How do you feel about inter-species…

[Hexagonal He/Him]

2 hours ago, RedBlue said:

To me, it seems like intelligent design is in play in the cosmere, so I tend not to draw a distinction between ‘regular biology’ and ‘magical fantasy genetics.’

That's a good point. I was more thinking along the lines of how the God King has a kid(or any returned) compared to just the conventional real world equivalent. More speculating if there had to be some sort of investiture influx or connection jank. The fact that intelligent design is in play for these species does make me wonder about the biochemistry at play with their DNA(and how it corresponds to their spiritual DNA), which would be really neat to know. There is also the spread of humans through the cognitive realm, which could be cool to track. Like maybe track different populations and their crossovers(probably easier with threnodites and rosharans). Slightly off track though...

Anyways, intelligent design in the cosmere. The capability for Singers and Humans to create fertile offspring combined with the likelihood of intelligent design being at play makes singer human relationships the most reasonable interspecies relationships in the cosmere, especially compared to the mortal-immortal relationships we've seen(wayne-meelan).

[christianrapper]

8 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I agree that Heralds are much more human-like than spren-like, but is reproduction really the dividing line here?

I get that some people want kids and not being able to have them would be a dealbreaker, but that’s just some people. Plenty more people don’t see reproduction as a goal in their romantic relationships.

I wonder if Spren can reproduce that way if they want to.  Syl said that they have all the parts that humans do. That might not be a throw away line. 

[cvamoca]

On 1/14/2025 at 2:02 AM, christianrapper said:

I wonder if Spren can reproduce that way if they want to.  Syl said that they have all the parts that humans do. That might not be a throw away line. 

So if Kaladin's now a Herald, does that make him a spren, too?

[Basia]

I think listeners are super close to humans and why not give it a go if two characters share a connection. 
 

What’s even more interesting for me is Kaladin’s relationship with Syl. They’re so close and she is starting to become more and more human, with preferring being the same size as humans, and starting to become able to touch things, have human emotions when she cryes at the end etc. I wonder if some of these changes are happening because on some deeper level she wants Kal to see her as a woman and not just a spren. 

[Hexagonal He/Him]

16 hours ago, Basia said:

I wonder if some of these changes are happening because on some deeper level she wants Kal to see her as a woman and not just a spren. 

That seems pretty reasonable. Syladin was always a ship I was against, and then Kaladin became a herald. I think it's a possibility that them being 5th ideal and now Kaladin being a herald that he could come to see her less as a spren. The physical differences(including the fact that Syl is immortal, while Kaladin was not) made me shy away from them being in a relationship. I think now that they are immortal and beings of investiture they can understand each other more(though I do worry that them being together could undo some of the growth Syl was having about not living for just Kaladin in WaT though).

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 1/9/2025 at 3:15 PM, christianrapper said:

 

That Rlain/Renarin relationship is disgusting to me. Let’s not get into the same sex thing. I can’t imagine kissing a sapient shelled creature. Just imagine if apes were sapient and we have always known that. Now imagine yourself kissing a sapient ape. You can’t say that doesn’t make your skin crawl. That “love is love” phrase isn’t applicable to dating outside of your species. There are other practical problems with that also. There are things like introducing new diseases to the human population and other things like can you two even reproduce. 

This kind of take is amazing to me in a lot of ways. I would absolutely date a Singer/Listener. Comparing them to sapient ape's is problematic on it's face, but aside from that, does any bring this up about Star Trek/Star Wars/Doctor Who/etc? These shows have, and usually the people who are pointing out how disgusting those relationships are, are not the good guys. Inter-species romances have been depicted in literature and on-screen for the better part of the last century, so why are Listeners/Singers/Amians/Sho-Del suddenly in need of discussion of how disgusting they are, and made comparison to apes?

It's mathematically impossible that humans are the only sapient species in this galaxy, much less the universe. Would I be willing to engage in a romantic relationship with someone from another part of the universe? If the attraction is there, and we're both actively consenting, then of course I would. If someone else's love and affection "makes your skin crawl" then feel free to ignore them and keep your disgust to yourself. Other people's love has nothing to do with you, and your bad feelings about it are nothing but reductive. They add nothing to someone else, other than, "Hey you! I feel bad when I think about you, and so you should feel bad about yourself."

[Anttix]

Everything consentual is fine by me. A bit stupid part is that I don't remember any other listener relationships being explored in not-mateform. Have warform straight listeners explored with humans or each other off camera?

Kandra-human relationships seem more interesting, and one must ask what different skeletons did MeLaan use while intimate with Wayne, and were all bipedal? Bit boring if they were...

[Hexagonal He/Him]

Just now, Anttix said:

Everything consentual is fine by me. A bit stupid part is that I don't remember any other listener relationships being explored in not-mateform. Have warform straight listeners explored with humans or each other off camera?
 

I think that is a pretty valid criticism. We don't really know much about how listeners(or singers as a whole species) perceive romance and relationships. We know that mates usually stick together as a war pair, but is that due to a romantic reason or something else? I hope we get to see some singer citizens who are just living their life in SA6, it'd be cool to sort of show us how they do relationships as a precursor for Renarin and Rlain.

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Anttix said:

Everything consentual is fine by me. A bit stupid part is that I don't remember any other listener relationships being explored in not-mateform. Have warform straight listeners explored with humans or each other off camera?

Venli-Demid was touched-upon in WoR, and Eshonai  discusses a few times how once-mates will stay together and, in Warform, create a WarPair (Thude and Bila, for example). However, I think the main reason this has not come up much (so far) is the relative dearth of Listener/Singer viewpoints in the first arc.

Eshonai, Venli, Rlain - all non-standard in some way with only Eshonai getting interlude viewpoints in WoR, Oathbringer had Venli Viewpoints in the interludes, and one Rlain Viewpoint (Ch 55). 

Rlain's viewpoints in WaT seem to imply that malen and femalen Forms tend to be asexual (to some extent) but not necessarily aromantic; but mostly we just have to wait for a wider selection of viewpoints and/or more information in the second arc. 

[Anttix]

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Venli-Demid was touched-upon in WoR, and Eshonai  discusses a few times how once-mates will stay together and, in Warform, create a WarPair (Thude and Bila, for example). However, I think the main reason this has not come up much (so far) is the relative dearth of Listener/Singer viewpoints in the first arc.

Eshonai, Venli, Rlain - all non-standard in some way with only Eshonai getting interlude viewpoints in WoR, Oathbringer had Venli Viewpoints in the interludes, and one Rlain Viewpoint (Ch 55). 

Rlain's viewpoints in WaT seem to imply that malen and femalen Forms tend to be asexual (to some extent) but not necessarily aromantic; but mostly we just have to wait for a wider selection of viewpoints and/or more information in the second arc. 

Fair point. I think common lack of interest towards listener/singer storyline quite possibly stems from the fact they are too unrelatable. They are on a quest for basic human need freedom, but other than that we don't really know enough about what "makes them tick". What was the ultimate goal of a common singer before humans arrived? How much hierarchy is natural for them etc. 

[MagicMaggot]

3 minutes ago, Anttix said:

Fair point. I think common lack of interest towards listener/singer storyline quite possibly stems from the fact they are too unrelatable. They are on a quest for basic human need freedom, but other than that we don't really know enough about what "makes them tick". What was the ultimate goal of a common singer before humans arrived? How much hierarchy is natural for them etc. 

I'd argue much of that is probably going to get some deeper exploration in the later half of SA, and Venli's arc as well as Rlain's were very much in preparation for that. Rlain and Renarin are probably going into the singer empire itself (with their corrupted radiant spren, who might have goals themselves), and Venli and the Willshapers will probably have something to say about oppressive practices going on there - and bring parts of anciuent singer identity with them through the stone they talk to, And then there is Mishram, who wants to wrest the singers from Odium (I guess from Retribution now). The second half seems to have a much better setup to explore singer identity and their vision of the future and the past from different perspectives, than the first half did. And I guess that's where we will see if the characters were just underdeveloped because they were an afterthought, or if there is really too much about them that's hard to relate to. 

[cvamoca]

I  am not sure how I feel about a Singer/Human pairing, same sex or not. We've been told that when not in mateform, they are basically asexual.  And Venli specifically mentioned that being in mateform was kinda gross, and she thought why do they even want to do that, other than for reproduction?  Sex for Singers is much different than for us, Venli thought it awful that Humans go around in our version of Mateform, all the time.

Then along comes a storyline of Rlain and Renarin as budding  lovers. A couple books ago the Singers were the Big Bad (Though in reality, humans were) and now Rlain, who pretty much hated humans, has fallen for one? That strained my credulousness (Is that a word? If not, it should be!) Credulity or whatever.  Because I'm an audiobook listener by necessity, any sex scene in any book kinda grosses me out, because I don't want to be read to. But fast forward 30 seconds at a time fixes that. I appreciate Brandon Sanderson for not writing explicit sex scenes. 

However it really doesn't make sense that Singers, who take mateform to reproduce and then generally take another form, would get anything out of a relationship with a same sex human.

Would I want to date a singer? Naw, too spiky, and no mustache. They don't come in French Canadian.

[AlmightyGir]

16 minutes ago, cvamoca said:

Then along comes a storyline of Rlain and Renarin as budding  lovers. A couple books ago the Singers were the Big Bad (Though in reality, humans were) and now Rlain, who pretty much hated humans, has fallen for one?

Romeo and Juliet was a story about two people from rival houses who were literally murdering each other in the streets over a misunderstood grudge. Forbidden love is a pillar of fantasy romance, and has been for hundreds of years.

 

17 minutes ago, cvamoca said:

I  am not sure how I feel about a Singer/Human pairing, same sex or not. We've been told that when not in mateform, they are basically asexual.  And Venli specifically mentioned that being in mateform was kinda gross, and she thought why do they even want to do that, other than for reproduction?  Sex for Singers is much different than for us, Venli thought it awful that Humans go around in our version of Mateform, all the time.

See also: Captain Kirk.

[Hexagonal He/Him]

12 minutes ago, cvamoca said:

I  am not sure how I feel about a Singer/Human pairing, same sex or not. We've been told that when not in mateform, they are basically asexual.  And Venli specifically mentioned that being in mateform was kinda gross, and she thought why do they even want to do that, other than for reproduction?  Sex for Singers is much different than for us, Venli thought it awful that Humans go around in our version of Mateform, all the time.

I think that there is not too much physical attraction between Renarin and Rlain(only the occasional hand touching and the like), and they are more romantically interested. It would make sense to me that singers can be romantically inclined, even not in mateform, which would allow them to have relationships outside of it. The warpairs are a good example of this, so I think it is not completely impossible. I can see what you are bringing up though, like how they experience sex and romance very different from humans.

[cvamoca]

6 hours ago, Hexagonal said:

I think that there is not too much physical attraction between Renarin and Rlain(only the occasional hand touching and the like), and they are more romantically interested. It would make sense to me that singers can be romantically inclined, even not in mateform, which would allow them to have relationships outside of it. The warpairs are a good example of this, so I think it is not completely impossible. I can see what you are bringing up though, like how they experience sex and romance very different from humans.

That's absolutely a great way of summarizing their relationship.  As they both felt like outsiders, the attraction to each other is perfectly right.

6 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:

Romeo and Juliet was a story about two people from rival houses who were literally murdering each other in the streets over a misunderstood grudge. Forbidden love is a pillar of fantasy romance, and has been for hundreds of years.

 

See also: Captain Kirk.

Romeo and Juliet also tore their 2 houses to pieces and died, if I'm remembering my Shakespeare. We don't want that to happen here.

Kirk would sleep with virtually anything IIRC?

[AlmightyGir]

28 minutes ago, cvamoca said:

Romeo and Juliet also tore their 2 houses to pieces and died, if I'm remembering my Shakespeare. We don't want that to happen here.

After the deaths of Romeo and Juliet, the houses end their feuds.

[cvamoca]

38 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:

After the deaths of Romeo and Juliet, the houses end their feuds.

This is true.

 

[AonSoo he/him]

How about a Singer - Chasmfeind relationship. Venli and Thundercloud. (I don't think Venli and Thundercloud could actually work)

[christianrapper]

6 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

This kind of take is amazing to me in a lot of ways. I would absolutely date a Singer/Listener. Comparing them to sapient ape's is problematic on it's face, but aside from that, does any bring this up about Star Trek/Star Wars/Doctor Who/etc? These shows have, and usually the people who are pointing out how disgusting those relationships are, are not the good guys. Inter-species romances have been depicted in literature and on-screen for the better part of the last century, so why are Listeners/Singers/Amians/Sho-Del suddenly in need of discussion of how disgusting they are, and made comparison to apes?

It's mathematically impossible that humans are the only sapient species in this galaxy, much less the universe. Would I be willing to engage in a romantic relationship with someone from another part of the universe? If the attraction is there, and we're both actively consenting, then of course I would. If someone else's love and affection "makes your skin crawl" then feel free to ignore them and keep your disgust to yourself. Other people's love has nothing to do with you, and your bad feelings about it are nothing but reductive. They add nothing to someone else, other than, "Hey you! I feel bad when I think about you, and so you should feel bad about yourself."

You literally just made my point. You don’t see a problem dating a fantasy made up species.  However, you have a problem comparing that to dating a hypothetical sapient real earth species. If apes were sapient then dating a Parshendi would be exactly like dating an ape. It’s not problematic at all. 

2 hours ago, Hexagonal said:

I think that there is not too much physical attraction between Renarin and Rlain(only the occasional hand touching and the like), and they are more romantically interested. It would make sense to me that singers can be romantically inclined, even not in mateform, which would allow them to have relationships outside of it. The warpairs are a good example of this, so I think it is not completely impossible. I can see what you are bringing up though, like how they experience sex and romance very different from humans.

I am glad that some people are actually thinking about the question instead of just saying “love is love” and equating it with dating outside of your race and gay dating. Dating outside of your particular species comes with a whole host of problems. There is the physical part of your relationship. Also a different species will think totally different from a human. I definitely saw some physical attraction between Rlain and Renarin. You don’t kiss someone that you’re not physically attracted to. There was an emotional connection because they were both outsiders. However, the physical attraction was there, too. 

[christianrapper]

5 hours ago, Anttix said:

Everything consentual is fine by me. A bit stupid part is that I don't remember any other listener relationships being explored in not-mateform. Have warform straight listeners explored with humans or each other off camera?

Kandra-human relationships seem more interesting, and one must ask what different skeletons did MeLaan use while intimate with Wayne, and were all bipedal? Bit boring if they were...

Did you finish the book? We glimpsed one in Dalinar’s visions. It was a major plot point. 

[AlmightyGir]

5 hours ago, Anttix said:

Everything consentual is fine by me. A bit stupid part is that I don't remember any other listener relationships being explored in not-mateform. Have warform straight listeners explored with humans or each other off camera?

Kandra-human relationships seem more interesting, and one must ask what different skeletons did MeLaan use while intimate with Wayne, and were all bipedal? Bit boring if they were...

Let's be real, as long as the right Hat was involved, I think Wayne would have been down for just about anything.

[Anttix]

8 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Did you finish the book? We glimpsed one in Dalinar’s visions. It was a major plot point. 

Completely slipped my mind, haven't reached that part on reread and I went through about all other Cosmere writing in between. But yeah, I stand corrected.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

15 hours ago, christianrapper said:

You literally just made my point. You don’t see a problem dating a fantasy made up species.  However, you have a problem comparing that to dating a hypothetical sapient real earth species. If apes were sapient then dating a Parshendi would be exactly like dating an ape. It’s not problematic at all. 

My problem is the centuries long comparisons of minority people to monkeys and apes. It's a very well documented racist trope. Listeners and Singers aren't sapient animals. Their physiological forms are different from humans, but they are genetically compatible to mate with humans, as we have whole nations of humans with Singer ancestry. They are people. 

Would I have a relationship with a Neanderthal? As long as the previous conditions stated, were met? Yeah, why would that be a problem? And to take this nonsense argument to it's conclusion, would I date one of the apes from Planet of the Apes? Again, yes. Why would that be an issue, and why would you go so far as to state your blatant disgust at a very relatable part of this series, as well as what others have told you, they are comfortable with?

Whether intentional or unintentional, your example was bigoted on its face. It also wasn't helped by your entirely unnecessary commentary of how the romance between humans and singers, "made your skin crawled", indicating how disgusted you are at the thought of inter-species romance. You have no valid point here, other than you don't like the concept, you're disgusted by it, and you're apparently bothered that others have more imagination and openness than you do. You do you, but don't pretend that you've made some grand point. Your point is simple, subjective, reductive, and unnecessary. 

[Lacra Maldita]

On 1/10/2025 at 9:49 AM, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Because at the end of the day people are people. Wether they are old or young, large or small, yolish or singer - thats a person. This extends to spren too, it seems. Its clear that Brandon wants us to view all of these different groups as people. I think there is some alien prejudice involved in this discussion because people are imagining real life aliens. Thats why this is acceptable (imo).

 

These aren't real life aliens. They are a species that has been living in concert with humans for THOUSANDS of years. Its not like a singer hopped off a spaceship and immediately started dating a human. Even if that was the case, they all have a common creator. Ado clearly intended for species to be able to breed, or they wouldn't have allowed that. 

 

There is a lot of this in the cosmere. We have Wax and Wayne both dating Kandra (who are far more inhuman than singers, they literally eat humans). We have heralds dating humans when they are basically spren. We have Hoid dating Jasnah even though he knew her great great great great great great grandpa. We have Syladin basically comfirmed. 

 

People are people, and this is a fantasy universe. I expect us to see all kinds of relationships. Dragons with humans, humans and sho-del, shard and human, sleepless and dragon, spren and sho-del could all be possible. 

This. And let us remember that in classical literature there are many examples of interspecies relationships (humans with elves/dwarves, beauty and the beast). And in science fiction we have Star Treek.

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Whether intentional or unintentional, your example was bigoted on its face. It also wasn't helped by your entirely unnecessary commentary of how the romance between humans and singers, "made your skin crawled", indicating how disgusted you are at the thought of inter-species romance. You have no valid point here, other than you don't like the concept, you're disgusted by it, and you're apparently bothered that others have more imagination and openness than you do. You do you, but don't pretend that you've made some grand point. Your point is simple, subjective, reductive, and unnecessary. 

As much as I disagree with @christianrapper’s take on Renarin and Rlain, I think this an overstatement that veers uncomfortably close to being rude and conversation-ending. There’s nothing wrong with expressing an emotional reaction to part of the book, especially when the post started an interesting discussion thread. If you find it to be reductive, you don’t have to read or respond.

Additionally, I think the accusations of bigotry are unfair. Singers are not a marginalised ethnic group, they’re a fantasy alien species with an ape body plan. It’s reasonable to compare them to sapient apes (which humans also are). Sure, you can choose to read the Singers as a metaphor for human marginalised groups, but that is not the only valid interpretation.

Let’s keep this polite.