For the first time, I am disappointed in the prose

[Ironeyes]

I've never been on the "Brandon's prose is bad" train, but the prose in this book felt different from before. The book is engrossing--I read the entire thing in less than 36 hours--but every couple of chapters I would find myself ejected from the world of Roshar by an incongruously modern word or phrase. "I'm your ex" or "kick his ass" or "Do you want my therapy," plus Lift using "sh*t" as a swearword. Characters didn't speak like that in prior books. The distinctly in-world way they spoke was a positive feature of previous books and it kept the narrative and setting cohesive. I can't believe that the same Brandon who was embarrassed at having left the word "mooning" in a book where the world doesn't have a moon would be so lazy as to not think of turns of phrase that fit better with the world than modern American slang words that abruptly shift the tone from epic fantasy to YA mid-sentence. Before you ask, no, the lampshading on Lift's swearwords by saying she got it from Wit is insufficient. Lift makes up words. She could have used any random word there and nobody would have blinked an eye. 

Perhaps this is a feature of the editing team, and they're the ones who deserve my ire. 

[PopeLopez]

I completely agree, I found the prose to lean a lot more YA than the previous books. Which really startled me because Brandon is completely capable of writing more adult prose. I understand some of the dialogues where Kaladin is just verbatim stating what he's trying to do and the basic rules of therapy as he's coming up with them, and I am just familiar with them. I'm not even frustrated by the use of he word therapy in world. but yeah definitely agree over stuff like kick his ass and some of the break down in dialogue. On the other hand I thought the content of the story was very intriguing and found the pacing to be very well done in my opinion but some of the delivery was just not what I was expecting. I found the first days to be the most noticable, with the weird chapter of Syl talking about human extremities and the like. Somehow I think I'd rank this on the bottom of Stormlight for me, I still thoroughly enjoyed it and thought it was good but I think WoK and WoR are peak

Edited December 13, 2024 by PopeLopez

[TheOtherDave]

Yeah. Although for me, it’s not so much the modern swearing, it’s that it didn’t really start until RoW, and it feels out of place considering that the Rosharans have spent the past four books using their own swears.

Edited December 14, 2024 by TheOtherDave

[+Oltux72 he/him]

The old Roshar is dead. The lighteyed lords have fallen. Your dahn is a meaningless vestige of a system that lost. That means its way of speaking has fallen to the sands of time as well.

A world war is bound to change a lot of things, among them the way people speak. We are shown that. Compare prose from 1910 to prose from 1925.

 

[urwhenur]

I had some of the same feelings myself. Even though I read the book almost in one go, and feel like it sets up some interesting plot points for the second half, I cannot help but somehow feel that it is the weakest of the five.

I also felt that there was a shift: a lot of time and care was taken in order to establish a diverse cast or modern psychological treatment practices, but some of the actual execution of the story did not seem as refined to me, or felt a little bit rushed. Some examples that come to mind are the loophole for the contract, the way two of the battlefields resolved (the debate, where I felt Fen was convinced too easily for having known Taravangian and where he stands on the same issues; and the Shattered Plains, where lots of expectations were set upon El and he did not think to claim the most important part of the city for himself)... and to some extent Azir, where I felt that Adolin fighting against Abidi with plate while being impaired as much and him not losing not being entirely attributed to the Emperor not having been found already to be too unrealistic, his expertise with a makeshift peg having come way to soon.

In addition, I feel like some characters have evolved into charicatures of what they were shown to embody at certain points, where to me the clearest example is Kaladin, but Szeth also qualified to some extent. Kaladin in WoK was shown to be a complex character, intelligent and witty enough to understand political and strategic choices way above his station, with great potential to become a surgeon, and the drive to become a leader. Of course, while his emotional journey could impact his drive, confidence or desire to lead in that way, it feels strange to me to see that he would not know how a library is called, or conversely that he would find modern therapeutical proceedures so quickly from just some sessions back in RoW. For Szeth, I had thought he would be a little bit more complex and mature in a sense, and especially the final confrontation seemed a little bit rushed for me, with him immediatelly accepting to be truthless.

Of course, this may have been due to the high expectations the wait imposed on the book, but somehow it seems the weakest of the first five for me purely from the execution: this time it was hard to be invested on the characters other than from the fact that I had grown to love them from previous books, and even during the resolution this time it did not feel as earned to me in some cases from the characters' perspective. It seems to me that these tendecies I have noticed steadily grew from WoK all the way into WaT, maybe due to an incredible writing pace and the time between writing each book, and the change in editors. Coincidentally, that is the order I feel the books rank at (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), even though the Sanderlanches were indeed amazing and possibly better than WoK for most of the other books. 

Once again, most of these are personal taste or appreciations, and I know for many other people this did not seem to be the case (or they felt and enjoyed the shift) and I am very happy for them!

That all being said, I am glad to finally have a (partial) resolution for the characters' story, and thank Brandon for a wonderful universe I have found myself quite invested upon. 

Edited December 15, 2024 by urwhwnur

[QuantumAce]

On 12/15/2024 at 12:32 AM, urwhenur said:

n addition, I feel like some characters have evolved into charicatures of what they were shown to embody at certain points, where to me the clearest example is Kaladin, but Szeth also qualified to some extent. Kaladin in WoK was shown to be a complex character, intelligent and witty enough to understand political and strategic choices way above his station, with great potential to become a surgeon, and the drive to become a leader. Of course, while his emotional journey could impact his drive, confidence or desire to lead in that way, it feels strange to me to see that he would not know how a library is called, or conversely that he would find modern therapeutical proceedures so quickly from just some sessions back in RoW. For Szeth, I had thought he would be a little bit more complex and mature in a sense, and especially the final confrontation seemed a little bit rushed for me, with him immediatelly accepting to be truthless.

Some of the Kaladin and Szeth interactions seemed somewhat contrived to me. I felt like some of Kaladin's character depth was sacrificed for the sake of narrative convenience. 

[Wendy McGee]

The prose is didn't like was when there were some descriptions going, but it would pause and say ,"huh," or the like.  It wasn't even someone talking. I noticed it a few times, and I never had before so I didn't love that

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Wendy McGee said:

The prose is didn't like was when there were some descriptions going, but it would pause and say ,"huh," or the like.  It wasn't even someone talking. I noticed it a few times, and I never had before so I didn't love that

I wonder if it is an unconcious change, or if he is deliberately indicating something. Out of curiosity, I checked the other books as well.:

Spoiler

Instances of "Huh" not in dialog.

WoK: 0
WoR: 2 - Lift
OB: 1 - Kaladin, 1 - Lift
RoW: 1 - Kaladin, 2 - Adolin
WaT: 4 - Kaladin, 3 - Adolin, 1 - Szeth (FB)

Instances of "Huh" in dialog:

WoK: 1 - Syl
WoR: 1 - Syl, 4 - Kaladin, 3 - Zahel, 3 - Adolin, 1 - Moash, 1 - Lopen, 1 - Tyn, 1 - Palona, 1 - Wit, 1 - Valam, 1 - Sebarial, 1 - Elhokar
OB: 2 - Kaladin, 4 - Adolin, 2 - Lift, 2 - Dalinar, 1 - Fen, 1 - Shallan, 1 - Lyn, 1 - Navani, 1 - Vstim
RoW: 2 - Kaladin, 1 - Vathah, 1 - Kelek, 1 - Lift, 1 - Lirin
WaT: 1 - Wit, 3 - Syl, 2 - Kaladin, 1 - Geb, 1 - Bavilar

Totals:

WoK: 1
WoR: 21
OB: 17
RoW: 9
WaT: 16

The only pattern I can see from those numbers is that the instances in Dialog have decreased while the instances used in "thought" from a POV character increased.

[Mathachew]

Been a hardcore fan for well over a decade. I heard a number of people talk about the prose negatively, but it would never bother me as it made the reading experience a breeze. I appreciated and looked forward to his consistency. However... the prose over the last few years has dropped. All that "experimenting" in the secret projects, imho, is just how he writes now more or less.

I remember reading an article several years ago that highlighted show, don't tell in an exchange between Dalinar and Adolin from The Way of Kings. Adolin is terse and his annoyance is evident:

Quote

Dalinar thought on that for a moment. Could the lad have a point? “Have I told you the story of the king carrying the boulder?”
“Yes,” Adolin said.
“I have?”
“Twice. And you made me listen to the passage being read another time.”

If Brandon wrote that in with the quality of WaT, it may have looked like this:

Quote

Dalinar thought on that for a moment. Could the lad have a point? “Have I... told you the story of the king carrying the boulder?”
“Yes,” Adolin said.
“I... have?”
“Twice. And you made me listen to the passage being read another time.”

Brandon wrote everyone emphasizing their words and thoughts constantly. Humans, Radiants, spren, singers, Fused, Heralds, Unmade and even Shards. There might not be a prominent figure in this book that didn't emphasize a word or phrase. You can hardly read multiple paragraphs before it occurs again and again, sometimes multiple times in the same paragraph or even the same storming sentence. How does one speak with a cool and emotionless voice but also speak with emotion/stress?

Quote

“Chana,” Nale continued, his voice cool and emotionless as the glowing face spoke, “you’re being unreasonable. This entire endeavor of yours was unreasonable.

And then there's the overuse of ellipses. Nale's constant use of them during the last day or two was frustrating to read. It reminded me of the prologue for The Great Hunt. The phrase "The man who called himself Bors" is used 34 times. I don't think I finished the prologue after the 20th occurance. Yeah, it's nitpicky, but it's incredibly annoying.

Estimated ellipses count
The Way of Kings: 653
Words of Radiance: 1,394
Oathbringer: 1,913
Rhythm of War: 1,899
Wind and Truth: 3,293

I hope Brandon gets back to form. I don't care if his prose isn't the best, it was far better than what we got in WaT.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Mathachew
Clarification

[SirWerebear]

I agree, I was also disappointed by the prose. The ellipses, the italics, the single word sentences with capitals for empasis were coming off as childish. Especially the "But stand. Kaladin. DID." and "I. Am. THE LAW." moments that were supposed to be meaningful and the culmination of character arcs. 

Not to mention the constant telling instead of showing.

[Letryx13]

I wasn't exactly disappointed with the prose, but I didn't much care for it. Sanderson definitely changed up the character's way of speaking in this one, and it did feel a little inconsistent with the previous books. I can understand something like that happening after a lengthy time skip, like we'll have between books five and six, but for the most part the stormlight books each occur within a day of each other. It gave me a weird feeling that they talked so differently in WaT.

[Raven Wilder]

I feel like some shifts in the prose might be a deliberate choice, done for thematic reasons.

In Tanavast's chapters, the writing style becomes very grand and formal, because that's how Tanavast thinks and talks. But during those chapters, whenever Rayse talks, it's in a very casual, modern-sounding style that clashes so much with Tanavast's narration, it's clearly meant to feel discordant - a demonstration that Rayse isn't playing along with the grand narrative that Tanavast is trying to build up.

That gets me thinking, since this is the book where the characters start really questioning Honor and whether they should follow the plan the god laid out for them, maybe the characters choosing their words in a different way is meant to be symbolic of them no longer being so aligned with Tanavast's will.

[QuantumAce]

On 12/27/2024 at 2:24 PM, Mathachew said:

It reminded me of the prologue for The Great Hunt. The phrase "The man who called himself Bors" is used 34 times. I don't think I finished the prologue after the 20th occurance. Yeah, it's nitpicky, but it's incredibly annoying.

Nobody beats you over the head with a dead horse like Robert Jordan. 

[Leuthie]

His rigid book structure was a great idea. However, he has a tendency to explode his outlines as he writes. See Mistborn Era 2 4 book series being born from what started as a single volume he planned on the side.

Rhythm of War had plot issues that probably came from having to get a lot of pieces in place to make book 5 work. This is textbook "middle book syndrome".

It's my belief that Brandon had way too many outline items to hit in Book 5 and no way to break it into multiple volumes. This is the first book he's written where you can see the outline. In RoW he sacrificed pacing to get things done. In this book, he had to sacrifice character voice and even his own author's voice to facilitate required info dumps. On top of this, he probably had to scrap a lot of detail, leading to the "YA" feeling. He also pretty much threw temporal continuity out the window at several points just to make sure everything got done. 

We're seeing the compromises that a storyteller like Brandon is willing to make to tell stories that novelists like GRRM and Rothfuss refuse to even consider. 

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him]

I get you completely. 

Maybe it's because I started reading stormlight when I was 17 and now have a lot more to compare it to. Maybe it's because it's actually changed. But the prose in this book really took me out of it.

The prose was never what drew me into his books. But there were always scenes that I really liked and genuinely enjoy reading each time.

Eshonai returning with stormform.

Shallan being comforted by wit in Kholinar.

Eshonais death.

 

But this time. None.

 

 

[Returned he/him]

I also noted a big increase in the phrase "what on Roshar?" starting with Oathbringer. It's not a horrible phrase or anything, but it (along with the stunned incredulity it expresses) stood out to me as a change. One thing that really bothered me in WaT is the use of interrogative sentences ending with periods instead of question marks. It's punctuation, not prose, but still.

I'm curious about the editing and revision processes the books undergo now compared with what took place with the earlier works (post-Elantris, but pre-Oathbringer).

 

On 1/2/2025 at 12:59 PM, Leuthie said:

On top of this, he probably had to scrap a lot of detail, leading to the "YA" feeling. He also pretty much threw temporal continuity out the window at several points just to make sure everything got done.

I think this take is probably right. It rankled me more than the prose did, though I, too, feel that it has changed for the worse over the last several releases.

The structure of the book worked well enough for me up until day 8 or 9, when I felt it had really started to drag. Too much seemed drawn out just for the sake of keeping parallel storylines going through the whole plot sequence, and it drained the dramatic tension to realize that nothing consequential was going to happen in any setting up until the tenth day. At which point everything was going to be tidied up at the same time. I was very disappointed when I recognized that Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, Renarin, and Rlain were not going to get back to Roshar to participate in events, and that 95% of what they did in the book was to essentially watch a documentary. I was very disappointed that, after the "look how dangerous he is" and "his presence will change the course of a battlefield" setup, El's big contribution to the Shattered Plains was to... bring more soldiers there. And Dai-Gonarthis, the mysterious and feared Unmade, contributed by chauffeuring those troops at danger of some unknown (to us) cost (details forthcoming, someday).

I might not have felt this way if not for six characters' entire story (virtually, anyways) being in the spiritual realm. Which is now just the Tom Bombadil of locations in the Cosmere-- enough power to do anything you might want, but all you're likely to get from it is exposition. WaT has a lot to like, but I did expect a bit more than it offered.

[agbaby]

Crazy - I think his prose was a lot better and tighter in this book than past books, especially in the era of post when his editor retired. His cheesy moments have always existed. but I thought a lot of this was pretty crisp overall.

I am not trying to sound mean here, but I feel like powering though a book like this actually makes the low points stand out more and means you have less chance to sit with the good parts in the middle. I powered through RoW and didn't really like it at first. took a month to get through it on reread and I thought it was a lot better (though probably still my least favorite of the SA - that book was the one that most needed an editor imo)

I took a month to get through WoT fwiw

[Nitpicking]

9 hours ago, agbaby said:

I am not trying to sound mean here, but I feel like powering though a book like this actually makes the low points stand out more and means you have less chance to sit with the good parts in the middle. I powered through RoW and didn't really like it at first. took a month to get through it on reread and I thought it was a lot better (though probably still my least favorite of the SA - that book was the one that most needed an editor imo)

I took a month to get through WoT fwiw

I'm not trying to sound mean here, either, but I think you're looking for reasons to say that those (like me) who disliked aspects of this book are wrong. My perspective is that tastes differ. It's great that you enjoyed it, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong to find parts of it substandard.

[+Wax he/him]

The prose started to go down in book 4.

Jasnah talking about biases alluding to cognitive bias / confirmation bias made me cringe.

I do hope someone decides to look at this more in the next books.

[Nitpicking]

I agree, @Wax. Way too much very specific modern English slipped in. I was jarred by someone referring to "200 proof" alcohol. They developed the same test for the potency of liquor as Nineteenth Century England? (The term is older, but that's when the current meaning became part of the language. Of course, its more complicated than that ....)

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I agree, @Wax. Way too much very specific modern English slipped in. I was jarred by someone referring to "200 proof" alcohol. They developed the same test for the potency of liquor as Nineteenth Century England? (The term is older, but that's when the current meaning became part of the language. Of course, its more complicated than that ....)

Well, they'll have a way to refer to the concentration of alcohol. Given the state of science they are showing we must assume so. This is not an issue of consistency, but of style. Sanderson is not Tolkien. We should not expect a dictionary and grammar of Alethi and its derivation from Protoaltethovedenic.

Which style is better? In terms of politics Roshar has just left the age of feudalism. The next major releases will - in terms of technology - be nearly contemporary to us and Roshar is its time line only years away of being confrnted with 20th century technology. You can make a case that the style used from now on should be modern.

15 hours ago, Wax said:

Jasnah talking about biases alluding to cognitive bias / confirmation bias made me cringe.

Why? They have centuries of research and reasoning about logic and psychology. They must know the phenomenon of confirmation bias, at least among upper class women.

[rsnrsnrsn]

I agree with this bigtime, it's one of the things that can truly pull me out of high fantasy. However, while I thought the book had some of the weakest writing of the series so far, IMO I did think the overall storyline was arguably the best (besides maybe RoW).

[elihaun]

Agreed.  I was mostly engaged with the Adolin arc, but got mentally booted whenever Kaladin started trying to be a therapist.  

I have said it before, but I think Sanderson needs to slow down.  WoK took what, 3 versions before we got to the masterpiece that it is?  (WoK is a conglomeration of Dragonsteel prime, WoK prime, and it is to be assumed that there were revisions/rewrites).  by having a 6 month -1 year timeline on most books now a days, we lose ANY chance of there being rewrites or books just being completely scrapped/shelved.  When you are contractually obligated to get a book out... you got to get a book out.  by making his own publishing house/warehouse/ shipping center, Sanderson has kind of forced himself into keeping up the unrealistic standards.  If he does not write a book every 6 months, he will have to lay people off since there will be no books to ship, so he is going to feel forced to push a book out, even if it isn't ready.  

[S. Stormy she/her]

On 12/12/2024 at 11:50 AM, Ironeyes said:

I've never been on the "Brandon's prose is bad" train, but the prose in this book felt different from before. The book is engrossing--I read the entire thing in less than 36 hours--but every couple of chapters I would find myself ejected from the world of Roshar by an incongruously modern word or phrase. "I'm your ex" or "kick his ass" or "Do you want my therapy," plus Lift using "sh*t" as a swearword. Characters didn't speak like that in prior books. The distinctly in-world way they spoke was a positive feature of previous books and it kept the narrative and setting cohesive. I can't believe that the same Brandon who was embarrassed at having left the word "mooning" in a book where the world doesn't have a moon would be so lazy as to not think of turns of phrase that fit better with the world than modern American slang words that abruptly shift the tone from epic fantasy to YA mid-sentence. Before you ask, no, the lampshading on Lift's swearwords by saying she got it from Wit is insufficient. Lift makes up words. She could have used any random word there and nobody would have blinked an eye. 

Perhaps this is a feature of the editing team, and they're the ones who deserve my ire. 

Yeah, this bothers me, especially the swearword thing. As a person who avoids swearing when possible, I've always thought that Sanderson was pretty clean. The fact that he is going further away from clean and more towards "edgy" really, really bothers me. And not just in matters of swearing, either. 

Anyway, yeah, I think the italics and ellipses have gotten a little out of hand...

(see what i did there)

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 3/13/2025 at 12:20 PM, elihaun said:

by having a 6 month -1 year timeline on most books now a days, we lose ANY chance of there being rewrites or books just being completely scrapped/shelved.

I'd say that this could not happen anyway. The Lost Metal and the Secret Projects have already been published. I doubt the space age of the Cosmere would work if the story arc of the back half of SA were significantly altered. And the formation of Retribution and the time dilatation of Roshar was most likely necessary for the internal logic of anything to come. That is the issue of everything coming together.

 

17 hours ago, S. Stormy said:

Yeah, this bothers me, especially the swearword thing. As a person who avoids swearing when possible, I've always thought that Sanderson was pretty clean. The fact that he is going further away from clean and more towards "edgy" really, really bothers me. And not just in matters of swearing, either. 

Anyway, yeah, I think the italics and ellipses have gotten a little out of hand...

(see what i did there)

Again I have to mention the time jump. A year of constant war against an enemy that keeps coming back. Frankly, the books should have shown orgies and drug addiction. It was also very sanitized with respect to the behavior of the troops in the field.