Shallan as a spy.... Still feels contrived

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Practically from WoR, i haven't really bought Shallan as much of a spy at all. She just pretends to be Veil, a streetwise woman, but you can't really pretend your way into knowing people right?

Oathbringer explores this with Kholinar, but she also develops her first lightweaver squires and creates the Unseen Court, who follow her lead, but she still very much feels like she is winging it.

A year later, In RoW the the lightweavers are actual spies? Like trained enough to effective. 

It is clear as day that the Unseen Court is the Rosharan Worldhopping Organisation of the future. I am still surprised that Shallan is anywhere smart enough to lead such an Organisation

 

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Practically from WoR, i haven't really bought Shallan as much of a spy at all. She just pretends to be Veil, a streetwise woman, but you can't really pretend your way into knowing people right?

Oathbringer explores this with Kholinar, but she also develops her first lightweaver squires and creates the Unseen Court, who follow her lead, but she still very much feels like she is winging it.

A year later, In RoW the the lightweavers are actual spies? Like trained enough to effective. 

It is clear as day that the Unseen Court is the Rosharan Worldhopping Organisation of the future. I am still surprised that Shallan is anywhere smart enough to lead such an Organisation

 

Lot can happen new year.  Shallan had a lot of natural talent for spying that and super powers can get you far. Especially, if you know how to delegate. Remember she has at least one trained spy with her. 
not to mention that until recently ghost bloods were helping her. 
 

Besides you probably don’t join the court unless you have some ability with spying.

[earthexile]

It seems to be the case that a Lightweaver like Shallan can, somehow, use their art to genuinely change things about themselves for the purpose of an illusion. Maybe it's a Connection or Identity thing, but we've seen hints that she's reaching into the mystical to make her art. She designs Veil to be an experienced con artist, and somehow she is, even though Shallan at that point isn't. (Although she kind of is. She did rob Jasnah.)

[Moirne she/her]

1 hour ago, earthexile said:

It seems to be the case that a Lightweaver like Shallan can, somehow, use their art to genuinely change things about themselves for the purpose of an illusion. Maybe it's a Connection or Identity thing, but we've seen hints that she's reaching into the mystical to make her art. She designs Veil to be an experienced con artist, and somehow she is, even though Shallan at that point isn't. (Although she kind of is. She did rob Jasnah.)

Reminds me of soulstamping - she’s giving herself a new past, in a way.

[morcey2]

The possible Lightweaving and SR effects aside, I don't think Shallan being a spy is any more contrived than Kaladin and Bridge 4 suddenly becoming bodyguards.  There is some overlap, but being a bodyguard is very different from being a soldier.  There is some overlap in terms of weapons skills and fighting, but ever there things are different.  The mindset of thinking about threats is totally different between the two. 

Now, if the Lightweaving and SR effects hinted at above help Shallan with spyification, maybe the same thing is happening to Kaladin with his Ideals as a windrunner and his guardification.

[Subvisual Haze]

The plot has to give her something to keep her busy.

[teknopathetic he/him]

One thing I forget is that she did take down the Son‘s of Honour over a time period of a year or something like that. She has experience. It’s just all off screen. We didn’t see them grow 

Edited November 6, 2024 by teknopathetic

[king of nowhere]

If you notice her first experiences, she would have died a half dozen times without her powers.

So, at first she just leveraged stormlight, and then she gained experience

[drunkenbotanist]

To me I'm actually super convinced by Shallan as a spy, spy kind of things have been all that she's done throughout the books. She's naturally gifted at it I think to a similar to degree as Kaladin is with the spear.

The Veil is the entrance to the library in Karbranth, which has always been where I thought Veil as a name came from. Because she entered there under false pretenses to steal Jasnah's soulcaster...and succeeded. However, she was conflicted because she really fell in love with scholarship.

What felt like more of a character shift to me was Shallan deciding not to run for backup and summoning Testament as a shield and going to confront them. 

 

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

It should also be noted that Shallan had some training with Tyn before becoming a spy. While this doesn't account for all of her skill, it certainly gave her a head start.

[listerfeend]

So, I think this WoB might be shedding some light on what is going on with Shallan
 

Quote

Questioner

In Stormlight, with Kaladin and his brother Tien, is there a connection or a reason why, whenever his brother finds a rock, that keeps coming up several times?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So, there's a couple themes going on here. One is just the subtle theme that Tien tends to find beauty in things that Kaladin finds dull. That's, of course, kind of the metaphor. But Tien also was a budding Lightweaver, and he saw color and light a little bit differently than other people did. And he has the same general effect that you'll see Shallan having on people, which is how the Lightweaver views you influences a little bit more how your mood is, and things like that... And there is a magical element to that, as well. There's both a metaphoric reason and an in-world reason.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

What Brandon says here is that how a Lightweaver perceives people influences their mood, but, crucially, also "things like that". I have had a theory for a while that Shallan's alters are Connections to versions of Shallan that could have been. To me, it seems contrived that Shallan, at the age of, what? 10, was somehow a talented spy or anything useful to an organization like the Ghostbloods, as some people on these forums seem to suggest. However, it does seem reasonable that she was being groomed by the Ghostbloods, for one reason or another. Maybe that is because mom is actually a Herald, maybe it had something to do with cultivating an agent from a political house that they were also grooming to gain more influence... there are a number of reasons I can come up with for the GB's to want to groom and recruit an asset like a young Shallan, but I can't really come up with any good reasons that Shallan would have learned anything useful from them as a child. 

I bring all that up because, if Shallan's Alters are, in fact, formed by Connections to "potential" Shallan's (I'm thinking something similar to how Malatium, the mythical Eleventh Metal, worked, showing Vin a different version of the Lord Ruler, a version that "could have been"), then Veil would then become a version of Shallan that was fully recruited into the GB's. Veil would have skills in spy craft that Shallan doesn't have. Shallan is able to use the same perception tricks that work on other people, on herself, and they are expanded beyond what a normal Lightweaver might be able to produce, due to her double bonding. 

This also works for things that Shallan has done with Surgebinding, through Radiant, such as the Substantiation we saw in previous chapters. 

Edited November 5, 2024 by listerfeend

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:04 AM, listerfeend said:

bring all that up because, if Shallan's Alters are, in fact, formed by Connections to "potential" Shallan's (I'm thinking something similar to how Malatium, the mythical Eleventh Metal, worked, showing Vin a different version of the Lord Ruler, a version that "could have been"), then Veil would then become a version of Shallan that was fully recruited into the GB's.

I like this idea.  
We can see spy like behavior early on in Shallan's flashbacks, how often she listen in on her father, or others, and "keeps and eye" on what her brothers are up too. 
In her passing of notes to arrange meetings. Her art also makes her good at observation.


 

[coolsnow7]

On 11/4/2024 at 3:29 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

I am still surprised that Shallan is anywhere smart enough to lead such an Organisation

I mean the books have made clear that Shallan is brilliant intellectually. I thought your other points about her lack of experience were more reasonable.

I think this points to Shallan having a more interesting (and longer, in terms of years) past than she’s currently aware of. There are a lot of theories and speculation about what lines like “Shallan was the biggest lie of all” and such mean, and I am partial to many of them - but the point is that I think there’s a critical mass of evidence that Shallan’s past involved building some of these skills that she’s forgotten. (For example, Radiant is somehow a competent fighter despite Shallan never having trained to fight - how did that happen?) And there’s reason to speculate that she’s a lot older than 16 (or whatever the number is as of the latest books) years old now.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

(For example, Radiant is somehow a competent fighter despite Shallan never having trained to fight - how did that happen?)

shallan trained for a full year with adolin (the break between stormlight 3 and 4), she learned to fight competently there.

[therunner he/him]

On 11/5/2024 at 2:20 AM, earthexile said:

It seems to be the case that a Lightweaver like Shallan can, somehow, use their art to genuinely change things about themselves for the purpose of an illusion. Maybe it's a Connection or Identity thing, but we've seen hints that she's reaching into the mystical to make her art. She designs Veil to be an experienced con artist, and somehow she is, even though Shallan at that point isn't. (Although she kind of is. She did rob Jasnah.)

There is a WoB that Ligthweaving does have elements of Cognitive and Spiritual as well

Quote

Questioner

Lightweaving on Roshar, is it more of a Physical thing or Cognitive Realm thing?

Brandon Sanderson

Lightweaving? I would say it's a hybrid between the two.

Questioner

So there's a Physical effect, but also a Cognitive component to that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and then even a little bit of a Spiritual component. Lightweaving tends to involve, I'd say it's mostly Physical. Mostly you're not changing what someone's mind is, but you're actually changing light. Mostly Physical, but Lightweaving in particular has a lot like- you'll see weird things happening with Lightweaving on occasion, that are kind of a little bit of Cognitive and Spiritual influence that's happening. So keep your eyes on that. Yeah, I would say, if you're asking is light actually being changed yes, it is.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

So I think it is likely that when she is changing into her Alters through Lightweaving, she is also effectively making them more 'true'. Sort of like different/more limited version of soul stamping.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 11/4/2024 at 3:29 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Practically from WoR, i haven't really bought Shallan as much of a spy at all. She just pretends to be Veil, a streetwise woman, but you can't really pretend your way into knowing people right?

Oathbringer explores this with Kholinar, but she also develops her first lightweaver squires and creates the Unseen Court, who follow her lead, but she still very much feels like she is winging it.

A year later, In RoW the the lightweavers are actual spies? Like trained enough to effective. 

It is clear as day that the Unseen Court is the Rosharan Worldhopping Organisation of the future. I am still surprised that Shallan is anywhere smart enough to lead such an Organisation

 

"Contrived" is a bit of a harsh description in my opinion, but I think I agree with your overarching sentiment...

Somethings that are vitally important to keep in mind though are:

1. In war, you use the soldiers that you have available, and those are very rarely the soldiers that you "wish" that you had available; the ranks of the Radiants are made up of a lot of really good and fine people...and also recovering drug-addicts, people with what would normally be considsred disqualifying mental illnesses, and barely-reformed criminals working together out of necessity. From this perspective, it makes total sense to me that Shallan, being the first lightweaver, was just defacto field-promoted to the rank of super-spy by the winds of necessity.

2. Shallan's targets for espionage are, themselves, usually putting in tremendous effort to remain hidden and off-screen as much as possible, and also are very interested from a long-term incentive standpoint in recruiting her. The circumstances that she's placed in throughout the books creates a sort of natural plot-armor for her. If she did what she routinely does in a world at peace, where Lightweavers were common, against established Rosharn nobles/princes who already can't remain hidden, she would probably be hunted and killed very quickly and easily in retaliation in my opinion. You gotta take the whole picture into account for Shallan to make any kind of sense.

3. She pretty much is just winging it the whole time I think, yeah. That makes it very difficult to counter her meaningfully; chaos is a very powerful weapon or tool in the right hands. Everybody is pretty much always on their backfoot trying to deal with her shenanigans and experimenting live when trying to address her. This makes her feats subject to poor repeatability, but also creates a big believability allowance for her getting away with them alive in context.

Also, I'm just vert biased and sympathetic to her character, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Synapticsam]

Shallan has arguably been doing intrigue her entire life, even if we ignore any speculation about what she was up to as a kid radiant surrounded by major Rosharan players.  

She grew up hiding who she was from an abusive, pretending to be his perfect daughter.  All while sneaking off behind his back to support her brothers.  Support in the form of providing them exactly the things they needed in order to overcome their various issues.  She clearly was spying on them in some capacity, all while hiding from her father's disapproval.  

The next thing we see from Shallan after she kills her dad is a family intrigue where they pretend that her dad isn't dead and the estate is doing fine. A ruse exclusively maintained by her.  Then she managed to track the princess of Alethkar from city to city, a woman who can literally teleport (though admittedly she probably wasn't doing that).

Shallan thinks she doesn't have experience because she has tons of imposter syndrome and attributes all of her skills and experience to other personalities.  Veil has skills because Shallan has skills.  Radiant is a good leader because Shallan is good at leading people.  

[Blightsong he/him]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:29 PM, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Practically from WoR, i haven't really bought Shallan as much of a spy at all. She just pretends to be Veil, a streetwise woman, but you can't really pretend your way into knowing people right?

Oathbringer explores this with Kholinar, but she also develops her first lightweaver squires and creates the Unseen Court, who follow her lead, but she still very much feels like she is winging it.

A year later, In RoW the the lightweavers are actual spies? Like trained enough to effective. 

It is clear as day that the Unseen Court is the Rosharan Worldhopping Organisation of the future. I am still surprised that Shallan is anywhere smart enough to lead such an Organisation

 

It makes sense to me. In my experience, the best liars are people who needed to do so to survive their childhood. Real life spies aren’t James Bond super soldiers. They’re more commonly actors and bureaucrats. Shallan is both.