Chapter 19 & 20 Discussion

[+Child of Hodor]

Who is the female friend who Wit reached out to?  My guess is Valor. This RoW epigraph has Harmony suggesting Wit talk to her. 

Quote

"Whimsy was not terribly useful, and Mercy worries me. I do think that Valor is reasonable, and suggest you approach her again. It has been too long, in her estimation, since your last conversation."

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Who is the female friend who Wit reached out to?  My guess is Valor. This RoW epigraph has Harmony suggesting Wit talk to her. 

In the last chapters we learned it was Frost's sister 

Spoiler

So, I sent a request to one of the best contract negotiators I know. Frost. Tall fellow. Big as a house, actually. Sharp teeth. Fondness for chastising me, which shows he has good judgment. He refused to help, as he insists he will not intervene, but his sister is as smart as he is, and she listened.

 

[listerfeend]

1 minute ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

In the last chapters we learned it was Frost's sister 

Seems possible Frost's Sister and Valor could be one and the same?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Is that just me or did they just disregard the possibility that the Skybreakers will attack Urithiru?

[BinarySecond]

Gosh this felt too short.

 

Navani hearing The Sibling and The Stormfather chatting is very interesting. Nightwatcher teams meeting when?

 

It's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Seemingly so. But I think the Skybreakers are still in Thaylenah (or they think so).

Also, if Azimir falls so does Emul. There goes the one country I thought would be fine…

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Is that just me or did they just disregard the possibility that the Skybreakers will attack Urithiru?

This is definitely whats going to happen. Theres no way they have someone mention that the tower is safe 3 chapters in a row if the tower certainly isn't safe.

[+Child of Hodor]

13 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

In the last chapters we learned it was Frost's sister 

  Reveal hidden contents

So, I sent a request to one of the best contract negotiators I know. Frost. Tall fellow. Big as a house, actually. Sharp teeth. Fondness for chastising me, which shows he has good judgment. He refused to help, as he insists he will not intervene, but his sister is as smart as he is, and she listened.

 

Thanks! I forgot that.  Frost not helping, but giving Hoid help by passing the request on to his sister seem like violating the spirit of his non-intervention stance. Not that there are any larger implications for him I just think its hypocritical. 

Speaking of broken promises 

Quote

a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago.

This makes it sound like Rayse inherited a promise from Adonalsium that he wishes he could break. I wonder what it is? Not harming Hoid or not harming former Dawnshards generally unless they break an oath? Not harming living things directly unless they break a promise? Like how Wit said Odium could wipe out all of Roshar if Fen broke the agreement.  

Edited October 7, 2024 by Child of Hodor

[Storyspren]

Anybody else think Adolin's new temper is due to a deepening bond with Maya?

Also, I was promised an info dump with cultivation last week. Um.... Can we get.... bonus chapters this week up until that info dump? 

[paperstones he/him]

9 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

This is definitely whats going to happen. Theres no way they have someone mention that the tower is safe 3 chapters in a row if the tower certainly isn't safe.

I agree. I also think that with the conversation between Navani and the Sibling with how they can do things the ancient Radiants couldn’t, she will be instrumental with defending the tower. Using it in a way it hasn’t before.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

This makes it sound like Rayse inherited a promise from Adonalsium that he wishes he could break. I wonder what it is? Not harming Hoid or not harming former Dawnshards generally unless they break an oath? Not harming living things directly unless they break a promise? Like how Wit said Odium could wipe out all of Roshar if Fen broke the agreement.  Or maybe more generally not breaking promises.

Or Odium used it as a weapon. For all we know one of the Shards he splintered had a second vessel before their demise.

[who_slew_aicirtap she/they]

I really hate Szeth's highspren.

Also, I think I've finally been convinced that Adolin is going to die, which I am not happy about.

[BinarySecond]

4 minutes ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

I really hate Szeth's highspren.

Also, I think I've finally been convinced that Adolin is going to die, which I am not happy about.

Yeah that was wack "Don't have emotions because you're back home you big idiot! Be demure!" 

Screw Highspren, all my homies hate Highspren

[+Child of Hodor]

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Is that just me or did they just disregard the possibility that the Skybreakers will attack Urithiru?

13 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

This is definitely whats going to happen. Theres no way they have someone mention that the tower is safe 3 chapters in a row if the tower certainly isn't safe.

The Sibling's anti-Odium measures wouldn't work on the Skybreakers. That's smart. And yeah, they won't leave Navani with nothing to do all book.  

I hope it's not another occupation I had enough of that last book. Maybe it will be more of an assassination attempt on the Sibling via anti-Towerlight. I assume the Skybreakers can't unmake the Sibling and anyone who could can't get close now that it is at full power. Have to kill them. 

[BrickMamba]

Still no name drop for Szeth’s highspren. Hmm. Is it possible that his spren is Aux?

[who_slew_aicirtap she/they]

Just now, BrickMamba said:

Still no name drop for Szeth’s highspren. Hmm. Is it possible that his spren is Aux?

I feel like Aux is too compassionate to be the same spren. I wonder if he will be introduced in this book though

[Siamer]

The Siblings mention of three Stormfather being different now is interesting. I feel like this line plus seeing how different the Stormfather was to Gavilar means we're definetly gonna learn alot about him this book. I don't think this is Stormfaker or anything like that, but I'm curious why he is so different now.

Also, a little sad to see Navani still not speak up during the council. I know she has further to go as her journey as a radiant and finding her confidence/ self worth. But she is a Bondsmith as well and I want to see her challenge and discuss with Dalinar and his plans. I want to see her lead more! (Hopfully a potential Skybreaker assault on the tower might help give her that push.) She definetly need to take charge and actually get Dalinae and Adolin talk since theyre incapable of doing it themselves at this point. That is going to be one amazing scene having thoose two work through their issues finally.

[anna she/her]

44 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Also, if Azimir falls so does Emul. There goes the one country I thought would be fine…

This chapter brought up how the Azish Empire is essentially 10 independent countries paying lip-service to the Emperor. They could dissolve the Empire 20 minutes before the contest, sacrificing Azir  and saving the other nine countries.

 

44 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Quote

a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago.

This makes it sound like Rayse inherited a promise from Adonalsium that he wishes he could break. I wonder what it is? Not harming Hoid or not harming former Dawnshards generally unless they break an oath? Not harming living things directly unless they break a promise? Like how Wit said Odium could wipe out all of Roshar if Fen broke the agreement.  

Ever since Dawnshard came out, I've been convinced that Rayse was a Dawnshard pre-shattering (mostly because he was supposed to be unlikable, so why would the rest of the future-vessels even bother recruiting him?). Rayse could have attempted to do something against the Intent of his Dawnshard, and learned he was unable to act.

[Ironeyes]

33 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

Yeah that was wack "Don't have emotions because you're back home you big idiot! Be demure!" 

Screw Highspren, all my homies hate Highspren

I originally thought the Skybreakers were messed up because Nale's insanity infected their culture. Now I'm beginning to think the spren themselves are the cause. Which sucks because that's the order whose ideals best fit me, but their incarnation in the books is repugnant. 

[Subvisual Haze]

I get that in universe there needs to be a board meeting where people get assigned to the C, D, and E plots but its kind of boring to read about.  And drawing even more attention to silly rules lawyering arguments (Odium can exploit the rules but you can't because the inscrutable rules say so) seems awkward.

What character stuff we got was good.  Poor Szeth, everyone else's spren seems supportive in some way, Szeth's spren just encourages him to be worse and won't even tell him his name.  I also like Szeth's unique perspective (super black and white thinking), wish we spent more time with him.  

Dalinar and Adolin's conflict is very believable from both sides.  Which one is going to tragically die leaving the other full of regret about unresolved conflict?

[Ashbringer he/him]

17 minutes ago, anna said:

This chapter brought up how the Azish Empire is essentially 10 independent countries paying lip-service to the Emperor. They could dissolve the Empire 20 minutes before the contest, sacrificing Azir  and saving the other nine countries.

I think Wit points out that doing similar things like this - changing the capitals, or changing the definition of the Empire - would be breaking the Contract. Which Wit also pointed out they cannot afford to do. Maybe there's some loophole they could find, but it may not be worth the risk to test them.

21 minutes ago, Ironeyes said:

I originally thought the Skybreakers were messed up because Nale's insanity infected their culture. Now I'm beginning to think the spren themselves are the cause. Which sucks because that's the order whose ideals best fit me, but their incarnation in the books is repugnant. 

The highspren seemed perfectly on board with killing all the new Radiants. However, Aux seemed to be much more... not a jerk than Szeth's spren is. I do wonder if we're missing something. Maybe this is a test of the spren, to see if Szeth follows his Oaths (which are notably to Dalinar, not the Law as the highspren suggests) or gives in to outside pressure once again.

[listerfeend]

1 hour ago, paperstones said:

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

This is definitely whats going to happen. Theres no way they have someone mention that the tower is safe 3 chapters in a row if the tower certainly isn't safe.

I agree. I also think that with the conversation between Navani and the Sibling with how they can do things the ancient Radiants couldn’t, she will be instrumental with defending the tower. Using it in a way it hasn’t before.

I struggle with this because that feels like it would just be a rehash of RoW at that point. The Tower was already taken over, under attack, etc... So, even if this is what happens, it seems like it won't be a major point of the conflict?

[Ninth of the Night]

10 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

The highspren seemed perfectly on board with killing all the new Radiants. However, Aux seemed to be much more... not a jerk than Szeth's spren is. I do wonder if we're missing something. Maybe this is a test of the spren, to see if Szeth follows his Oaths (which are notably to Dalinar, not the Law as the highspren suggests) or gives in to outside pressure once again.

There's a lot of time between now and when Sunlit Man takes place. Lots of possibilities. There could be generally something wrong with the highspren that gets fixed and makes them more in line with how Aux behaves.

Or it could just be simple individuality.

Let's not forget that Szeth also carries one of the most dangerous weapons in the cosmere, that which could easily destroy a spren.

[therunner he/him]

That Szeth comment on cowardice felt OOC, but i'll reserve my judgement.

I think the Coalition chapter sort of shows why Bondsmiths don't have "Leading" as their Divine attribute. As leader you have to make decisions which might involve comprises that make no-one happy, whereas as Bondsmith you should unite. It feels to me that Dalinar is trying so much to be leader of Coalition, that he is failing to be Bondsmith (both in not being the one to help others see necessity of compromise, and in ignoring his son).

Also, interesting that old Radiants were unable to do the Lightweaving map. Is it because Dalinar is first to bond Stormfather as he is now, or because restrictions on Surges are falling away?

[Sedside she/her]

29 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I struggle with this because that feels like it would just be a rehash of RoW at that point. The Tower was already taken over, under attack, etc... So, even if this is what happens, it seems like it won't be a major point of the conflict?

I agree. Not only RoW, but OB as well, there was an attack on Urithiru during Thaylen battle. Two times they did it and failed, and now the Sibling is restored, the new Bondsmith is fully aware of everything happening in the tower and all the spren there (or something, I'm not sure) with no need to even sleep, and they are going to try it again? I doubt it.