Long Game 104: The Flame of Tar Valon

[Steeldancer he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Don't forget every Ajah elects a Sitter and Sitters are immune to the NK and the exe unless Stilled. This means that 1/3 of the game starts out on N1 as being unkillable, depending on what TJ's response to my N0 comment is. It also means for each Ajah that elects a Black Ajah Sitter, we have to essentially exe them twice to get rid of them.

Oh they're immune to exe too? Missed that. Huh. 

This game is gonna be weird. 

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

Don't forget every Ajah elects a Sitter and Sitters are immune to the NK and the exe unless Stilled. This means that 1/3 of the game starts out on N1 as being unkillable, depending on what TJ's response to my N0 comment is. It also means for each Ajah that elects a Black Ajah Sitter, we have to essentially exe them twice to get rid of them.

That's actually a significant tempo issue, because we can't even directly control it: we have to engineer the votes to make sure that majority is not reached and that Black Ajah suspect has the least votes to get them Stilled and therefore exposed to the exe the next Day. That's a free kill at Night for the Black Ajah and is equivalent to dealing with a Thug, just more annoying than usual.

3 minutes ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

So here is what I think. It is more beneficial for the Eliminators to Mass-Claim. The Village is never going to be able to truly coordinate while the Eliminators are alive, but the Eliminators can and will. If they do not know who is in certain docs, even if I'm wrong about them specifically wanting Green members to die, then they will have a harder time removing specific abilities. If they do know those docs, then we lose nothing and gain nothing from Mass-Claiming. I am against Mass-Claiming. Thank you for asking that question Kas, I know understand this game a lot better.

Interesting you're taking it as mass-claiming Ajah colours. I deliberately left the point vague because I wanted to see how people would read into it too: it's possible to simply mass-claim who your doc mates are without stating what colour doc you are in. You can even just give your Ajah a completely random name, e.g. the Pancake Ajah.

Edited to add:

2 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Oh they're immune to exe too? Missed that. Huh. 

This game is gonna be weird. 

Bro, I have serious trauma from workshopping this one with TJ and Drake until it made sense  

[Terrisman]

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

How does everyone feel about an Ajah-mate massclaim? 4-5 Elims, maybe 6 tops depending on how TJ views the dynamic of this game (Sitters etc) seems likely to me; we probably have one or two uninfiltrated Ajahs, but the Black Ajah knows more than we do, so might as well close that gap

Why do think this would give us any advantage? 

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Kasimir said:

Interesting you're taking it as mass-claiming Ajah colours. I deliberately left the point vague because I wanted to see how people would read into it too: it's possible to simply mass-claim who your doc mates are without stating what colour doc you are in. You can even just give your Ajah a completely random name, e.g. the Pancake Ajah.

Oh, I misread that too. I... huh. I'd have to think about that more. I feel it has similar issues with what I already brought up, if you claim Ajah mates, the elims can kill one of them to very easily learn a chunk of the remaining distribution. Then again this is all assuming that they don't have a massive team. I hope they don't, for my own sanity. Especially with the equivalent of 6 thugs that would really make the game kind of slow.  

[Kasimir he/him]

4 minutes ago, Terrisman said:

Why do think this would give us any advantage? 

I do have my thoughts on this, but I want to wait for more people to show up before I tip my hand too aggressively. I did respond to Joe the way I did largely because I wanted to point out there are two levels of reveal here and I think it's worth assessing which people are also automatically thinking about: claiming your Ajah-mates versus claiming your Ajah colour.

To me, there's a good case for doing the former, but not the latter.

Edited to add:

3 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Oh, I misread that too. I... huh. I'd have to think about that more. I feel it has similar issues with what I already brought up, if you claim Ajah mates, the elims can kill one of them to very easily learn a chunk of the remaining distribution. Then again this is all assuming that they don't have a massive team. I hope they don't, for my own sanity. Especially with the equivalent of 6 thugs that would really make the game kind of slow.  

My bad, I misread a little too: I was working off the version of the rules where only alignment is revealed on flip. This is still true of the game as per the current version, but Sitters have their Ajah revealed, which is not an aspect of the rules I remembered, so claiming Ajah-mates is essentially an Ajah-full-claim, which makes things trickier.

Edited March 20, 2025 by Kasimir

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

9 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Oh, I misread that too. I... huh. I'd have to think about that more. I feel it has similar issues with what I already brought up, if you claim Ajah mates, the elims can kill one of them to very easily learn a chunk of the remaining distribution. Then again this is all assuming that they don't have a massive team. I hope they don't, for my own sanity. Especially with the equivalent of 6 thugs that would really make the game kind of slow.  

Ajahs aren't revealed upon death. They are revealed upon election to Sitter 

@Kasimir, which is the problem with teammate claiming. It becomes the exact same thing as Ajah claiming literally next turn.

I'm personally against claiming generally, I think there's nothing more infuriating than when you don't know something as an Elim. That detail, however, ruins the whole distinction. 

Edit: It occurs to me that this might be a very Kas thing to know, but omit to gage reactions, in which case, sorry Kas.

Edited March 20, 2025 by The Unknown Flame

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

@Kasimir, which is the problem with teammate claiming. It becomes the exact same thing as Ajah claiming literally next turn.

Thank you for saying what I just did in my post  

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

I'm personally against claiming generally, I think there's nothing more infuriating than when you don't know something as an Elim. That detail, however, ruins the whole distinction. 

I don't feel we caught any Elims making any slips whatsoever in LG84, nor did this happen convincingly in the LG84 rerun game I ran for M&M in December last year. (Similar structure - V/E, each player belonged to a Team, each Team had oneshot powers.) I don't really care about the Elims' mental state if this doesn't create an actual slip that can be capitalised on or caught.

Edited to add:

Deeper cut for Joe - this did not happen in LG7 either.

Edited March 20, 2025 by Kasimir

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

4 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Thank you for saying what I just did in my post  

You broke causality! Your edit wasn't there when I was writing my post. 

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

I don't really care about the Elims' mental state

How can you call yourself a villager without devoting your life to making elims suffer?

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, The Unknown Flame said:

How can you call yourself a villager without devoting your life to making elims suffer?

I've been told by numerous people that my mere existence as a Villager tends to do that to the Elims anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

I've been told by numerous people that my mere existence as a Villager tends to do that to the Elims anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hey, I may be fat but I do not count as numerous people >.>

[Kasimir he/him]

5 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

Hey, I may be fat but I do not count as numerous people >.>

Thought you wrestled? Also you speaking for TJ bhai now?

I guess I'll add part of my thoughts behind a massclaim is just that I think we're gonna end up there anyway - beyond selecting our Sitters, N0 is a way of doing what people always really hate about D1 - getting reactions, responses, and reads without even having to kill anyone. Given the material stakes for them, Ajahs with robust discussion will be better placed for D1. If we don't go into D1 using that to boost the usual D1 start, then what in tarnation are we actually doing?

Not saying be immediately reckless but again - roles and powers are not as important as showing up as a Villager and doing the basic Village work.

I promise I will really RP later, I just need to get more sleep. On further reflection maybe going in full throttle was not the best choice to avoid scaring the new people  

Edited to add:

Sorry, I'm tired. What I meant to say was, given the material stakes for them, Elims are gonna have to engage with the mechanic regardless, which means there's readable info there. So Ajahs with robust discussion will be better placed for D1.

Edited March 20, 2025 by Kasimir

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Just now, Kasimir said:

Thought you wrestled? 

Body dysmorphia and disordered eating do be like that.

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Also you speaking for TJ bhai now?

No I wouldn't dare please don't smite me from on high TJ I didn't mean it you are wise and powerful oh TJ 

[Terrisman]

5 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

On further reflection maybe going in full throttle was not the best choice to avoid scaring the new people

Only a bit scared

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Just now, Terrisman said:

Only a bit scared

Then you're doing better than most of us! 

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

Body dysmorphia and disordered eating do be like that.

RIP o7

1 minute ago, Terrisman said:

Only a bit scared

Sorry  Imma engage chill for the next couple hours while I try to survive the impromptu dance-off that has just happened outside the door.

[Terrisman]

So @Kasimir are you still suggesting that you would want us all to reveal our ajah mates? Or have you backed off of that?

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

For the new people that don't know:

Kas' chill mode is still in early phase beta testing, but usually it involves analyzing vote counts that don't exist yet, re-analyzing and altering his suspicions, twice, and crunching out more roleplay than most of us write in a week.

[xxGaea They/Them, Fae/Faer]

39 minutes ago, A Jo in the Bush said:

The hair all over Emmett's body stood up on end, but he didn't slow or react. Someone was watching him. Who? Why? Was it suspicious that he was stalking someone through the halls? Yes, certainly, but it was his job to be suspicious. He weighed his options. Continue following Jane Steel, or lay a trap for whomever was following him?

He walked around the corner, then pressed up against the wall and crouched, holding his breath. Jane was getting further away, but Emmett needed to know who was following him. He waited. Footsteps sounded around the corner. He tensed, and as soon as a person started to walk around the corner, Emmett laurched forward, grabbing them and pushing them against the wall.

"Why are you following me?" He hissed into their face.

Altea blinked at the man who had just pushed her against the wall, irritation making her neck flush red. Keeping her face impassive, save for a slight quirking of one eyebrow, she pushed a hand against his chest in a silent request to be released. "There is no logical reason for me to wish to follow you, sir. I do not appreciate being accused and accosted in my own residence."

She eyed him, her suspicion growing. "Is there some reason someone would wish to follow you?"

-----

My brain is too tired to really understand the conversation about reveals tbh--I feel like it would be better to not reveal though, since it's typically better for the elims to have access to less information. I'm not sure what use there is for village in revealing who are teammates and ajahs are?

I'll try and give more coherent thoughts tomorrow--I just wanted to force myself to do an rp post tonight, to try and get over the fear of it lol

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Terrisman said:

So @Kasimir are you still suggesting that you would want us all to reveal our ajah mates? Or have you backed off of that?

Honestly? If TJ says there is a N0 kill, then I'm dropping my reads in thread, one way or another, because that will be the best thing I can do at this point in the game. I don't intend to go for the Sitter role due to the Ajah-mate really wanting it, so this will give the Elims a free shot on me. Some of them are based on Ajah interactions. One way or another, that's essentially revealing my Ajah mates but I value the reads and good Village play more than I value the thought of whatever advantage we're supposed to get from Ajah abilities. This is where I am at. I cannot really argue against people who value Ajah abilities more, and I think it's fair to say we can maybe wait until N2 or say, when an Ajah has been overtargeted to make claims, but this has to be made by thinking of actual, concrete value to the Village, and not out of hypothetical "we could use the ability though!"

If no N0 kill, I'm holding fire for tonight. Minimally, Ajah Sitters should claim deaths. We're not going to be able to detect a lying Sitter once an Ajah has been cleaned out, but hopefully we'll at least get some info early on. 

Regardless of whether Ajah mates are or are not revealed, Ajah overtargeting should be an alarm bell because it either indicates Black Ajah attempts to use that Ajah's ability for themselves (though they could just as easily get their faction mates on board - not that hard in a three person doc), or that the doc is uninfiltrated, so the Ajah is being targeted with zero fear of exposure. Can't say which is more likely off the top of my head - depends on reads - but in a game with multiple group docs, where the kills happen is really important and as long as he's alive, I'm gonna need y'all to make sure @Ashbringer actually shows up with NKA and that his NKA makes sense.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

^This is the aforementioned chill mode btw 

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

^This is the aforementioned chill mode btw 

I've just come off a recent Elim game and I've missed the chance to be able to cut loose, cut me some slack damnit >> 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Greetings and I'm proud to announce I'm part of the best Ajah

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I won't be able to get back for the rest of this cycle because I have three meetings back-to-back so I'm going to vote for TJ

reasoning for the TJ vote was too long, didn't read, but it's in blue text ergo it must be trustworthy

TJ

Voting for your GM: It just makes sense

[Kasimir he/him]

30 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Greetings and I'm proud to announce I'm part of the best Ajah

reasoning for the TJ vote was too long, didn't read, but it's in blue text ergo it must be trustworthy

TJ

Voting for your GM: It just makes sense

Sir your banner broke

Drake: Never passing up a chance for a GMvot

I take it you're declaring for the Technicolour Ajah then

[|TJ| he/him]

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I won't be able to get back for the rest of this cycle because I have three meetings back-to-back so I'm going to vote for TJ

Pffft, death, taxes, and somehow getting voted on as a GM :P. 

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

@|TJ| Bhai, is N0 a zero-kill night? Seem to recall it is but unsure if that's something we discussed when building this ruleset or if I'm confusing this with the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon game I ran. Nothing particularly at stake here other than how obnoxious I want to be to the Elims >:P 

Yes, that's right. Black Ajah do not have a kill in N0. 

 

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, |TJ| said:

Pffft, death, taxes, and somehow getting voted on as a GM :P. 

What happened to death, taxes, and Cena the face bhai?