Dalinar did nothing wrong. Change my mind

[Lord Spirit he/him]

I have two things to say here. 
1.
So chapter 20 furthers Adolin’s growing resentment of his father. I can understand getting mad with him for killing Evi and not being a great father. But he got along great (mostly) with Dalinar during the first 3 books, so I feel like his anger is a bit unessecary. They had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to talk things out, but apparently Adolin just chose to let it sit?

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. Gavilar told him to conquer a city, and he did. Yes burning the rift was extreme. But he was at war, which is an exception to normal life, and I think he was specifically told to make an example of the city. And he only went nuclear after trying to be peaceful. But he was doing what Gavilar told him. Gavilar knew full well what Dalinar was capable of and chose to send his very violent brother to deal with the problem. 

By contrast, Adolin killed Saedeas on his own accord and never got punished for it. It was illegal and wrong, even if Saedeas definitely deserved it. He shouldn’t hold Dalinar to a standard that he doesn’t follow. 

[Sedside she/her]

I agree with this. I would also like to add to your first point, that the way Adolin reacts to the information about his mother is very different from Renarin's reaction. RoW Ch. 54:

Quote

It was a tragedy that she hadn't lived to see Dalinar become the man she'd imagined him to be. A shame that Odium had seen her killed. That was the way Renarin had to present it to himself. Better to turn his pain against the enemy than to lose his father along with his mother.

Regarding the Rift, even if his actions were bad and illegal, I think the point is about accepting the mistakes you made and the pain they cause, but being upset with Dalinar's actions is against this. It's about making no mistakes at all, but that's impossible. In this case we should also be upset with Shallan for killing her parents and with Teft for what he did to his family.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Sedside

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:

I have two things to say here. 
1.
So chapter 20 furthers Adolin’s growing resentment of his father. I can understand getting mad with him for killing Evi and not being a great father. But he got along great (mostly) with Dalinar during the first 3 books, so I feel like his anger is a bit unessecary. They had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to talk things out, but apparently Adolin just chose to let it sit?

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. Gavilar told him to conquer a city, and he did. Yes burning the rift was extreme. But he was at war, which is an exception to normal life, and I think he was specifically told to make an example of the city. And he only went nuclear after trying to be peaceful. But he was doing what Gavilar told him. Gavilar knew full well what Dalinar was capable of and chose to send his very violent brother to deal with the problem. 

By contrast, Adolin killed Saedeas on his own accord and never got punished for it. It was illegal and wrong, even if Saedeas definitely deserved it. He shouldn’t hold Dalinar to a standard that he doesn’t follow. 

I agree with your second point - burning a city is a tragedy, but it's completely normal during a war. It's also a message to your enemies - know when to surrender and we let you live, otherwise we will burn down everything. Historically speaking sieges were expensive, very expensive. A single siege could dry out a treasury of an entire country. And the death toll could be enormous, mostly due to diseases. Therefore pillaging and burning a city that didn't surrender sent a message to every other town - and it was an effective strategy. 

But it's not like people were ok with this, they weren't. They were terrified of such acts, mortified by the terrible loss of life. Often a sacked city became a rally point for the other side. It's understandable that many would be upset by the Rift, including Dalinar. This was not done to pillage or to capture the city, it was done just to massacre everyone in it. Those people were innocent. This was way too extreme. A genocide by modern standards. It's not about legality, it's about all of those innocent people who perished. 

In that context Adolin's rage is fully justified. Dalinar not only killed his mother, he ran away and hid himself from the truth - first in the alcohol, then by using the Nightwatcher. He was absent throughout Adolin's entire life, while Evi was raising him alone. Dalinar killed her, yes it was by accident, but it was Adolin's beloved mother. Dalinar then "pretended" to be this noble and honorable man (he was), when in fact his hands were washed in Innocents' blood. And after all of that he dares to preach Adolin, speaking to him from the moral high ground, centering every conversation on himself, thinking of himself as a better person (he is) and avoid at least apologizing to Adolin and talking to him openly and honestly? I don't remember if Adolin even learned the truth from Dalinar or his book. I can fully understand why Adolin is so furious with his father. This is not something you can easily forgive, no matter how strong were Adolin's relations with his father before.

Adolin understands that his father is a better person now, that he tries to be a better father and that Dalinar did suffer as well because of what he did. Adolin knows that his rage is in many cases unreasonable. Both of them are at fault for not trying to resolve their issues but I can't blame Adolin for acting this way. 

[Inevitability]

It makes me wonder if there’s some outside influence happening to Adolin

 

i think we’ve had it mentioned by Brandon that there is some Unmade stuff going on with Shallan’s family, I wonder if by association with her he is now coming under that influence

[king of nowhere]

Invading your neighbors because "they have stuff. Maybe we should have that stuff. So we took it" is absolutely and unquestionably wrong. 

Burning a city because "hey, it's war"... The rifters pulled a nasty move with the betrayal, but still too much. Especially since it was dalinar's side that started it. I could almost accept it, if he hadn't ordered shoot the messengers who were trying to surrender.

One thing i give him, killing evi wasn't his fault. And even had he known it, it would have been wrong to let himself be blackmailed just by your wife being taken hostage. He is willing to gamble the lives of his men, he shouldn't make favoritism.

That said, dalinar has changed enough that he can mostly get a free pass. As wax put it, "you haven't been that man in years"

[Unhurried he/him]

Good food for thought - I think a lot of this goes back to Dalinar's conversations with Mr T, where it becomes increasingly clear Dalinar cannot agree with utilitarian ethics, perhaps because he's seen the suffering it can cause firsthand. IIRC these discussions are around the same time Dalinar is remembering his past, which in a way is one long experiment of "what means are justified for bringing unity?"

On 10/9/2024 at 1:55 AM, Lord Spirit said:

2.

 There are a lot of people who are upset with Dalinar for his rampaging as the blackthorn. But, the thing is… his actions were completely legal and justified. 

By Honor's standards, what Dalinar did may well have been legally and morally justified, but ultimately Dalinar decides he cannot agree with this approach himself (cue Oath ringer's "you cannot have my pain" scene).

I bring this up because of the wider questions around who might take up Honor's Shard, and/or whether Dalinar might be successful as Honor's champion. If Dalinar already disagrees with THonor's preference for the letter of the law over personal conscience, then I can see it being a struggle for Dalinar to take up the Shard/succeed as the champion without redefining what honourable actions look like. I think that's part of why his scenes with Adolin remain, to remind us how Dalinar's conscience has changed/been challenged over time.

[Erklitt]

On 10/9/2024 at 12:33 PM, alder24 said:

And after all of that he dares to preach Adolin, speaking to him from the moral high ground, centering every conversation on himself, thinking of himself as a better person (he is) and avoid at least apologizing to Adolin and talking to him openly and honestly?

This.

The rupture began with Adolin admitting to killing Sadeas. Dalinar's reaction is extremely unjust. A short first wave of anger would be understandable, both because of the deed itself and the long silence. But continuing to think less of Adolin for that, after what Dalinar himself did in his younger days - who in Adolin's shoes wouldn't resent that?

The problem is that Dalinar had lifted Adolin on an inhuman pedestal of perfection and now blames him for being not quite that perfect. 

 

On 10/9/2024 at 12:33 PM, alder24 said:

I don't remember if Adolin even learned the truth from Dalinar or his book.

As I recall, the reason given for Adolin knowing about it now is that - while yet officially unpublished - parts of the book had already gotten around. So, yeah...

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

That said, dalinar has changed enough that he can mostly get a free pass.

I disagree on this. 

 

Dalinar recognizes what he did wrong, and he is sorry for it. However, he has made no attempt to atone for his mistakes. Especially when concerning Adolin / Renarin. 

 

When Adolin was a boy, Dalinar wasn't around because the war was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his family. 

 

When Evi died, Dalinar wasn't around because the booze and hiding his pain was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things that his sons.

 

When Gavilar died, Dalinar wasn't around because retribution was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his sons. 

 

Adolin had to force himself into Dalinars life through his skill with a sword. This is evidenced by the fact that Dalinar and Renarin are still basically strangers. Only when Renarin got fancy enlightened powers did Dalinar pay any attention. 

 

In Oathbringer when Adolin learns about his mother, Dalinar is preventing the world from ending. The war was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his sons. 

 

In ROW, Dalinar was making a deal with a God, and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his sons. 

 

And now, once again, Dalinar needs to get ready for his contest with a God, and can't be bothered. There are more important things than his sons. 

 

Disregarding the thrill, the murders / genocide, and the alcohol, Dalinar consistently chooses to neglect his family. We have seen Kaladin creating a family with Bridge 4, that he makes sure he can spend time with. He also spends a lot of time talking to his mother and father - all while saving the world. Shallan creates a family with her Lightweavers, and makes sure she spends time with them, all while saving the world. Each of these characters has severe mental trauma / issues, so that doesn't come up in this imo. 

 

Adolin and Renarin should be the most important people in the world to Dalinar, and he treats them worse than his bodyguard. 

 

I don't blame Adolin for being furious. I dont think it is healthy for him to carry that anger, but its completely justified. And honestly, Dalinar has a LOT of apologizing to do as well as a change in his priorities / actions. 

[king of nowhere]

9 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I disagree on this. 

 

Dalinar recognizes what he did wrong, and he is sorry for it. However, he has made no attempt to atone for his mistakes. Especially when concerning Adolin / Renarin. 

 

When Adolin was a boy, Dalinar wasn't around because the war was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his family. 

...

this has got nothing with dalinar's crimes, and it's just that dalinar is not a good father. it's an entirely different thing.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

6 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

this has got nothing with dalinar's crimes, and it's just that dalinar is not a good father. it's an entirely different thing.

The thread was that Dalinar did nothing wrong. Dalinar certainly has done some things wrong - including his treatment of his children.

Especially as it relates to this section:

On 10/8/2024 at 8:55 PM, Lord Spirit said:

But he got along great (mostly) with Dalinar during the first 3 books, so I feel like his anger is a bit unessecary. They had a year between Oathbringer and RoW to talk things out, but apparently Adolin just chose to let it sit?

Edited October 10, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

[Lord Spirit he/him]

9 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The thread was that Dalinar did nothing wrong. Dalinar certainly has done some things wrong - including his treatment of his children.

Especially as it relates to this section:

I’ll admit Dalinar isn’t good at parenting, but my points still stand:

he had justification for the rift and he genuinely regrets his deeds. 

Despite the neglect you mention, Adolin had good relationship with his father during WoK. Dalinar did care about his children, but he was very military minded and focused on saving Alethekar. He is capable of love; he makes that clear to Elohkar several times, but he’s not good at showing it. 
 

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

This.

The rupture began with Adolin admitting to killing Sadeas. Dalinar's reaction is extremely unjust. A short first wave of anger would be understandable, both because of the deed itself and the long silence. But continuing to think less of Adolin for that, after what Dalinar himself did in his younger days - who in Adolin's shoes wouldn't resent that?

The problem is that Dalinar had lifted Adolin on an inhuman pedestal of perfection and now blames him for being not quite that perfect. 

 

As I recall, the reason given for Adolin knowing about it now is that - while yet officially unpublished - parts of the book had already gotten around. So, yeah...

I feel like we don’t have any perspectives of Dalinar thoughts on Adolin until the chapters we just got. Adolin believes that Dalinar has overly high expectations, but that’s his view. Dalinar has had high expectations, but they aren’t anything Dalinar himself doesn’t follow. He wants the best for Adolin, but Adolin doesn’t see it that way. As far as I remember, he accepted Adolins murder easier than Adolin accepted his. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

37 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

he had justification for the rift

Perhaps it is just the Windrunner in me but I don't think there is any justification for the deaths of innocent people. 

[listerfeend]

Having grown up in a military family, and been military myself, I have a pretty different view of Dalinar's actions regarding the relationship he has with his family. Duty gets in the way. Always. Being a Highprince is even more of a duty than being a general, and it comes with sacrifices that most of us aren't willing to make, especially around personal relationships. As Lan Mandragoran was often fond of pointing out, "Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain."

I also think people tend to gloss over the fact that Odium was specifically targeting Dalinar, mostly through the Thrill, to essentially goad him into doing the most heinous acts that he has ever done, culminating with the burning of the Rift and the death of his wife. It feels entirely unfair to Dalinar to judge him as if he was the sole person responsible for everything he was doing. He was being manipulated by Gavilar, his brother and his king, from the jump. Manipulated by Odium, a basically all powerful god with nefarious intent, through the Thrill, which we now know is a Splinter of that very same nefarious god. At the time, they just thought the Thrill was something people experienced, like an adrenaline dump, but stronger. Now we know that it is FAR worse than that. 

Has Dalinar made mistakes, and done some very naughty things? Definitely. Does he own some share of the responsibility for the Rift? Definitely. Maybe even most of it, he took responsibility for it all in Oathbringer, but I think that is more about trying to make amends and live up to his own standards than it is about being fully 100% responsible for all of the actions he took. His alcoholism was an escape from the PTSD he was suffering due to those very same acts, something MANY military vets succumb to IRL. 

Am I saying that Dalinar is completely guilt free and Adolin has no right to be mad at him? Of course not. Like it or not, responsible or not, Evi, Adolin's beloved mother, died because of actions Dalinar took, whether he was in a mental state to be held accountable for those actions or not. No one would be able to easily forgive their father for that. 

I'm also frustrated that Dalinar hasn't even seemed to make an effort to talk to Adolin about it, but neither has Adolin. In fact, Adolin has made it pretty clear he doesn't want Dalinar to talk to him about it. Plus, there is kind of the end of the world happening. Sort of kind of bigger fish to fry in the grand scheme of things. Duty being as heavy as it is. 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When Gavilar died, Dalinar wasn't around because retribution was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his sons. 

 

Adolin had to force himself into Dalinars life through his skill with a sword. This is evidenced by the fact that Dalinar and Renarin are still basically strangers. Only when Renarin got fancy enlightened powers did Dalinar pay any attention. 

 

In Oathbringer when Adolin learns about his mother, Dalinar is preventing the world from ending. The war was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his sons. 

 

In ROW, Dalinar was making a deal with a God, and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his sons. 

 

And now, once again, Dalinar needs to get ready for his contest with a God, and can't be bothered. There are more important things than his sons.

Yes, all of that, excepting PERHAPS going off to the Shattered Plains to seek retribution, all of that definitely IS more important that his sons. We are talking about the end of the world. Millions of people dying, millions more made refugees. Yes, dealing with all of that is absolutely MORE important than his relationship to anyone, including his sons. 

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When Adolin was a boy, Dalinar wasn't around because the war was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things than his family.

That is his duty, to go where his psychopathic brother tells him to. Could he have said no? Presumably. Would literally anyone else in his position have said no? Probably not. That's his job. His responsibility. 

 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When Evi died, Dalinar wasn't around because the booze and hiding his pain was more important and he couldn't be bothered. There were more important things that his sons.

Unfortunately, PTSD and alcoholism go hand in hand. This is a world where their only idea of helping the mentally ill is putting them in a dark room and forgetting about them until they "get better". What other outcome do we expect? 

I realize I come across as making a lot of excuses for Dalinar here, but I really feel like he deserves at least a BIT of understanding, and right now he's doing his best to save the planet. Adolin is just as capable of extending an olive branch as Dalinar, maybe more so, since Dalinar clearly feels like Adolin doesn't want to hear anything about it from him. 

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We have seen Kaladin creating a family with Bridge 4, that he makes sure he can spend time with. He also spends a lot of time talking to his mother and father - all while saving the world. Shallan creates a family with her Lightweavers, and makes sure she spends time with them, all while saving the world.

Kaladin and Shallan both belong to Orders, and classes of society, that enable these kinds of relationships. Dalinar was a Highprince, and is a King, and was the only Bondsmith until very recently. It's not like he's in a position to actively cultivate friendships and personal relationships in the same way they are. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

13 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Millions of people dying, millions more made refugees. Yes, dealing with all of that is absolutely MORE important than his relationship to anyone, including his sons. 

Im not going to get into wether one thing is more important than his sons or not. Thats a personal decision. However, either way, Adolin is right to feel neglected. There are other people in the military in these books that do not neglect their families because of duty. That was Dalinars choice. Again, I wont get into wether that was the right choice or not, but as his son, Adolin has every right to be upset about that. 

 

15 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Adolin is just as capable of extending an olive branch as Dalinar, maybe more so, since Dalinar clearly feels like Adolin doesn't want to hear anything about it from him. 

This should not be his responsibility, he didnt kill his mother. In addition, he has already done so. By keeping a smile on his face and not bringing this up for years was extending an olive branch. He did not kick Dalinar when he was down, he helped his father get back on his feet. Now his father is back on his feet and is still choosing other things over Adolin (and Renarin), regardless of the importance of those things.

 

In the recent chapters, Adolin chose to leave instead of forcing the conversation, that is true. But Adolin is the son, and Dalinar the ethics-spouting father. The responsibility to fix this falls on Dalinar. IMO Adolin has been more than patient enough with his father.

 

18 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

Kaladin and Shallan both belong to Orders, and classes of society, that enable these kinds of relationships. Dalinar was a Highprince, and is a King, and was the only Bondsmith until very recently. It's not like he's in a position to actively cultivate friendships and personal relationships in the same way they are. 

Kaladin was enslaved, starting a new radiant order, as well as in the military and chose not to neglect his family. When Kaladin is HighMarshall we hear about how stressed he is trying to balance all of his responsibilities because to him keeping that connection that he has made is just as important as any other duty. Shallan was fighting off-world spies and starting a new radiant order. Either of them could have made the same excuses as Dalinar, but they didnt. 

 

It may seem to Dalinar and people here that he didn't really have a choice when its between making up with his son and saving the world. But I think Kaladin and Shallan have proven that false. That is not an either or situation, thats just how it feels to Dalinar. 

 

This has been stewing for years - not weeks or months. Even before Adolin learned about Evi's cause of death, he was still upset with his father for his neglect and alcoholism. There has absolutely been time in all these years to work on this problem. Dalinar chose not to. 

 

 

 

[Erklitt]

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

I feel like we don’t have any perspectives of Dalinar thoughts on Adolin until the chapters we just got.

Yes we do, because we hear Dalinar voicing them several times. I don't have the time to search out all those quotations, but 'you are a better man from the start' has been the tone of Dalinar towards Adolin for almost three books.

Just one example I knew how to find quickly:

Quote

“You’ve been taught well, Adolin,” Dalinar said, eyes on that assassin. “You’re a better man than I am. I was always a tyrant who had to learn to be something else. But you, you’ve been a good man from the start. Lead them, Adolin. Unite them.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: Book Two of the Stormlight Archive (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (S.1020). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Spirit said:

As far as I remember, he accepted Adolins murder easier than Adolin accepted his. 

Adolin murdered a man who was not only a continuing thorn in their flesh, threatening to undermine them further, but had tried to kill Dalinar and Adolin and was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Dalinar's troops.

Dalinar killed his wife and Adolin's mother. 

You really want to put those two things on the same level, arguing that the reactions to both should be compared in their strength?

[therunner he/him]

I'd add one point to Dalinar burning the Rift, and why is it considered horrible in universe even by other Alethi.

Burning and pillaging a city is "normal" for war of this time. But that is not what Dalinar did.

What he did is genocide a city of tens of thousands, by burning them alive, and he blocked roads out of the city so no one could even escape. That is not normal, even for Alethi. In fact, some of his own handpicked soldiers left him over that.

And Adolin's mother died in that, while trying to save those people. And he himself was lead to believe that horrible act was retribution for that very death. I.e. Adolin was effectively taught that Evi's dead was something so horrible, genocide was a response. Dalinar cannot be surprised that Adolin is very hurt by that, and hates him to some extent.

Edited October 10, 2024 by therunner

[Lord Spirit he/him]

13 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Adolin murdered a man who was not only a continuing thorn in their flesh, threatening to undermine them further, but had tried to kill Dalinar and Adolin and was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Dalinar's troops.

Dalinar killed his wife and Adolin's mother. 

You really want to put those two things on the same level, arguing that the reactions to both should be compared in their strength?

Evi’s death was a complete accident. 
Saedeas’s death was murder. 
Evi was definitely a better person, but no one person should be allowed to decided who lives and dies. 
I will say that Adolin is worse in this comparison. 

[Erklitt]

14 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

Saedeas’s death was murder.

No it wasn't. It was homicide, done after strong provocation. There was nothing premeditated about it.

Quote

“Why?” Adolin asked, stepping up to him. “Why are you like this, Sadeas?” “Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals, son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve been pointed that way since Gavilar died.” “It doesn’t have to be that way.” “It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.” Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped. That’s it.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: Book Two of the Stormlight Archive (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (S.1067). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version. 

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

Evi’s death was a complete accident. 

Yes it was. But hiding it, allowing his son to find out about it through his book instead of telling him himself after he'd remembered?

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

no one person should be allowed to decided who lives and dies. 

Dalinar used to do that all the time. Adolin was goaded into it in one single instance after intense provocation. 

Sorry, your comparisons just don't add up.

[therunner he/him]

27 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

Evi was definitely a better person, but no one person should be allowed to decided who lives and dies. 
I will say that Adolin is worse in this comparison. 

By your own logic Dalinar is literally ten thousands times worse than Adolin, since he murdered an entire city state.

[Ailvara]

I think Dalinar did much worse things than Adolin.

At the same time, Dalinar has since turned his life by 180, while Adolin hasn't significantly changed. It's a strong theme of SA that it doesn't matter where you start, or even how low you fall, but where you go from there.

Another strong theme is idealism vs utilitarianism. We can see it in the Radiant oaths - starting from "Journey above destination" - and in most characters' arcs, that the former is usually the right choice for the characters. Those who do the honourable thing, even if seemingly unpractical, are portrayed positively and often their actions lead to a greater unforeseen gain. Those who align with utilitarianism - well, they become Odium. Just look at Moash, he had damn good reasons to kill Elhokar, including the good of the whole kingdom, and where did that get him? And where did the opposite decision get Kaladin?

Everyone can have their own opinion on these matters, and I believe that sparking such discussion was one of the series' intentions. At the same time, in the moral conflict between Adolin and Dalinar, there is a clear preference in the narrative towards the qualities displayed by Dalinar.

(And if only killing Sadeas was at least such an obvious practical gain. If Adolin got exposed, the outcome wouldn't be rosy for the Kholins. Not to mention Amaram wasn't any better as a Highprince. We'll never know if they wouldn't come with a safer way to get rid of this danger.)

Edited October 10, 2024 by Ailvara

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/9/2024 at 5:33 AM, alder24 said:

I don't remember if Adolin even learned the truth from Dalinar or his book.

WoB is that Dalinar had someone read Adolin and Renarin a draft before sharing it, so they learned before the general populace did at least but still not from him.

Spoiler

Love-that-dog

I’m curious, based on Adolin’s behavior towards his father getting more and more rebellious and antagonistic.

Did Dalinar tell his family about Evi and what he was confessing g before the book was published or did they find out like the general public?

Brandon Sanderson

He kind of told them. He had the book read to Adolin and Renarin, in draft form, before he started releasing those drafts.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 20, 2020)

I wouldn't want to be the person who had to deliver that reading...

[Sedside she/her]

Of course Adolin has every right to be upset with Dalinar. I don't think anyone denies it. The point is whether or not he is going to exercise this right, and where it could take him. I mean...

Kaladin has every right to be upset with Roshone and Elhokar.

Moash has every right to be upset with Roshone and Elhokar.

Two characters are in the similar situations, I would even say that Moash's is even much worse, his entire family is dead because of the actions of these people. Okay, so two characters, similar situations, different decisions made, different outcome. Why is noone trying to justify Moash? He had every right for the revenge. I mean, just try to put yourselves in his shoes, really try to do it. Your beloved grandparents are thrown to prison on a trumped-up basis until they die, and you are not even there to see them, try to help them, or say goodbye. And Elhokar is responsible for that, Elhokar who is an awful king, so it would be for the good of the kingdom to get rid of him. After all we now have Jasnah on the throne, so everything turned well after Elhokar has been murdered by Moash. But I don't see a lot of people saying Moash was right to kill Elhokar, and Kaladin was wrong to protect him in WoR. Why is that? Because we already know what happened to Moash later?  Well, sure, Moash was down this road for much longer time, he is on the further waypoint in this journey, but the journey is the same, at least that's what the book implies, imo.

But when it comes to Adolin, it should be different for him for an unknown reason. Sadeas had deserved to die, so Adolin was right to kill him. Dalinar had done a lot of terrible things, so Adolin is right to be mad at him. But there is no one-to-one dependency here! Someone may indeed deserve to die, but it doesn't mean you have to necessarily kill them. Someone may indeed have had done terrible things, but it doesn't mean you have to necessarily be mad at them. You can make your own decisions. You can choose to forgive a man who did terrible things and to spare a man who deserves to die, you know? It's about the decisions you make and the actions you take, and about your decisions and your actions not being dictated by your emotions or someone else's actions. And we already see the example of the opposite with Renarin, who also has every right to be mad at Dalinar, but he has already chosen not to. He has already chosen another way for himself while being in absolutely the same position as his brother. Is it something we should ignore narrative wise? Is it a coincidence, that we already had Kaladin-Moash arc kind of mirroring this one? We know it didn't end well for Moash, but for Adolin, of course, it would be different, because... Why?

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

Of course Adolin has every right to be upset with Dalinar. I don't think anyone denies it. The point is whether or not he is going to exercise this right, and where it could take him. I mean...

Kaladin has every right to be upset with Roshone and Elhokar.

Moash has every right to be upset with Roshone and Elhokar.

Two characters are in the similar situations

Okay, so two characters, similar situations, different decisions made, different outcome. Your beloved grandparents are thrown to prison on a trumped-up basis until they die, and you are not even there to see them, try to help them, or say goodbye. After all we now have Jasnah on the throne, so everything turned well after Elhokar has been murdered by Moash. But I don't see a lot of people saying Moash was right to kill Elhokar, and Kaladin was wrong to protect him in WoR. Why is that? Because we already know what happened to Moash later? 

Yes, that is true.

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, I would even say that Moash's is even much worse, his entire family is dead because of the actions of these people.

I would not say so.

I think having your father burn your mother alive is much worse on an emotional level, especially if your father lied to you about it for ~10 years.

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Why is noone trying to justify Moash? He had every right for the revenge.

No one is trying to justify Adolin having revenge, so this is false equivalency.

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And Elhokar is responsible for that, Elhokar who is an awful king, so it would be for the good of the kingdom to get rid of him.

Elhokar realized that and tried to abdicate (which Dalinar stopped), and then to try and grow better (which Moash stopped).

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But I don't see a lot of people saying Moash was right to kill Elhokar, and Kaladin was wrong to protect him in WoR. Why is that?

Because Moash swore to protect the king, and then betrayed that oath, along with his friends. And most importantly, he would have killed the very person that saved his live (Kaladin) in the murder attempt.

For Moash it is very difficult to care about anyone but himself, and even then it is typically only so long as it benefits him somehow. (e.g. he only helped Sah and others only because he was angry that Singers are enslaving their own, not that they have slaves).

I do think Moash did deserve justice, but as Kaladin points out, it was primarily Roshone who was responsible.

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But when it comes to Adolin, it should be different for him for an unknown reason.

Adolin and Moash is false equivalency.

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Sadeas had deserved to die, so Adolin was right to kill him.

Sadeas was active danger to Adolin, his family, and frankly, humanity. Had he said to Adolin he would no longer work against Dalinar, Adolin would not kill him.

Proper equivalent would be if Elhokar threaten some of Moash's family and Moash, and he killed him in response. (which would be justifiable in my opinion).

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Dalinar had done a lot of terrible things, so Adolin is right to be mad at him.

Yes, where is the difference here?

Kaladin is years separated from the incident that killed his brother, and mostly blames himself, not Roshone and much less Elhokar.

Adolin learned not even a year ago his father burned his mother to death, and Rift as whole was always known as something Dalinar is responsible for. So of course he blames him.

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

It's about the decisions you make and the actions you take, and about your decisions and your actions not being dictated by your emotions or someone else's actions.

Except Adolin already does not let his decisions and actions be dictated by his emotions in this situation.

He acknowledges it is more important to work together than his hate for his father. He struggles with it, but he does not work against him or sabotage him. That may change, but so far he does not do that.

So yeah, I don't understand why you are making this point at all.

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We know it didn't end well for Moash, but for Adolin, of course, it would be different, because... Why?

Because Adolin is not Moash.
Moash is the kind of person to lie and betray to get what he wants and to try and get his former best friend to commit suicide! And that is not because of Odium, even back in first two books, he was saying he wants to enslave lighteyes. That is not someone who is interested in justice.

Adolin is the kind of person to befriend everyone no matter the station, to help people for no benefit to himself, and to pay attention to those who are ignored to bring deadblade partially back (something thought impossible).

If you don't see the difference between them, I don't know what to tell you.

Edited October 11, 2024 by therunner

[Sedside she/her]

58 minutes ago, therunner said:

I would not say so.

I think having your father burn your mother alive is much worse on an emotional level, especially if your father lied to you about it for ~10 years.

I was comparing Kaladin and Moash in this particular line, not Moash and Adolin.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If you don't see the difference between them, I don't know what to tell you.

Well, I guess we will just have to wait less than 2 months and see 

[therunner he/him]

14 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I was comparing Kaladin and Moash in this particular line, not Moash and Adolin.

Ah, in that case yes, I would agree.

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Well, I guess we will just have to wait less than 2 months and see 

Indeed we will Though maybe we will get something pertinent in the previews.