How do you feel about inter-species…

[bdoble97]

32 minutes ago, Mattel said:

Oh dear. NO. NOOOOOO.

So A.) Syl lacks a physical body with enough tangibility to even... Blegh personally this train of thought gives me the "ick." They would have to be in Shadesmar. Also I think this would totally go against everything that Sanderson just started working on with Syl and Kaladin's relationship. Syl needs to learn how to live for herself and not for Kaladin. Them being in a relationship would defile that, I think. Also I feel like how their relationship right now is, is beautiful. I love a major writer including themes of: love does not need to be romantic. The Greeks had four words for it, romantic, platonic, duty, friendship, essentially. I know this won't matter to some people but the first time the word love shows up in the Bible is describing the relationship between father and son in Genesis. There is more to love than romance, and there is more to marriage than sex.

As I read the part of Kaladin and Syl dancing together, I simply felt happy. It was beautiful and so intimate without requiring romance. Sanderson hit on something amazing there. It was two characters who know each other on a very deep level dancing together and enjoying each others presence. 

Also I think it is literally impossible for them to have children, simply because of their natures. Syl is technically a force of nature/an ideology. Kaladin is physical and created. Technically because the only difference is their intelligence level, it's like saying what would a Rainspren and human's offspring look like? This is a question I don't think we are intended to ask, nor is it something with an actual plausible answer that we will be given in a book.

I don't have issues with inter-species relationships within literature, but this is a relationship that I personally think should not be allowed. This might upset people but it is me being honest: I think some relationships should not happen. Personally to me this is one that should not happen, that of Kaladin and Syl.

You have some great points. I have never read the Bible I'm not religious, but  I understand what you are saying about so a love a father has for a son I have 4 daughters and love them very much. Even if three of them are teenagers and bug the hell out of me at times haha. 

You saying there's more to love then romance I agree 100% and I also agree that there more to romance then sex I have been with my wife for 17 years and there is so so so much to our Love, having some one that you trust no matter what who you can tell your deepest darkest fares to.  Some one you can just cry to and laugh with. 

I am bad at writting things out with out Microsoft word ha so I apologize if this doesn't read well. (I am trying my best) 

Kaldin needs that in his life. But to me the most amazing thing about love can be the romantic part the way a person can make you feel, to know that you are the person that the one you love wants to be with is beyond amazing. It can be the greatest feeling in the world.

I was thinking what if Sul becomes the stormmother. The storm father was the avatar of "God" and he had a physical form right? So if Syl becomes the stormmother could that "level her up" so she could create a physical body. I do t think I am explaining myself well enough so hopefully you understand what I am trying to say.

[AlmightyGir]

2 hours ago, Mattel said:

As I read the part of Kaladin and Syl dancing together, I simply felt happy. It was beautiful and so intimate without requiring romance. Sanderson hit on something amazing there. It was two characters who know each other on a very deep level dancing together and enjoying each others presence. 

See... To me, this is romance, this is the essence of it. I think with some of your other points you've possibly conflated a few issues into one.

It's entirely possible for people to have a loving, romantic relationship without sexual involvement. Heck, Freddie Mercury was famously gay, but has said the love of his life was Mary Austen, to whom he left almost his entire estate, and considered her his common-law wife.

Humans are very complex. The nature of romance, love, attraction, and sex, is all very messy, dirty, chaotic, and wonderful. And I think it's important to remember that those things can exist in a fictional context, too.

[Treamayne]

On 2/13/2025 at 4:53 PM, Mattel said:

I don't have issues with inter-species relationships within literature, but this is a relationship that I personally think should not be allowed. This might upset people but it is me being honest: I think some relationships should not happen. Personally to me this is one that should not happen, that of Kaladin and Syl.

Concur. There can be love without Romance, and Kaladin's relationship with Syl can and should be Loving without requiring a Romantic bond.

On 2/13/2025 at 6:16 PM, bdoble97 said:

Kaladin needs that in his life. But to me the most amazing thing about love can be the romantic part the way a person can make you feel, to know that you are the person that the one you love wants to be with is beyond amazing. It can be the greatest feeling in the world.

On 2/13/2025 at 7:05 PM, AlmightyGir said:

Humans are very complex. The nature of romance, love, attraction, and sex, is all very messy, dirty, chaotic, and wonderful. And I think it's important to remember that those things can exist in a fictional context, too.

This makes me very sad. As an Aromantic myself, it hurts when people imply that we are somehow "missing out" or a failure for a lack of Romance in our lives. Lack of Romance can be wonderful too - if that is how a person is wired.

Just please remember that a lack of romance is only a problem if the person feels a need for it, but has not fulfilled that need. Not everybody needs romance in their life.

[bdoble97]

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Concur. There can be love without Romance, and Kaladin's relationship with Syl can and should be Loving without requiring a Romantic bond.

This makes me very sad. As an Aromantic myself, it hurts when people imply that we are somehow "missing out" or a failure for a lack of Romance in our lives. Lack of Romance can be wonderful too - if that is how a person is wired.

Just please remember that a lack of romance is only a problem if the person feels a need for it, but has not fulfilled that need. Not everybody needs romance in their life.

I should have thought about this. I have probably been looking at Kaladin as my self to much and thinking what I would need if I was in his shoes. That a great points t and makes me look t it in a totally different perspective thank you 

[AlmightyGir]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

This makes me very sad. As an Aromantic myself, it hurts when people imply that we are somehow "missing out" or a failure for a lack of Romance in our lives. Lack of Romance can be wonderful too - if that is how a person is wired.

Sorry if I made you feel that way. I actually consider that to be part of the wonder

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 2/14/2025 at 9:28 PM, Treamayne said:

Just please remember that a lack of romance is only a problem if the person feels a need for it, but has not fulfilled that need. Not everybody needs romance in their life.

Exactly.

And if you took romance out and left a ____________, that statement is not only still true, but pretty much the best way to read the Cosmere, and/or view the world around us.

Thanks for that, @Treamayne 

[bmcclure7]

On 2/13/2025 at 3:53 PM, Mattel said:

Oh dear. NO. NOOOOOO.

So A.) Syl lacks a physical body with enough tangibility to even... Blegh personally this train of thought gives me the "ick." They would have to be in Shadesmar. Also I think this would totally go against everything that Sanderson just started working on with Syl and Kaladin's relationship. Syl needs to learn how to live for herself and not for Kaladin. Them being in a relationship would defile that, I think. Also I feel like how their relationship right now is, is beautiful. I love a major writer including themes of: love does not need to be romantic. The Greeks had four words for it, romantic, platonic, duty, friendship, essentially. I know this won't matter to some people but the first time the word love shows up in the Bible is describing the relationship between father and son in Genesis. There is more to love than romance, and there is more to marriage than sex.

As I read the part of Kaladin and Syl dancing together, I simply felt happy. It was beautiful and so intimate without requiring romance. Sanderson hit on something amazing there. It was two characters who know each other on a very deep level dancing together and enjoying each others presence. 

Also I think it is literally impossible for them to have children, simply because of their natures. Syl is technically a force of nature/an ideology. Kaladin is physical and created. Technically because the only difference is their intelligence level, it's like saying what would a Rainspren and human's offspring look like? This is a question I don't think we are intended to ask, nor is it something with an actual plausible answer that we will be given in a book.

I don't have issues with inter-species relationships within literature, but this is a relationship that I personally think should not be allowed. This might upset people but it is me being honest: I think some relationships should not happen. Personally to me this is one that should not happen, that of Kaladin and Syl.

so many problems with this, I don’t know where to begin.

1. Spren can have physical bodies read oathbringer

2. Kal doesn’t have a physical body right now either so this should not be a barrier.

3. Did you and me read the same book? Everything about the relationship this book was pointing toward a romantic relationship. I mean, they literally were flirting half the time, including the part where she suddenly let him know that yes she indeed does have a vagina. 
 

4. No her whole arc this book was about going to live for not JUST Kal. If it really was about not living for kal at all. Then it would’ve ended with her parting ways with him as that would’ve been the only way to complete that arc.

5. Do you even think about what you’re saying because you seem to be implying that when two people become a couple that they have to only live for the other person that they are incapable of also living for themselves.

6. Yes the relationship is good now that doesn’t mean it can’t get better. There’s another five books. There’s only really One Direction for their relationship to evolve at this point.

7. Right love doesn’t have to be romantic. I don’t know why you think this is relevant at all.
 

8. I should note since you brought it up that those other forms of love were not between the opposite sex ancient cultures, such as the Jews, or the Greeks did not have platonic relationships With the opposite sex with the possible exception of their mother‘s sisters and other relatives. This isn’t really relevant, but you brought this up so I felt like I should clarify. 
 

9. Kal no longer a human he is a spren read Obringer.

10. There’s no reason to believe that a spren in physical form, cannot have children. 
 

11. There’s no reason to believe that Harold (who by definition are spren) cannot reproduce the same way spren do (I believe there is something like shaping power or something?)

 

[Mattel]

On 2/24/2025 at 11:38 PM, bmcclure7 said:

3. Did you and me read the same book? Everything about the relationship this book was pointing toward a romantic relationship. I mean, they literally were flirting half the time, including the part where she suddenly let him know that yes she indeed does have a vagina. 

Most of your message felt a tad rude so I won't respond to a lot of that "here's why you are wrong in 11 neat steps," but I did want to respond to this.

No, you and I did not read the same book. No one does. I believe Sanderson wrote about this in the afterword of one of his books. He talked about the beauty of how every single time someone new reads one of his books, they create a new story. It's exactly why when you read a book that is the first in the series, and then when you listen to audiobooks for the other books it feels jarring because the way the narrator does the voices is different than how you did it in your head. You and I read different books. The book I read had a beautiful relationship between two friends. The book you read, and this is an assumption I am making, seems to show a relationship between a male and a female, and that they will have a romantic relationship at some point.

If there is any point I can communicate and get across it is this: a guy and a girl can have a relationship and simply let it blossom into a beautiful friendship without it needing to get romantic. What I personally do not stand for is this: A guy and a girl spending time together will start a romantic relationship eventually. Whether or not you were saying, I don't know, but just to clarify that just seems... wrong and faulty to me.

On 2/24/2025 at 11:38 PM, bmcclure7 said:

6. Yes the relationship is good now that doesn’t mean it can’t get better. There’s another five books. There’s only really One Direction for their relationship to evolve at this point.

So, I first off don't like someone determining that someone else's beautiful relationship can and will "get better," as you put it, or that it needs to "point in one direction" which is a romantic relationship.

I have also strongly disliked people who meddle in other people's lives and matchmake and such. I think I developed it in school. I was occasionally on the receiving end and I hated it. I hated the nerve that a classmate felt they had to try and pull strings to make an agenda of theirs happen in my life that they had decided was best for me. 

So I would just like to make a request, and a challenge, that you would please examine the views that you have towards Kaladin and Syl, and whether or not you are potentially implanting what you want to happen upon two characters whose fate is held in the author's hands, and not your own. I recognize that this sounds like another person who took something simple and wrote an essay about it in the comments, but I think that even the little beliefs you have about books will also be present in your life, and I personally would not to show up in my other relationships thinking that those two are good friends and will start dating.

All that to say, you and I disagree, it seems, on this subject and I believe I am correct and you believe you are correct so I don't think too much continual discussion between us will amount to much.

[Roscoe Any Pronouns]

literally throwing myself in here how is this thread still ongoing

 

though to add anything yes I'd kiss a Singer

[Mattel]

Gender and sexuality is a hot-topic right now and a lot of people have feelings on it.

It is true that we might be reaching a point where we should simply say: "we disagree and not much will change. So let's talk about our thousands of cosmere theories....."

but yeah I think I might leave this forum alone from now on.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Roscoe said:

literally throwing myself in here how is this thread still ongoing

 

though to add anything yes I'd kiss a Singer

I mean, look at them any official pictures shows them quite hot I don’t know what these other people are going on about.

19 hours ago, Mattel said:

Most of your message felt a tad rude so I won't respond to a lot of that "here's why you are wrong in 11 neat steps," but I did want to respond to this.

No, you and I did not read the same book. No one does. I believe Sanderson wrote about this in the afterword of one of his books. He talked about the beauty of how every single time someone new reads one of his books, they create a new story. It's exactly why when you read a book that is the first in the series, and then when you listen to audiobooks for the other books it feels jarring because the way the narrator does the voices is different than how you did it in your head. You and I read different books. The book I read had a beautiful relationship between two friends. The book you read, and this is an assumption I am making, seems to show a relationship between a male and a female, and that they will have a romantic relationship at some point.

If there is any point I can communicate and get across it is this: a guy and a girl can have a relationship and simply let it blossom into a beautiful friendship without it needing to get romantic. What I personally do not stand for is this: A guy and a girl spending time together will start a romantic relationship eventually. Whether or not you were saying, I don't know, but just to clarify that just seems... wrong and faulty to me.

So, I first off don't like someone determining that someone else's beautiful relationship can and will "get better," as you put it, or that it needs to "point in one direction" which is a romantic relationship.

I have also strongly disliked people who meddle in other people's lives and matchmake and such. I think I developed it in school. I was occasionally on the receiving end and I hated it. I hated the nerve that a classmate felt they had to try and pull strings to make an agenda of theirs happen in my life that they had decided was best for me. 

So I would just like to make a request, and a challenge, that you would please examine the views that you have towards Kaladin and Syl, and whether or not you are potentially implanting what you want to happen upon two characters whose fate is held in the author's hands, and not your own. I recognize that this sounds like another person who took something simple and wrote an essay about it in the comments, but I think that even the little beliefs you have about books will also be present in your life, and I personally would not to show up in my other relationships thinking that those two are good friends and will start dating.

All that to say, you and I disagree, it seems, on this subject and I believe I am correct and you believe you are correct so I don't think too much continual discussion between us will amount to much.

 

If there is any point I can communicate and get across it is this: a guy and a girl can have a relationship and simply let it blossom into a beautiful friendship without it needing to get romantic
1. So what? and sometimes a beautiful friendship can become a beautiful romantic relationship. I don’t see your point. 
 

 

What I personally do not stand for is this: A guy and a girl spending time together will start a romantic relationship eventually. Whether or not you were saying, I don't know, but just to clarify that just seems... wrong and faulty to me.

2. no one is saying this you’re attacking strawmen.

I have also strongly disliked people who meddle in other people's lives and matchmake and such. I think I developed it in school. I was occasionally on the receiving end and I hated it. I hated the nerve that a classmate felt they had to try and pull strings to make an agenda of theirs happen in my life that they had decided was best for me. 

3. I would like to remind you that these characters are fictional. No one is meddling in their relationship because they do not exist.
 

So I would just like to make a request, and a challenge, that you would please examine the views that you have towards Kaladin and Syl, and whether or not you are potentially implanting what you want to happen upon two characters whose fate is held in the author's hands, and not your own
 

4. This was going to be my line. Any honest examination of their behavior this book will admit that the author does appear to be at least preparing to transition to a more romantic, romantic relationship. The only explanation I seem to find for why you can’t see that is because you are in planting your desire for their relationship, not to change onto the author.

 

Most of your message felt a tad rude so I won't respond to a lot of that "here's why you are wrong in 11 neat steps," but I did want to respond to this
 

5. How convenient for you

[AsherCrane]

35 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. This was going to be my line. Any honest examination of their behavior this book will admit that the author does appear to be at least preparing to transition to a more romantic, romantic relationship. The only explanation I seem to find for why you can’t see that is because you are in planting your desire for their relationship, not to change onto the author.

I think that what appears to be the case is really subjective here. When a friend of mine brought up Syl and Kaladin looking really romantic, I was honestly blindsided, because at no point was this what I read into their scenes. I was seeing two incredibly close people, sure, but nothing beyond that. To say that any honest examination must lead to the same conclusion you reached seems a bit presumptuous.

 

As far as the main top of the thread goes, I've never personally been a fan of it. It's hard to argue moral grounds on an issue that currently exist only hypothetically, and I'd hope that if other sapient species did exist, the universe would be creative enough not to make them sideways humans, but it's never really been my thing. Elves and dwarves may be one thing, since they are just humans with slight ear and lifespan tweaks. Singers have carapace, skin patterened in inhuman ways, and the ability to completely change their physical form every highstorm. It's a step too far for me.

Edited March 10, 2025 by AsherCrane

[AlmightyGir]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I mean, look at them any official pictures shows them quite hot I don’t know what these other people are going on about.

10/10, would learn some new Rhythms from any of them.

[king of nowhere]

interesting question to explore.

singers are definitely too inhumans for me to feel attracted by them. i'd be buddy-buddy with them, but without romantic inclinations, just like i'd be with other men.

 

then again, i do notice that my stance on what i consider feminine enough to be attractive can change. i used to dislike piercings because of the unnatural look, but i gradually came to associate them with a woman trying to look more attractive, now i like them. in a similar vein, if i were to hang around a femalen with a very feminine personality, it is possible the subconscious part of my brain that gets to decide what is attractive would eventually decide to consider her a woman. it would take some getting used to, but i can imagine getting there. at least for the one in the picture; a direform would probably be way too much.

someone like syl would be very easy to be attracted to, she looks like a girl and she's very girly; besides, the way she's easily excitable triggers my protective feelings, a lot. i don't care that she's incorporeal, it's probably too abstract as a concept for the aforementioned subconscious part of my brain.

a kandra like melaan, i can also easily see them as a woman, and the fact that she can change shape wouldn't put me off - though I would not want to get intimate with her when she's using a male body.

so, having thought about it, it all depends on whether i would perceive the "alien" as a woman.

[Lacra Maldita]

On 25/2/2025 at 2:38, bmcclure7 said:

Hay tantos problemas con esto que no sé por dónde empezar.

1. Los spren pueden tener cuerpos físicos. Lea el Juramento.

2. Kal tampoco tiene un cuerpo físico en este momento, por lo que esto no debería ser una barrera.

3. ¿Leíste tú y yo el mismo libro? Todo lo que se decía sobre la relación en este libro apuntaba a una relación romántica. Es decir, literalmente coqueteaban la mitad del tiempo, incluida la parte en la que ella de repente le hizo saber que sí, que tenía vagina. 
 

4. No, todo el arco de este libro se trataba de vivir no SOLO para Kal. Si realmente se tratara de no vivir para Kal en absoluto, entonces habría terminado con ella separándose de él, ya que esa habría sido la única forma de completar ese arco.

5. ¿Piensas siquiera en lo que estás diciendo porque parece que estás insinuando que cuando dos personas se convierten en pareja solo tienen que vivir para la otra persona y que son incapaces de vivir también para sí mismos?

6. Sí, la relación ahora es buena, pero eso no significa que no pueda mejorar. Faltan cinco libros más. En este punto, la relación solo puede evolucionar en una dirección.

7. El amor verdadero no tiene por qué ser romántico. No sé por qué crees que esto es relevante.
 

8. Debo señalar que, dado que lo mencionaste, esas otras formas de amor no se daban entre personas del sexo opuesto. Las culturas antiguas, como los judíos o los griegos, no tenían relaciones platónicas con personas del sexo opuesto, con la posible excepción de las hermanas de su madre y otros familiares. Esto no es realmente relevante, pero lo mencionaste, así que sentí que debía aclararlo. 
 

9. Kal ya no es un humano, es un spren (léase Obringer).

10. No hay razón para creer que un spren en forma física, no pueda tener hijos. 
 

11. No hay razón para creer que Harold (quienes por definición son spren) no puedan reproducirse de la misma manera que lo hacen los spren (creo que existe algo así como un poder de modelado o algo así).

 

The best answer in this thread. We need to normalize that if Kal and Syl decide on a romantic relationship, it won't "harm" or "contaminate" anything.

[Aeshdan he/him]

On 1/9/2025 at 2:47 PM, christianrapper said:

Full Cosmere spoilers: How do you guys feel about inter-species dating? This is NOT about gay relationships so please don’t comment about that. I am definitely not about to get into that. I don’t know how I feel about humans dating listeners. No, that’s not racist. Humans dating other sapient species isn’t relatable to anything in the real world. It’s not like you dating an Asian, black person, white person, or anyone else outside of whatever race you are. It would be like you dating a sapient ape. Now just imagine yourself dating a sapient ape for a quick second. You can’t tell me that didn’t make you feel sick. How would you feel about dating someone like a listener. I am not talking about you as some omniscient reader who knows everyone’s thoughts and feelings. I mean the you now with your current hangups and that can only go by the way that characters look. I am not going to lie. If preventing a godlike being from waging war on humanity depended on me dating a sapient ape or shelled being then you guys better prepare for war because that’s not happening. Heck, if preventing a war depended on me marrying a Thaylen, you guys might be in trouble. Imagine Wax. He was dating a shape shifter and didn’t even know it. Dating in the Cosmere could definitely be tricky. You can find yourself unknowingly dating a spren or something and not even know it.

Personally, I agree with you. I don't think I can imagine myself being sexually attracted to something as different from me as a singer. That being said, I don't think there is anything objectively immoral about such a relationship, and there are people who have far more bizzarre sexual tastes than that. If someone is sexually attracted to a member of another sapient species, and the attraction is reciprocated, I don't see any reason why such a relationship couldn't exist.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 3/10/2025 at 5:23 PM, AsherCrane said:

I think that what appears to be the case is really subjective here. When a friend of mine brought up Syl and Kaladin looking really romantic, I was honestly blindsided, because at no point was this what I read into their scenes. I was seeing two incredibly close people, sure, but nothing beyond that. To say that any honest examination must lead to the same conclusion you reached seems a bit presumptuous.

It's probably more obvious to people who have been more active in the fandom and on various forums over the past few years. The Syladin ship has been going around for a while and got especially prominent around RoW I think. There was a big debate about whether that type of ship would be ok or if there would be any issues about their mutual dependence on eachother for sapience/surge binding abilities, questions about Syl's mental age and whether it would be appropriate, etc. Pretty much all of the major (and I think valid) concerns over that relationship were addressed directly throughout wind and truth:

1. Kaladin POV explicitly stating that Syl had never appeared as a child, that she had always been an adult woman, just that she had been child-like at times with her curiousity as she was regaining her memories, adjusting to the physical realm, etc. (to me, this was one of the most blatant 'author responds directly to hot issue w/in fandom with canonized clarification' things I've ever seen)

2. Regular callouts on Kaladin noticing her physical appearance (particularly when she was full sized) that were not common during the earlier books (specifically noticing her chest moving while she mimics breathing)

3. More physical contact - resting heads, holding hands, extended eye contact

4. Emphasis on Syl being her own person and showing more of her own independence and maturity

5. Many conversations with Kal and Syl that end with a lingering silence or a cryptic/unclear comment that leaves a lot left unsaid, which is very reminiscent of the typical 'friends who are on the verge of becoming more than friends' trope: Syl saying she finally has a home and Kal asks if it's the tower and she says 'in a way' or something, Syl hesitating and making eye contact with him before taking his outstretched hand as they take flight, conversation where they talk about how perfect/imperfect eachother are and everything, etc.

6. The dance scene. I agree that without the context of all the other stuff going on throughout the book this scene could be viewed as fairly platonic, but given the points above, this scene kind of sealed it for me and (in my opinion) made it absolutely clear that their relationship was headed in a romantic direction

My suspicion is that Brandon either wanted to give a good foundation for it before really going all in on it later on in the back half or that he wanted to tease it in a way that gives him plausible deniability if the fanbase were to pick up on the signs and the reaction was overwhelmingly negative. So far, the reactions I've seen have primarily been either "yay, I was hoping that would happen" or "I didn't like it but I'm now convinced Brandon will be able to do it in a way that works".

Therefore, I do anticipate this relationship to continue moving in a romantic direction. And if it does not, I personally feel that all of the points above except for Syl's emphasis on developing independence and the dance scene should have been removed before publication. There's no other reason to include all of those bread crumbs, especially when many of them are clear responses to the major issues the fanbase has debated regarding this ship.

(As an aside, I don't think the fact that male/female non-romantic relationships being a real and valid thing have any bearing on whether Syl/Kal should be romantic with eachother. Brandon has been very clear that he tries to channel his characters and let them make their own decisions, so if he felt that it was heading that direction I would expect him to just let it happen. There is tons of time left in the Cosmere to have some great examples of relationships between men and women that are purely platonic but still close and intimate)

[Spotblur]

I'm so fascinated by the discussion here. People here debating how humanoid something needs to be to be date-able, meanwhile I'm enjoying Children of Time romance fanfic (I love Brandon Sanderson's books, but if you want to see really alien creatures that still have just enough humanity to be compatible communication-wise with us, I reccomend the Children of Time trilogy).

 

My rule is the Harkness Test, personally. If it passes and consents, hell yeah. If it doesn't pass or doesn't consent, hell no.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

35 minutes ago, Spotblur said:

I'm so fascinated by the discussion here. People here debating how humanoid something needs to be to be date-able, meanwhile I'm enjoying Children of Time romance fanfic (I love Brandon Sanderson's books, but if you want to see really alien creatures that still have just enough humanity to be compatible communication-wise with us, I reccomend the Children of Time trilogy).

 

My rule is the Harkness Test, personally. If it passes and consents, hell yeah. If it doesn't pass or doesn't consent, hell no.

I've somehow never heard of the Harkness Test before today (Fun fact, Cap'n Jack was named after Marvel character, Agatha Harkness, and I am confident that she uses the same rules lol) I love me some Cap'n Jack. I'd also love to see any sort of a crossover where Jack and Agatha run into each other because that would be hilarious.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

On 1/9/2025 at 1:47 PM, christianrapper said:

Full Cosmere spoilers: How do you guys feel about inter-species dating? This is NOT about gay relationships so please don’t comment about that. I am definitely not about to get into that. I don’t know how I feel about humans dating listeners. No, that’s not racist. Humans dating other sapient species isn’t relatable to anything in the real world. It’s not like you dating an Asian, black person, white person, or anyone else outside of whatever race you are. It would be like you dating a sapient ape. Now just imagine yourself dating a sapient ape for a quick second. You can’t tell me that didn’t make you feel sick. How would you feel about dating someone like a listener. I am not talking about you as some omniscient reader who knows everyone’s thoughts and feelings. I mean the you now with your current hangups and that can only go by the way that characters look. I am not going to lie. If preventing a godlike being from waging war on humanity depended on me dating a sapient ape or shelled being then you guys better prepare for war because that’s not happening. Heck, if preventing a war depended on me marrying a Thaylen, you guys might be in trouble. Imagine Wax. He was dating a shape shifter and didn’t even know it. Dating in the Cosmere could definitely be tricky. You can find yourself unknowingly dating a spren or something and not even know it.

I don't have an issue with it. Singers are just as developed as humans and we know there have been cross species relationships in the past, that's how we have Herdazians and the Horneaters. It's not like dating a sentient ape it's more like a human dating a Twi'lek 

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

On 3/10/2025 at 4:48 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 

Coming in on team "would" on this. The only real problem with most Singers as subjects of relationships is that they have only been properly sapient for two or so years in the story so far, so that is kinda weird. I guess really I am a "would" for like Leshwi and Raboniel, since they are both experienced enough in life and sane enough to not be too weird to be in a relationship with. Maybe El, if he isn't like Moash and impossible to have fun around.

 

Also, I am incidentally on the team of people who are against Syladin, but mostly because I want Syl off screen. I don't care about her being killed off or something, but I just don't like her character. Her primary motivation being helping Kaladin with his damage because he reminds her of a type of person she likes is so weird and offputting. It's like he's her child, except she's deeply immature.

I actually was briefly excited by the idea that Kaladin and Leshwi were going to turn out to have something like what it seems ended up being Garith's situation: It's kinda obvious that the best way to protect people is to make a just peace, and there's something classically beautiful about having deep personal feelings be the source of that. Their whole thing of going on sparring dates had such an appeal to me.

 

[bmcclure7]

On 3/18/2025 at 1:11 PM, Spotblur said:

I'm so fascinated by the discussion here. People here debating how humanoid something needs to be to be date-able, meanwhile I'm enjoying Children of Time romance fanfic (I love Brandon Sanderson's books, but if you want to see really alien creatures that still have just enough humanity to be compatible communication-wise with us, I reccomend the Children of Time trilogy).

 

My rule is the Harkness Test, personally. If it passes and consents, hell yeah. If it doesn't pass or doesn't consent, hell no.

Harkness Test?

[HSuperLee]

Huh. I've been avoiding commenting on this issue because I know everyone will hate my opinion, but if this discussion is still going on, I guess its important enough we should probably have it. Alright, here's my hot take, I generally don't like inter-species relationships in fiction because love alone is not a sufficient foundation upon which to build a relationship.

Okay, I know everyone is going to be upset after reading that, but hear me out, because I think you probably agree with me, you just don't know it. I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that its possible for a victim to genuinely love their abuser. If I had to give an example from fiction (because I'm not bringing real life into this) I'd reference Jane Eyre from the novel of the same title. She genuinely loves a man whom she believes she cannot be in a relationship with and leaves him because she believes that if she stayed he'd abuse her. Really, part of the reason she leaves is so that he won't cross that line and thus do more damage to himself by becoming an abuser. Its a neat book. Anyway, I don't think that point is especially contentious. What will be is my assertion that an abuser can genuinely love the person they abuse. The examples in fiction that I'll point to are Thanos with Gamora and Omniman with Invincible. Now, you can argue "that's not really love!" but from their perspective it is. Even if they fail to live up to the ideal of love, they still experience the emotional sensations that we call "being in love." That feeling, "being in love" is really what I'm talking about. I believe that is an insufficient foundation for a romantic relationship. Its probably a fine foundation to start a relationship on, but there must be another element to the foundation to build upon.

Like what? Well, look at the reasons people get married: Security, mutual health benefits, business (yes, I know modern culture doesn't like it but that is a reason), cultural continuity, reproduction, diplomacy, moral development, etc. There are many reasons to seek a romantic relationship outside of "being in love." My problem with many inter-species relationships in fiction is that they exist solely for the purpose of "being in love." The individuals like how they feel when they are around each other or act romantically towards each other, that is it. For any given relationship, you can ask what each person is getting out of the relationship beyond the feeling of being in love. If the answer is nothing, and the two provide security, health, cultural continuity, etc without needing to be in a romantic relationship, they I struggle to see the point of the romantic relationship. See, the problem is, with the exception of a very small number of individuals who seem to be able to make it work, being in a romantic relationship with someone means you will not be in a romantic relationship with anyone else, and thus the benefits that can come with a romantic relationship are cut off, not merely from you but also from your community. That's my final point: no man is an island. Your relationships matter not just to you but to the people around you. Your relationships impact the people around you and the people who come after you. Its all well and good to pretend that only two people matter in a relationship, but that's just not how reality works, even in books. I'm not saying that you need to get permission from anyone to start a relationship, but people should consider the implications of their relationships when evaluating whether or not they're worth starting. Renarin and Rlain definitely considered the diplomatic implications alongside the feelings they have for one another. Evidently they decided it was worth it. I'm not entirely convinced I agree. That's a debate I'm frankly not interested in.

If I had to simplify my issues with inter-species relationships as briefly as possible, I'd say that they usually bother me because they depict "being in love" as the be-all-end-all of a romantic relationship, and I do not agree. A relationship needs to be about more than just being "in love" to be good.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Harkness Test?

https://knowyourmeme.com/editorials/guides/what-is-the-harkness-test-and-when-should-you-use-it

Due to the taboos around sexual intimacy with non-sapient beings, science fiction fans have come up with some answers to "is it acceptable that those two characters are doing that?" for kissing stuff. It is named for a character from Doctor Who.

6 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

If I had to simplify my issues with inter-species relationships as briefly as possible, I'd say that they usually bother me because they depict "being in love" as the be-all-end-all of a romantic relationship, and I do not agree. A relationship needs to be about more than just being "in love" to be good

I think that is because, for a lot of people, fantasies of love are about those moments of intense feeling.  That and stories about people kissing with feeling have a kind of excitement to them that is not too different from the excitement of characters sword fighting.

[bmcclure7]

13 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Huh. I've been avoiding commenting on this issue because I know everyone will hate my opinion, but if this discussion is still going on, I guess its important enough we should probably have it. Alright, here's my hot take, I generally don't like inter-species relationships in fiction because love alone is not a sufficient foundation upon which to build a relationship.

Okay, I know everyone is going to be upset after reading that, but hear me out, because I think you probably agree with me, you just don't know it. I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that its possible for a victim to genuinely love their abuser. If I had to give an example from fiction (because I'm not bringing real life into this) I'd reference Jane Eyre from the novel of the same title. She genuinely loves a man whom she believes she cannot be in a relationship with and leaves him because she believes that if she stayed he'd abuse her. Really, part of the reason she leaves is so that he won't cross that line and thus do more damage to himself by becoming an abuser. Its a neat book. Anyway, I don't think that point is especially contentious. What will be is my assertion that an abuser can genuinely love the person they abuse. The examples in fiction that I'll point to are Thanos with Gamora and Omniman with Invincible. Now, you can argue "that's not really love!" but from their perspective it is. Even if they fail to live up to the ideal of love, they still experience the emotional sensations that we call "being in love." That feeling, "being in love" is really what I'm talking about. I believe that is an insufficient foundation for a romantic relationship. Its probably a fine foundation to start a relationship on, but there must be another element to the foundation to build upon.

Like what? Well, look at the reasons people get married: Security, mutual health benefits, business (yes, I know modern culture doesn't like it but that is a reason), cultural continuity, reproduction, diplomacy, moral development, etc. There are many reasons to seek a romantic relationship outside of "being in love." My problem with many inter-species relationships in fiction is that they exist solely for the purpose of "being in love." The individuals like how they feel when they are around each other or act romantically towards each other, that is it. For any given relationship, you can ask what each person is getting out of the relationship beyond the feeling of being in love. If the answer is nothing, and the two provide security, health, cultural continuity, etc without needing to be in a romantic relationship, they I struggle to see the point of the romantic relationship. See, the problem is, with the exception of a very small number of individuals who seem to be able to make it work, being in a romantic relationship with someone means you will not be in a romantic relationship with anyone else, and thus the benefits that can come with a romantic relationship are cut off, not merely from you but also from your community. That's my final point: no man is an island. Your relationships matter not just to you but to the people around you. Your relationships impact the people around you and the people who come after you. Its all well and good to pretend that only two people matter in a relationship, but that's just not how reality works, even in books. I'm not saying that you need to get permission from anyone to start a relationship, but people should consider the implications of their relationships when evaluating whether or not they're worth starting. Renarin and Rlain definitely considered the diplomatic implications alongside the feelings they have for one another. Evidently they decided it was worth it. I'm not entirely convinced I agree. That's a debate I'm frankly not interested in.

If I had to simplify my issues with inter-species relationships as briefly as possible, I'd say that they usually bother me because they depict "being in love" as the be-all-end-all of a romantic relationship, and I do not agree. A relationship needs to be about more than just being "in love" to be good.

I’m very interesting and insightful. I do have some thoughts.
1. It’s important here to distinguish between Eros love and Agape Love. 

2. “ A relationship needs to be about more than just being "in love" to be good” a very interesting point could you elaborate?

3. no man is an island. Your relationships matter not just to you but to the people around you. Your relationships impact the people around you and the people who come after you.
 

Very true and even more so for a society like the alethy where politics and family are often connected. 
 

4. being in love" as the be-all-end-all of a romantic relationship, and I do not agree. A relationship needs to be about more than just being "in love" to be good. 
 

Through there definitely can be other concerns other than just being in love. Well I can’t say this is the way for everyone been my experience. It’s definitely very easy to fall in love far from the last step. It’s really one of the first steps. 
 

 

5 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

https://knowyourmeme.com/editorials/guides/what-is-the-harkness-test-and-when-should-you-use-it

Due to the taboos around sexual intimacy with non-sapient beings, science fiction fans have come up with some answers to "is it acceptable that those two characters are doing that?" for kissing stuff. It is named for a character from Doctor Who.

I think that is because, for a lot of people, fantasies of love are about those moments of intense feeling.  That and stories about people kissing with feeling have a kind of excitement to them that is not too different from the excitement of characters sword fighting.

I can’t speak for everyone, but personally, I would add a few more points to that I’ve seem to be more picky than this particular character who created this test.

1. Doesn’t have a human face. (I can’t speak for everyone, but I’m not sleeping with something that doesn’t have lips or has a snout. 

2. Does it have human primary and secondary genitalia?

3. Is it reproductive? To the two of us reproduce together (an important thing to consider, especially if you’re considering a long-term relationship)