had the time to actually analyze anything.

 

My first suspicion is that one of the experience players dies and we march right into the second day with that information and whatever has been gathered by PM's during the night. The first few days I don't believe much information will be released but later cycles will have much more juice to talk about.

 

I have 2 exams + huge project due this week, so if im just a ghost for this first cycle, yea...

[Kaid he/him]

Adavantos. I don't know, something just strikes me as odd right now. You seem to be an advocate for caution but I also feel that too much caution will keep us segregated as loyalists. And while I understand right now that we cannot trust anyone, I think there is room for at least a cautionary trust. I mean, the traitors already all know who their allies are. Maybe this is just me being naive but I think if we never trust anyone, the eliminators will have an easy time picking us off one by one.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Adavantos. I don't know, something just strikes me as odd right now. You seem to be an advocate for caution but I also feel that too much caution will keep us segregated as loyalists. And while I understand right now that we cannot trust anyone, I think there is room for at least a cautionary trust. I mean, the traitors already all know who their allies are. Maybe this is just me being naive but I think if we never trust anyone, the eliminators will have an easy time picking us off one by one.

 

Everything I've said up until this point has either been clarifications on the rules and the potential implications as well as advice to remain vigilant. I am by no means telling people that they should never trust anybody. I've only said to be wary of anyone who approaches us to gain trust and extort information, as well as to keep our roles a secret in order to prevent a critical leak. Very few players have any need to know another persons role. It would only benefit the crew if the pair includes a Loyalist Elantrian and a Loyalist Hemalurgist, Kandra, Forger or Mistborn.

 

The fact of the matter is there is far too much risk involved in establishing these links other than through natural play. If critical players attempt to use the HI to link them up in secret they are at risk of a betrayal. If they begin to drop hints in PMs with players that they think they can trust and they end up wrong then they are at risk of being assassinated. If they announce their role in thread with hopes of a friendly Elantrian coming to their rescue, there's no guarantee that the Elantrians are active enough to help. I have seen enough situations were a helpful role is afk for a majority of a game.

 

I've said at least once, as you can read at the end of my second to last post to trust no one unless you have a good reason to. You just said it yourself, the traitors know who their teammates are. Everyone else is up for grabs to be manipulated by them and they are not going to sit back and do nothing. It is up to each individual player to make judgment calls on who they let get close to them and who they don't, as it is up to us to determine who the liars and the schemers are.

 

Never trusting anyone doesn't make it easier for them to pick us off one by one. Unless they hit a Voidbringer or someone being protected by an Elantrian they are going to pick us off one by one regardless. If people trust others too quick and leak the identity of a kandra - for example - to the traitors, we are going to be in a lot more trouble than them just making random kills. Chances are they're going to be targeting the players who talk more often and talk the most sense, as fundamentally the encouragement of caution routes many future attempts the traitors might make to gain control of the game.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[STINK he/him]

I've been reading the thread at school on my phone, so can't contribute much but hello!

[Guest]

Just wanted to say that I do not like all this talk of the HI turning Traitor before his time. Kipper deems this a VERY BAD IDEA. Our win conditions are what they are for a reason, and I think it should (if it's not already) be against Fair Play Rules to turn on your own team because winning with another team might be easier. When you have a certain alignment, you are to stick to that alignment, and do your best for your team to win. Just because the possibility exists that your alignment might change DOES NOT MEAN that you can simply say, "Ah, storm it. Imma just pick my team now."

 

"But I could just make my alignment switch faster." Is it helpful to the village (your current team) to reveal information to the Eliminators that will result in them winning sooner? Then no, don't reveal the Hemalurgists to the Eliminators.

 

I will assume that the HI is good until proven otherwise, because that is at the core of the game. How did it get to a point where we even considered voluntarily switching Alignments an acceptable idea? If I did that, what would you guys say? I'll bet you would be mad. Oh, he gamethrew, etc. Well so is the HI, if he voluntarily helps out the Eliminators without an intention to trap them, manipulate them, etc. Gamethrowing. Now, let's all play for our win conditions, and be good boys and girls.

 

So: I think that the Hemalurgists contacting the HI and the HI revealing the quantity of Hemalurgists in thread is a good idea. Although if he does this, he needs to be all in (i.e. don't hold back a "personal" Hemalurgist or anything), because if he is not, he will be prematurely lynched. And I really don't want to lose our only confirmed good role. Again, let me repeat this. Just because doing this might hurt you later, as an Eliminator, that is not a good reason to not do this. Your win condition is for the village, and it is quite obviously helpful to the village to know when you turn.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Personally I do not see that as gamethrowing as his alignment changing is an aspect of his role. Is it gamethrowing in Town of Salem when an Amnesiac remembers he's a Consigliere to help the Mafia win when there's a Bodyguard in the graveyard and the village is mostly alive? I personally do not think so. In a perfect world I would agree with you 100%. But this is not a perfect world. Though an HI remaining loyal to the crew is certainly honorable, the very foundation of elimination games is deceit.

 

I'm not saying that we should condemn the HI. It's not like we even could if we wanted to. I'm saying there is no benefit to the Hemalurgists contacting the HI. Do you know how easy it would be to sit on the main page of this website during a night turn and continuously refresh the member list, watching for any player who enters a personal conversation around the same time that Deathclutch leaves them, and vice versa? Chances are an eliminator will do just this and take notes, targeting whoever has the most consistent pattern. Then bam, we're that much closer to losing him to their side, whether or not he betrayed us.

 

If someone can give me a good reason why a countdown would help us, please do. But I fail to see the point. It doesn't matter if he's good or if he's evil. Deathclutch is untouchable. All he is good for is a vote and scanning roles, which isn't a unique ability anymore nor one that is particularly useful to the crew. Even if we know he is evil it's not like we can kill him for it. If we want we can turn this into a mayor game and have all the useful roles contact him so he can tell the Elantrians who to protect, the Kandra who to scan, the Forgers who to forge and the Mistborn who to kill. But who here really wants that? Who thinks that would be fun, let alone fair? Unless we do this, I don't see him being confirmed as useful to us in any way other than he's one less loyalist for us to suspect / analyze / accidently lynch.

 

 

EDITED IN ONE LAST SENTENCE

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Guest]

Alignment changing is not “part of the HI's role." It's a contingency, if something else happens. And the Amnesiac example is different completely. The Amnesiac doesn't have a win condition other than "pick a role and follow their win conditions." The Amnesiac is Neutral, so he has the ability to pick a side, much like Survival in LG14.

The HI is not Neutral. He is most definitely Team Good. I'm not sure why we can't agree that players should follow their current alignment/win conditions...

I don't think it will be that easy to track PMs.

And that last paragraph...this won't turn into a mayor game, because the possibility exists that he will turn bad. But we need to know when he turns bad, so we can ignore him. Only the Hemalurgists contact him with roles, then he reveals the amount of them in thread. It was never even seriously suggested that Kandra, Surgebinders, etc., contact the HI, so I'm not sure what the point of saying that was, other than to sow dissension. Adavantos.

[Bort he/him]

 

 Is it gamethrowing in Town of Salem when an Amnesiac remembers he's a Consigliere to help the Mafia win when there's a Bodyguard in the graveyard and the village is mostly alive?

 

Umm... Maybe? Oh, oh, I worked out what this is... Shipboard entertainment!!!

 

As for the HI, it could turn on us at any time after about day three (or potentially sooner; I've really not done the maths), so I don't think it is a good idea to give it any information about ourselves. However, as the HI can scan for roles, we do need someone talking to it, otherwise the HI will just collect role information, do nothing with it, and hand the traitors a list when it turns, and we'll have completely lost out.

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Kipper: I realize that this may be an unpopular opinion, but it is one I am very adamant on. If there were any other way for us to defend against him turning besides having this become a mayor game I would agree. If we do what you suggest we put the Hemalurgists at risk. If we don't give the traitors any reason to connect a player to the HI then they are going to have to rely on their own information gathering skills themselves, which forces them to interact with other players and potentially get caught. Besides, have you already forgotten about what we learned from Dow last round? If we do what I suggest then whether or not he turns relies entirely on pure chance. I am not trying to "sow dissension." I am trying to refocus us on to a subject that will actually benefit the crew / assist in a long term victory of the village. That being said, I welcome anyone and everyone to tear apart anything I have said thus far and here on out.

 

 

EDITED FOR JUSTIFICATION AND SPELLING ERRORS

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Guest]

This is what I suggest:

1. The Hemalurgists (and ONLY the Hemalurgists) contact the HI and tell him their roles.

2. The HI posts the quantity of Hemalurgists in the thread, so we can know approximately how long we have until he turns bad. Of course, an Eliminator might lie, but this gives us an opportunity to have an approximation.

3. NOBODY ELSE tells the HI their roles. After all, he might turn bad eventually, and having a list would be bad for us.

I never said anything that would imply a mayor game. You are deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying.

[Amanuensis he/him]

For the record I never once accused you of suggesting or encouraging a mayor game. The only thing I stated is that what you are suggesting is extremely dangerous for us, and the only way to prevent it from nipping us in the butt is by ensuring those Hemalurgists are protected, which requires the HI to pass their identities to an Elantrian which also puts that player at risk.

 

For everyone's information, Dow had been watching the original thread for the last game to see which players visited it immediately after receiving their PM from Wyrm. Those five players were as follows: Deathclutch, Elbereth, Wilson, Mailliw and Lopen. If I'm not mistaken, three of those players were the Loyalist Hemalurgists. In fact, based on the vote tally I made majority actually voted that we would kill Lopen and forge Wilson to Voidbringer. How would that have turned out the next day? I wonder. My point is there are players out there who deliberately stake out these things for information, and right there shows how well it can work out. This is why I am not fond of the Hemalurgists claiming to the HI.

 

 

EDITED TO CORRECT WYRM'S NAME, SENTENCE IN ITALICS WAS ALSO ADDED TO EMPHASIZE HOW SERIOUS I AM ABOUT HOW DANGEROUS THIS IS TO THE VILLAGE

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[little wilson she/her]

I'm not sure why we can't agree that players should follow their current alignment/win conditions...

 

This is coming from mod!Wilson, not player!Wilson: While it's ideal for players to follow their current alignment/win conditions, we do not want to force players into playing a certain way. If someone would prefer to help out a team that is not their own, they have every right to make that decision, so long as the GM is okay with it.

 

As an example, in LG4, I convinced Gamma to help out the Pahn Kahl at one point. Claincy, who was the GM that game, let Gamma make that choice because Claincy knew that Gamma helping us out wouldn't change anything considering how badly that night went for us. That night and the following day made it clear that the game was horribly broken (one of the most broken games played thus far) and the PK didn't have a chance of winning even with Gamma helping us out. Now, if by some miracle the PK had won, Gamma would've lost. He knew this. By helping us, he knew he was risking a loss. There were a number of people who were upset with him after the game, despite knowing that Claincy had cleared it. But really, what was Gamma supposed to do? Go to the thread and say "Hey guys, so Wilson Aspren, Tulir, and Elo are the last PK! Wilson outed herself to me and revealed her team, thinking I was going to help them. Ha! Joke's on her! Let's kill them! Woot!" ....because that would make for a fun game.....

 

Not everyone plays the games in the competitive light of "winning is everything." Not everyone plays to win. That doesn't mean that they play to lose, but rather that they play to have fun. Sometimes, that might warrant a disregard of win condition, even with the knowledge that that means you yourself will lose. If the GM is alright with this, and it doesn't change the ultimate course of the game, then the player is free to do that. Now, if other players take issue with it, they can discuss it after the game with the impartial mod and the GM and file their complaints that way. You will be listened to and noted.

 

The main thing here is that people play how they want to. Everyone plays differently. Trying to force players to play how you think they should play takes the fun out of it.

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

First of all, Kandra if you are checking for roles I am going to assume you are a traitor and lynch you immediately. Do not check for roles. This line of action is..... Inefficient. If they are on the good side it does not matter what their role because they are on your team. We need to find out who the traitors are, not who the mistborn or the elantrians or forgers are.

 

Second, as of right now I am playing for the Loyalists. There is no eliminator play until I become an actual eliminator. If I become an actual eliminator. I play to win and with the right kind of play I have a very high chance of not even turning to the eliminator side. To think I would help the Traitors trying to dismantle my ship...... I will play to my current win condition. The Amnesiac has a neutral win condition NOT a town win condition during his first life/role. This role has no correlation to mine.

 

I am ok with the Hemalurgists claiming to me. If possible I'd also like the Elantrians to claim to me as well so my information is not completely useless other than I know an approximate of when I turn. If the Elantrians can protect Hemalurgists that gives me an extra 1-2 days of Loyalty. Not to mention that the Traitors would have to blindly(unless they have a kandra) find the Elantrians protecting them. If the Kandra check someone and find they are a Hemalurgist they can just take them out. If I have an Elantrian protecting them they then have to choose a needle in a haystack, waste a night one kill, and find the Elantrian.

 

I honestly doubt I will even turn if we get successful protections. The forgers will then be able to forge me new Elantrians and the cycle will continue. Then after the Elantrians are gone the forgers can forge new Hemalurgists. Each forge, each protection is 1 or 2 more days. These days start to add up after a while. Not to mention that unless they have a kandra and they get extremely lucky night one, they are 100% guessing and I doubt they even find a Loyal Hemalurgist.

 

 

Lastly, I have no idea what visiting the thread after receiving the PM from Wyrm means. I would've done this regardless of role. Get Role > Go to Thread > Check what role means. What other course of action is there?

 

EDIT: I am also OK with Forgers and No Roles claiming to me. It's obviously infinitely more efficient if we Forge the No Roles rather than Elantrians or Mistborns or our Kandra.

 

END OF LINE.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DeathClutch19

[Kasimir he/him]

Okay. Let's get some things clear:

1. Is the HI deciding that the odds of his turning are so high that he might as well start out playing for the Eliminators and sod the Ship entirely against Fair Play?

Unpopular But Sad Answer: No. No, it is not.

 

Hear me out here: I GMed an infamous disaster of a game known as MR7, which had a similar relevant issue pop up. To give a brief sketch of the situation for people who don't know what happened, I had a mechanic which allowed one player from each of the three main Factions to swap Faction and win condition each cycle. It just so happened that Joe was transferred from the Heritage Faction to the Moderation Faction. Now, Joe had pre-arranged with his Faction that they would immediately bribe him back as soon as the next round came along. So as far as Joe was concerned, the probability that he would remain in Moderation come the next cycle was effectively zero, or as close to zero as you could possibly get.

 

From this certainty, he decided that despite his current win con indicating he had to play for Moderation, he would not help them or disclose any information. This became a big deal and things got very tense in the doc for a while as Moderation did not take Joe's recalcitrance well at all. As the GM, I stepped in and ruled that players needed to play to their immediate win conditions. The knowledge that his team would bribe him back was insufficient to justify Joe's playing as though he was still a member of Heritage: he was not.

 

The Fair Play rules do not say anything about this kind of meta-gaming. I consider that form of meta-gaming to be cheating, and discussed the incident with the then-impartial mod, Gamma. Gamma chose to back up my ruling, as I was the GM and the Fair Play rules grant (to a certain extent) priority to how a GM chooses to enforce the rules in a game.

 

(For the record, it took nearly five cycles before Joe's team actually took him back. Which just goes to show that his certainty was, in any case, misplaced, and he would certainly have lacked justification for trying to actively sabotage Moderation.)

 

The Upshot: Fair Play does not say anything about whether the HI can or cannot play that way. We would need Word of Wyrm, which I hope to receive. And I should note that even the Word of the GM can only do so much: if players refuse to play to their win conditions or interpret them in exotic ways, there's really only so much you can do. See: MR7.

 

2. Is it problematic for the HI to play as though he were an Eliminator, starting immediately?

 

As a player, my personal opinion is that it is. I consider it a category mistake to examine the potential (no matter how high) for one's win con to change, and to play with the long view of victory in mind rather than their immediate win condition. I want to get this clear, because I noticed that Adavantos was equivocating between two subtly different cases:

 

A. You are a Citizen of Arelon (Villager). You have no powers, but the Gyorn has converted you. Furthermore, the Gyorn can appoint one Convert to be his Odiv, which would change your win condition from Village to Shu-Dereth. There are two other converts; you know your chances of switching teams are therefore currently 1/3. The claim I argue for is that until the PM from the GM comes, informing you that you are now the Odiv and that your win con has changed, it is ethically problematic, or at least pragmatically so, for a player to hedge their bets by playing in a way that sabotages the Village or by not playing as they normally would if they were a citizen.

 

B. You are a Citizen of Arelon and a Convert. You have received the PM from the GM informing you that you are now the Odiv. There is nothing wrong with sabotaging the Village.

 

A probability of conversion is built into the role. That does not entail that the role itself demands that a player hedge their bets, or play in a way that compromises their current faction in order to be better off if/when a switch comes. The example used was of a case where the conversion itself has happened. But the high probability of a conversion does not always justify such actions (this is the minimal claim I made by pointing out the example of Joe), and the stronger claim I desire to make is that such actions are always unjustified.

 

However, I am just a player. My interpretation of the Fair Play rules is my own. While Kipper shares my view, it is just as clear that Adavantos does not. Barring Word of Wyrm, we are left, furthermore, in an uneasy position as we do not know what set of norms Deathclutch endorses. The problem therefore remains.

 

3. Have players gone against their win con before?

 

This is a strictly empirical question. Yes, they have. But as far as I know, this has always been done after consulting the GM (and at times, the impartial mod as well.) Gamma went against his win con as a Villager by tacitly helping the Eliminator team in LG4 (I believe we would call this being an accomplice/aiding and abetting, in modern parlance) and later was transferred to the Eliminator team, courtesy of a ruling from Winter in MR6.

 

The Upshot: Wyrm's perspective on this issue matters. He is our Captain, and the Captain of the ship is judge, jury, executioner, priest, and god knows what else. He is vast, he contains multitudes, etcetera. Oh, and he's a window, apparently.

 

4. Can the Eliminators trace the Hemalurgists contacting the HI from looking at player activity?

 

I would actually argue that it is more complicated to do so, particularly when a number of recurring players like to send PMs to each other, and especially when you have multiple 17S tabs open at the same time. Doing so tends to grant an inconsistent result for anyone watching. In fact, though, if this is such a concern, then let's simply stipulate that everyone should leave a tab with the messenger open, so as to further muddy the waters for the Eliminators. Let us all send scores of PMs to muddy the waters.

 

Let Deathclutch switch on his PM email notifications so he can know who the Hemalurgists are, without having to reply to them and acknowledge them, and give away their identity. If you're so concerned, there are many precautions that can be taken, and we can take them since you've brought up the possibility of the Eliminators doing such. Storms, he can even open his PM at pretty weird hours rather than immediately answering PM messages.

 

(This, I note, also ignores timezone lag issues. If the Eliminators want to waste their time trying to work out who is doing what with the PMs, I invite them to do so. If they want to write a program to do it, go ahead. I'd much rather they waste their time sorting out signals from the noise than trying to think of ways to kill us.)

 

5. Can Deathclutch be trusted?

 

I don't know. At the end of the day, this game boils down very much to trust and the honour system, like it or not. We have no guarantee he won't see things the way Adavantos does. We have no guarantee that he will play to his current win con; neither do we have any guarantee that we will get a positive ruling from Wyrm--even less do we have a guarantee that Deathclutch will abide by that ruling! My players certainly didn't always do that.

 

Fortunately or otherwise, SE is tightly-bound to the honour system. We trust that the recurring players will not tell each other their roles, or communicate during an SE game with no PMs. (I myself regularly correspond with Wyrm, Maili and Wilson among others--it's only the honour system that 'guarantees' that Maili and myself or Wilson and myself have not been surreptitiously relaying information to each other behind the scenes in our regular non-game interactions.) We trust that players who claim to be inactive because of being busy in real life really are busy rather than Eliminators trying to get a free pass.

 

And quite frankly, I think there are some things it's best to stick to the Honour System with. I think that the day we start treating all these utterances and acts as suspicious is the day that SE drastically changes, and perhaps not the better. The day a player actively breaks this robust honour system will be gamechanging. Unfortunately for us.

 

Does this suggest to trust Deathclutch? I don't know. One could just as easily argue that trusting a player not to meta-game in the way Adavantos favours is a different kettle of fish from trusting a player not to abuse the meta-game by feigning RL issues and going inactive to avoid detection. I myself do not consider that line of argument appealing.

 

6. Does this matter?

 

Sadly, no, so can we all move on and talk about other things? I think we've discussed the issue to death, and unless it just so happens that all of us are the Hemalurgists, then this is purely an academic discussion. Our dissension, like it or not, has sown confusion: it is in the hands of the Hemalurgists to decide whether they would favour my arguments or Adavantos's. At the end of the day, the choice is theirs, and there's nothing more to be said about it.
 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Lastly, I have no idea what visiting the thread after receiving the PM from Wyrm means. I would've done this regardless of role. Get Role > Go to Thread > Check what role means. What other course of action is there?

 

I began as a Traitor Feruchemist last round. Wyrm put in my PM a list of all the actions I could take as a Feruchemist. He did the same for every other role that could take an action. The only role that was not simply roleless was the Hemalurgist, which while important can not take any actions. Therefore - not knowing that Wyrm did this for every player who had a role - they were more likely to go to the original thread with the rules list and see what they could do, only to find out they couldn't do anything. Make sense?

 

 

EDITED FOR SPELLING ERRORS

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[DeathClutch19 he/him]

As you may know I have had no powers up until the point where I died. In both LG15a and LG15b my tiny human body was Loyal but powerless. I did not know that the captain sent you your actions.

 

EDIT: If I were to immediately choose to side with the Eliminators from round 1(Which I am not) that would be playing against my win condition. If I was the kind of player to play against my win condition what is to stop me from telling you all the Traitors the second I turn and get put into the Traitor Doc.

 

Edit B: Me pming means nothing. Do not think anything of it. I may pm moderators, forgers, no roles, elantrians, hemalurgists, even traitors! I also almost always have 2-3 tabs of 17th shard open at all times. What this does to people trying to see if I'm pming? Indiscernable.

 

END OF LINE.

Edited November 4, 2015 by DeathClutch19

[Kasimir he/him]

Also, as a quick clarification: I'm not a fan of anyone else reporting to Deathclutch besides the Hemalurgists, and I would admit that I am a bit unsure about the wisdom of Plan: Have the Hemalurgists Report To The HI until we get some Word of Wyrm on the matter. As I see it, you can't take back anything you've already said; there's no sense in forcing the issue now, and the risks greatly grow with giving the HI access to some of the more meaty roles.
 
And since I forgot: Orlok. Sorry man, didn't know my timing was so bad. Must've been storing luck

[Bort he/him]

There is one thing I wish we could do. Not just for this game, but for all SE games...

 

Find out who all the 'Guests' are. To the tune of the Eagles...

 

"Welcome to the Hotel Elimination..."

[Amanuensis he/him]

I could not agree more with anything that Kas just said. He has offerred legitmate defenses to the problems that I have listed; problems that I never realized existed until last game when I witnessed first hand how much information someone can get from what I will refer to as a "stake out." My entire point has been that discussing this subject is not beneficial to us; not now, not five cycles now, not when the game is finished. Players are going to do what they think is best. I am just offering people a different way to look at things in case they never would have seen the dangers themselves.

 

Anyway, I am about to list the players that have posted thus far that I currently suspect of being evil. I am fairly certain that at least one of the players I'm listing is evil, if not more: Creccio, Burnt Spaghetti, Wilson, Mailliw, Araris, Arraenae and Bort.

 

For other peoples reference, the following players have yet to post: Paranoid King, Honey Badger, Shallan, phattemer, polkinghorndb, Elbereth, Elkanah, dowanx, Zed and Biggoron. Of these ten, Shallan and phatt are habitually AFK and dowanx very rarely posts unless he is addressed specifically / voted against.

 

 

EDITED FOR JUSTIFICATION

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Bort he/him]

Anyway, I am about to list the players that have posted thus far that I currently suspect of being evil. I am fairly certain that at least one of the players I'm listing is evil, if not more: Creccio, Burnt Spaghetti, Wilson, Mailliw, Araris, Arraenae and Bort.

 

Why do you suspect that at least one of these players is evil?

 

Truth be told, the more I hear from you, the more suspicious I become that you are a traitor. You seemed to be trying too hard to push an agenda that may or may not be beneficial to the loyalists.

[Clanky he/him]

 

Anyway, I am about to list the players that have posted thus far that I currently suspect of being evil. I am fairly certain that at least one of the players I'm listing is evil, if not more: Creccio, Burnt Spaghetti, Wilson, Mailliw, Araris, Arraenae and Bort.

 

 With seven player and about 20-25% eliminators you would be unlucky not to guess at least one eliminator if you just used a RNG to decide who you think is guilty.

 

Also I agree With Deathclutch about Kandras checking for roles. That is not nearly as important as searching for Traitors. It is generally understood that you cannot trust a seeker to be good since the Eliminators always know your role. Also if the Traitors have a Kandra they can just scan your role and say that they scanned both your role and alignment much easier than a loyal Kandra can

[Guest]

This is coming from mod!Wilson, not player!Wilson: While it's ideal for players to follow their current alignment/win conditions, we do not want to force players into playing a certain way. If someone would prefer to help out a team that is not their own, they have every right to make that decision, so long as the GM is okay with it.

As an example, in LG4, I convinced Gamma to help out the Pahn Kahl at one point. Claincy, who was the GM that game, let Gamma make that choice because Claincy knew that Gamma helping us out wouldn't change anything considering how badly that night went for us. That night and the following day made it clear that the game was horribly broken (one of the most broken games played thus far) and the PK didn't have a chance of winning even with Gamma helping us out. Now, if by some miracle the PK had won, Gamma would've lost. He knew this. By helping us, he knew he was risking a loss. There were a number of people who were upset with him after the game, despite knowing that Claincy had cleared it. But really, what was Gamma supposed to do? Go to the thread and say "Hey guys, so Wilson Aspren, Tulir, and Elo are the last PK! Wilson outed herself to me and revealed her team, thinking I was going to help them. Ha! Joke's on her! Let's kill them! Woot!" ....because that would make for a fun game.....

Not everyone plays the games in the competitive light of "winning is everything." Not everyone plays to win. That doesn't mean that they play to lose, but rather that they play to have fun. Sometimes, that might warrant a disregard of win condition, even with the knowledge that that means you yourself will lose. If the GM is alright with this, and it doesn't change the ultimate course of the game, then the player is free to do that. Now, if other players take issue with it, they can discuss it after the game with the impartial mod and the GM and file their complaints that way. You will be listened to and noted.

The main thing here is that people play how they want to. Everyone plays differently. Trying to force players to play how you think they should play takes the fun out of it.

I did not know that. Thank you for pointing that out. My objections to what Adavantos is saying are now purely semantic, but even so, my vote against him stands.

Edit: But I still think it should be against Fair Play.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Guest

[Amanuensis he/him]

Up until this point I have been keeping track of and summarizing every post each player has made throughout the game so far. Here they are for others to reference.

 

Stink

First post. Off-topic. Page 3: Replies to Bort informing him that while he is at school / on his phone hence why he is unable to participate for the time being.

 

Alvron

Joke-votes Wyrm. Retracts (but not in the original post). Brings up HI discussion again, continuing to push for contact to be established between Hemalurgists and the HI. Thanks Clanky for reminding him of a fact he forgot. Page 2: Says he expects to die or be scanned very early. Expresses hopes that eliminators will let him so that he can be lynched later on for still being alive. Says he would have joke-voted for Wyrm regardless of what side he was on. Perpetuates BB’s off topic post.

 

 

Creccio

Joke-votes Alvron. Retracts. Page 3: Emphasizes that he is contributing. Does not provide any information relevant to this turn, but predicts that an experienced player will be killed by next cycle and some players would have gathered information through PMs that may be of use. Does not believe that we will have much to work with for the first few days.

 

 

Kipper

Posts countdown timer. Joke-votes Alvron. Continues to joke while retracting vote (but not in original post). Page 2: Defends Alvron from Wilson citing the same reasons as Alv and Mail. Says he doesn’t see why BB would be suspicious. Votes for Kas for only posting an image. Eventually retracts vote from Kas after his explanation. Page 4: Argues that the HI should not be treated as a traitor already and encourages him to play to his current alignment, as otherwise that would be "gamethrowing." Supports Hemalurgists telling the HI. Places a second vote on Adavantos for bringing up the possibility of a mayor game as a means to sow dissension. Accuses Adavantos of deliberately misinterpretting what he is saying.

 

 

Ripple

RP post responding to Alvron’s vote. Accepts Alfa’s appology. Expresses suspicions of BB but does not vote. Page 3: Short post saying Kas’ plan seems sound but also advises the chance of the HI betraying us.

 

Adavantos

Provides advice to Uninvested Crewmembers. Page 3: Provides opinion on HI situation and advice for all players regardless of role / the Kandra specifically. I mention the possibility that Alvron, Kipper, Stink and myself will likely be killed early on to keep the crew guessing. I also remind people that with the Kandra gaining the ability to scan either role or alignment that the traitors may very well have one. Later uses math to predict when the HI will turn and asks that if a Kandra manages to find a Loyal Hemalurgist and Loyal Elantrian to have them work together to ensure the HI doesn’t switch sides. Challenges Kipper’s opinion of the HI turning himself into a traitor as "gamethrowing." Affirms that the HI is immune to all actions and that we need to focus on a subject other than him for the long term benefit of the village. Emphasizes the dangers associated with the Hemalurgists informing the HI of their identities.

 

Bridge Boy

Places serious vote on Alvron for his joke-vote on Wyrm. Continues to push his suspicions on Alvron for the joke-vote after everyone else retracts. BB says he know the eliminators can’t sweep in for a victory like last time, but he doesn’t want them to sweep in for a kill either. The two do not correlate. Alvron voting for Wyrm in the beginning does nothing to foreshadow a last minute mob lynch. If the traitors did that anyway it would only benefit the village by revealing targets for the Mistborn to attack that night and for the lynch the next day. BB responds to Cow’s OOC. Says he wants to lynch someone suspicious rather than blindly voting for someone, which contradicts the blind suspicion he is holding over Alvron’s head. Page 2: Off topic jokes regarding wording in HI’s previous post.

 

Alfa

Misunderstands Ripple’s previous post. Votes for her. Retracts with apology.

 

Clanky

Clanky: Provides clarification to Alvron regarding Forgers and Hemalurgists. Responds to Cow’s OOC. Asks Wyrm a question: Answer - if a person with a forged role dies their original is revealed in the write-up and it enters the pool of possibly forgable roles if applicable.

 

Wilson

Calls Bridge Boy out, citing current win condition. Expresses suspicion of BB for his posts in thread and Alvron for a conversation they had between the two games. Decides not to jump from one vote to another nor poke vote, yet says she wants discussion without instigating it. Page 2: Says she is leaning towards Alv being good but references that she did not suspect Alv last round when he was evil. Mentions she is usually paranoid when it comes to his alignment. “While it’s ideal for player’s to follow their current alignment / win conditions, we do not want to force player’s into playing a certain way."

 

Cow

Asks OOC about how much roleplaying is advised. Says he does not understand why anyone would be suspicious of Alvron and asks for clarification.

 

Mailliw

Agrees with Wilson’s post. Notes suspicion of BB, but references last game as a reason to hold out. Calls out Kas, Burnt and Lopen. Says he doesn’t care if the HI and the Hemalurgists get in contact, but brings up possibility of a traitor being among the latter. Says he would have expected Alvron to done the joke-vote regardless of the side he is on and thus does not let it affect his opinion of him.

 

Kas

O Captain My Captain meme alone. Later posts another meme in response to Kipper then says OOC that he is not in the right mind to analyze due to being half-asleep. Another unhelpful post, this time all RP. Page 3: Large post responding to Arraenae for calling him out. Says he is toning down his seriousness this game to encourage maximum fun but will return to his old ways if necessary. Echoes what I said about not revealing roles and too practice safe personal messaging. Joke vote for himself. Retracts and votes for Orlok as a way to draw his attention / opinion. Says there is no harm in the Hemalurgists contacting the HI, but does not think the HI should becoming a nexus of information. Generates rather large and informative post that includes legitimate defenses to the problems that I listed; conclusion, likely good.

 

Araris

Short post regarding his opinion of the Alvron situation, says he will post more later.

 

Arraenae

Uses RP to express suspicions of BB and Kas. Calls Kas out for not waiting until he has some sleep to post something.

 

Burnt Spaghetti

Says she has no reason to suspect anyone so far and that she likely won’t vote, but then brings up how we could gain information through a lynch and also from a Kandra next cycle. Asks the HI why he voted against her.

 

Lopen

Supports Hemalurgists messaging the HI. Mentions possibility of 2 Mistborn to balance out increase in players. Guesses at the roles of the traitors, 5 with roles, 2 roleless. Mentions surprise that the traitors had a Surgebinder last game but ignores the fact that they could get him lynched themselves to remove conversation from the game and clear themselves of suspicion at the same time. Says he could vote for Wilson like last round but doesn’t really “feel like it.”

 

Orlok

Responds to Kas’ vote in 15 minutes. Expresses opinion that the Hemalurgists contacting the HI is a bad idea. Says he is not suspicious of BB for his reaction because he would have been advised to behave differently by his eliminators (which is not always the case as seen with Honey last round).

 

Queensteph

Posts that she has no suspicions and will save her vote for now. Thanks me for advice.

 

Bort

Says he expected someone to make the joke and thus doesn’t suspect Alvron. Votes for BB for his “strong reaction.” A little later posts a small paragraph of RP and calls out two players and a spectator who was viewing the thread but had not said anything since the first page. After Kipper votes for Adavantos says that he agrees we should not reveal to the HI but someone needs to be in contact with him so all the information he gains is not lost to the traitors entirely upon him switching sides. Off-topic comment.

 

Kaid

Votes for me while providing counterpoints regarding my press for vigilance.

 

 

@Bort: My suspicion with you began with your vote on Bridge Boy. Personally I do not think any eliminator in their right mind would have reacted the way he did, especially one with experience in Sanderson Elimination. I think you put the second vote on him simply because at the time he was the best patsy available and hoped to instigate a bandwagon. While I approve of your next post where you call out two players and a spectator, you have not provided any significant imput on the discussion at hand. While you do provide the an alternative idea - that the HI be in contact with someone on the good side so that he can reveal what he learns through his scans - there is no way that he can know for certain that the player he is telling that information to is good and therefore I find it to be a poor plan and one that a traitor would suggest in a light that seems like it would be good for the crew. I am a firm believer in my interpretation of the contribution crusade, in that player's that are unhelpful to the crew / that are likely eliminators are the ones who attempt to skate by without investing themselves too much into the conversation for fear of making enemies or drawing attention to themselves. It has been consistently shown that the most vocal players are the ones who end up lynched or killed by the eliminators overnight, and thus it's an ideal zone of comfortable for one to hide in while the village tears at each other's throats.

 

 

EDITED OUT SPELLING / GRAMMAR ERRORS

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos

[Guest]

Two questions:

1. For the GM, do we have to retract votes in the original post in this game?

2. Adavantos, just curious, why do you have edit your posts for justification? I'm quite used to seeing that now...

[Amanuensis he/him]

It's really just a matter of personal preference, but it bothers me very much if margins are uneven; especially if my name is in front of it.

 

EDIT: I see 5 other players viewing the thread right now but not participating in the conversation. Can more people please get involved?

 

EDIT PART DEUX: I appreciate the vote of confidence Stink, though I would rather hear your opinion on other subjects that have been brought up as well.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Adavantos