Is Shallan pregnant?

[GroundPetrel]

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah I'm kinda expecting us to get a cliche "Adolin dies and Shallan finds out she's carrying his child". I hope it doesn't go down like that, but it's where the signs seem to point right now IMO.

I'm on the opposite tack.  Everybody says "oh Adolin has all these death flags" but we're talking about a dude who needs to learn how to take care of himself after being everybody else's emotional support pet all his life, potentially becoming a father, not long after the likely resolution of his metric ton of daddy issues. 

That's an interesting angle that I think a lot of people would like to see and I don't doubt that Brandon has considered it.  Plus, people are likely expecting a foreshadowed death after TLM.  Subverting it here would work well imo. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

I'm on the opposite tack.  Everybody says "oh Adolin has all these death flags" but we're talking about a dude who needs to learn how to take care of himself after being everybody else's emotional support pet all his life, potentially becoming a father, not long after the likely resolution of his metric ton of daddy issues.

That's an interesting angle that I think a lot of people would like to see and I don't doubt that Brandon has considered it.  Plus, people are likely expecting a foreshadowed death after TLM.  Subverting it here would work well imo. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want him to die, I think it sounds likely to be a cheap and lazy way to pull out an emotional reaction from readers at the cost of a lot of interesting narrative potential unless he has a twist on it I can't currently imagine in store. But Brandon has a trend of doing that in... I think every single series finale he's ever written (I might be forgetting some), so that doesn't really rule out it happening.

[Philomath she/her]

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

But he won't have the time to heal generational trauma. He will only have time to say or think it. And I just don't see how him thinking or saying it can bring anything valuable to his or someone else's arc.

In book 5 sure there isn’t lots of time. But if he survives, he has the whole time skip of raising his kid(s) and we could see the healing in the back half. 

[Slayd_07]

8 hours ago, Sedside said:

I think that this Shallan pregnancy stuff is reading too much into it. I just don't see a point in making her pregnant now, I don't see how it can influence the narrative. If Adolin survives through this book, why do it now? There are 8 days left before the timeskip, why can't she get pregnant in, say, a month? What will it change? Just to add some more 'happy couple' scenes? In my opinion, there are already plenty of them in each of the books since WoR, I would definitely prefer this page space to be spent on something I haven't read enough yet. Like, maybe, happy Kaladin?

For the sake of pure analytical approach we can look at the other options. We can imagine one of them not to be happy to hear these news, but it looks like an unnecessary drama and not very Brandon thing to do? If Adolin dies on the good side and Shallan is left with his child, it looks too cliche. If Adolin dies on the dark side, it looks like even more drama and will probably require Shallan and her kid to have a decent amount of character development in back 5, which is not what is intended, I suppose. If Adolin joins the dark side and survives, so if he is a villain in back 5 and there is his child among the good guys, it could be interesting, but again too tropey and dramatic? He is Kholin, not Skywalker. And if they both join the dark side... Well, I don't think it would be a good message for the audience doing that with Shallan's character. Again, I'm looking at all of the options, regardless of how possible or preferable they are, and I don't see her pregnancy enhancing any of them.

Exactly! Shallan being pregnant would just be cheap and tropey. Also, whether she is or isn't right now is completely irrelevant unless Adolin dies and she survives him, and the whole "Male character dies, is survived by love interest who secretly got pregnant right before he dies!" trope is super lame. 

[The Sovereign]

14 minutes ago, Slayd_07 said:

Exactly! Shallan being pregnant would just be cheap and tropey. Also, whether she is or isn't right now is completely irrelevant unless Adolin dies and she survives him, and the whole "Male character dies, is survived by love interest who secretly got pregnant right before he dies!" trope is super lame. 

I see what you are saying, but it wouldn't be a secret pregnancy... They are a young married sexually active couple on a planet without birth control. Also it should be noted that Adolin is a Highprince, he has a duty to have an heir. So to double down, it wouldn't be a secret pregnancy, it would be an expected one. I do agree though that the Adolin dying and leaving a widowed pregnant Shallan trope would be lackluster. Which is part of why I don't think that is what is going to happen. I would guess Shallan is pregnant and both will survive SL5.

[the_archduke]

Plus we already have Orodin and Gavinor starting the next generation.  Shallan and Adolin's having kids is a natural expansion of that.  And their hair is going to be awesome, as Shallan pointed out all the way back in Words of Radiance. 

[Sedside she/her]

1 hour ago, Philomath said:

In book 5 sure there isn’t lots of time. But if he survives, he has the whole time skip of raising his kid(s) and we could see the healing in the back half. 

Yeah, but it doesn't answer my question, what her pregnancy would add to the book 5 narrative. As you say, there will be plenty of time for her to get pregnant during the time skip, so I just don't see it necessary to make her pregnant right now, other for the drama, in case he dies, or for some 'happy couple' moments, which, in my opinion, we've already had enough in previous books and in the beginning of this one as well. Making Shallan pregnant now just to let Adolin say something like 'oh, Shallan, I'm so happy, I will definitely be a better father than Dalinar!' and then the curtains close, is just... meh.

[Confused]

Both Adolin and Shallan die (after she gives birth) and Grandma Chana raises two future Bondsmiths! Grandpa Daddy-M helps...

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Sedside said:

I think that this Shallan pregnancy stuff is reading too much into it. I just don't see a point in making her pregnant now, I don't see how it can influence the narrative.

It's a set up. We've been theorizing for a long time that we will have Shallan's children in the second half of SA, maybe even as PoV characters and WaT is the best possible place to set this up. We have 8 days of the story left in the book, Shallan's pregnancy won't affect the story that much anyway, but it's a foreshadowing. It doesn't even have to be confirmed within those 8 days, it's just a hint for the future books. 

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Slayd_07 said:

Exactly! Shallan being pregnant would just be cheap and tropey. Also, whether she is or isn't right now is completely irrelevant unless Adolin dies and she survives him, and the whole "Male character dies, is survived by love interest who secretly got pregnant right before he dies!" trope is super lame. 

I don’t see, Why you think her being pregnant is either cheap or a trophy.

 

Neither do I understand what you have against the particular trope. Make no mistake I don’t want Adolin to die with or without.

That said, I understand why this trope exist. It gives the read hope for the future, it says yes people die, but they also get born Death is not the end. And neither is your favorite characters sacrifice in vain. There Sacrifice was necessary the future generation. 
 

I don’t want Adolin to die either way, but I would find it easier to accept if shallan was pregnant. Glimmer of Hope when in despair is better than nothing. 

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yeah, but it doesn't answer my question, what her pregnancy would add to the book 5 narrative. As you say, there will be plenty of time for her to get pregnant during the time skip, so I just don't see it necessary to make her pregnant right now, other for the drama, in case he dies, or for some 'happy couple' moments, which, in my opinion, we've already had enough in previous books and in the beginning of this one as well. Making Shallan pregnant now just to let Adolin say something like 'oh, Shallan, I'm so happy, I will definitely be a better father than Dalinar!' and then the curtains close, is just... meh.

Of course it would add to the narrative, especially if Adolin or some other character dies see the post above

[Brodo]

We've had "Chekhov's implied intercourse" in the shower - which isn't really usual in Brandon's writing, so it has to be meaningful.
I believe it takes several hours or days until fertilization, and weeks for it to be considered a pregnancy - so likely Shallan isn't pregnant yet but will be, and Sja Anat's words just reinforce it.

Of course they've been intimate a lot before that - and for much of the stay in Lasting Integrity they had little else to do, so it's also a possibility that they could have conceived in Shadesmar - which might have interesting effects on the kid.

Of course another way that scene could be meaningful is if Shallan and Adolin won't see each other again - and it's not mutually exclusive. 
 

[Sedside she/her]

5 hours ago, Brodo said:

We've had "Chekhov's implied intercourse" in the shower - which isn't really usual in Brandon's writing, so it has to be meaningful.
I believe it takes several hours or days until fertilization, and weeks for it to be considered a pregnancy - so likely Shallan isn't pregnant yet but will be, and Sja Anat's words just reinforce it.

Of course they've been intimate a lot before that - and for much of the stay in Lasting Integrity they had little else to do, so it's also a possibility that they could have conceived in Shadesmar - which might have interesting effects on the kid.

Of course another way that scene could be meaningful is if Shallan and Adolin won't see each other again - and it's not mutually exclusive. 
 

I'm glad you wrote it. Because this is exactly why shower scene can't mean anything in regards of Shallan's possible pregnancy in this book. As you said, maximum what she has right now in this case is fertilized egg. And even if it really can be seen in Shadesmar (I don't know what Brandon thinks about it, so I won't speculate), Shallan won't even notice she is pregnant till the end of the book. Even if her cycle is as accurate as Cusicesh the Protector, it will take 13 days at the very least for her to start being suspicious, unless Rosharan women physiology differs greatly from ours. And why even add this scene, if, as you said, we've seen two more sex scenes in the previous book and Almighty knows how many we haven't seen. But we know for sure there were plenty, as Shallan is very eager for this side of their relationship.

So the shower scene can be either a fanservice, or a "goodbye sex". I really hope it's the latter, because in regards of the former, unlike Ala, I do, unfortunately, have a stomach.

Edited October 30, 2024 by Sedside

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's a set up. We've been theorizing for a long time that we will have Shallan's children in the second half of SA, maybe even as PoV characters and WaT is the best possible place to set this up. We have 8 days of the story left in the book, Shallan's pregnancy won't affect the story that much anyway, but it's a foreshadowing. It doesn't even have to be confirmed within those 8 days, it's just a hint for the future books. 

I just don't see the hint or setup. I see extremely normal phrases being used by Sja-Anat in regards to her own children, and then trying to make a connection to Shallan and make her think of her own posterity. I think this has been wildly blown out of proportion. Sure, Shallan will probably have kids at some point and it's totally possible that she gets pregnant in this book. I don't have a problem with it. I just have a problem with the absolute certainty I keep seeing by people because one spren referenced preventing the end of the world so Shallan's children could have a place to live. Let's pump the brakes and see if there is any other foreshadowing or references that give this a little more validity instead of jumping right into "omg shallan is pregnant and it's going to be twins because Sja-Anat said children plural". That's way too much for me.

[FoxOfScadrial]

On 10/28/2024 at 11:03 AM, the_archduke said:

We know she and Adolin have been having a healthy marital relationship.  They are also feudal nobles raised to know the necessity of lines of succession.  

Sja Anat (who casually mentions that she can see souls) tells Shallan:

"I am on the side of preserving a world for my children. You should not fear “my side,” Shallan. You should embrace it. If there is room for my children, there will be room for yours."

In the previous chapter, Hoid talks about caring for infants.  

When writing the Wheel of Time, I seem to recall Brandon commented on how writing pregnant Elayne was awkward.  Since we are going to have a time jump after this book, he can avoid this.  We could have Adolin and Shallan's kids as characters starting in book 6.

I could for sure see Shallan having a kid between SA5 and 6, and that kid being an important character 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 10/28/2024 at 12:03 PM, the_archduke said:

Sja Anat (who casually mentions that she can see souls) tells Shallan:

"I am on the side of preserving a world for my children. You should not fear “my side,” Shallan. You should embrace it. If there is room for my children, there will be room for yours."

But would Shallan's kid(s) already have souls that show up in shadesmar just because she had shower sex a day or two before? I would imagine that things don't appear in the cognitive realm until they have been thought up and perceived in some way by the populous, no? Wouldn't it make sense for the souls to show up after the parents know they are going to have a child?

In the same way that the beads in shadesmar change based on how they are perceived over time. And how you wouldn't have a bead for a carved wooden horse before the person doing the carving has envisioned what they will be carving, likely not even until after they are well into the process. Until then it would be a bead for a wooden block that has an inkling of an idea of what it might be used for.

I propose that there is no way for Sja-Anat to actually know if Shallan is pregnant. And again re-assert that all Sja-Anat cares about in this interaction is creating a world safe for her own children.

[Miyabi She/Her]

[Amusement] HAHAHA!  Baby Kholin being a Yu-Gi-Oh! character is my new head-canon.  Ya'll are out of control. XD

[Sedside she/her]

7 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

she had shower sex a day or two before

It happened a couple of hours ago, in the beginning of Day Two. And it's still Day Two.

[Michael Portz he/him]

4 hours ago, Sedside said:

It happened a couple of hours ago, in the beginning of Day Two. And it's still Day Two.

So what? She will be taken into the spiritual realm with the Ghostbloods, get lost there, loose time and come back on day 9 but a subjective 1 year later with baby.

Edited October 31, 2024 by Michael Portz
Un-so-whatted Sedside

[Sedside she/her]

3 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

So what? She will be taken into the spiritual realm with the Ghostbloods, get lost there, loose time and come back on day 9 but a subjective 1 year later with baby.

Don't "so what" me, please.

[Michael Portz he/him]

1 minute ago, Sedside said:

Don't "so what" me, please.

Un-so-whatted you. 

Apparently my understanding of the english language lacks in the proper use of "so what". My apologies

[Sedside she/her]

39 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Apparently my understanding of the english language lacks in the proper use of "so what". My apologies

Thank you 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

7 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

She will be taken into the spiritual realm with the Ghostbloods, get lost there, loose time and come back on day 9 but a subjective 1 year later with baby.

Sure, she can get pregnant and have a baby, but I'm saying Sja-Anat is not trying to make a subtle reference to Shallan currently carrying anything more than Adolin's sperm insider her.

11 hours ago, Sedside said:

It happened a couple of hours ago, in the beginning of Day Two. And it's still Day Two.

So there's definitely no way that there are already soul flames for twin babies if she literally just had sex. Unless she got pregnant from a different time they had sex back in Lasting Integrity. But again - there are zero signs pointing to her actually being pregnant and this one liner from Sja-Anat is being taken wildly out of proportion. People are trying to back it up by highlighting the shower sex scene beforehand but that makes it all make even less sense.

[Miyabi She/Her]

10 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Un-so-whatted you. 

Apparently my understanding of the english language lacks in the proper use of "so what". My apologies

[Consolation] It mostly depends on tone and the relationship with the person.  Unfortunately in text we lose tone.  One tone can be playful, another dismissive, and another condescending.  [Consideration] That's why I started "posting with Rhythm."  Mostly as a joke, but it also ended up being a fun way to make sure that tone is felt properly if something I say could be interpreted in an unintended way.

[Michael Portz he/him]

4 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Sure, she can get pregnant and have a baby, but I'm saying Sja-Anat is not trying to make a subtle reference to Shallan currently carrying anything more than Adolin's sperm insider her.

So there's definitely no way that there are already soul flames for twin babies if she literally just had sex. Unless she got pregnant from a different time they had sex back in Lasting Integrity. But again - there are zero signs pointing to her actually being pregnant and this one liner from Sja-Anat is being taken wildly out of proportion. People are trying to back it up by highlighting the shower sex scene beforehand but that makes it all make even less sense.

I hardly ever think about the technicalities of other peoples origin and I won't start here  You and @Sedside are/were of course absolutely right in that biologically its not possible to decide about a possible pregnancy "right now"

15 hours ago, Sedside said:

It happened a couple of hours ago, in the beginning of Day Two. And it's still Day Two.

But in https://coppermind.net/wiki/Voidbinding its said:

Quote

[...] that Voidbinding usually, though not always, originates with the Unmade.

and

Quote

One of the most common powers associated with Voidbinding is prophecy and foresight.

So it might well be that Sja-anat knows something about a pending pregnancy.

[Miyabi She/Her]

[Resolve] I think that she was speaking more metaphorically as in the children of man and less Shallan's child.  Though I absolutely love the thought that she might be pregnant.