For the first time, I am disappointed in the prose

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, Returned said:

I don't think that there is enough plot for RoW and WaT to become three books. WaT especially struggled to fill its pages, though its structure may have been responsible for a lot of that. Without enough plot for scenes, events, and character interactions to connect to we can't fix this problem no matter how long or short the book is. Plotlines only have so many spots for characters to reasonably connect to, it takes time and craft to make those connections, and too many plots that don't interact with each other (or at least, not sensibly or plausibly) causes many of the same issues. If the only reason Kaladin and Vasher are having a conversation in book A is to set up some event in book G, that's problematic.

I have to disgree. This was supposed to be Szeth's book. It wasn't. That much I think we can agree upon with something approaching consensus.

Now, you may think that his plot was weak in structure or that is it was neglected. I would see it the latter way. It could have been expanded on. In a way kills his family. Done in a few pages.
In Rhythm of War the plague plot was cut. I can understand the psychological reasoning, but in hindsight it was a mistake.

If you want to expand

• Sleepless planting bugs on Jasnah and Wit -> no consequences
• Jasnah dumps Wit and does nothing about no longer trusting him
• Odium sends a fleet - no naval response
• El was merely a plot device
• Dai-Gonarthis had more or less a cameo with some mysterious price to be paid in the future
• We finally see what Elsecalling does - in a few pages
• You move a whole people - in a few pages
• Felt takes Kalak prisoner -> no consequences
• Taln takes up arms again - off screen

The Thaylens switching sides could have used some more foreshadowing (Was that lost with the plague arc?).

How do the Spren collectively react? No show. And so on.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

After your list of proposals you said this

that is what I was reacting to.

No, I am sorry, but the proposals to cut stuff out deserve a closer look. That means that a serious proposal to implement them had to be made. So I took the most obvious stuff to cut. Only then could we seriously say whether this would have made the books better.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

That has nothing to do with Fourth Bridge, so I don't know why you mention it.

Something to deeply affect Kaladin is needed. Killing a close friend is the obvious alternative.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

That is basically what Shallan does at the end of WaT. All on Roshar presence is eliminated, no new Ghostbloods can arrive, and Shallan and Thaidakar have sort of cease fire.

But not a peace. Thaidakar cannot do anything to harm her anyway and he pays his debt. This is a truce, not a peace. The conflict will reengage as soon as the flow of time will have renormalized.

Another, better, way to end her plot line would have been to make clear to her that she cannot have her private war with a powerful organization while doomsday is on and she will have to accept a settlement. One of the weaknesses of SA is that if Shallan wants something, she gets it. Case in point: People still complain that Adolin faced no consequences for murder, but nobody talks about Shallan in that regard.

 

[Nitpicking]

@Oltux72, Shallan is not Adolin. She never swore to follow a code of honor, and among the Alethi Vorin, spymaster/chief assassin are female roles. Other than that: yeah.

You do seem to be arguing that Shallan could/should make peace with the Ghostbloods. The story doesn't allow that, IMO, because it would limit what Brandon can do leading up to the Space Wars era.

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, I am sorry, but the proposals to cut stuff out deserve a closer look. That means that a serious proposal to implement them had to be made. So I took the most obvious stuff to cut. Only then could we seriously say whether this would have made the books better.

And I countered with why it would not lead to better books in my opinion, or why it is basically pointless suggestion, being chapter or so very often.
You have yet to reply to most of those points.

Quote

Something to deeply affect Kaladin is needed. Killing a close friend is the obvious alternative.

I disagree.

1. Death of Teft already has place in narrative as the 'finishing blow' so to speak. If you move it to earlier point, what would you replace it with in the climax?
2. Kaladin isn't forced to take a step back because events of Heartstone evacuation deeply affected him, it is just culmination of his general trauma and depression, and his usage of Stormlight to effectively self-medicate. This is made clear by his breaking coming only when deprived of Stormlight via suppression fabrial. Hearstone then is both microcosm of the battles Kaladin fought over the last year and a reveal of what is effectively his addiction. Killing Teft accomplishes none of this.
3. Fourth Bridge and evacuation of Hearthstone isn't just about Kaladin, and so whatever it is replacing has to also play the part in those aspects, unless you are suggesting far-reaching changes to entire narrative. (i.e. Kaladin's family isn't in Tower, nor are we shown fabrial progress).

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But not a peace. Thaidakar cannot do anything to harm her anyway and he pays his debt. This is a truce, not a peace. The conflict will reengage as soon as the flow of time will have renormalized.

But the conflict is ended for the current time, i.e. next 10-15 years at minimum.

Conflict was always Rosharan Ghostbloods vs Radiants, and that is resolved. They are destroyed, they cannot get new agents, and their tasks (free and recruit BAM, get information on CS, get Stormlight off-world) are all failures.

WIder Thaidakar machinations will clearly continue to play a role, but that will be a new plotline, likely leading into Era 4.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Another, better, way to end her plot line would have been to make clear to her that she cannot have her private war with a powerful organization while doomsday is on and she will have to accept a settlement.

That is completely illogical way to end her plotline, considering that Ghostbloods were working against Radiants since Book one. Ghostbloods were an enemy of Radiants since get go, and never made any attempt at peace. In fact, they collaborated with Fused more readily than with Radiants.

Shallan likely would be fine with settlement, but Ghostbloods were clearly against that. I mean, she spends rather large amount of time bemoaning the fact that she will eventually have to choose, because Ghostbloods and Coalition Radiants simply cannot coexist.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 One of the weaknesses of SA is that if Shallan wants something, she gets it. Case in point: People still complain that Adolin faced no consequences for murder, but nobody talks about Shallan in that regard.

Not really no.

Shallan basically wants always one thing, to have peaceful life with her family, and she never gets that. In order

1. Her mother tries to kill her, and she accidentally kills her, driving her father to madness.
2. Shallan tries to keep up the mood of her brothers, and shield them wherever possible, mostly failing, culminating with her killing her father, which just causes further problems.
3. Shallan goes to Khabranth to again protect her family by stealing Soulcaster. She fails, though gets promise of possible protection. This however, leads her to problems crossing Ghostbloods.
4. Ghostbloods do protect her family, but also use this to threaten her.
5. Her bethroal to Adolin works out surprisingly well, but then she ends up in CR, with no way to get to Adolin in near-distant future.

Shallan get more powerful, but rarely she gets what she wants. And if she does, it often just leads to another problem.

Edited May 10, 2025 by therunner

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 minutes ago, therunner said:

And I countered with why it would not lead to better books in my opinion, or why it is basically pointless suggestion, being chapter or so very often.
You have yet to reply to most of those points.

I am not one of those who feel that the quality of the prose has decreased. Hence, if you want to know whether the effect was caused by bloat, you have to look at what shortening the book would entail.

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

And I countered with why it would not lead to better books in my opinion, or why it is basically pointless suggestion, being chapter or so very often.
You have yet to reply to most of those points.

I disagree.

1. Death of Teft already has place in narrative as the 'finishing blow' so to speak. If you move it to earlier point, what would you replace it with in the climax?

Good question. The default answer would be to kill Lirin.

And then you'd have to change more to which I cannot give default answers.

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

Conflict was always Rosharan Ghostbloods vs Radiants, and that is resolved. They are destroyed, they cannot get new agents, and their tasks (free BAM, get information on CS, get Stormlight off-world) are all failures.

No. The Ghostbloods did not care about the Radiants. They wanted something. Somebody got in their way.

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

Shallan get more powerful, but rarely she gets what she wants. And if she does, it often just leads to another problem.

1. an allowance
2. a pardon for her people
3. leadership of an order of Radiants
4. wife of a High Prince
5. magical powers
6. two spren
7. steals a mighty magical device without consequences
8. gets away with murder

Do I need to go on?

 

[therunner he/him]

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am not one of those who feel that the quality of the prose has decreased. Hence, if you want to know whether the effect was caused by bloat, you have to look at what shortening the book would entail.

Yes, however that also requires discussion.

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Good question. The default answer would be to kill Lirin.

And then you'd have to change more to which I cannot give default answers.

Exactly.

Basically any suggestion of cutting something leads into further changes. Which alone tells us that most of what is suggested be cut isn't 'bloat', because it does play a role in the plot of the book.

Could the same end be achieved more economically? Maybe, but so far none of suggestions would lead to that.

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. The Ghostbloods did not care about the Radiants. They wanted something. Somebody got in their way.

If I get in the way of robber in my house, they are by default my enemy.

Radiants are not at fault for the adversarial relationship, Ghostbloods are.

Again, they didn't even try to approach Radiants like they did Fused in RoW.

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

1. an allowance
2. a pardon for her people
3. leadership of an order of Radiants
4. wife of a High Prince
5. magical powers
6. two spren
7. steals a mighty magical device without consequences
8. gets away with murder

None of these are for free, and most of them have analogue for other characters.

1. Allowance for providing her services as scribe, and for improving Sebarials standing.
   • Should we also list among Kaladin's achievements the fact he gets paid?
2. A pardon that was provided because they saved her life.
   • You know, like Kaladin got Bridge crews freed because they helped saved Dalinar?
3. She isn't full leader of Lightweavers, just her cell. She explicitly does not want to grow them beyond a certain size. And she is leader because she was the first and is most experienced.
   • Again, do we complain that Kaladin is leader of Windrunners? 
4. Wife of High Prince. Political machination of Jasnah to attach Kholin name to Radiants. And the title means nearly nothing, now that Kholinar is fully lost. She is wife to high prince in exile.
   • Kaladin is heir to Urithiru, nuff said.
5. Magical powers...really? That is a problem?
6. Two spren
   • Which is benefit how? So far it didn't lead to appreciable change, outside of wielding shield one,two times.
7. You mean soulcaster? Because she failed at that and got caught basically immediately. Only being Lightweaver saved her.
8. ...like, who doesn't in this series? Dalinar got away with genocide.

Frankly this just seems like you don't like Shallan, because most of these things are not things she wants., and they are common protagonist stuff. You could make a list like that for Kaladin:

1. Becomes a soldier and squad leader at ~18.
2. Kills full Shardbearer with a spear.
3. Magical powers
4. Spren nobility is his spren
5. Frees all Bridge crews
6. Kills brother of one of his fellow Radiants without consequences.
7. Becomes leader of the largest Radiants Order.
8. Becomes heir to Urithiru.
9. Becomes Herald.

Do I need to go on?

Edited May 11, 2025 by therunner

[Nitpicking]

In the most recent Shardcast (as I write this), Brandon himself says he went too far with the modern language.

[Born of Mist He/Him]

What does "prose" mean? 

[Treamayne]

27 minutes ago, Born of Mist said:

What does "prose" mean? 

BLUF: It's the umbrella term for how an author tells the story (methods and use of foreshadowing, language, sentance structure, descriptive style, dialog style, etc.)

 

Wiktionary:

Quote

prose (usually uncountable, plural proses)

1. Language, particularly written language, not intended as poetry. quotations ▼

Though known mostly for her prose, she also produced a small body of excellent poems.

From the perspective of an author's craft - Wikipedia:

Quote

Prose

Prose is language that follows the natural flow or rhythm of speech, ordinary grammatical structures, or, in writing, typical conventions and formatting. Thus, prose ranges from informal speaking to formal academic writing. Prose differs most notably from poetry, which follows some type of intentional, contrived, artistic structure.

<snip>

Prose usually lacks the more formal metrical structure of the verses found in traditional poetry. It comprises full grammatical sentences (other than in stream of consciousness narrative), and paragraphs, whereas poetry often involves a metrical or rhyming scheme. Some works of prose make use of rhythm and verbal music. Verse is normally more systematic or formulaic, while prose is closer to both ordinary, and conversational speech.

<snip>

American novelist Truman Capote, in an interview, commented as follows on prose style:

• I believe a story can be wrecked by a faulty rhythm in a sentence— especially if it occurs toward the end—or a mistake in paragraphing, even punctuation. Henry James is the maestro of the semicolon. Hemingway is a first-rate paragrapher. From the point of view of ear, Virginia Woolf never wrote a bad sentence. I don't mean to imply that I successfully practice what I preach. I try, that's all.

<snip>

Many types of prose exist, which include those used in works of nonfiction, prose poem, alliterative prose and prose fiction.

• Purple prose – is prose that is so extravagant, ornate, or flowery as to break the flow and draw excessive attention to itself.

Hope that helps

[Born of Mist He/Him]

Thanks