How do you feel about inter-species…

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, coolsnow7 said:

That said, I also found the human<>Direform romance in WaT deeply implausible. How is anyone human going to be physically attracted to a Direform? Did this guy do some epic Soothing+Rioting on himself so that he could convince himself to find a Direform beautiful? Whatever, not my problem.

Tall, Dark, Stronger than you.

Not a big leap. There's romance books about weirder things.

[coolsnow7]

6 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Tall, Dark, Stronger than you.

Not a big leap. There's romance books about weirder things.

Yeah I’m not sold. But like I said, not my problem. If it works for other people, salud.

[AlmightyGir]

6 hours ago, christianrapper said:

So here’s the question. If you were on Roshar could you see yourself kissing a war form listene? 

So... Humans don't have the ability to transform on a molecular level (well, scientifically speaking we do it every instance of every moment of every second of every minute of every hour... And so on), but we cannot directly choose our physical appearance, it's the combination of genetic traits.

But then, we have makeup, clothing choices, hair styles, beard styles, and so on.

Even within the context of two regular old real-life humans, a husband and wife can be more, or less attracted to each other based on their physical presentation at a given moment. People go to the gym, change their diets, etc. To make themselves more physically paletteable to their desired mate all the time.

Singers are pretty dope in that they can just change their form to match what their partner wants. What's less dope is that it also changes their attitudes, but Rlain had said that those changes are more of emphasis of attitudes that existed, so one would assume with conscious effort, they can be somewhat surpressed. Anyway, different topic.

The point is, there are many, many examples of science fiction, or other genres of fiction where inter-species relationships happen and work, and sometimes don't work. But I can't help but get the feeling you're trying to dance around a different topic with your arguments.

I think someone else mentioned Elves in the thread, and I think that's a really good example. People are totally fine with human-elf relationships in media, because elves look just like humans, but prettier and with pointy ears... Let's completely remove the fact that a 40 year old human is middle aged, and a 100 year old elf is considered a child by their society. And yet somehow it's all just fine.

What are you *really* hung up on?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, AlmightyGir said:

What are you *really* hung up on?

Agreed. Though I don't know if that conversation is truly relevant. 

[christianrapper]

On 1/9/2025 at 5:41 PM, rabidhexley said:

This is the oddest discussion to me lol. Inter-humanoid species dating is like totally standard stuff for speculative fiction. What if Rlain was an Elf instead? Would that be okay? Elves aren't human either. Is romancing Asari crew members in Mass Effect gross?

 

Singers are just another take on the huge library of humanoid fantasy/sci-fi races. Is it just weird because they have shells?

Elves look like humans with pointy ears. Based on the fiction they are either just taller or shorter than humans. However, the question is also would YOU date someone like a singer or another species like that if you were in a world where that is an option. Dating an elf is nothing. Dating a singer would be more like dating a troll. Singers are humanoid, but they don’t look as much like humans as elves and dwarves. Singers also have different forms that make them look more or less human. 

Edited January 14, 2025 by christianrapper

[Arceoxys he/him]

Frankly, this sounds more like you're uncomfortable with the idea of dating someone that is ugly to you. Which is fine, but that is clearly not the case for Renarin, who does not find the singer species to be unappealing to look at. It really is quite as simple as that. 

 

I personally would also date a singer. This is not even a big leap, considering speculative fiction.

[cvamoca]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Most stories like this (Contact, Project: Hail Mary, etc. - even parts of Enderverse) do not have a Romance arc at all - they are more about people trying to understand something that is so different. Usually in an attempt to understand motives or achieve a method of communication. Good stories, but the "can a human have a romantic relationship" question usuallly never comes up, because that is not what the story is about.

Minor Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Such as Speaker for the Dead (Spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

Andrew trying to understand the lifecycle of the "piggies."

or P:HM (spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Grace and Team trying to understand the first extra-solar life they encounter at the beginning and (more spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Later when Grace tries to understand, communicate and work with Rocky

 

 

Hope that helps

Project Hail Mary is one of my favourite books- the audio version is so well done by the narrator, he brought Rocky's musical language to life. Just finished a reread recently.

[Argenti he/him]

On 1/10/2025 at 3:52 PM, Arceoxys said:

Frankly, this sounds more like you're uncomfortable with the idea of dating someone that is ugly to you. Which is fine, but that is clearly not the case for Renarin, who does not find the singer species to be unappealing to look at. It really is quite as simple as that. 

 

I personally would also date a singer. This is not even a big leap, considering speculative fiction.

They're honestly about as far away from humans as klingons in most forms, which isn't far at all. 

This is a photo of what we're saying is gross to kiss. Most singer forms are just people with painted skin, or in heavy carapace that you could honestly just pretend is armor.

I'd kiss one.

[bmcclure7]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:42 PM, christianrapper said:

Elves look like humans with pointy ears. Bases on the fiction they are either just taller or shorter than humans. However, the question is also would YOU date someone like a singer or another species like that if you were in a world where that is an option. Dating an elf is nothing. Dating a singer would be more like dating a troll. Singers are humanoid, but they don’t look as much like humans as elves and dwarves. Singers also have different forms that make them look more or less human. 

You should look up the official art of singers there VERY much human in the way they look they are far from trolls I doubt most people would advertise to datting them

[Ripheus23]

Zig-zag contribution: I wonder if the Kalphrena/Syladin ship could be diagonalized as asexual-but-not-aromantic, or as a case of "romantic friendship," or something else along those lines. I worry that Kaladin is doomed to be single otherwise as of now  but maybe he's at a point in his life where he can embrace an ace identity, say. (I guess he could relate to Ash on this level, or Vedel or another Herald. Maybe not Ash, if the symbolism of her being Jezrien's daughter messed with the symbolism of Kaladin as Jezrien's replacement.)

I mean, sure, Chana didn't despite being a Herald, and assuming Kaladin and Co. free Roshar from Retribution, he'd have a new chance at romance then, or even in the midst of things beforehand, but (A) it was hard for me to interpret him dancing with Syl as non-romantic but also (B) the surrounding text didn't resonate with the parts of previous books where Kal's lack of luck in his love life is mentioned. Like, it didn't seem that Kal was himself interpreting his dance with Syl as traditionally romantic.

Hell, maybe the Venladin prediction could still come true down the road  I'm fine with Rlain and Renarin fulfilling that theme, though (of human-listener/singer reconciliation through love's true power: it seems necessary for the Archive's ethical symbolism, and Rlain and Renarin freeing Mishram was a great way to carry through that representation).

(Another option for Kal: Leshwi, maybe? She's big on Gravitation and spear-wielding, which match to Kal quite well.)

[RefusesToElaborate]

On 1/10/2025 at 6:53 AM, AlmightyGir said:

Love is love. As long as both parties are capable of, and are consenting, what's the problem?

Devils advocate warning:

[Gestures vaguely in the direction of Mass Effect]

Mass Effect presents a world where interspecies relationships have to deal with conflicting biology. For instance, a Drell/Human relationship cannot dance around the fact that Drell saliva, when ingested by a human, has a hallucinogenic, psychedelic effect. With that in mind, a simple kiss can erode a Human beings judgement, and thereby, their capacity for consent, objectively regardless of how much they love their Drell partner.

And then we get into Turian/Human relations. There is conflicting DNA that when ingested will act as a toxin between the species. Yes, there are ways to mitigate this but you show me tech that can't be broken and then I'll agree it's not a risk.

Or the fact that a pairing of Quarian and any other species is immediately potentially life threatening for the Quarian due to their absence of an immune system after however many centuries of living aboard a nomad fleet.

Relating it back to the Cosmere... specifically Renarin and Rlain. Imagine being in a relationship with a partner who, as a fact of their psyche, has a habit of every time it rains coming home in a different personality. It rains, hey your partner is suddenly all about work. It rains, hey suddenly your partner wants nothing more than art. It rains, they come home stern and ready to fight anything that approaches the home.

Then imagine you, being that person who a shift in personality should be like a shift in the weather, or at least as frequent. And your partner cannot fully understand your language because they lack a fundamental understanding of a thing everyone else you know hears.

There is more to relationships than consent, we can consent to things that damage us, (source: employment.)

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Imagine being in a relationship with a partner who, as a fact of their psyche, has a habit of every time it rains coming home in a different personality. It rains, hey your partner is suddenly all about work. It rains, hey suddenly your partner wants nothing more than art. It rains, they come home stern and ready to fight anything that approaches the home.

I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of how Singers work.

They aren’t compelled to change forms at every opportunity. In their backstory, Venli and Eshonai spent long periods of time in their preferred forms with no issue. During the war against the Alethi, many Listeners spent years in warform for practicality. Singers choose what forms to take and when, and they are more than capable of talking their plans through with their partner.

Also, as Rlain explains in WaT, changing forms is not the same as changing personality. It’s the same base personality, but with different sides being emphasised. That sounds more like a mood shift than a personality change.

How Rlain will go about changing forms now that Highstorms aren’t a thing anymore is anyone’s guess, but we shouldn’t just assume the current situation will make romance untenable forever.

2 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

And your partner cannot fully understand your language because they lack a fundamental understanding of a thing everyone else you know hears.

There are IRL couples who don’t share the same first language and they make it work. People are smart and find ways to communicate, even if that involves learning new things.

In the case of Rlain and Renarin, we have seen that Renarin can hear and speak to the Rhythms, at least to an extent. And Rlain is fully capable of communicating with humans without Rhythms.

 

It is possible to push the alien-ness of a fictional species to the point where I would think ‘hold up, these guys can’t have romantic relationships with humans, they are just too different. It couldn’t work without someone getting hurt.’ But the Singers are nowhere near that point. They are very similar to humans in terms of psychology.

[AlmightyGir]

4 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Devils advocate warning:

[Gestures vaguely in the direction of Mass Effect]

Mass Effect presents a world where interspecies relationships have to deal with conflicting biology. For instance, a Drell/Human relationship cannot dance around the fact that Drell saliva, when ingested by a human, has a hallucinogenic, psychedelic effect. With that in mind, a simple kiss can erode a Human beings judgement, and thereby, their capacity for consent, objectively regardless of how much they love their Drell partner.

I don't think anything I've said contradicts or disagrees with this. In fact I think I was quite explicit about needing to be capable of giving informed consent.

[christianrapper]

10 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You should look up the official art of singers there VERY much human in the way they look they are far from trolls I doubt most people would advertise to datting them

I did. Humans don’t have shells on their heads or armor.  They look like humans crossed with clams or turtles. 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, christianrapper said:

I did. Humans don’t have shells on their heads or armor.  They look like humans crossed with clams or turtles. 

No you clearly didn’t let me show you

 

Are honestly going to say that these people do not look mostly human?

[Nitpicking]

8 hours ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

Relating it back to the Cosmere... specifically Renarin and Rlain. Imagine being in a relationship with a partner who, as a fact of their psyche, has a habit of every time it rains coming home in a different personality. It rains, hey your partner is suddenly all about work. It rains, hey suddenly your partner wants nothing more than art. It rains, they come home stern and ready to fight anything that approaches the home.

Hey, can the Singers change forms now? There are no highstorms.

[RefusesToElaborate]

1 minute ago, Nitpicking said:

Hey, can the Singers change forms now? There are no highstorms.

... Retrivangian wouldnt just deprive himself of the thing that makes Singers useful. Would he?

If he does, dumb Taravangian is still alive and well.

[bmcclure7]

12 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Hey, can the Singers change forms now? There are no highstorms.

The everstorm can also be used

[Argenti he/him]

6 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Hey, can the Singers change forms now? There are no highstorms.

Yeah, the everstorm provides. Also fused can insta return. 

[BinarySecond]

I think that bmcclure7 is on the money here; I don't recognise OPs description of Singer's at all

20 hours ago, christianrapper said:

They look like humans crossed with clams or turtles

Certified bruh moment, unfortunately.

My view is that it requires minimal suspension of disbelief. If a person could convincingly cosplay a Singer I don't see the big deal.

Anyone know where I can buy copious amount of red, white, and black body paint? No particular reason.

Edited January 13, 2025 by BinarySecond

[christianrapper]

On 1/10/2025 at 8:49 AM, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Because at the end of the day people are people. Wether they are old or young, large or small, yolish or singer - thats a person. This extends to spren too, it seems. Its clear that Brandon wants us to view all of these different groups as people. I think there is some alien prejudice involved in this discussion because people are imagining real life aliens. Thats why this is acceptable (imo).

 

These aren't real life aliens. They are a species that has been living in concert with humans for THOUSANDS of years. Its not like a singer hopped off a spaceship and immediately started dating a human. Even if that was the case, they all have a common creator. Ado clearly intended for species to be able to breed, or they wouldn't have allowed that. 

 

There is a lot of this in the cosmere. We have Wax and Wayne both dating Kandra (who are far more inhuman than singers, they literally eat humans). We have heralds dating humans when they are basically spren. We have Hoid dating Jasnah even though he knew her great great great great great great grandpa. We have Syladin basically comfirmed. 

 

People are people, and this is a fantasy universe. I expect us to see all kinds of relationships. Dragons with humans, humans and sho-del, shard and human, sleepless and dragon, spren and sho-del could all be possible. 

Heralds are a bit more than spren. Heralds can reproduce.we don’t know if their herald genes actually pass down to their offspring. I wonder if Sanderson is going to explore if the herald part of their makeup actually affects their kids. 

[RedBlue]

32 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

Heralds are a bit more than spren. Heralds can reproduce.we don’t know if their herald genes actually pass down to their offspring.

I agree that Heralds are much more human-like than spren-like, but is reproduction really the dividing line here?

I get that some people want kids and not being able to have them would be a dealbreaker, but that’s just some people. Plenty more people don’t see reproduction as a goal in their romantic relationships.

[Hexagonal He/Him]

2 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that Heralds are much more human-like than spren-like, but is reproduction really the dividing line here?

I get that some people want kids and not being able to have them would be a dealbreaker, but that’s just some people. Plenty more people don’t see reproduction as a goal in their romantic relationships.

I definitely agree with you here, but it is something to consider. I think earlier in this post it was brought up about Horneaters and Herdazians being human singer hybrids, which adds credence to the idea that there could be offspring from a singer-human relationship(just regular biology or something magical we really don't know yet). I personally am in the group that it is just regular biology, as nothing has really been suggested to make us think otherwise, just throwing the possibility out there because who knows with the cosmere(part of why I enjoy it so much).

[RedBlue]

55 minutes ago, Hexagonal said:

I think earlier in this post it was brought up about Horneaters and Herdazians being human singer hybrids, which adds credence to the idea that there could be offspring from a singer-human relationship(just regular biology or something magical we really don't know yet).

We can be pretty confident that humans and Singers can and have produced fertile hybrids.

My point was that I don’t think reproduction is important to the question of whether it’s acceptable (or icky?) for humans and Singers to date. It’s especially irrelevant in the case of Renarin and Rlain (those two aren’t having kids).

1 hour ago, Hexagonal said:

I personally am in the group that it is just regular biology, as nothing has really been suggested to make us think otherwise, just throwing the possibility out there because who knows with the cosmere(part of why I enjoy it so much).

To me, it seems like intelligent design is in play in the cosmere, so I tend not to draw a distinction between ‘regular biology’ and ‘magical fantasy genetics.’

[Argenti he/him]

50 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

To me, it seems like intelligent design is in play in the cosmere, so I tend not to draw a distinction between ‘regular biology’ and ‘magical fantasy genetics.’

Yes. There's not really a distinction in fantasy, and especially in the cosmere. Your soul has DNA, apparently.