Chapters 16, 17 & 18

[LewsTherinTelescope]

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't see why it can't start forming while the spren is still in the Cognitive Realm.

The bond has trouble when you go too far away, if the spren is still in the Cognitive then they're not even on the same plane of existence. Kaladin doesn't get powers when Syl is talking to him from... wherever she's talking to him from at the end of WoR, only when she's pulled back over to the Physical.

52 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, I know Ivory is alone, yet due to how Inkspren interacted with Jasnah in the prologue, it looks like Inkspren behave in the same way as Cryptics - they are judging from CR. For me this was more like Ivory (assuming it was him, which I think it was) was testing Jasnah rather than seriously trying to kill her. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as it seems we interpret it very differently.

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It says Shallan didn't recognize Pattern as the voice she heard when she Soulcasted, Pattern doesn't remember it so it most likely wasn't Pattern.

Sure? You're assuming the second one was him rather than being the same not-him voice, though.

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Add to this the WoB saying that if Shallan didn't try to summon her Shardblade, she wouldn't have been able to Soulcast. 

Yes, I agree the voice in the first scene was Testament (probably? sorta? kinda?).

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Missed that, yes she said it in her mind a moment before. Would that count?

It does for her Second Ideal, as you pointed out earlier.

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It doesn't matter - my point was that Lift didn't get any influx of power when swearing an Oath.

No, but she can't use Stormlight in the first place, so I would expect it to manifest differently for her anyway. And in the moment where IMO she realizes what to say, she gets struck by something she analogizes to "a jolt of power", which seems like intentional writing to me. Lift has a lot of association with the Cognitive (closer to it so she can touch Wyndle, can break into the visions somehow, both her Ideals seem to be sworn mentally), so her oath effect being more Cognitive makes sense to me.

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

She did, she spoke directly to voices. She knew they were the reasons she saw Shadesmar and she had enough of the intent and knowledge to say the Truth.

And yet, the only thing we know is that at least one of those times it was not Pattern. So why can't it apply to your question about Testament too?

45 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, she inhaled Stormlight in ch 8, I said she was Lightweaving, but it didn't say she inhaled all of her light. 

She was "frantic", why would she be rationing?

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Innocent friend? You mean a lover, a person Shallan knew destroyed her family, who tried to kill her father?

Sorry, pronoun ambiguity there, I meant Testament who was Shallan's innocent friend.

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why wouldn't she be afraid if she needed reassurance to face the darkness spreading in her family?

I did not say she would not be afraid, I said she would not be as afraid of herself.

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Do you think Shallan is at 4th Ideal with both Testament and Pattern right now?

Yes.*

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

How did she this while constantly repressing the knowledge of Testament?

She didn't, at least not entirely. You're assuming these kinds of things have to be all or nothing, which I disagree with given the cut itself was not all or nothing in the first place.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

where is her second Shardplate

We don't know how Plate works with two spren of the same kind.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

or at least why her one plate isn't made out of spren belonging to both Pattern and Testament, like Nomad's was

Who says it isn't?

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I do believe as a child she reached the 4th Ideal, thus she should have platespren that created a plate before, yet all current spren did it for the first time.

I disagree with the premise that she reached the Fourth Ideal as a child. We know killing her mother was the first time the Blade formed, which implies to me she had only just hit the Third. Plus the Davars don't seem to have any Shardplate lying around, and also you'd think it would have protected Shallan when her mother came at her with a knife.

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why did you count "I'm terrified" as two separate Truths, when Shallan said "she said it before?"

Because the new Ideal builds on it in a much deeper way. Kaladin's Third and Fourth Ideals aren't actually something separate from his Second, merely realizations about it. Why can't Shallan's work the same way? "I'm terrified", "I'm a murderer", "I'm afraid most of all of myself", under this theory they build on one another.

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And what if "I killed my mother/spren" counts as a Truth, why isn't she at 5th Ideal with a fully restored Testament?

Because as I have said repeatedly I don't believe they are full Ideals, they're steps along the way. When she talks about killing her mother she's still lying too much for calling it "a truth" to fit (IMO), and when she talks about killing her spren it's focused on the event rather than on her (but this does get her close enough for the creationspren to begin reacting).

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Shallan even said in OB "I killed my mother" was a Truth, it's out and she can't hide it anymore

Because it's part of the picture even though it's not the entire thing. She's also denying to herself that there is more to say about the event, which means she has to pretend it was the full Ideal on its own.

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

She said the same about "I killed my father" - she counts is as a Truth, but she doesn't count "I'm terrified as a Truth.

She does not specifically say "that one was an Ideal", but that is not the same thing as saying "that one was not".

[RPG spoilers]

Spoiler

For what it's worth the RPG explicitly calls "I'm terrified" her Second Ideal:

Quote

For the Second Ideal, the truth you admit to yourself can be a simple emotional one; Lightweaver Shallan Davar merely admitted to being afraid when she had been trying to convince herself she was fearless.

Of course, as I myself said some of the RPG should be taken with a grain of salt, but figured I'd point it out just in case.

 

5 minutes ago, Confused said:

Change of subject... Rayse became ROd. Taravangian became TOd. I think Gavinor should assume the Odium Shard and became GOd. 

"Godchamp" is my new favorite way to refer to child champion theory now

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

On 10/1/2024 at 10:02 PM, Confused said:

Who is Colot on Dalinar’s guard who doesn’t want to bond a spren?

Colot is Knights of Wind and Truth author confirmed! /s  (sorry couldn't resist the crempost)

He has shown up a lot this book which makes me think either he is going to die, perhaps heroically, or he's a spy.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

Does Testament's Blade scream? I forget if that was established or not.

I think Shallan's 4th Oath with Pattern (Terrified/Killed Father/ 'Something' in RoW, probably from Veil), then either 2nd or 3rd Oath with Testament (Terrified/Killed Mother). If Testament wasn't fully recovered at 4th Oath, then that would mean Shallan swore all 5 Oaths with Testament basically before any other Radiant even managed to make a full bond - which is possible, I suppose, but it seems unlikely.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sure? You're assuming the second one was him rather than being the same not-him voice, though.

Oh, you mean the voice during "I killed my father?" She didn't summon Testament this time, she didn't wonder to whom it belonged in the same quote, she was only confused about the voice she heard during her first Soulcasting. 

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yes, I agree the voice in the first scene was Testament (probably? sorta? kinda?).

So you think that and the next Ideal spoken to Testament was carried over to Pattern? She bonded Pattern and was immediately at the 3rd Ideal? 

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And yet, the only thing we know is that at least one of those times it was not Pattern. So why can't it apply to your question about Testament too?

Because Shallan was suppressing Testament in her mind, so it took special circumstances, when she was thinking about her and was summoning her, for Shallan to swear an Ideal to Testament - which didn't fully count because she had to reswear it again in WaT with the full intent behind it. 

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I disagree with the premise that she reached the Fourth Ideal as a child.

So she wasn't at the 4th Ideal when she was a kid, but she is now at the 4th Ideal with Testament, so why is Testament still a Deadeye? If one track theory is correct that would mean she was 5th Ideal Radiant as a kid (which I find unlikely). 

Spoiler

Questioner

The dead Shardblades, could you possibly get Stormlight into them to reawaken them?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Shardblade, could you pump enough Stormlight into them? That alone would not be enough.

Questioner

So you would have to find someone to re-swear with oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something broken on the Spiritual Realm because of the broken oath and simple Stormlight will not fix that.

Questioner

So say--

Brandon Sanderson

If the person were still alive and could re-swear the oath then yes.

Questioner

But someone like [...] could go [...] the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not outside of reason but it would be very, very, very difficult.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

RPG spoilers:

Spoiler

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

For what it's worth the RPG explicitly calls "I'm terrified" her Second Ideal:

Yes, with Testament

 

I was going to respond to all your points, but I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. I think it may be better to agree to disagree. We can't even agree which words were her Truths. I believe there is enough evidence that "I killed my mother" was Shallan's Truth, even if there was a deeper truth hidden within it by a new lie (because the point of this Truth was that she killed her mother, which destroyed her family, leading to Shallan killing her father). I'm not convinced by this theory, just confused. It doesn't work for me at all. And you still didn't explain how Testament's Oaths reconstruction and her revival works in your theory. For me, the matter is very simple - per WoB above, Shallan has to just reswear her broken Oaths. As I understand your theory, Testament should have been revived by now. 

I'm interested to hear what others think is happening with Shallan and her Truths. Which theory is more likely in your opinion, which words were Shallan's Truths, how reconstruction of Testament's Oaths works?

 

Edit:

11 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Does Testament's Blade scream? I forget if that was established or not.

No Shardblade screamed in Shallan's mind in WoR. I believe every time Shallan summoned her Shardblade in WoR was Testament, not Pattern and Lightweavers just like any other order get their blades at the 3rd Ideal - which was just confirmed in a recent chapter (which started this whole discussion). WaT ch 16:

Quote

All of her agents were full Lightweavers, having spoken the First Ideal and at least one truth. None of those here were Shardbearers yet, but Gaz and Red were close.

As for why Testament didn't scream in Shallan's mind, she knew the risk of bonding and was probably "content" as a Deadeye - just like Shardplate spren are. Or maybe it's because her bond wasn't fully broken as there was no full intent behind it and that was enough to prevent Testament from screaming (after all, Shallan still had some Surgebinding abilities, in RoW ch 115 she remembered that she used her powers after breaking the bond with Testament but before bonding Pattern).

Edited October 4, 2024 by alder24

[Master Silver]

17 hours ago, Confused said:

Change of subject... Rayse became ROd. Taravangian became TOd. I think Gavinor should assume the Odium Shard and became GOd. 

lol nice. I dub thee the king's Wit

[+robardin he/him]

20 hours ago, Confused said:

Change of subject... Rayse became ROd. Taravangian became TOd. I think Gavinor should assume the Odium Shard and became GOd. 

Gavinor? He's what, six years old? He's gonna pick up Odium? Pfah!

You want a "GOd" for Odium, you need to go to the Original G in Stormlight Archives, from TWoK.

That's right. I'm talkin' GAZ-Od!

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

So you think that and the next Ideal spoken to Testament was carried over to Pattern? She bonded Pattern and was immediately at the 3rd Ideal? 

More or less. It's messy because as you note she still hasn't actually acknowledged her memories of Testament, so the Ideals are probably still a little frayed until the end of Rhythm of War, but roughly Third Ideal yeah.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Because Shallan was suppressing Testament in her mind, so it took special circumstances, when she was thinking about her and was summoning her, for Shallan to swear an Ideal to Testament - which didn't fully count because she had to reswear it again in WaT with the full intent behind it. 

Ah, I suspect we're interpreting the WoB about needing to summon her Blade differently. The way I interpret that situation is that by summoning her she briefly revived her (I believe we know that's how that works?). Swearing her Second Ideal then kept Testament kind of alive enough to swear the Third Ideal and use her powers through that bond without needing to summon her again at the end of the book.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

So she wasn't at the 4th Ideal when she was a kid, but she is now at the 4th Ideal with Testament, so why is Testament still a Deadeye?

Pattern mentions that the break being ragged is "in some ways ... worse" (W&T 1), which I believe is making it harder to fix her as easily as Kaladin did Syl. She is making progress, though (RoW 115).

Spoiler

“Can I heal her?” Shallan asked. “Maybe if I… if I bond her again?”

“I think, after talking to Kelek…” Pattern said. “I think you are still bonded to her.”

“But…” Shallan glanced over her shoulder at him. “I broke the bond. That did this.”

“Some breaks are messy,” Pattern said. “A slice with a sharpened knife is clean; a slice with a dull one is ragged. Your break, done by a child without full Intent, is ragged. In some ways that makes it worse, but it does mean that some Connection between you two persists.”

Spoiler

Shallan put down the pen, then took his hands, glancing to the side where—in their little chamber in Lasting Integrity—her first spren sat on a chair, Pattern standing beside her and humming. Had the limp fibers of her head pattern straightened?

 

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

If one track theory is correct that would mean she was 5th Ideal Radiant as a kid (which I find unlikely). 

Oh god no. I mean, who knows with Shallan, but probably not lmao.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I think it may be better to agree to disagree.

That's fair. I'll clarify my answers to the questions in the rest of that paragraph for the sake of anyone else watching, but I don't mind dropping the argument.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

And you still didn't explain how Testament's Oaths reconstruction and her revival works in your theory. For me, the matter is very simple - per WoB above, Shallan has to just reswear her broken Oaths. As I understand your theory, Testament should have been revived by now. 

Reconstruction: I think this is primarily in book 1 when she reaches* the Second and Third Ideals again (not the same words she swore as a kid obviously since she was not yet a murderer, but similar level of self-reflection), and also in books 4 and 5 now in a less formal way now that she's acknowledging Testament again and rebuilding the Connection more mundanely.

Revival: I'm not sure what it will take to revive her fully, as it hasn't happened yet.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

(after all, Shallan still had some Surgebinding abilities, in RoW ch 115 she remembered that she used her powers after breaking the bond with Testament but before bonding Pattern)

Yeah, we see her Memories still functional for example, and in WoR 45 she starts to draw upon Stormlight before backing out.

Spoiler

She blinked tears. She saw it. Stormfather, but she saw it. She heard her mother's voice, saw Jushu giving up spheres to Balat as he lost the duel, but laughing as he paid, uncaring of the loss. She could feel the air, smell the scents, hear the sounds of songlings in the brush. Almost, it became real.

Wisps of Light rose before her. The messenger had gotten out a handful of spheres and held them toward her while staring into her eyes. The steamy Stormlight rose between them. Shallan lifted her fingers, the image of her ideal life wrapped around her like a comforter.

No.

She drew back. The misty light faded.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, I suspect we're interpreting the WoB about needing to summon her Blade differently. The way I interpret that situation is that by summoning her she briefly revived her (I believe we know that's how that works?). Swearing her Second Ideal then kept Testament kind of alive enough to swear the Third Ideal and use her powers through that bond without needing to summon her again at the end of the book.

There’s a line somewhere about Blades being summoned by the deadeye better synchronizing with the bonded human - but that’s true of all deadeye Blades, not just Testament. 

I think drawing a stronger Connection to Testament would allow Pattern to perhaps manifest abilites before he normally could, though. I still think Shallan just re-swore her 2nd Ideal to Testament here in WaT, and everything before was Pattern.

Part of the confusion is I don’t recall if Shallan actually ever swore her 1st Ideal onscreen (or at all) - but it seems like that Oath can be done unconsiously or without so much Intent. Kaladin and Eshonai are both similar.

It could be that something similar happened to her that happened to Kaladin in WoR - she went back on several Truths, and rejected Testament as a spren, but never fundamentally revoked the 1st Ideal like the Recreance Radiants did.

[Master Silver]

I can't say I have read ALL of the back and forth on Shallan. But I do think that she is 4th ideal with Pattern and starting to reform her bond with Testament. If we remember when Kaladin nearly killed Syl, it took him swearing a new ideal to fully heal the bond. Side note, those couple of chapters are likely my favorite of everything Brandon has written.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Pattern mentions that the break being ragged is "in some ways ... worse" (W&T 1), which I believe is making it harder to fix her as easily as Kaladin did Syl. She is making progress, though (RoW 115).

  Reveal hidden contents

“Can I heal her?” Shallan asked. “Maybe if I… if I bond her again?”

“I think, after talking to Kelek…” Pattern said. “I think you are still bonded to her.”

“But…” Shallan glanced over her shoulder at him. “I broke the bond. That did this.”

“Some breaks are messy,” Pattern said. “A slice with a sharpened knife is clean; a slice with a dull one is ragged. Your break, done by a child without full Intent, is ragged. In some ways that makes it worse, but it does mean that some Connection between you two persists.”

  Reveal hidden contents

Shallan put down the pen, then took his hands, glancing to the side where—in their little chamber in Lasting Integrity—her first spren sat on a chair, Pattern standing beside her and humming. Had the limp fibers of her head pattern straightened?

Addendum: literally two sentences later Pattern says he doesn't think saying more Words will be enough to fix Testament, I really should have read slightly further when searching for the quote huh

Spoiler

“So…”

“So no,” Pattern said. “I do not think that merely saying Words once more would heal her.” His head pattern spun a little more slowly, as if he were contemplating something profound. “These numbers are… perplexing, Shallan. Strangely irrational, in a sequence I do not understand. I mean… I mean that we are walking on unfamiliar ground. A better metaphor for you. Yes. Unfamiliar ground. In the deep past, deadeyes did not exist.”

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

19 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Addendum: literally two sentences later Pattern says he doesn't think saying more Words will be enough to fix Testament, I really should have read slightly further when searching for the quote huh

I took that quote to imply that she may also need Ba-Ado-Mishram to be freed/restored/wherever that plotline is going, since Pattern specifically calls out the fact that there were not deadeyes in the past.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I took that quote to imply that she may also need Ba-Ado-Mishram to be freed/restored/wherever that plotline is going, since Pattern specifically calls out the fact that there were not deadeyes in the past.

Could definitely be part of it, but it's in the specific context of him saying Testament's cut was "ragged" and thus worse than a "cleaner" deadeye cut as well, not just a general statement like the line at the end was.

[therunner he/him]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:08 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

[RPG spoilers]

  Hide contents

For what it's worth the RPG explicitly calls "I'm terrified" her Second Ideal:

Of course, as I myself said some of the RPG should be taken with a grain of salt, but figured I'd point it out just in case.

 

Hmm, if that was her Second Ideal, it could not have been to Pattern, since he was not with her yet.
Could it be that TWoK "I'm terrified." was a Second Ideal somewhat sworn to Testament, and "Killed my spren also to her" if it counts?

Then "Killed Father/Killed Mother/I'm terrified 2.0" to Pattern, to get her to 4th Ideal at the start of WaT?

By this, she technically did swear more truths/Ideals than Kaladin did by end of WoR, yet was not actually further in her Oaths.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Hmm, if that was her Second Ideal, it could not have been to Pattern, since he was not with her yet.
Could it be that TWoK "I'm terrified." was a Second Ideal somewhat sworn to Testament, and "Killed my spren also to her" if it counts?

Then "Killed Father/Killed Mother/I'm terrified 2.0" to Pattern, to get her to 4th Ideal at the start of WaT?

By this, she technically did swear more truths/Ideals than Kaladin did by end of WoR, yet was not actually further in her Oaths.

That is more or less the question alder and I have been arguing about this whole time, lol. I disagree with the premise that she has separate levels with each spren, as I've laid out in my past messages in this thread.

[Elder]

On 10/2/2024 at 8:16 AM, alder24 said:

Stormlight RPG spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

I couldn't find the source of this quote myself:

Even if you bond a spren of the same type, you need to swear new, unique Ideals, reflecting on how you've changed since you said them to the first spren. You might not have changed much and be ready to swear all the way up to the 5th Ideal, but if you changed, you need new Oaths.

Well, Shallan's Truth's with Pattern are all about how she changed since her bond with Testament, uncovering all truths she hid behind lies, reflecting on what happened to her since her bond with Testament. "I killed my father," "I killed my mother," "I killed my spren" - that's what happened to her since she swore those Ideals to Testament.

Testament's first Truths were "spoken easily with the solemnity and wonder of a child" (RoW ch 93), those are the ones she broke, those are the ones she needs to reconstruct. For this the Truth "I'm terrified" fits the most and even in WaT ch 9 Shallan admits that she always has been terrified - it's not something new, it's not a change, it's something that existed during her bond with Testament. 

She said that in WoK, she took that step forward, but then she repressed it, maybe didn't want to fully comprehend it and took a step backward - that's why she needed to say it again in WaT, this time with the full understanding and Intent behind it. The same maybe applies to "I killed my mother" - she said the Truth, it was accepted, but since then she tried her hardest to repress it, which was a step backward. It wasn't enough to break her bond or nullify this Ideal. I highly doubt you can have an Ideal accepted but then fall below it, but she took a step back after taking a step forward. Maybe those two things are the reason why she always struggled with Soulcasting? She did it with Testament in WoK, but she regressed, just like she regressed with Pattern later?

 

So did Eshonai? We've never seen her said the First Ideal on pages, yet the Stormfather accepted her Second Ideal. Kaladin said it for the first time in WoK ch 59 - a looong time after he started to bond with Syl. Lift also never said those words on pages. I think living by the First Ideal is enough, you don't have to say it out loud, you need to embrace them. Or maybe she did say them some time before WoK started, we just didn't see this happening on pages (I prefer the former).

I wouldn't call it a burst of light, rather just light from her glowing eyes being reflected by beads - glowing eyes are normal when you hold a lot of Stormlight in your body. No burst of power, no glyph and frost appeared - the same is true for other Radiants when they swear their Oaths, like Lift or Venli (except Windrunners). None of them get a burst of power or Stormlight after swearing a new Ideal. Even when Dalinar spoke the First and Second Ideal nothing happened. Shallan however did a powerful Lightweaving afterwards, I wouldn't be surprised if she just inhaled all Stormlight she had with her - hence glowing eyes. Actually, she used so much Stormlight that she ran out in her next chapter. Looks like substantiation requires a lot of Stormlight. WaT ch 9:

WaT ch 11:

 

 

 

This wasn't a formal Oath, which does allow Taravangian to argue he's not breaking it or maybe that he's not bound by it. The wording of this promise is vague anyway, RoW ch 112:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

 

He was mentioned for the first time in OB ch 9:

I think he just felt useless waiting for a spren to bond, when he could serve Dalinar in a different role instead. He looks like a man of action. You don't get to be a Radiant because of cool powers, you do it because you want to help - and if Colot was unable to become a full Radiant, maybe he chose to help in a different way. But this does raise an eyebrow. 

Good point with the WoB on the other shard and how seriously the other shards took the agreement.

Worth pointing out, 5/6 of those shards died.  The 6th has been hiding.  I’m not saying they’re complete oathbreakers who deserved what they got.  But, Odium had enough of an advantage to take on 2 of them at once.  We don’t necessarily know how…. But maybe deviance from this lesser agreement (or accepted suggestion even) gave them enough of a disadvantage to be exploited 

Edited October 5, 2024 by Elder

[Isilel]

13 hours ago, Elder said:

But, Odium had enough of an advantage to take on 2 of them at once

 

He may have had help from Autonomy? Also, he went after Ambition, who _was_ alone as per agreement/suggestion, so his justifications don't hold water either way. 

Ruin's and Preservation's deaths have nothing to do with Odium, but are the result of their attempt to bind their dangerous powers. Certainly, Ruin freely rampaging through the cosmere would have been much worse - even from Odium's PoV, I imagine.

Anyway, about something completely different - I had a thought about Shallan and Co. being about to tap into an obvious Ghostblood trap - maybe Renarin/Rlain would foresee the outcome and stop them in the nick of time? Or otherwise help them to survive it without too much damage?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I disagree with the premise that she has separate levels with each spren, as I've laid out in my past messages in this thread.

Im not entirely caught up, but I seem to remember that the RPG states you must be the same bond level with both spren to get that levels advantage - as in both level 3 to get blade, which implies there are two distinct levels. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

… I had a thought about Shallan and Co. being about to tap into an obvious Ghostblood trap - maybe Renarin/Rlain would foresee the outcome and stop them in the nick of time? Or otherwise help them to survive it without too much damage?

Oh, I like that. So far we haven’t seen Renarin’s Odiumvision do much for Team Dalinar, after all.

He foresaw the arrival of the Everstorm, which didn’t really give any insight as to how to stop it;

He foresaw “most likely” but ultimately false futures, of Jasnah striking him down and Dalinar succumbing to Odium at Thaylen Fields, and he was overjoyed to find that what he saw “could be wrong” — that “the future is not set”

And apparently he foresaw something about Taravangian’s fate when he passed him that note.

Any other Renarin visions we know about? He says to Dalinar that he mostly keeps them to himself, as he’s not sure how much of what he sees is influenced by what Odium (consciously or more likely, unconsciously) wants him to see, or at least desires.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Im not entirely caught up, but I seem to remember that the RPG states you must be the same bond level with both spren to get that levels advantage - as in both level 3 to get blade, which implies there are two distinct levels. 

I replied to the RPG argument here. TL;DR the oath rules are gamified in a way that contradicts the books, and this section isn't even in the "default rules" anyway, but if we do take them at face value then a different section suggests she's said at most three truths anyway so she shouldn't have the Patternblade even now if they're truly separate levels as people suggest.

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Also, he went after Ambition, who _was_ alone as per agreement/suggestion, so his justifications don't hold water either way. 

We learn in RoW that Mercy was involved in the clash too, so I don't think we can assume this after all.

Regardless, though, we know the wording leaves them room to agree to settle[1] and Honor at least believes he kept his word[2], so this doesn't seem to be how he beat them anyway. He does seem to have relied on that justification to keep other Shards like Endowment from stopping him, though.

[1]

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

[2]

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

[Elder]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I replied to the RPG argument here. TL;DR the oath rules are gamified in a way that contradicts the books, and this section isn't even in the "default rules" anyway, but if we do take them at face value then a different section suggests she's said at most three truths anyway so she shouldn't have the Patternblade even now if they're truly separate levels as people suggest.

We learn in RoW that Mercy was involved in the clash too, so I don't think we can assume this after all.

Regardless, though, we know the wording leaves them room to agree to settle[1] and Honor at least believes he kept his word[2], so this doesn't seem to be how he beat them anyway. He does seem to have relied on that justification to keep other Shards like Endowment from stopping him, though.

[1]

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

[2]

  Reveal hidden contents

Mason Wheeler

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Thank you.

may I suggest that how well they are upholding their word is more of a personal issue.  That and we really don’t know how it went down.

Odium can look at any of them who settled together, consider that they didn’t follow the agreement and use his righteous anger to fuel/help him align with his own power.

Honor can have been present when the agreement was made.  If it’s a wording issue, where they agreed not to interfere with one another, his wife invites him to her world and he accepts.  Therefore no rules broken.  No interference involved.  Doesn’t stop Odium from getting fuel from his own anger.