Fantasy Pet Peeve Discussion Thread

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Do you remember what it's called? At least the first book sounds like it's worth reading.

 

The Books of Mortals trilogy, by Ted Dekker and Tosca Lee. But seriously, don't bother. The first book, Forbidden, was good enough that I was able to overlook the worldbuilding holes and some outright silliness, but then the flaws in the second book were so deep that they made the first book look even worse during the reread. (In case you're still curious, it's set in a far-future version of our world, where a virus has wiped out every human emotion except fear, but then the hero is given a vial of blood from the past and drinking it returns his other emotions. In the second book, blood apparently grants superpowers. Seriously, don't bother.) 

[Delightful]

Sounds like a creepier version of The Giver. ......I will take your advice.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Delightful

[Quiver he/him]

...guys. Guys.

Last night, I was trying to come up with an idea that I could write.

"I know," said I. "What if I tell a story from a dragons point of view! That might be fun!"

Last night. At around the same time you guys talked about Dragons.

Are we making a hive mind?

[Dunkum he/him]

there are about 8 or 9 things throughout this thread that I want to respond to, but let me just pick the one that is bothering me the most right now:

 

You know the one thing I hate in today's gritty fantasy? Humans are the worst people in any given room. Whether they are cutting down sacred trees, burning down holy groves, being racist, being the most warmongering species on the planet... I am getting sick of it.

 

Allow me to give a typical example from the Dragon Age games, which I otherwise love.

 

Human: Get out of here, knife-ear!

 

Poor Widdle Elf: So... hungry...

 

Human: How about I test my blood magic by sacrificing this starving little knife-ear to summon demons, turn into a possessed abomination, and go on a rampage to kill hundreds more elves?

 

I also cannot express how grateful I felt when I played The Witcher 2 earlier this month. I found an elf in the forest being attacked by a group of peasants, so naturally I made the assumption that the elf, by virtue of not being human, was in the right. I stepped in, killed half a village, at which point she led me into a trap and revealed that she had just robbed and murdered the other half of the village. I felt just so glad that humans were not the most evil things in the room...

 

I am getting sick and tired of racism towards humans in fantasy. It was a good idea at first, but now... Over-done. I mean, some of my friends are humans, and most of them are all right.

I'm kind of with you on this except for one thing: if you look at our history at all, you will notice that this si exactly the sort of thing that humans are doing all the time.  we go in, wreck up someone's temple/sacred tree/whatever without even thinking twice about it.  so humans coming in and being warmongerers is pretty much in keeping with everything we know about humanity.  that said, there is no particular reason to expect that other races wouldn't be just as bad most of the time.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Dunkum

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

there are about 8 or 9 things throughout this thread that I want to respond to, but let me just pick the one that is bothering me the most right now:

I'm kind of with you on this except for one thing: if you look at our history at all, you will notice that this si exactly the sort of thing that humans are doing all the time. we go in, wreck up someone's temple/sacred tree/whatever without even thinking twice about it. so humans coming in and being warmongerers is pretty much in keeping with everything we know about humanity. that said, there is no particular reason to expect that other races wouldn't be just as bad most of the time.

Yes, but it has been proven, time and again, that people live up to the expectations placed on them. I won't go so far as to say that the fantasy stories we read are turning us into monsters, but I do believe that if we consume stories that show humanity at its best, we'll want to be better than we have been. Part of what drew me to Doctor Who was the Doctor's optimism about humanity. He'd go giddy over humans, and it made me want to prove humans are worth that sort of reaction.

[Kaymyth she/her]

I was one of those "good catch" girls—the one who enjoys cooking, doesn't like cleaning but does it anyway, isn't confrontational by nature, and is cute. I know everyone who told me that was trying to compliment me, but it just left me feeling like I must be doing something wrong because no guy seemed interested in dating me. (All of the "helpful tips" my parents gave me—"Put yourself out there! Don't be so shy! Hide your love of geeky things because guys find that weird!" didn't help, either.) Romance can be done well, but I love books where it's treated as a fun side plot, not as a requirement. 

 

If that's the case, all of my dress shoes get an F for fabulous.

 

I think, once again, that your parents are full of ash.  Why would anyone want to marry someone who didn't appreciate all their oddball quirks?  I have a husband who is also a geek, and let me tell you, he deeply appreciates having a wife who would rather go see the latest sci-fi action adventure than a standard chick flick any day. 

 

 

I LOVE heels   Before I had kids, I used to stroll endlessly in mine and yes I thought they were comfortable... though not my weeding shoes. Those were absurdly painful even if cute 

 

I love boots.. with heels.

 

Part of my problem is that I inherited crappy joints.  I was never able to wear skinny heels at all; my ankles don't have the strength to hold my balance on such a tiny contact with the ground.  I'd take three steps, at best, and then fall over.  Even in clunky heels, my knees would start to ache something fierce after not much time at all.  It's gotten worse as I've gotten older, so I finally gave it all up as a bad idea and gave away all my heels.

 

But I'll tell you what, I rock a pair of combat Docs something fierce.

 

Actually, on the presentation of women stuff...

I dislike the fantasy trope that feminine, "girly" girls are weak, and being a strong female character means being a kick-chull fighter and being "one of the guys".

(My example, of course, is Rarity, since MLP had an episode all about that moral).

&

And you can kick chull metaphorically while wearing heels, which is something a lot of fantasy and action-type authors seem to forget. I read one story that featured a strong female protagonist who didn't kick chull or take names—rather, she was a political leader who wielded an unprecedented level of power and used her knowledge of the system to wield it well. I loved her. I thought she was a much stronger female lead than the warrior women in that story. The warrior women could last a battle and kill you eight different ways, but the political leader could win battles without ever touching a weapon. She was tough, she was smart, and best of all, she was extremely and unapologetically girly.

 

I'm working on striking the right balance with this in my main character in Swift as Steel.  Practically speaking, a double-steel Twinborn is really not going to want a lot of excess fabric flapping about her legs when she's trying to move a zillion mph, so trousers are going to be a lot more practical than dresses.  By the same token, though, she eschews mistcoats/cloaks because all those strips of fabric could turn pretty quickly into hazards when you're a speedster.

 

But Eva does have a girly side.  She keeps her hair long because it's pretty.  Sure, it'd be easier to bind up if there were less of it, but sacrifices, man.  And just because she doesn't have the excuse to wear dresses often doesn't mean she doesn't like them.  (And have you seen how much weaponry you can hide underneath a hoop skirt?  Fashion can be useful!)

[Quiver he/him]

Its not a trope I've seen in a while, but why are ancient, lost civilisations Better Than You?

My main point for that is Numenor, since "the Blood of Numenor" is such a Big Deal in LotR. It's even present in ASoIaF a little in the Targareyns (though I feel like that is maybe a deconstruction as much as anything else).

[king of nowhere]

I'm kind of with you on this except for one thing: if you look at our history at all, you will notice that this si exactly the sort of thing that humans are doing all the time.  we go in, wreck up someone's temple/sacred tree/whatever without even thinking twice about it.  so humans coming in and being warmongerers is pretty much in keeping with everything we know about humanity.  that said, there is no particular reason to expect that other races wouldn't be just as bad most of the time.

If you look at the hystory of the world, you see that social progress has gone hand-in-hand with technological progress: the civilizations that were more advanced technologically were also those with the most developed concepts of morals.

probably the two are related: if you live in a mud hut and famines and epidemics put your life expectation at less than 40 years, you don't mind much about killing the people in the next kingdom and taking their stuff, while  if your problem is that the unemployment rate is going over 10%, that's not enough to invade someone else over it. or maybe more technology is related to more instructions, and more instructed and cosmopolitan people are more likely to pose philosophical questions and wonder whether it is right to kill those guys and take their stuff just because they talk funny, or not.

 

Either way, it makes a lot of sense that a more advanced race would be also more moreally advanced. in that, the elves in dragonage are well justified: they had a superior civilization, while the humans were more backwards.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Don't forgt to factor in the longevity of non-human races. Elves and dragons can live for nearly millenia depending on the source (granted you could still live for centuries and still be backwards in society) You could argue the case either way to be fair. 

 

If anyone's read Gaiman's The Sandman, you'll remember a mortal character in one of the volumes who doesn't die, and it shows all the stages of life he goes through and they aren't all great. By the end of the story, he is, not so much wiser but less of a fool than he when he started out so it goes to show, with time humans could become something more than we are.

 

I disagree that, with technological (effectively intelligence) advancement comes moral advancement, although, as you said it does make a lot of sense and would be probably expected 

Edited July 19, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Guest]

Its not a trope I've seen in a while, but why are ancient, lost civilisations Better Than You?

My main point for that is Numenor, since "the Blood of Numenor" is such a Big Deal in LotR. It's even present in ASoIaF a little in the Targareyns (though I feel like that is maybe a deconstruction as much as anything else).

 

This annoyed me greatly about LoTR, how Boromir was described as being inferior because he did not inherit Numenor's blood and how Faramir was superior because he, at least, spend a bit of time in the library reading Elvish poems.

 

I have always dislike this part of LoTR.

[Kobold King he/him]

Its not a trope I've seen in a while, but why are ancient, lost civilisations Better Than You?

My main point for that is Numenor, since "the Blood of Numenor" is such a Big Deal in LotR. It's even present in ASoIaF a little in the Targareyns (though I feel like that is maybe a deconstruction as much as anything else).

 

 

If these ancient, lost civilizations were so great, then where are they now? 

 

 

More seriously, this annoys me too. It's similar to the kind of person who sits around on park benches berating teenagers for being "the generation that ruined America." They have an idea in their heads of a glorious golden age that existed long before, and any relics from that golden age--be it antiques, really old people, or casually racist attitudes--are held to be shining examples of what the crumby world today is lacking.

 

Humans have proven themselves incapable of creating a truly glorious age. Even times of prosperity tend to be powered by slave labor of some stripe or another, and more often than not golden ages merely look golden because their filth and corruption is hidden from the public view.

 

 

I'm kind of with you on this except for one thing: if you look at our history at all, you will notice that this si exactly the sort of thing that humans are doing all the time.  we go in, wreck up someone's temple/sacred tree/whatever without even thinking twice about it.  so humans coming in and being warmongerers is pretty much in keeping with everything we know about humanity.  that said, there is no particular reason to expect that other races wouldn't be just as bad most of the time.

 

I'm with you all the way. It does get annoying seeing humans treated as supervillains in every work of fiction under the sun, but I think it's very valuable for us to remember our failings.

 

I personally know people who defend the genocide of the Indians and the destruction of "primitive" societies. Fiction should ideally walk a fine line between acknowledging the corrupted parts of humanity, while still giving us an ideal to strive for.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Kobold, I never said they were inconsequential. Nor did I say they shouldn't be remembered. I was drawing a parallel between that woman and people who mishandle important topics like that.

If it's all the same to you, I'll just delete that post.

[Kobold King he/him]

Kobold, I never said they were inconsequential. Nor did I say they shouldn't be remembered. I was drawing a parallel between that woman and people who mishandle important topics like that.

If it's all the same to you, I'll just delete that post.

 

Sorry. It seems I misunderstood.

 

I've got to rush to the grocery store right now for dinner, but I've deleted my post as well. I'll PM you when I get back--hope I haven't made you mad.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Sorry. It seems I misunderstood.

I've got to rush to the grocery store right now for dinner, but I've deleted my post as well. I'll PM you when I get back--hope I haven't made you mad.

I'm not mad. It's okay.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Okay, so this is my problem.

I am a fan of the new marvel movies, where its all in the same universe and interconnected (kinda like Cosmere actually). So I think, maybe I'll like the comics too, who knows. My dad gets me a marvel encyclopedia from the library, that shows all the characters and there back stories. I look through it and EVERY SINGLE GIRL SUPER HERO IS PRACTICALLY NAKED. I mean seriously, no No NO NOO. I can understand having clothing kind of tight, so that it doesn't get in the way. But wearing a bikini or a suit so tight that she might as well be wearing nothing? It's portraying women in ways I am certainly NOT okay with. They're just there for eye candy at this point.

Its not a trope I've seen in a while, but why are ancient, lost civilisations Better Than You?

My main point for that is Numenor, since "the Blood of Numenor" is such a Big Deal in LotR. It's even present in ASoIaF a little in the Targareyns (though I feel like that is maybe a deconstruction as much as anything else).

Quiver, I don't think most ancient civilizations were that much better than today, but if you look around, you will see that standards are rapidly dropping. Edited July 20, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I do agree with you THS, but i just kinda shake my head/facepalm whenever that happens (don't get me started on New 52 Starfire's outfit)

 but my opinion on the matter is way too long/complicated to go into 

[Dunkum he/him]

This annoyed me greatly about LoTR, how Boromir was described as being inferior because he did not inherit Numenor's blood and how Faramir was superior because he, at least, spend a bit of time in the library reading Elvish poems.

 

I have always dislike this part of LoTR.

I want to quibble with the numenor example:

 

Numenoreans actually are physically longer lived than standard humans (Aragorn is in his 70s or 80s during LoTR, while Boromir was around 40, but physically they would have been similar).  That aside, I think the only advantages their civilization had were directly due to their close relationship with the elves, who predate mankind by some centuries.  their civilization fell becuase they pissed off the gods (the Valar).  all of which is to say that that isn't quite the best example of this trope.  Shannara and Wheel of Time both provide more interesting versions.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

The "Ancient Civilizations being better trope" probably evolved from a Garden of Eden/Atlantis mentality... the idea that at the beginning was Paradise until something tragedy (usually human-caused) happens to ruin everything for everyone. It's a backwards facing trope unlike the "Utopia" trope which assumes as time goes on, civilization will be better and improve.

 

Auden wrote an essay on this that I've read a part of but can not find...grrrr...

[Delightful]

The "Ancient Civilizations being better trope" probably evolved from a Garden of Eden/Atlantis mentality... the idea that at the beginning was Paradise until something tragedy (usually human-caused) happens to ruin everything for everyone. It's a backwards facing trope unlike the "Utopia" trope which assumes as time goes on, civilization will be better and improve.

Auden wrote an essay on this that I've read a part of but can not find...grrrr...

Atlantis might have been based on Minoan culture, preserved on the Greek island of Santorini after a volcano both destroyed and preserved the place......in the archaeological evidence, wall frescoes etc. There is absolutely no evidence of any kind of violence in their culture......it's pretty cool.

That was my random fact of the day.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Atlantis might have been based on Minoan culture, preserved on the Greek island of Santorini after a volcano both destroyed and preserved the place......in the archaeological evidence, wall frescoes etc. There is absolutely no evidence of any kind of violence in their culture......it's pretty cool.

That was my random fact of the day.

 

Outside of the Random Fact thread?!  What sort of black magic is this?!

[Kaymyth she/her]

Outside of the Random Fact thread?!  What sort of black magic is this?!

 

This just in:  randomness is random!  News at 11.

[Delightful]

Outside of the Random Fact thread?! What sort of black magic is this?!

The delightful kind.

*rubs hands together and cackles*

Edited July 20, 2015 by Delightful

[Kobold King he/him]

This just in:  randomness is random!  News at 11.

 

Or maybe 12. Or 6. Or 13. We haven't decided yet!

[ThirdGen]

The "Ancient Civilizations being better trope" probably evolved from a Garden of Eden/Atlantis mentality... the idea that at the beginning was Paradise until something tragedy (usually human-caused) happens to ruin everything for everyone. It's a backwards facing trope unlike the "Utopia" trope which assumes as time goes on, civilization will be better and improve.

 

Auden wrote an essay on this that I've read a part of but can not find...grrrr...

 

And at various times, as a backlash against modernity.  The Renaissance veneration of Greece and Rome, or the recent new age assumption that ancient = wise.

[Young Bard he/him]

When at the start of the series, the 'evil' side's basic infantry unit is made out to be much more big and scary than it actually is. Star Wars is the most commonly pointed out, with Stormtroopers that 'never miss', except for... every single time, but Trollocs (Wheel of Time), Orcs (LotR, Inheritance Cycle, bunch of other stuff), Goblins (Hobbit, LotR, bunch of other stuff) and loads of other creatures follow this pattern as well. While I understand that this is part of 'character development', showing that they have grown better than that creature, but it seems slightly unrealistic to have a major fight sequence with one Orc at the beginning, to then have an entire batallion attack the same character at the end of that book and prove only a mild inconvenience.