Lift's Specialities

[Gamma Fiend]

Oh yes, Syl would get some payback. I think an interesting conversation would be Syl and Wyndel. I believe Syl is more Honor based than Cultivation, so they might not be too familiar with eachother.

How much better would it be if Kaladin had Wyndel though? He could actually sit down, and have a very thorough, in-depth conversation with him and figure out so much about the nature of Spren and Surgebinding. But Brandon made the right call. Lift and Syl would just be too ridiculous of a team.
(That's of course ignoring the type of Spren they are relating to what Surges they give, but just personality wise. And not getting into why Wyndel remembers and knows more than Syl, etc.)

[cem]

How much better would it be if Kaladin had Wyndel though? He could actually sit down, and have a very thorough, in-depth conversation with him and figure out so much about the nature of Spren and Surgebinding.

You were annoyed Lift cuts Wyndle off when he starts giving us information too, huh? As much as it sucks though, I think Kaladin without Syl would just be terrible.

[Mailliw73]

I know, I'd be like, yes! New info about surgebinding, ah never mind. Lift cut him off at all the good parts. I think Lift meeting Jasnah would be the best, or maybe Hoid/Wit.

Jasnah: "Shallan, I found this theory about Voidbinders,"

Lift: " I have one of those. He's my pet, I captured him with words and now he does whatever I say."

Jasnah's expression would be priceless.

[Shardlet]

Hmm, I admit -- partially contrary to what I said a few days ago -- that Lift indeed nearly instantly "got awesome" after eating something. That could mean she metabolizes Stormlight from each source she gets -- but also from her own body (this is why Wyndle was worried).

 

I am more inclined to think that she can generate stormlight from food directly or her body's natural energy stores (namely, fat).  If she is well fed she has an on demand stormlight fuel tank.  But, if she needs to, as is the case in the interlude, she can metabolize the food directly to produce stormlight.  Wyndle's concern likely comes from concerns about her obtaining more stormlight for when she needs it.  If this is accurate, this (Wyndle's concern) may suggest that she is unable to infuse from spheres.

[marianmi]

Bear in mind that we don't actually know exactly what stormlight is... at first look it may be the magic focus... but it may be more than that...

I wonder if the black sphere contains some "odium stormlight" that is like lerasium... whoever takes it become a powerful odium warrior ... and that would mean that 

* we may see some Honor concentrated stormlight to turn one into a Herald

* there is not enough "concentrated" Honour left, so the normal stormlight is bits of Honour power...

* there is not enough "concentrated" Honour left, but normal stormlight has nothing to do with Honour

* .... ?

 

Also, was this theory discussed before?

Heralds have all surges. They are like mistborn. KR were formed way later, even as a surprise to Honour. They are just mistings-like, and can access just 2 surges each.

Edited October 27, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom]

Stormlight is investiture. Each Shard can grant investiture based on the world that it is related to. On Roshar, the base investiture seems to be light, just as on Scadrial the base investiture is metal.

 

It's possible that the 'Orb of Shadows' is a splinter of Odium. (Yes, I just coined a new term!)

 

I don't believe that the Heralds had access to all the surges. If the Heralds had access to all the surges, it makes less sense why each Radiant Order had a specific Herald as a patron. I believe that Heralds had additional abilities related to the surges they represent. For instance, if Kaladin as a Wind Runner, can ride a storm, Jezrien as the Storm Father could become the storm. Instead of being a passenger, Jezrien may have the ability to control the strength and speed of a Highstorm to a certain degree. This would allow him to focus its strength in certain locations, spend more time examining what may be occurring in an area, etc.

 

Due to the fact that each Knight Radiant is bonded to a splinter of Honor, I don't believe it's likely the KR are individually that much weaker than the Herald who is their patron. I believe that in many ways they are equal, but that the Heralds have an extra tier of abilities that a KR lacks. This also may have changed to some degree Post-Splintering.

[Windrunner]

I don't think that metal and Stormlight are analogous. The metals aren't the actual spiritual fuel, that power comes from Ruin and/or Preservation. Stormlight is the fuel for Surgebinding, and is likely derived from one or more Shards.

[Gloom]

I think that's splitting hairs Windrunner. I also don't think Brandon ever specifically said that Stormlight was fuel rather than a catalyst like metal. I could be wrong, and I'd be happy to see the source for this information.

[Satsuoni]

AoL Ars Arcanum and numerous other sources identify metal as trigger and gateway for Investiture, not Investiture itself. Just as Mist is analogous to Stormlight, the closest Roshar analog to metal would be gems.

[Gloom]

So by this you're saying that all Alomancers burn mist as fuel?

 

I know this has happened, in certain conditions, but I'm pretty sure that this isn't the way Alomancy functions under ordinary circumstances. Like I said, it's splitting hairs. I don't think that the Shards on Roshar are blind to gemstones. The only power a gemstones hold is the ability to store Stormlight and trap spren. Brandon has said this is a function of the mineral make-up of the gems, but he never said that they were the trigger or gateway to Surgebinding.

 

I'm also not certain that I would classify the 'Orb of Shadows' as a gemstone.

 

As to the rest of my original post...I'll take your lack of comment as complete agreement.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Gloom

[Satsuoni]

Hm, lack of comment was more rlated to the fact that I don't like to type on my phone... So now that I am home, here are the relevant quotes:

First, Stormlight is like Mist on Scadrial:

Wetlander: Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor? (Brandon spoke over the word Honor in starting his response)

 

A: The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet.

 

From Ars Arcanum:

The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.

 

From interview database (could somebody fix the links on the names there? they all give errors. Wait, that is because TWG archive is dead):

The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing.

[...]

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy.

 

So, no, normal Allomancers do not burn mists - they tap Investiture from Shards without having it in the physical realm (which is where the mists are manifested)

Metal is a gateway:

 

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power.

 

So there are similarities between two systems, but they are not identical  - Surgebinders cannot draw Stormlight from ether/Spiritual realm or wherever it happens to be normally - they need it in gems or their body, a physical manifestation, and they use spren to filter it (presumably).

Ok, now to other things:

He pulled out a small crystalline sphere tied to a chain. “You must take this. They must not get it.” He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”

Gavilar fell still.

Szeth hesitated, then knelt down and took the sphere. It was odd, unlike any he’d seen before. Though it was completely dark, it seemed to glow somehow. With a light that was black.

Sphere is described as "crystalline", so presumably it is a kind of gem filled with something other than stormlight:

(from the link above)

The dark light of the, um, the gemstone that Szeth was given is indeed something different and distinct.

 

It is unlikely that Odium has splinters - he is greedy with his power, and I highly doubt that the sphere is self-aware (not sentient, but the splinter has to have self-awareness). It might be a bit of his power, though. *might* . He has been on Roshar long enough to his power to seep into the world, after all, so he is stuck. (where is the quote for that?)

 

Let's see, the rest of your post

I don't believe that the Heralds had access to all the surges. If the Heralds had access to all the surges, it makes less sense why each Radiant Order had a specific Herald as a patron. I believe that Heralds had additional abilities related to the surges they represent. For instance, if Kaladin as a Wind Runner, can ride a storm, Jezrien as the Storm Father could become the storm. Instead of being a passenger, Jezrien may have the ability to control the strength and speed of a Highstorm to a certain degree. This would allow him to focus its strength in certain locations, spend more time examining what may be occurring in an area, etc.

Let's say... partial agreement. Maybe the Heralds could just be immortal and draw on Stormlight directly from Spiritual? That would make them plenty powerful.

 

Due to the fact that each Knight Radiant is bonded to a splinter of Honor, I don't believe it's likely the KR are individually that much weaker than the Herald who is their patron. I believe that in many ways they are equal, but that the Heralds have an extra tier of abilities that a KR lacks. This also may have changed to some degree Post-Splintering.

 

Yes, partial agreement

Edited October 28, 2013 by Satsuoni

[Kurkistan]

Here's a fixed link to that interview database quote, Sats. It's all about going to the source Q&A and adding in a '#<number>' for the appropriate post.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727#45

 

Another quote to pile on, as well: As you mentioned, Gloom, stormlight is Investiture. And as Sats has just shown you, metals are most definitely not. The strong implication of all of this is that stormlight is the fuel for surgebinding. This difference is more than "splitting hairs", I think.

[Alterodent]

What if lift could persuade a group of windspren to ferry her around? 

[Gloom]

Might be a bit hazardous seeing as from what we've seen of Syl, windspren don't seem capable of remembering for very long. Syls more direct tie to Honor, and through that tie to Kaladin makes her an exception. So getting the windspren together, then getting them to agree, then making sure they don't forget at 3000' AGL might be problematic.

[Argent]

I almost feel like it would be more feasible for her to buy herself a glider and use that instead. As I understand it, Wyndle is actually quite a large spren, so Lift would need more than just a few windspren for this to work, since they are not terribly big themselves. Considering that a normal gust of wind will attract only a few (pseudo guess based on a scene where Kaladin sees a few windspren during one of the bridge runs; he doesn't remark on a particularly strong wind, so I imagine a few spren in normal wind are normal), and that spren, even the common ones, don't always show up, and that windspren are not terribly sentient, I doubt Lift will be able to do something like this.

[EvilNuff]

How did y'all reach the conclusion that Darkness = Nalan?

[marianmi]

Ok, so the "body" of a shard (the "power") is usually found in a different realm (spiritual) but can be transferred/manifested in the physical realm in different ways. In mistborn, you have:

* metal that acts as gateway to the power from the spiritual realm

* mists that are physical gas form of the power => fuel

* lerasium that is physical solid form of the power => create mistborn

* liquid form => "most potent"

 

Now, if we look at the fabrials, the cut and type of a gem attracts a spren, then you need a pattern for the stormlight that determines the thing that the fabrial does.

One question here is: does the gemstone has another role besides attracting/imprisoning a spren?

 

We've seen that any person can be picked by spren for a bond, it does not need certain "attributes". Nohadon's comment that "not all spren are as discerning as honourspren" can then be interpreted as honourspren being the only ones "attracted" by certain attributes in a person, and that would not bond with "anyone". They are more "discerning" in the type of person they bond with. (That would make Ym's spren 100% honour, attracted by his good nature and not "assigned" to him).

In any case, let's say that the human acts like the gemstone here, the "cut" and "type" of the person "attracting" one way or another a spren. Then you need a pattern for the stormlight ... these patterns being the surges glyphs? We know that the plates and blades have glyphs on them... granting their users additional "powers" probably...

 

New theory: KR's spren "live" in the plate (not a simple plate to start with, but an invested object)... the plate would be like the gemstone in a fabrial, with patterns being the glyphs on the armour (from Navani's notebook we know they are not visible by the eye, Dalinar sees them only when stormlight is filtered through them) but the spren is not captured in the plate, it can leave whenever it wants - like when the KRs dropped their armour in the day of recreance. So without the spren, you have the plate, but it does not act like a fabrial anymore. 

 

 

Next, BS said that highstorms are like the mists. Highstorms, not stormlight... So then one expression of Honour's "body" in the physical realm would be a highstorm... Stormlight would be the "gateway" to the storm, and it would be like the metal in allomancy.

 

New theory: a high storm is a physical manifestation of Honour's "body"

 

(now, Eshonai sister's comment "I have discovered the storm form" gives me the chills...)

 

Of course, there can be different other forms, more solid, of a shard's body. I'm thinking here... shardblades! Or maybe dawnblades?

 

New theory: a shard(dawn?)blade is the physical solid form of a shard's "body"

 

The theory that plates and blades are very different it's old, and I agree with it. It's obvious they are both invested. But I would go further and say that the plate is invested by Cultivation (it grows when you feed it stormlight), while the blades are invested by Honour. Even more, the blades are not only invested by Honour, they ARE Honour. They can be dismissed to the spiritual realm, where the rest of the "power" resides... 

 

So here, three new theories...

[marianmi]

How did y'all reach the conclusion that Darkness = Nalan?

 

He seems old, knowledgeable, looks like a perverted just/confident person, has a different type of shardblade (like Szeth's...) and he might be the person seen by Jasnah (in her chapter) accompanied by another herald, talking about "Ash" getting worse (presumably Shallash). The other person was saying that "creature" (Szeth?) has his lord's (king?) sword (Jezrien's sword, the lord/king of the heralds).

[Gloom]

We've seen that any person can be picked by spren for a bond, it does not need certain "attributes". Nohadon's comment that "not all spren are as discerning as honourspren" can then be interpreted as honourspren being the only ones "attracted" by certain attributes in a person, and that would not bond with "anyone". They are more "discerning" in the type of person they bond with. (That would make Ym's spren 100% honour, attracted by his good nature and not "assigned" to him).

 

I believe that all spren are discerning in their own way. I believe that Nohadon was referring to the character of the Surgebinders when he made that statement. A creative person can be either good or bad, but they remain creative, so they could attract a bonding spren that had an affinity towards creative people. Honorspren, I believe, are attached to higher ideals, which would make them more concerned with character.

 

Next, BS said that highstorms are like the mists. Highstorms, not stormlight... So then one expression of Honour's "body" in the physical realm would be a highstorm... Stormlight would be the "gateway" to the storm, and it would be like the metal in allomancy.

 

I am more than happy to agree with this part of the theory.

 

The only problem with this is the following quote:

 

Q: What is Stormlight?

A: I don't want to answer this, but I'll just say "Investiture."

 

I still feel that the theory you proposed is more consistent with Brandons other magic systems than the alternate theory that Stormlight is merely gasoline or electricity.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Gloom

[dionysus]

Due to the fact that each Knight Radiant is bonded to a splinter of Honor

 

Are all Spren of Honor? Where is this confirmed? It seems pretty clear that Wyndle is from Cultivation and maybe also Honor. I recall a WoB that said something about spren that can be from both Cultivation and Honor, but don't recall if all spren have to be both.

[Argent]

No, you are right, they are either of Honor, or of Cultivation, or of some mixture between them. Apparently there are some that are of Adonalsium too, which really muddies my waters...

[marianmi]

The only problem with this is the following quote:

 

 

I still feel that the theory you proposed is more consistent with Brandons other magic systems than the alternate theory that Stormlight is merely gasoline or electricity.

 

It's not necessary a problem. In mistborn, metal, something "common", was the focus that allowed you to access the power. Here, stormlight can have that role, and be something that is not "common". Something more.

However, it's clear that highstorms are not just a carrier of stormlight, since Kaladin was able to become one with the storm, and see through that. I think a good question for BS would be: after the storm, is Kaladin a sliver?

 

Let's not forget that BS's magic revolves around cycles. In Mistborn, you had 1000 years for Ruin's power to gather at the well. Here, you have 2 cycles: Desolations, and Highstorms. 2 shards. Since highstorms are more frequent, I would say that means you have less power, or the power is released before gathering enough to become a full shard?

[WeiryWriter]

It's not necessary a problem. In mistborn, metal, something "common", was the focus that allowed you to access the power. Here, stormlight can have that role, and be something that is not "common". Something more.

However, it's clear that highstorms are not just a carrier of stormlight, since Kaladin was able to become one with the storm, and see through that. I think a good question for BS would be: after the storm, is Kaladin a sliver?

 

Let's not forget that BS's magic revolves around cycles. In Mistborn, you had 1000 years for Ruin's power to gather at the well. Here, you have 2 cycles: Desolations, and Highstorms. 2 shards. Since highstorms are more frequent, I would say that means you have less power, or the power is released before gathering enough to become a full shard?

 

I'm reasonably sure stormlight the focus on Roshar, it is analagous to the mists on Scadrial, not the metal.

 

Kaladin is definitely not a Sliver, he has not held the majority of a Shard's power. Also I would not say he "became one with the storm."  He did ride the stormwinds but I personally don't view that as becoming one with the storm.

 

A couple of nitpicks, it was 1024 years and it was Preservation's power not Ruin.

 

Also what do you mean by that last bit?

[marianmi]

What does "ride the stormwinds" mean? Definitely Kaladin's body did not left the roof. Also, did he "ride the stormwinds" because there was stormlight in the storm? Or because of something else? BS said that the storm is more like the mists, not the stormlight, hence my assumption that the storm is the body, and the stormlight is the means of accessing the power.

 

By last bit I mean that maybe this is how Odium has permanently splintered Honour - he doesn't have a shardpool anymore, and instead the power is released in each highstorm, before it has a chance to "accumulate".

 

And then, maybe a Desolation is started when Odium's shardpool is full...

Edited October 29, 2013 by marianmi

[WeiryWriter]

What does "ride the stormwinds" mean? Definitely Kaladin's body did not left the roof. Also, did he "ride the stormwinds" because there was stormlight in the storm? Or because of something else? BS said that the storm is more like the mists, not the stormlight, hence my assumption that the storm is the body, and the stormlight is the means of accessing the power.

 

By last bit I mean that maybe this is how Odium has permanently splintered Honour - he doesn't have a shardpool anymore, and instead the power is released in each highstorm, before it has a chance to "accumulate".

 

And then, maybe a Desolation is started when Odium's shardpool is full...

 

His consciousness rode the storm.  Stormlight might have been a factor, I don't know.  (I believe it has been theorized that stormriding was the Windrunner's third power?)  Hmm... my mistake I thought he had compared the mists with stormlight.  I'm still confident stormlight is not a focus, it doesn't fit with the other known foci in my opinion.

 

Why do you say Honor doesn't have a shardpool anymore?  Devotion's (or Dominion's we don't Know but it really has to be Devotion's) shardpool still exists long after it has been splintered.

 

I would also like to note that not all shardpools (namely Devotion's) have the refilling mechanic that the Well has.