Kaladin and Chana implications

[Nef]

So with Kaladin and Chana being in the same place and time, are we finally going to get the difficult conversation that deals with Kaladin having killed Helaran (i.e. Chana's son)

Can see that being rather awkward if Chana opens up to Kaladin while he's doing his therapist work.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

When book 6 comes out, we will find out that Kal and chana have dealt with it offscreen, like Brandon always does with awkward conversations.

Like I have not forgotten that Kal's explanation of Moash's attempted assassination of elhokar would have to be a very condensed version. 

And we never got to see Adolin and Renarin finding out about Evi. Instead, skip to one year later so that they have dealt with it

Brandon always skips drama

[consequentlyuseful]

On this note, this stood out to me in Chapter 93. Who is the bastard? Am I forgetting something obvious or is this there to imply one of the kids isn't Chana's?

Quote

The Skybreaker … Dreder … set aside the box. “All but your husband’s bastard bear a terrible burden, including predispositions inherited from you. Nale says you were warned it would happen. Chana … killing the child now will be a mercy.”

Edited December 10, 2024 by consequentlyuseful

[boonboon]

So with Kaladin and Shallan being in the same place and time, are we...
 

Quote

Her brothers huddled in here. All but Helaran, the eldest, whom Kaladin would someday kill.

That's it? Oh, okay.

[Nef]

47 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

When book 6 comes out, we will find out that Kal and chana have dealt with it offscreen, like Brandon always does with awkward conversations.

Like I have not forgotten that Kal's explanation of Moash's attempted assassination of elhokar would have to be a very condensed version. 

And we never got to see Adolin and Renarin finding out about Evi. Instead, skip to one year later so that they have dealt with it

Brandon always skips drama

After the Chana revelation, I think it it made sense to not spend the "dealing with Helaran's death" plot point without Chana being on the scene. It might overly optimistic, but I can see the plot point being unavoidable now, given Kaladin is ostensibly there to provide therapy for the Heralds.

[Moirne she/her]

4 hours ago, consequentlyuseful said:

On this note, this stood out to me in Chapter 93. Who is the bastard? Am I forgetting something obvious or is this there to imply one of the kids isn't Chana's?

I definitely took this to mean one of the kids wasn’t Chana’s, and I think it’s Helaran (both because he’s the oldest, maybe even conceived before Chana and Lin’s marriage, and seemingly the most mentally stable).

[Diomedes]

8 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Brandon always skips drama

Also Jasnah reacting to Shallan having almost joined the Ghostbloods, who repeatedly tried to assassinate her. I would have loved to see that scene..   

[boolamoo]

For a second I thought the thread was gonna be Kaladin's second chance at a redhead.

[teknopathetic he/him]

16 hours ago, Nef said:

So with Kaladin and Chana being in the same place and time, are we finally going to get the difficult conversation that deals with Kaladin having killed Helaran (i.e. Chana's son)

Can see that being rather awkward if Chana opens up to Kaladin while he's doing his therapist work.

Chana’s feelings on Heleran may be complex seeing as he is likely a bastard. But learning what Shallan is will be interesting. Shallan has a parent who is technically a spren, so what does that mean for her identity? And is there any truth at all to what Chana’s plan was. It didn’t work? But could it have worked with some twists? Would it have worked if Shallan died before Chana? 

Edited December 10, 2024 by teknopathetic

[earthexile]

I think all of the Heralds are likely to be more understanding of a mortal man's troubles and mistakes than the average person. They've all killed a *lot* of people. Maybe tens of thousands each with their own hands and Surges. They know what it means to be drafted. 

Chana was nearly ready to ice her own daughter for being an up-and-coming threat, surely she'd understand someone killing a fully grown Shardbearer he didn't know on a battlefield. 

[BinarySecond]

More difficult conversation for Kal and Shallan

 

"You stole my boots so I became your step dad"

[+robardin he/him]

19 hours ago, Nef said:

So with Kaladin and Chana being in the same place and time, are we finally going to get the difficult conversation that deals with Kaladin having killed Helaran (i.e. Chana's son)

Can see that being rather awkward if Chana opens up to Kaladin while he's doing his therapist work.

Is Heleran Chana's son? There was mention of a stepson, when Shallan finally remembered what really happened and who said what on that day:

After her mother talked to Nale by seon box, one brought by Dreder the Skybreaker, who would then heal easily from Lin Davar's attack... He said to her, regarding her family and Shallan specifically, "All but your husband's bastard bear a terrible burden, including predispositions inherited from you. Nale says you were warned it would happen."

So which of Shallan's brothers is "Lin Davar's bastard" who would not have inherited "predispositions" (presumably to Radiance) from the Herald Chana being their mother?

Also, if Nale knew Shallan had bonded a Cryptic (I'm sure Chana would have recognized the spren... Plus she had even named Shallan after Shalash, for Ado's sake), an even lost a Skybreaker in Dreder he had just been talking to (who was at least a squire who could draw in Stormlight to heal -- though he was experienced enough that he sighed that he hated it when they "had" to kill children in their hunt for nascent Radiants, and Nale trusted to delegate the duty to him), ... why hadn't he come back to finish the job?

And how did they expect to kill a Surgebinder with just a regular knife (even if they hadn't realized Shallan had reached the Third Ideal, they definitely know she can heal with Stormlight just like Dreder just did)?

[DiePie]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Also, if Nale knew Shallan had bonded a Cryptic (I'm sure Chana would have recognized the spren... Plus she had even named Shallan after Shalash, for Ado's sake), an even lost a Skybreaker in Dreder he had just been talking to (who was at least a squire who could draw in Stormlight to heal -- though he was experienced enough that he sighed that he hated it when they "had" to kill children in their hunt for nascent Radiants, and Nale trusted to delegate the duty to him), ... why hadn't he come back to finish the job?

I think it's implied in one of the earlier books that Nale assumed Heleran was the budding Radiant, which is why he got heleran bonded to a Highspren. Based on that, I would assume the Skybreaker in the flashback was sent there to investigate, and was expected to report back before taking further action. Seeing that the Radiant they detected was actually a small child, he convinced Chana to kill her instead (deciding that he would probably be sent back to deal with her anyways), and then was killed by Shallan before he could really fight back. Nale, knowing only that lord Davar (a known alcoholic with rage issues) killed both Chana and the Skybreaker, believing they had an affair. A good story, besides for the herald Chana being killed by some random Veden noble. So he defaults to his hunch (as he is not particularly introspective at this point in the story), and recruits Heleran.

[Fyodor32768]

I understood Heleran to be the bastard referred to by Nale, since he is the only one who doesn't have some kind of mental health type issue (at least that we're aware of).

[+robardin he/him]

12 hours ago, DiePie said:

I think it's implied in one of the earlier books that Nale assumed Heleran was the budding Radiant, which is why he got heleran bonded to a Highspren. Based on that, I would assume the Skybreaker in the flashback was sent there to investigate, and was expected to report back before taking further action. Seeing that the Radiant they detected was actually a small child, he convinced Chana to kill her instead (deciding that he would probably be sent back to deal with her anyways), and then was killed by Shallan before he could really fight back. Nale, knowing only that lord Davar (a known alcoholic with rage issues) killed both Chana and the Skybreaker, believing they had an affair. A good story, besides for the herald Chana being killed by some random Veden noble. So he defaults to his hunch (as he is not particularly introspective at this point in the story), and recruits Heleran.

A good theory, but unless Shallan was STILL summoning up false memories, Nalan specified Shallan by name as the one Dreder had been sent to kill, if Chana couldn't manage to do it herself. (I suppose letting Chana do it instead of him was a kind of courtesy to a fellow Herald?)

Quote

"He loves me, Nale," Mother growled. "I have a family."

"And where has that led you?" the voice said, calm. "To this? And the child? What of Shallan?"

Mother turned away. Shallan walked between them, looking from one to the other.

"She is one of them," Mother said.

"Yes," Nale said. "Which means..."

Mother didn't respond.

"Dreder will kill her if you do not," said Nale.

 

[Isilel]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

. why hadn't he come back to finish the job?

 

I think that it was hinted in  "Edgedancer" that Nale had some method of locating a vague area where a Radiant could be found and then used investigation and deduction to pinpoint who it was, as well as a legal pretext for killing them.

When Shallan broke her Oaths, whatever "signal" that led him to the Radiants must have disappeared from her. For all we know, he did come to finish the job, only to discover that she was no longer Radiant and go away. It probably happened when Shallan was catatonic, so she is genuinely unaware.

It is a bit odd how attached all the kids, including Heleran, were to Chana, though, given her problems. Maybe she used to be genuinely better and started to rapidly deteriorate in the last years before her death? And she had apparently fully adopted Helaran, so he may have loved her for it? 

[+robardin he/him]

48 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I think that it was hinted in "Edgedancer" that Nale had some method of locating a vague area where a Radiant could be found and then used investigation and deduction to pinpoint who it was, as well as a legal pretext for killing them.

When Shallan broke her Oaths, whatever "signal" that led him to the Radiants must have disappeared from her. For all we know, he did come to finish the job, only to discover that she was no longer Radiant and go away. It probably happened when Shallan was catatonic, so she is genuinely unaware.

It is a bit odd how attached all the kids, including Heleran, were to Chana, though, given her problems. Maybe she used to be genuinely better and started to rapidly deteriorate in the last years before her death? And she had apparently fully adopted Helaran, so he may have loved her for it?

Ahhh, I like this explanation. Makes perfect sense.

Which makes you wonder why Nale was killing all those nascent Radiants like Ym, instead of somehow forcing them to forswear their Oaths. I guess that isn't something that can be done under duress, like it has to come "from the heart"?

Though if Sigzil could forswear his bond to Vienta with no other motive than to save her from being destroyed with anti-Stormlight, you'd think Shallan could have done it to save herSELF from being destroyed with Nalan's Shardblade.

As for Chana being a good mother to her kids and the unnamed adoptive bastard (presumed to be Heleran), she was apparently quite deep in the role of a Veden lighteyed woman, with the Vorin safehand and feminine arts thing going on and everything (though she reverted to being "Chana the tough bodyguard" with not even a safehand glove when talking to Nale, causing Dreder to flinch and hide behind the seon when she got mad, LOL).

One wonders what her game plan was another 20 years or so down the line when she didn't age while Lin Davar and their kids did... Huh. I guess that was part of being a Crazy Herald, eh?

It also raises the question as to whether or not any of the other Heralds went a-multiplyin' over the past several thousand years. Nale refers to Chana blending in with a mortal family as a mother as an "unreasonable endeavor" that she was propagating on "a dupe", and that they (Nale and likely Ishar, at a minimum) knew or suspected any children born of them would result in "predispositions".

Even so, it's hard to believe that across nine Heralds, over what is it, four thousand years?, another one wouldn't have done something similar (male or female), if this was even Chana's first time on this ride. (Presumably it was, as Nale wouldn't have missed the chance to tell her she was making the same mistake again, or somesuch.)

Edited December 11, 2024 by robardin

[Forged Herald]

35 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ahhh, I like this explanation. Makes perfect sense.

Which makes you wonder why Nale was killing all those nascent Radiants like Ym, instead of somehow forcing them to forswear their Oaths. I guess that isn't something that can be done under duress, like it has to come "from the heart"?

Though if Sigzil could forswear his bond to Vienta with no other motive than to save her from being destroyed with anti-Stormlight, you'd think Shallan could have done it to save herSELF from being destroyed with Nalan's Shardblade.

As for Chana being a good mother to her kids and the unnamed adoptive bastard (presumed to be Heleran), she was apparently quite deep in the role of a Veden lighteyed woman, with the Vorin safehand and feminine arts thing going on and everything (though she reverted to being "Chana the tough bodyguard" with not even a safehand glove when talking to Nale, causing Dreder to flinch and hide behind the seon when she got mad, LOL).

One wonders what her game plan was another 20 years or so down the line when she didn't age while Lin Davar and their kids did... Huh. I guess that was part of being a Crazy Herald, eh?

It also raises the question as to whether or not any of the other Heralds went a-multiplyin' over the past several thousand years. Nale refers to Chana blending in with a mortal family as a mother as an "unreasonable endeavor" that she was propagating on "a dupe", and that they (Nale and likely Ishar, at a minimum) knew or suspected any children born of them would result in "predispositions".

Even so, it's hard to believe that across nine Heralds, over what is it, four thousand years?, another one wouldn't have done something similar (male or female), if this was even Chana's first time on this ride. (Presumably it was, as Nale wouldn't have missed the chance to tell her she was making the same mistake again, or somesuch.)

How would forcing them to forswear their Oaths help?

Nale looks for a legal excuse to execute them, forswearing their Oaths doesn't make them innocent of the obscure crime Nale finds to execute them.

[+robardin he/him]

11 minutes ago, Forged Herald said:

How would forcing them to forswear their Oaths help?

Nale looks for a legal excuse to execute them, forswearing their Oaths doesn't make them innocent of the obscure crime Nale finds to execute them.

Oooh good point.

He dug up a reason to kill Ym and that was for poisoning a woman at some point in his youth ("I had to look long and hard to find your transgression...")

Meanwhile, the crime he had on Shallan was "the Veden Voidcraft Act, to punish those who seek such [Surgebinding] powers". Which, if she broke her spren bond, would render her clear of those charges (I suppose the crime was no longer punishable by death for having had such powers in the past, but no longer).

[The Sovereign]

23 hours ago, boolamoo said:

For a second I thought the thread was gonna be Kaladin's second chance at a redhead.

[+robardin he/him]

21 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

More difficult conversation for Kal and Shallan

 

"You stole my boots so I became your step dad"

Not difficult at all!

A box is sent to Shallan one day, with a note. "TO SHALLAN: These boots were made for knockin'. Thought you should know. Love, Kal."

Wondering how this package reached her in Shadesmar, she opened the box to find a pair of sturdy boots. However, while they were clearly too small for what she remembered being Kaladin's size (that she had to stuff socks into the toes in order to wear), they also were not quite HER size.  In fact, they weren't brand new boots, either.

She turned them over in her hands, and noticed a name written on one of the heels: CHANA.

And on the other, in a different handwriting and in lowercase: "ur mom."

What? Oh... NO... Or... Yay?

[ScavellTane]

So which brother is the bastard? Or did I not heard that correctly? got it on audiobook so I don't really know where to look.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

52 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

So which brother is the bastard? Or did I not heard that correctly? got it on audiobook so I don't really know where to look.

Most likely Heleran since he was the only one who didn't seem have some sort of clear supernatural mental illness like the rest of them.

On 12/10/2024 at 2:50 AM, consequentlyuseful said:

The Skybreaker … Dreder … set aside the box. “All but your husband’s bastard bear a terrible burden, including predispositions inherited from you. Nale says you were warned it would happen. Chana … killing the child now will be a mercy.”

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

On 12/11/2024 at 6:48 AM, BinarySecond said:

"You stole my boots so I became your step dad"

Formless when this happens:

Spoiler

(I know formless is dead, but if she wasn't, at least this time her parent may actually put up a fight)

(no spoiler, just don't want to take up lots of space with an image)

[+robardin he/him]

39 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Most likely Heleran since he was the only one who didn't seem have some sort of clear supernatural mental illness like the rest of them.

I would say it's most likely because it would make more sense for all of his children with Chana (we never did learn her "cover name" with Lin) to be in a row, and Heleran was the eldest.

If another of Shallan's brothers, all older than her, were the bastard, that would mean he cheated on Chana while married to her (versus begetting and taking responsibility for a child out of wedlock before meeting her), and I suspect that would not have gone well for him.

Edited December 12, 2024 by robardin