Kaymyth she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 True. Also, #15 on the "If I Were the Hero" list: That list is the best, and the list it references, is basically a list of stupid things characters do and what you'd do differently. #90 needs revision. It should say, "I will never, ever wear heels." Stop. Period. No actiony hero should ever wear heels. 2
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 #90 needs revision. It should say, "I will never, ever wear heels." Stop. Period. No actiony hero person who wants to cover more ground than the standard-size dance floor* should ever wear heels. * Fixed. Seriously, I don't see why those things are so popular. The only shoes with heels I will wear are boots with one-inch wedge-type heels. Coincidentally, those shoes don't feel like you're wearing heels at all.
Kaymyth she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 * Fixed. Seriously, I don't see why those things are so popular. The only shoes with heels I will wear are boots with one-inch wedge-type heels. Coincidentally, those shoes don't feel like you're wearing heels at all. I finally cleaned all of the heels out of my closet. My knees just can't take them anymore. Nowadays, my "dress shoes" are Doc Marten combat boots. 1
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I finally cleaned all of the heels out of my closet. My knees just can't take them anymore. Nowadays, my "dress shoes" are Doc Marten combat boots. If I want to dress up an outfit, I'll wear some nice ballet flats…. ….or some cute boots. I haven't worn heels since my high school prom, and even then I stashed them in the coat closet and danced barefoot. If I ever get married, I will do it in flats or sandals. 1
Edgedancer he/him Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 That's another trope that bugs me—the Hero is always the reckless sort who jumps into action without considering the consequences, and the Villain is always a Chessmaster. Like all other tropes, it has been done well; Harry Potter and Reckoners come to mind as two works that didn't gloss over the consequences of having a reckless hero, and made their heroes likable regardless. What bugs me is when a work features a hero whose recklessness makes him dumb, while the villain is a veritable genius who is inexplicably brought down by the hero who should have died in his first skirmish because he didn't think to bring enough ammo. While the story usually means to impress us with the hero's ability to improvise and think on his feet, it just makes him look ridiculously lucky and undermines claims of the villain's intelligence. And I understand why writers do it. It's easier to generate tension when the villain is always one step ahead of the hero, and the best way to keep him one step ahead is to make him a Chessmaster. I don't know if flipping that dynamic is even possible—and if it is, I'm sure I don't have the skill for it yet—but why can't we have more Chessmaster vs. Chessmaster stories? I think that's part of what made X-Men: First Class such a breath of fresh air: Charles Xavier, Erik Lensherr, and Sebastian Shaw are all Chessmasters with different agendas. Xavier wants to unite mutants and humans and has a plan for it; Lensherr wants revenge on the Nazi who broke him and has a plan for it; Shaw wants to cause WWIII and put mutants on top and has a plan for it. The fun comes not in watching a hero with no plan to speak of defeat a villain who is always one step ahead, but from seeing the friction when these plans cross. On the top of my head I can think of one series with main character chessmasters both good and bad guys galore, Brent Weeks' Lightbringer series. The protagonists family is even named Guile. Sadly, that also means that the main chracters come with a good amount of anti-heroism, so only half a victory I am afraid, still far better than nothing. 1
king of nowhere Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I've observed a social expectation that if you're nice enough, you deserve to "get the girl". (Or guy. It can go both ways.) This only contributes to the objectification of other human beings. You do not earn your partner, (In the sense that I am discussing) you mutually accept one another. I hate that one too, because my parents have been triying to use that on me for years. that, and the concept of "good catch". the way they talked about it, they gave mme the impression that marriage in their time was a social contract where the man was looking for an household servant (skill in domestic chores made the woman a good catch) and the woman for an advance in social status (cause social success for a woman wa achieved by being married to someone immportant). That, and fear of being alone. Which also make me dislike all the tropes where you have to have a romantic interest in order to be happy. being convinced of that trope in my youth caused me a lot of anguish that could have easily been avoided. EDIT: #90 needs revision. It should say, "I will never, ever wear heels." Stop. Period. No actiony hero should ever wear heels. you don't always have action scenes. and sometimes you need to seduce someone rather than punch/stab/shoot (choose the appropriate one for the kind of world you are in) him. just don't fight in heels. maybe make sure that your feet are hard enough that you can kick off your shoes and run/fight barefoot if the unexpected happens. Edited July 18, 2015 by king of nowhere 2
Kaymyth she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 If I want to dress up an outfit, I'll wear some nice ballet flats…. ….or some cute boots. I haven't worn heels since my high school prom, and even then I stashed them in the coat closet and danced barefoot. If I ever get married, I will do it in flats or sandals. I wore knee-high Converse at my wedding. Seriously, it's like women's dress shoes are graded by how agonizing they are to wear. 2
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 On the top of my head I can think of one series with main character chessmasters both good and bad guys galore, Brent Weeks' Lightbringer series. The protagonists family is even named Guile. Sadly, that also means that the main chracters come with a good amount of anti-heroism, so only half a victory I am afraid, still far better than nothing. I haven't read those, but with how often they're mentioned here, I'm thinking I'll have a new series to read once I've finished devouring everything Sanderson. I hate that one too, because my parents have been triying to use that on me for years. that, and the concept of "good catch". the way they talked about it, they gave mme the impression that marriage in their time was a social contract where the man was looking for an household servant (skill in domestic chores made the woman a good catch) and the woman for an advance in social status (cause social success for a woman wa achieved by being married to someone immportant). That, and fear of being alone. Which also make me dislike all the tropes where you have to have a romantic interest in order to be happy. being convinced of that trope in my youth caused me a lot of anguish that could have easily been avoided. I was one of those "good catch" girls—the one who enjoys cooking, doesn't like cleaning but does it anyway, isn't confrontational by nature, and is cute. I know everyone who told me that was trying to compliment me, but it just left me feeling like I must be doing something wrong because no guy seemed interested in dating me. (All of the "helpful tips" my parents gave me—"Put yourself out there! Don't be so shy! Hide your love of geeky things because guys find that weird!" didn't help, either.) Romance can be done well, but I love books where it's treated as a fun side plot, not as a requirement. I wore knee-high Converse at my wedding. Seriously, it's like women's dress shoes are graded by how agonizing they are to wear. If that's the case, all of my dress shoes get an F for fabulous. 3
Edgedancer he/him Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I haven't read those, but with how often they're mentioned here, I'm thinking I'll have a new series to read once I've finished devouring everything Sanderson. I'd say they are very good, however instead of gushing about it I should give you a fair warning, the books have a fair amount of sexual and violent content. Edited July 18, 2015 by Edgedancer 1
Delightful Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 #90 needs revision. It should say, "I will never, ever wear heels." Stop. Period. No actiony hero should ever wear heels.Taylor Swifts Bad Blood music video. Not only are they wearing stilettos, but they're ridicukously skinny and ridiculous heels. Like girl, you ain't gonna fight in that. You're gonna spend so much effort trying to keep on your feet that you can't fight anyone. Also in AoS, May complains about heels - but she wears (albeit super chunky) heels herself.
Guest Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I wore knee-high Converse at my wedding. Seriously, it's like women's dress shoes are graded by how agonizing they are to wear. I LOVE heels Before I had kids, I used to stroll endlessly in mine and yes I thought they were comfortable... though not my weeding shoes. Those were absurdly painful even if cute I love boots.. with heels. I was one of those "good catch" girls—the one who enjoys cooking, doesn't like cleaning but does it anyway, isn't confrontational by nature, and is cute. I know everyone who told me that was trying to compliment me, but it just left me feeling like I must be doing something wrong because no guy seemed interested in dating me. (All of the "helpful tips" my parents gave me—"Put yourself out there! Don't be so shy! Hide your love of geeky things because guys find that weird!" didn't help, either.) Romance can be done well, but I love books where it's treated as a fun side plot, not as a requirement. Well, if it makes you feel better, I am a horrible catch I detest cleaning to the point where I'd rather go to the dentist than pick up the vacuum cleaner. I love cooking, now. Before, in my early twenties I was considered worthless in a household I am confrontational and argumentative by nature, I talk a lot (apparently, this is a bad thing in a woman ), I do not like most things related to women (except heels, I love heels, but I did not wear them until my mid-twenties so...), I did better than all the guys at school (apparently that too is a bad thing) and whereas I am not ugly, it took me 25 years to figure out how to place my hair in a comely way My own father made a talk at my wedding: he said how surprised he was I managed to land myself a man He thought I was too obstinate ad loud to ever interest a guy No guy have ever been interested in dating before my husband and that worthless idiot I dated for a while before. I have just asked my husband: "Why did you agree to date me in the first place?" Answer: "Well, you wanted to date me, so it was a start... and I thought you were cute". Yeah and I went to engineering school, so HELLO single guys which somehow did not help me land dates My husband, I had to fish for him. Long-term relationships don't often need much more than that to start: two people who actually want to date each other.
king of nowhere Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) I wore knee-high Converse at my wedding. Seriously, it's like women's dress shoes are graded by how agonizing they are to wear. if something makes me look pretty, then i like to wear it, even if it is uncomfortable. unfortunately, i have no capability to discern male beauty, so i have no idea what looks good on me. but if girls compliment me over a piece of clothing enough that i feel pretty wearing it, then I do, and don't care much about comfort. For that reason, I always try to compliment girls when I like how they're dressed, because feedback helps. And because of that, I will say that I really like heels in the 5-10 cm range. Bonus points if she's wearing them specifically for me, because I feel choosing to be uncomfortable to be prettier for me is incredibly nice, in a cute way; I'd do almost anything for a girl who did that just out of gratitude and cuteness. However, I would never insist that a girl wears heels for me. Ask, yes, but never more. Anyway, action girls wearing heels during combat make me shake my head. I'm looking at you, league of legends! I don't know the right word for what I feel when I see that. it's a mixture of "that's ridiculous" "that's sexist" "that's gratuitous fanservice" (I feel gratuitous fanservice is highly insulting, for the implications "you will buy this product because we show you some boobs" and "you're too stupid to see our trick" and "you're stuupid enough that yoou'll buy anything if we put boobs in it". Not to mention "we prefer to spend effort to put boobs in our product, rather than making it a bad product"). I was one of those "good catch" girls—the one who enjoys cooking, doesn't like cleaning but does it anyway, isn't confrontational by nature, and is cute. I know everyone who told me that was trying to compliment me, but it just left me feeling like I must be doing something wrong because no guy seemed interested in dating me. (All of the "helpful tips" my parents gave me—"Put yourself out there! Don't be so shy! Hide your love of geeky things because guys find that weird!" didn't help, either.) Romance can be done well, but I love books where it's treated as a fun side plot, not as a requirement. Oh, right, another romantic/social trope I hate: "you have to change yourself to be accepted". Hell, no. If you do, even if it works, you're on for a life on unhappyness doing stuff you never really liked to please people who don't have much in common with you. And that's another trope my parents tried to pass me. Took me a while to realize you must be yourself, find people who like you for it, and there's 7 billions people in the world so you don't need to please everyone. I also find particularly annoying the tropes related to girls and good catch, because most of those are traits I actually like. Especially the idea that men don't like smart girls, which I find rather offensive for men. As if we were stupid runts with an inferiority complex, needing a stupid girl to make us feel better. in fact, I realized I actually feel attracted by girls describing me the content of their PhD thesis. At lenght. Regardless of the actual subject. (EDIT: but especially for STEM fields, except for chemistry, because that's my job so it feels more like "you're meeting a coworker" than "an intelligent girl is sharing with you something she's passionate about") Edited July 18, 2015 by king of nowhere 1
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Oh, right, another romantic/social trope I hate: "you have to change yourself to be accepted". Hell, no. If you do, even if it works, you're on for a life on unhappyness doing stuff you never really liked to please people who don't have much in common with you. And that's another trope my parents tried to pass me. Took me a while to realize you must be yourself, find people who like you for it, and there's 7 billions people in the world so you don't need to please everyone. I also find particularly annoying the tropes related to girls and good catch, because most of those are traits I actually like. Especially the idea that men don't like smart girls, which I find rather offensive for men. As if we were stupid runts with an inferiority complex, needing a stupid girl to make us feel better. in fact, I realized I actually feel attracted by girls describing me the content of their PhD thesis. At lenght. Regardless of the actual subject. (EDIT: but especially for STEM fields, except for chemistry, because that's my job so it feels more like "you're meeting a coworker" than "an intelligent girl is sharing with you something she's passionate about") Once again, I'm reminded how much I adore Gravity Falls. You know that Aesop where the girl's friends help her change for a guy she likes, and it either works beautifully (glaring at you, Grease) or winds up teaching her that guys will accept her for who she is (so long as she isn't too strange)? I can think of one episode where a girl learns that being herself will attract a guy who likes her for who she is, and one where she learns that going to extremes to impress a guy attracts entirely the wrong type, and that it's better to just be yourself in the first place. But yes, I think this trope is one that's not so much a trope as a full-blown societal problem. I cannot tell you how many times my parents have told me to "tone down the love of fantasy" or "we love your quirks, but you should keep them hidden until the third or fourth date." They'd even expand it to friends: "You're a teenager. You and your friends should be talking about boys and celebrities, not mutants and magic elves." Whatever. If I meet someone who heads for the hills when I tell them about the different fem!Doctor outfits I've devised out of things in my closet, then we probably wouldn't have gotten along well anyway. 2
Quiver he/him Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Actually, on the presentation of women stuff... I dislike the fantasy trope that feminine, "girly" girls are weak, and being a strong female character means being a kick-chull fighter and being "one of the guys". (My example, of course, is Rarity, since MLP had an episode all about that moral). 3
Guest Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I dislike the fantasy trope that feminine, "girly" girls are weak, and being a strong female character means being a kick-chull fighter and being "one of the guys". (My example, of course, is Rarity, since MLP had an episode all about that moral). Oh yeah, I agree. A strong woman has to forsake everything typical of women simply to assert her strength. I hate it as well. You can be strong and feminine. You can kick chull and like to wear heels, just not at the same time (to echo King of Nowhere's post)
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Actually, on the presentation of women stuff... I dislike the fantasy trope that feminine, "girly" girls are weak, and being a strong female character means being a kick-chull fighter and being "one of the guys". (My example, of course, is Rarity, since MLP had an episode all about that moral). Oh yeah, I agree. A strong woman has to forsake everything typical of women simply to assert her strength. I hate it as well. You can be strong and feminine. You can kick chull and like to wear heels, just not at the same time (to echo King of Nowhere's post) And you can kick chull metaphorically while wearing heels, which is something a lot of fantasy and action-type authors seem to forget. I read one story that featured a strong female protagonist who didn't kick chull or take names—rather, she was a political leader who wielded an unprecedented level of power and used her knowledge of the system to wield it well. I loved her. I thought she was a much stronger female lead than the warrior women in that story. The warrior women could last a battle and kill you eight different ways, but the political leader could win battles without ever touching a weapon. She was tough, she was smart, and best of all, she was extremely and unapologetically girly. Naturally, she became a villain in the next book. Which, completely coincidentally, is when I vowed to never read anything by that author again.
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I haven't read those, but with how often they're mentioned here, I'm thinking I'll have a new series to read once I've finished devouring everything Sanderson. Brent Weeks = Up there with Brandon as one of my all time favourite authors. My bath went lukewarm i was so engrossed in his work I just hate clichés. The Sword of Shannara, (sorry Terry Brooks fans, but i have to say this) despite his being able to write well, this book just had me bored senseless. It took me weeks to read instead of a couple of days and had way too many cliché character archetypes, overall i just found it very bland. The young farmboy/great hero trope/old visitor who is really a powerful sorcerer of legend. felt a little like was i was reading LotR to begin with. I didn't both with the rest of the trilogy
king of nowhere Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) If I meet someone who heads for the hills when I tell them about the different fem!Doctor outfits I've devised out of things in my closet, then we probably wouldn't have gotten along well anyway. I have recently gained a t-shirt with "winner of the widelands tournament 2015" written on it, on account of winning a tournament of widelands (an open source videogame, that I'm blatantly trying to advertise with this post). the t-shirt also features some images from said videogame. I decided I have to wear it in the presence of any girl I find interesting. There's a good chance she won't speak to me afterwards, which will save a lot of time for both of us. And possibly I must find a way to mention that I have a shower curtain with the periodic table of the elements printed on it. And a poster of discworld over my bed (where a normal men would keep some naked woman). Edited July 19, 2015 by king of nowhere 2
Guest Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I have recently gained a t-shirt with "winner of the widelands tournament 2015" written on it, on account of winning a tournament of widelands (an open source videogame, that I'm blatantly trying to advertise with this post). the t-shirt also features some images from said videogame. I decided I have to wear it in the presence of any girl I find interesting. There's a good chance she won't speak to me afterwards, which will save a lot of time for both of us. And possibly I must find a way to mention that I have a shower curtain with the periodic table of the elements printed on it. And a poster of discworld over my bed (where a normal men would keep some naked woman). Oh gee which normal man? I know absolutely know no normal man who sleeps with a poster of naked women above their beds... Really. I bought my husband a t-shirt with the periodic table of elements on it: he loves it.
+Slowswift Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 What actually kind of cheeses me off is that dragons are almost universally evil. Like, no. I don't care what mythology says. Dragons are cool and anything that portrays dragons as 100% evil, no exceptions, will drop quality in my eyes, if only a little. I know it's a little thing, but dragons. 3
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 What actually kind of cheeses me off is that dragons are almost universally evil. Like, no. I don't care what mythology says. Dragons are cool and anything that portrays dragons as 100% evil, no exceptions, will drop quality in my eyes, if only a little. I know it's a little thing, but dragons. This...so much. That and when they're often portrayed as mindless beasts. So much ire is raised when that happens Why i loved Paolini's Alagaesia and Hobb's Raindwilds (not so much McCaffrey though) <3 2
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 This...so much. That and when they're often portrayed as mindless beasts. So much ire is raised when that happens Why i loved Paolini's Alagaesia and Hobb's Raindwilds (not so much McCaffrey though) <3 I liked Paolini's aversion of the Always Chaotic Evil trope, but I felt his dragons were too human in their attitudes and insights. I would've liked to see his dragons possess truly alien consciousnesses, yet remain sympathetic. 1
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I liked Paolini's aversion of the Always Chaotic Evil trope, but I felt his dragons were too human in their attitudes and insights. I would've liked to see his dragons possess truly alien consciousnesses, yet remain sympathetic. That's why I liked his portrayal of the ancient dragons, as well that ones that never bonded with a Rider. If anything, the bond might be what makes the dragons more humanlike (early incarnation of Cognitive shenanigans anyone?) x) 1
Ascendant Warrior he/him Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I just hate clichés. The Sword of Shannara, (sorry Terry Brooks fans, but i have to say this) despite his being able to write well, this book just had me bored senseless. It took me weeks to read instead of a couple of days and had way too many cliché character archetypes, overall i just found it very bland. The young farmboy/great hero trope/old visitor who is really a powerful sorcerer of legend. felt a little like was i was reading LotR to begin with. I didn't both with the rest of the trilogy I agree with you completely about the Sword of Shannara, but the rest of the trilogy is actually worth reading, in my opinion. And they're making a TV show (a la Game of Thrones) based on Elfstones of Shannara which is apparently looking to be very, very well done.
Delightful Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 And you can kick chull metaphorically while wearing heels, which is something a lot of fantasy and action-type authors seem to forget. I read one story that featured a strong female protagonist who didn't kick chull or take names—rather, she was a political leader who wielded an unprecedented level of power and used her knowledge of the system to wield it well. I loved her. I thought she was a much stronger female lead than the warrior women in that story. The warrior women could last a battle and kill you eight different ways, but the political leader could win battles without ever touching a weapon. She was tough, she was smart, and best of all, she was extremely and unapologetically girly. Naturally, she became a villain in the next book. Which, completely coincidentally, is when I vowed to never read anything by that author again. Do you remember what it's called? At least the first book sounds like it's worth reading.
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