How do you feel about inter-species…

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

As much as I disagree with @christianrapper’s take on Renarin and Rlain, I think this an overstatement that veers uncomfortably close to being rude and conversation-ending. There’s nothing wrong with expressing an emotional reaction to part of the book, especially when the post started an interesting discussion thread. If you find it to be reductive, you don’t have to read or respond.

Additionally, I think the accusations of bigotry are unfair. Singers are not a marginalised ethnic group, they’re a fantasy alien species with an ape body plan. It’s reasonable to compare them to sapient apes (which humans also are). Sure, you can choose to read the Singers as a metaphor for human marginalised groups, but that is not the only valid interpretation.

Let’s keep this polite.

An emotional reaction to Renarin and Rlain's budding romance is something along the lines of, "I really don't like this for them. I don't think It's good for their characters because...I'm angry because I think their story would be better if..."

Stating truth isn't impolite. It can, and often is uncomfortable, but it would be impolite to ignore the truth. Especially when that truth is a lived experience of many members of this site.

Impolite would would be stating "That Rlain/Renarin relationship is disgusting to me" simply because you as a person "can't imagine kissing a [Singer/Listener] sapient shelled creature." Considering both Rlain and Renarin are representative of multiple marginalized groups, and thousands (if not many more people, myself included) of people see themselves in either or both of these characters, and then comparing Singers to apes (yes it's not the only interpretation, but the fact that many many many people who are marginalized in our society explicitly identify with Singers and or Renarin-which you need look no further than myriad posts on this site stating such to know it's the case) is wildly impolite. There is also the fact that in-world, Singers were made to be less than slaves for the last several thousand years by humans. How is that not a marginalized ethnic group? If they're not marginalized to Rosharans, then what in the Cosmere are they? Why else would Brandon spend 5 books showing the struggle it was for a small group of people (Bridge 4) to come to fully accept Rlain in an equal and equitable way (much less the rest of the humans in Urithiru), if he had not been-and continues to be-a marginalized person because of his race? You are correct that they are a fantasy species, and they are both metaphorically (for marginalized groups on earth) representative of humanity, and literally representative of a marginalized and previously enslaved group of people on Roshar.
Impolite would be saying, "Let’s not get into the same sex thing." As if for the queer/non-straight folks who are a part of this site, and the Sanderson fandom at large, have something wrong with them, but "lets not get into it," which for anyone reading this post who is in a same-sex relationship has just been summarily dismissed from the discussion, or at the very least, not made welcome to be part of it because "let's not get into it."
Impolite, would be to ignore all of these things, and excuse them as simply an emotion reaction divorced of any meaning or connection to outside thoughts, instead of the prejudice that it clearly is, whether that is intentional or accidental. Because either way, this thread has caused some folks harm who have read it, and that should be addressed clearly and not brushed aside. Because brushing that aside is part of what marginalizes people right here, right now.

Bigotry does not have to be conscious or purposeful to be bigotry. It stands on its own regardless.  This thread, in part,  has not been polite, inclusive, or welcoming to anyone who does not agree with the OP and their feelings of disgust about inter-species dating, and completely disregards the feelings of the people who have long looked forward to Rlain and Renarin getting together, and instead expresses how disgusting that is. And for the record, going from expressing one's disgust of a relationship you don't like to "Imagine kissing apes" to "'love is love' doesn't apply to dating outside your species" to "think of the diseases" is basically a microcosm of bigoted arguments that have been made against inter-racial dating/marriage in America for the better part of the last 200 years. Intentional or accidental, the problems with these arguments remain. They've been made before in history, repeatedly and often, and whether you are explicitly aware of them or not when you repeat those arguments, they are no less problematic for having made them. I don't only find these things reductive, but inherently harmful, and that's why I needed to say something about it, and why I won't shy away from this.

Calling out and explaining the problems with opinions such as these, shouldn't be conversation-ending. Also the discomfort, hurt, or pain of folks reading this thread (as these hurtful statement have been directed at them, in what I believe to be an unintentional way) shouldn't be ignored under the banner of "it's unfair to say they meant that/lets be polite." It's not polite to ignore the lived experiences of other people.
Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone is missing knowledge in some area(s). Everyone can put forward an argument without realizing the inadvertent damage that it causes. Everyone is capable of change when they are made aware of the harm they've done/are doing. That is an opportunity to continue conversation and learn and grow. That's a path that fosters more and more conversation to learn more about others and yourself. It likewise is also an opportunity to disregard the harm and pain caused to others by previously expressed thoughts/opinions, and to double down on them instead. If that's the path someone chooses to take, then that would indeed be conversation-ending.

Edited January 17, 2025 by JohnnyKaizen

[christianrapper]

3 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

My problem is the centuries long comparisons of minority people to monkeys and apes. It's a very well documented racist trope. Listeners and Singers aren't sapient animals. Their physiological forms are different from humans, but they are genetically compatible to mate with humans, as we have whole nations of humans with Singer ancestry. They are people. 

Would I have a relationship with a Neanderthal? As long as the previous conditions stated, were met? Yeah, why would that be a problem? And to take this nonsense argument to it's conclusion, would I date one of the apes from Planet of the Apes? Again, yes. Why would that be an issue, and why would you go so far as to state your blatant disgust at a very relatable part of this series, as well as what others have told you, they are comfortable with?

Whether intentional or unintentional, your example was bigoted on its face. It also wasn't helped by your entirely unnecessary commentary of how the romance between humans and singers, "made your skin crawled", indicating how disgusted you are at the thought of inter-species romance. You have no valid point here, other than you don't like the concept, you're disgusted by it, and you're apparently bothered that others have more imagination and openness than you do. You do you, but don't pretend that you've made some grand point. Your point is simple, subjective, reductive, and unnecessary. 

Your comment is hilarious and ironic and you can’t even understand why. You are proving my point exactly. Comparing real life racism to inter-species dating of a fake race isn’t the same at all. Parshendi aren’t real. Inter- species dating isn’t real. If you imagine inter- species dating as real then there are a lot more things to consider then being in love. Neanderthals are extinct. You see a problem with comparing dating a Parshendi with a sapient ape because apes are real and something that you have actually seen. If apes were sapient then they would be as smart as humans. They would not be like apes in the zoo. The only difference between a sapient ape and a listener is that the Parshendi are covered with shells and apes are hairy. Heck, the only difference between a sapient ape and a human would be that apes are hairy. The physical parts of apes of a certain size and humans match up. If being physically attracted to a sapient ape makes your skin crawl then you do understand what I mean. You’re just arguing to be arguing. Sapient apes aren’t real and neither are Parshendi. You just see apes as animals and can’t imagine then being sapient. It’s easy to imagine being physical with a species that’s made up. Actually imagining being physical with a different species that’s real is a different matter entirely. I bet you’re still thinking that apes are animals. Remember in this scenario they’re as sapient as humans. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

8 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

Your comment is hilarious and ironic and you can’t even understand why. You are proving my point exactly. Comparing real life racism to inter-species dating of a fake race isn’t the same at all. Parshendi aren’t real. Inter- species dating isn’t real. If you imagine inter- species dating as real then there are a lot more things to consider then being in love. Neanderthals are extinct. You see a problem with comparing dating a Parshendi with a sapient ape because apes are real and something that you have actually seen. If apes were sapient then they would be as smart as humans. They would not be like apes in the zoo. The only difference between a sapient ape and a listener is that the Parshendi are covered with shells and apes are hairy. Heck, the only difference between a sapient ape and a human would be that apes are hairy. The physical parts of apes of a certain size and humans match up. If being physically attracted to a sapient ape makes your skin crawl then you do understand what I mean. You’re just arguing to be arguing. Sapient apes aren’t real and neither are Parshendi. You just see apes as animals and can’t imagine then being sapient. It’s easy to imagine being physical with a species that’s made up. Actually imagining being physical with a different species that’s real is a different matter entirely. I bet you’re still thinking that apes are animals. Remember in this scenario they’re as sapient as humans. 

So you've chosen doubling down. All right then. I have nothing further to discuss with you.

[cvamoca]

Perhaps what people don't like is the "Equal-Non equal" potential of a Singer/Human relationship? By that I mean- 5-7 years ago- "Parshmen" were slaves. Not 100 or 200 yrs ago- 7 yrs ago. That's still the present, not even the past. The Parchendi were barely seen as people by Rosharans, they were beasts of burden. They were bred like cattle. That's puts them firmly in the Non-equal camp, where they can't be seen as fully realized people, they were more of a commodity. (To humans on Roshar)

It also makes it very unusual for someone to want to have a relationship with the other- one holds all the power, one doesn't. Like a teacher having a relationship with their much younger student- which is the best example of Equal-Non Equal relationships that my tired brain can come up with. Is it right? No it isn't.  Turns out they have incredible abilities and cities and culture galore- but only because WE the audience can see it- the Rosharans don't see it that way.  Maybe they will, maybe they never will.

I'm in the love is love camp, iow- whatever turns your crank, but they wouldn't be my type because I like dark haired men with mustaches.  In all my years I never dated a blond man- they didn't attract me, and women don't attract me...same deal.  But that's only my interests, if yours are different, "fill yer boots".

[Mattel]

I have not read much of this and quite frankly I don't plan on reading everything, but it seems to me like this is a controversial topic that has had a lot of action (we are on page 5 now) and it seems to me based off of what I have seen that this is a source of much anger and frustration and a much too easy source for arguing, not debating. 

So perhaps this conversation should be locked down or just dropped in general?

[christianrapper]

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

As much as I disagree with @christianrapper’s take on Renarin and Rlain, I think this an overstatement that veers uncomfortably close to being rude and conversation-ending. There’s nothing wrong with expressing an emotional reaction to part of the book, especially when the post started an interesting discussion thread. If you find it to be reductive, you don’t have to read or respond.

Additionally, I think the accusations of bigotry are unfair. Singers are not a marginalised ethnic group, they’re a fantasy alien species with an ape body plan. It’s reasonable to compare them to sapient apes (which humans also are). Sure, you can choose to read the Singers as a metaphor for human marginalised groups, but that is not the only valid interpretation.

Let’s keep this polite.

 

44 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

An emotional reaction to Renarin and Rlain's budding romance is something along the lines of, "I really don't like this for them. I don't think It's good for their characters because...I'm angry because I think their story would be better if..."

Stating truth isn't impolite. It can, and often is uncomfortable, but it would be impolite to ignore the truth. Especially when that truth is a lived experience of many members of this site.

Impolite would would be stating "That Rlain/Renarin relationship is disgusting to me" simply because you as a person "can't imagine kissing a [Singer/Listener] sapient shelled creature." Considering both Rlain and Renarin are representative of multiple marginalized groups, and thousands (if not many more people, myself included) of people see themselves in either or both of these characters, and then comparing Singers to apes (yes it's not the only interpretation, but the fact that many many many people who are marginalized in our society explicitly identify with Singers and or Renarin-which you need look no further than myriad posts on this site stating such to know it's the case) is wildly impolite. There is also the fact that in-world, Singers were made to be less than slaves for the last several thousand years by humans. How is that not a marginalized ethnic group? If they're not marginalized to Rosharans, then what in the Cosmere are they? Why else would Brandon spend 5 books showing the struggle it was for a small group of people (Bridge 4) to come to fully accept Rlain in an equal and equitable way (much less the rest of the humans in Urithiru), if he had not been-and continues to be-a marginalized person because of his race? You are correct that they are a fantasy species, and they are both metaphorically (for marginalized groups on earth) representative of humanity, and literally representative of a marginalized and previously enslaved group of people on Roshar.
Impolite would be saying, "Let’s not get into the same sex thing." As if for the queer/non-straight folks who are a part of this site, and the Sanderson fandom at large, have something wrong with them, but "lets not get into it," which for anyone reading this post who is in a same-sex relationship has just been summarily dismissed from the discussion, or at the very least, not made welcome to be part of it because "let's not get into it."
Impolite, would be to ignore all of these things, and excuse them as simply an emotion reaction divorced of any meaning or connection to outside thoughts, instead of the prejudice that it clearly is, whether that is intentional or accidental. Because either way, this thread has caused some folks harm who have read it, and that should be addressed clearly and not brushed aside. Because brushing that aside is part of what marginalizes people right here, right now.

Bigotry does not have to be conscious or purposeful to be bigotry. It stands on its own regardless.  This thread, in part,  has not been polite, inclusive, or welcoming to anyone who does not agree with the OP and their feelings of disgust about inter-species dating, and completely disregards the feelings of the people who have long looked forward to Rlain and Renarin getting together, and instead expresses how disgusting that is. And for the record, going from expressing one's disgust of a relationship you don't like to "Imagine kissing apes" to "'love is love' doesn't apply to dating outside your species" to "think of the diseases" is basically a microcosm of bigoted arguments that have been made against inter-racial dating/marriage in America for the better part of the last 200 years. Intentional or accidental, the problems with these arguments remain. They've been made before in history, repeatedly and often, and whether you are explicitly aware of them or not when you repeat those arguments, they are no less problematic for having made them. I don't only find these things reductive, but inherently harmful, and that's why I needed to say something about it, and why I won't shy away from this.

Calling out and explaining the problems with opinions such as these, shouldn't be conversation-ending. Also the discomfort, hurt, or pain of folks reading this thread (as these hurtful statement have been directed at them, in what I believe to be an unintentional way) shouldn't be ignored under the banner of "it's unfair to say they meant that/lets be polite." It's not polite to ignore the lived experiences of other people.
Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone is missing knowledge in some area(s). Everyone can put forward an argument without realizing the inadvertent damage that it causes. Everyone is capable of change when they are made aware of the harm they've done/are doing. That is an opportunity to continue conversation and learn and grow. That's a path that fosters more and more conversation to learn more about others and yourself. It likewise is also an opportunity to disregard the harm and pain caused to others by previously expressed thoughts/opinions, and to double down on them instead. If that's the path someone chooses to take, then that would indeed be conversation-ending.

There is a reason that I said “let’s not get into the same sex thing.” That’s not impolite at all. You ASSUMED that you knew what I meant and you’re wrong. This thread would have been full of actual veiled racism hidden behind words such as “woke” or “pandering.”  It would also have been filled with actual racist remarks. I have already seen it in threads already. This  thread would have been locked. This is a fantasy forum for discussing the fantasy topics of the Cosmere. If you want to discuss the gay aspect of Rlain and Rennarin’s then please feel free to make your own topic. Your thread will be locked in minutes. 

[cvamoca]

4 minutes ago, Mattel said:

I have not read much of this and quite frankly I don't plan on reading everything, but it seems to me like this is a controversial topic that has had a lot of action (we are on page 5 now) and it seems to me based off of what I have seen that this is a source of much anger and frustration and a much too easy source for arguing, not debating. 

So perhaps this conversation should be locked down or just dropped in general?

I'm trying to make points that I think are germane, while not being argumentative.

[RedBlue]

16 minutes ago, Mattel said:

I have not read much of this and quite frankly I don't plan on reading everything, but it seems to me like this is a controversial topic that has had a lot of action (we are on page 5 now) and it seems to me based off of what I have seen that this is a source of much anger and frustration and a much too easy source for arguing, not debating. 

So perhaps this conversation should be locked down or just dropped in general?

There are definitely some heated posts and indelicately stated points of view here, but we’ve also had an interesting discussion about portrayals of romance in sci-fi and fantasy, what our comfort levels are and why, things like that. I have enjoyed reading people’s various takes.

Let’s not start locking down threads every time they brush past a sensitive topic, or every time someone gets offended. I understand the need for moderation and I appreciate it, but I worry that overly heavy-handed lockdowns will have a chilling effect on discussions.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

14 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

 

There is a reason that I said “let’s not get into the same sex thing.” That’s not impolite at all. You ASSUMED that you knew what I meant and you’re wrong. This thread would have been full of actual veiled racism hidden behind words such as “woke” or “pandering.”  It would also have been filled with actual racist remarks. I have already seen it in threads already. This  thread would have been locked. This is a fantasy forum for discussing the fantasy topics of the Cosmere. If you want to discuss the gay aspect of Rlain and Rennarin’s then please feel free to make your own topic. Your thread will be locked in minutes. 

What is "the same sex thing"? What is there, "to get into"? I don't understand that at all.

You wrote that Rlain and Renarin's relationship "made your skin crawl" because you "just can't imagine it." You are 100% correct that I made an assumption based on that, as I assume many would.

I have no desire nor need to "discuss the gay aspect of Rlain and Renarin's" relationship. As any Inkspren would tell you, "It is."

What in the world would there be to discuss?

I see no reason why any thread I'd compose would be locked in minutes (or ever, really), unless others decided to violate the rules of this site, because I have no intention of doing so.

You've chosen your words very carefully, and you've ignored the words of others (coincidentally while quoting them, which is somewhat amusing, but not the most helpful). You've made it very clear to everyone reading this thread exactly how you feel, and how you want to present yourself as a person in this forum. I would hope that I have as well, and if not, I welcome anyone to a conversation.

Maybe one day, you'll be able to imagine something as simple as having romantic feelings and/or feeling attraction for someone who is different from you. I think that would be great for you. Perhaps not though.

As I said above, you've chosen your path, and that means that ours have conversationally diverged. 

[Mattel]

10 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

There are definitely some heated posts and indelicately stated points of view here, but we’ve also had an interesting discussion about portrayals of romance in sci-fi and fantasy, what our comfort levels are and why, things like that. I have enjoyed reading people’s various takes.

Let’s not start locking down threads every time they brush past a sensitive topic, or every time someone gets offended. I understand the need for moderation and I appreciate it, but I worry that overly heavy-handed lockdowns will have a chilling effect on discussions.

This is true. Page five specifically seems to be having more heated statements than the others (I skimmed some of the other sections). I think that if someone has something new to say that does not require quoting something someone else said to prove why they are wrong, then those people should speak, but otherwise perhaps we should all take a break and return to normal life? Even with the best of intentions, certain things can come across poorly, and over text like this is a terrible medium for anything, really. We have no way of knowing what the other person wanted to actually communicate through tone and start putting our own inflections on someone else's words. I think this has caused some undue disagreements to flare up.

Yes, I think we probably shouldn't shut a thread down for being controversial and maybe not the most cordial, I just assumed that was the best way to get people to stop talking. How bout this, hmm? Just take a break for a bit?

[christianrapper]

49 minutes ago, Mattel said:

I have not read much of this and quite frankly I don't plan on reading everything, but it seems to me like this is a controversial topic that has had a lot of action (we are on page 5 now) and it seems to me based off of what I have seen that this is a source of much anger and frustration and a much too easy source for arguing, not debating. 

So perhaps this conversation should be locked down or just dropped in general?

You really think that discussing dating an imaginary species is controversial? Only a couple of people have taken it in a direction that it wasn’t intended. We can’t just lock discussions because two people got offended. This topic is literally about something that happened in the books.  Also, since you have not read much of it then how can you decide what the responses were based on?

27 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

What is "the same sex thing"? What is there, "to get into"? I don't understand that at all.

You wrote that Rlain and Renarin's relationship "made your skin crawl" because you "just can't imagine it." You are 100% correct that I made an assumption based on that, as I assume many would.

I have no desire nor need to "discuss the gay aspect of Rlain and Renarin's" relationship. As any Inkspren would tell you, "It is."

What in the world would there be to discuss?

I see no reason why any thread I'd compose would be locked in minutes (or ever, really), unless others decided to violate the rules of this site, because I have no intention of doing so.

You've chosen your words very carefully, and you've ignored the words of others (coincidentally while quoting them, which is somewhat amusing, but not the most helpful). You've made it very clear to everyone reading this thread exactly how you feel, and how you want to present yourself as a person in this forum. I would hope that I have as well, and if not, I welcome anyone to a conversation.

Maybe one day, you'll be able to imagine something as simple as having romantic feelings and/or feeling attraction for someone who is different from you. I think that would be great for you. Perhaps not though.

As I said above, you've chosen your path, and that means that ours have conversationally diverged. 

Out of all the posts on this thread, the only person that made that assumption was you. Almost everyone else actually read the post and understood what I meant. 

Edited January 17, 2025 by christianrapper

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

11 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

Out of all the posts on this thread, the only person that made that assumption was you. Almost everyone else actually read the post and understood what I meant. 

What assumption did I make?

[christianrapper]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

What assumption did I make?

I literally quoted you. Whatever assumption that you and you alone made. YOU are the one that said that you made an assumption. Reread your post to me or my reply with your quote in it. 

[AlmightyGir]

I just think if someone would get this bent out of shape over a work of fiction, I dread to think how they react to reality.

[Nitpicking]

On 1/15/2025 at 2:28 PM, cvamoca said:

So if Kaladin's now a Herald, does that make him a spren, too?

No, he's a Cognitive Shadow, like Vasher or a Shade.

On 1/16/2025 at 11:27 AM, JohnnyKaizen said:

This kind of take is amazing to me in a lot of ways. I would absolutely date a Singer/Listener. Comparing them to sapient ape's is problematic on it's face ...

As a former biology teacher posting here as "nitpicking" I must point out that everyone posting here is a sapient ape (assuming we're all H. sapiens). Our species falls into the great apes. We are closer relatives of chimps and bonobos than those species are to orangutans.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/12/2025 at 9:59 AM, RedBlue said:

Also, as Rlain explains in WaT, changing forms is not the same as changing personality. It’s the same base personality, but with different sides being emphasised. That sounds more like a mood shift than a personality change.

How Rlain will go about changing forms now that Highstorms aren’t a thing anymore is anyone’s guess, but we shouldn’t just assume the current situation will make romance untenable forever.

In Rlain's case specifically, it also doesn't really matter anymore (W&T 30):

Spoiler

Rlain had found his perfect form. Or rather, every form could be perfect for him now.

In the past, workform had been his favorite for its versatility. It also left his mind the clearest—the most him. But it didn’t have the height he’d come to appreciate in warform—nor the strength of arm or the armored carapace. He liked the way he looked in warform, and it felt the most like him on the outside. Unfortunately, it made him a little too … eager to fight and obey. He could counteract both of these emotions, as a form did not control you. But it did subtly change the way you thought.

It turned out that being Radiant let him counteract that even more fully. He held up his finger as an awespren—a floating blue ball—alighted on it. This one was invisible to the human farmers who were discussing his advice. Bonded to Tumi, he felt like himself inside regardless of form.

 

On 1/16/2025 at 11:40 AM, Hexagonal said:

We don't really know much about how listeners(or singers as a whole species) perceive romance and relationships. We know that mates usually stick together as a war pair, but is that due to a romantic reason or something else? I hope we get to see some singer citizens who are just living their life in SA6, it'd be cool to sort of show us how they do relationships as a precursor for Renarin and Rlain.

We haven't seen many listener couples, but we've seen several other singer couples outside mateform and they basically just adopt the standards of romance from wherever they grew up, so the listener differences seem more cultural than biological.

[AonEne he/him]

Hi all! Popping in with a few quick notes. 

First, while you're welcome to continue politely expressing your personal opinions on interspecies relationships, the level of similarity to humans or relatability of nonhuman species, and how various works compare to Wind and Truth in these areas, I'm letting you all know as a courtesy that christianrapper will be unable to respond to posts or engage in further discussion themself from here on out. 

11 hours ago, christianrapper said:

I have already seen it in threads already. This thread would have been locked. This is a fantasy forum for discussing the fantasy topics of the Cosmere. If you want to discuss the gay aspect of Rlain and Rennarin’s then please feel free to make your own topic. Your thread will be locked in minutes. 

I wanted to address this specifically as well. This is incorrect. Conversations about Renarin and Rlain being gay and how that affects their relationship and storylines are perfectly welcome here and would not be locked, as such a conversation would be relevant to the books. Gay people and gay relationships are not political. What WOULD be moderated is any homophobia that cropped up on such threads. We do not allow homophobia here [see our Code of Conduct]; if anyone happens to notice any, please report the posts so we can deal with it. 

While the staff team appreciates members trying to keep discussions from getting heated, you don't need to try and get people to stop the conversation. If you feel that things have escalated to a fight, please report it, and mods will decide how to handle it. Sometimes it may just be a couple individuals who need to be spoken to, sometimes the thread may need to be locked for a short time to calm down, sometimes a public post advising people to remember our Best Practices for Posting in Debates or Contentious Conversations can do the job. It will vary. But stepping away for a moment if you find yourself getting sharp or the temperature is overall rising can be very helpful! 

I think it would be best if we avoided the sapient ape comparison from here on out. 

Now, for my own part - personally I don't find "human" to be on a list of requirements that my own potential partners must meet. Of course we haven't discovered anything else capable of consenting in our own world, but were I on Roshar, I would have no problems dating a singer or a spren and so on. For many people, nonhuman bodies or singer bodies can even be considered a bonus, spikes and all. 

Even if humans weren't often attracted to all kinds of things, sexual attraction doesn't have to be a component in every romantic relationship, even between humans, and desire to reproduce definitely doesn't either. Successful relationships can even be had between people with different levels of attraction to each other. 

I'm sure a relationship between me and someone who isn't human would have discussion and negotiation and learning and compromise, maybe more than most relationships. But for me none of that's a dealbreaker. 

[cvamoca]

Oh dear...if anything I wrote was considered in bad taste or hurtful in ANY way, I do apologize. It was not meant to be hurtful to anyone.

I'd honestly never considered people having relationships with different species/life forms before, and I do find it interesting how open most folks are to that possibility. (I'm old, old like I got to see Star Trek when it was a brand new series as a kid. )

[Mattel]

At first I did have a problem with it because I too immediately jumped to the "sapient ape" thought process. But that is a poor analogy because it is a well established animal that doesn't compare properly to a singer. I realize now that I don't have any problem with inter-species relationships.

I do have one problem though. It feels a tad... sloppy? almost, how there has been I think zero mention of even the possibility of a Singer-Human relationship, and now in WaT there are two and they are both Pivotal and key moments of the story? That's what I don't like. 

So here's what I'm thinking Sanderson should have done: Rhythm of War. The singers have taken over Urithiru and are in control. While Navani is doing her mad scientist/insane asylum prisoner wall writing, Rushu gets paired with a male Singer to keep an eye on her (Due to my personal preference I would feel better about it being a male Singer, but I recognize that some people might prefer it be a female). Slowly during the Singer control of Urithiru these two develop an intimate bond. I feel like there is so much possibility to a future like this. Rushu has been in all five books and... hasn't done much? Like even Rysn has gotten more time on page than her. So this would present the opportunity to show more of her. But most importantly, it would lay the groundwork for the possibility of an inter-species relationship, instead of waiting till the fifth book to drop it on us (twice) without any warning. When the Singers eventually leave Urithiru, the Singer would elect to stay behind because of Rushu, and so the characters of the story would have to decide what to do about this "scandalous" relationship, and would present Brandon the opportunity to address the problems people have raised on here about inter-species relationships, instead of letting us all wonder and debate while we wait for the start of the next half.

I have similar feelings about Renarin and Rlain, because Sanderson has apparently always wanted to make Renarin be gay, but there has been zero, I repeat, zero seeds of that story arc. Like can anyone think of any? The closest thing I can make out is Renarin joining Bridge Four, a group of all men. But that's about all that I can think of.

(P.S. Thank you AonEne for stepping in)

[The Awakened Salad they/them]

2 hours ago, Mattel said:

I have similar feelings about Renarin and Rlain, because Sanderson has apparently always wanted to make Renarin be gay, but there has been zero, I repeat, zero seeds of that story arc. Like can anyone think of any? The closest thing I can make out is Renarin joining Bridge Four, a group of all men. But that's about all that I can think of.

In a story like this, there is no need to foreshadow a character’s sexuality, because being queer isn’t a story arc or plot point, it’s just part of who Renarin is. It’s easy to see characters as straight until proven otherwise, but on the flip side, do we have any evidence that Renarin has been into other genders? Characters are allowed to be queer without there being a “reason” or foreshadowing. 

[Nitpicking]

3 hours ago, Mattel said:

... While Navani is doing her mad scientist/insane asylum prisoner wall writing, Rushu gets paired with a male Singer to keep an eye on her (Due to my personal preference I would feel better about it being a male Singer, but I recognize that some people might prefer it be a female) ...

Just curious: did you pick up on the hints in WaT that Rushu is agender?

[Mattel]

2 hours ago, The Awakened Salad said:

In a story like this, there is no need to foreshadow a character’s sexuality, because being queer isn’t a story arc or plot point, it’s just part of who Renarin is. It’s easy to see characters as straight until proven otherwise, but on the flip side, do we have any evidence that Renarin has been into other genders? Characters are allowed to be queer without there being a “reason” or foreshadowing. 

This is a fair point. But him being gay I think took the entire 17th shard community by surprise, for some it was a good surprise and for others it was shocking. I simply wished that their had been some foreshadowing. Part of the reason I don't like Renarin being gay is simply the fact that it felt, even if Sanderson has been planning this the whole time, it felt like something thrown in randomly as he was in the process of writing the fifth book. 

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Just curious: did you pick up on the hints in WaT that Rushu is agender?

uhhhh..... I think I did and then I forgot. I just looked up her thing on the Coppermind and apparently she is in Dawnshard which happens to be a novella and I..... to my chagrin I haven't read either. She was simply a character that for the point I was making upon first glance seemed like a natural candidate for the story I suggested. But such a thing seems a tad "nitpicking" and not getting at what I was trying to say.

I was trying to communicate (and maybe I did a bad job and that's on me) that I wish Sanderson had begun the first seeds of exploring the possibility of inter-species relationships, before book five. As I just said, it also felt similarly to be something he just decided to throw into the fifth book as he was writing it, and did it twice. To me, it would have felt like a more cohesive and whole book series to have included these two things in previous books.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Mattel said:

But him being gay I think took the entire 17th shard community by surprise, for some it was a good surprise and for others it was shocking.

I'm curious about on which data you base this comment?

AFAIK, most people who have been on the 17th Shard for a while have expected Renarin's orientation at least since WoR (if you search, you'll find threads from 2014 discussing this, though the theories were more frequent and discussed 2015+). It was all-but-confirmed by RoW. WoB (see footnote):

Spoiler

Link Law

Who is Renarin's crush?

Brandon Sanderson

Should I answer this? How about this, it is not supposed to be... I'm not trying to be tricky. If you think it is someone hinted at by the book, that is who it is. I'm not pulling a fast one on you. Basically, I am letting the characters come to their own realizations as they move through the story. But I have liked how it has grown, and I am not planning to change it, and I am not playing to be tricky with you about this.

Adam Horne

And I think you were subtle enough and obvious enough, because many people in the chat have guessed. People are saying it.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, they're saying lots of things, I assume.

Adam Horne

They're not.

Brandon Sanderson

So Adam just undid my RAFO. I can't see the chat, but as Robert Jordan says, this should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer. I expected this one to be obvious; I'm not trying to trick you. But the characters have not reached the same conclusions that their emotions have, yet. Does that make sense?

This should come out in book five, so you shouldn't have to wait till the back five for anything to happen there.

Footnote: The person that everyone in chat guessed was Rlain.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Argenti he/him]

32 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I'm curious about on which data you base this comment?

AFAIK, most people who have been on the 17th Shard for a while have expected Renarin's orientation at least since WoR (if you search, you'll find threads from 2014 discussing this, though the theories were more frequent and discussed 2015+). It was all-but-confirmed by RoW. WoB (see footnote):

  Reveal hidden contents

Link Law

Who is Renarin's crush?

Brandon Sanderson

Should I answer this? How about this, it is not supposed to be... I'm not trying to be tricky. If you think it is someone hinted at by the book, that is who it is. I'm not pulling a fast one on you. Basically, I am letting the characters come to their own realizations as they move through the story. But I have liked how it has grown, and I am not planning to change it, and I am not playing to be tricky with you about this.

Adam Horne

And I think you were subtle enough and obvious enough, because many people in the chat have guessed. People are saying it.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, they're saying lots of things, I assume.

Adam Horne

They're not.

Brandon Sanderson

So Adam just undid my RAFO. I can't see the chat, but as Robert Jordan says, this should be intuitively obvious to the casual observer. I expected this one to be obvious; I'm not trying to trick you. But the characters have not reached the same conclusions that their emotions have, yet. Does that make sense?

This should come out in book five, so you shouldn't have to wait till the back five for anything to happen there.

Footnote: The person that everyone in chat guessed was Rlain.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

I was going to say this. He explicitly told us 4ish years ago, and it's been hinted at since oathbringer.

The genreal fan base might not have known it, but it would be incredibly inaccurate to pretend the Shard hasn't know how gay Renarin is for years.

[Nitpicking]

9 hours ago, Mattel said:

uhhhh..... I think I did and then I forgot. I just looked up her thing on the Coppermind and apparently she is in Dawnshard which happens to be a novella and I..... to my chagrin I haven't read either. She was simply a character that for the point I was making upon first glance seemed like a natural candidate for the story I suggested. But such a thing seems a tad "nitpicking" and not getting at what I was trying to say.

For once, I wasn't nitpicking. I'm wondering why you would be more comfortable with a genderless or ambiguously gendered person being with a male partner than female.

This wasn't just in Dawnshard. Why do you think Rushu was interrogating the Sibling about being neither male nor female in WaT?