Adolin, Odium, and the Contest

[Malim he/him]

Quote

He’d thought waiting would let the pain fade. It had instead festered. He found himself more angry than he’d been when he’d first found out.

Adolin - Chapter 15

I have seen several people both here and on Reactor note Adolin's internal monologue in the latest released chapters.  It actually gave me a bit of a chill when I read it.  I have long been a... not fan I would say, of the the Gavinor as Champion theory, but I have always seen it as a possibility.  This however has me thinking along a different line, and it is one that I apparently am not alone in, nor is it one I would like to see happen, but it may have been foreshadowed: Adolin as Odium's Champion. 

 

There are serious issues with this theory, but they may all be explainable. 

1) Adolin would never go against Dalinar.  As the quote above shows, there is some resentment, honestly well earned, between Adolin and his father over what happened to Evi.  Adolin adored his mother, and the revelation of what his father did to her almost broke him.  He still wants a reconciliation, but the truth of that resentment is still there.  Could that be a seed that Odium can exploit?

 

2) Even if Adolin would go against Dalinar, he would never turn on Roshar.  What if there was a way around this?  What if Adolin could be led to believe that he wasn't really going against Roshar.

Quote

And he had an important mission, the same that he’d given himself years ago when he’d seen the threat to Kharbranth—then had moved to save it. He was the one who could both see the coming danger and be willing to stop it.

-TOdium Interlude 2

TOdium at the very least sees himself as something more than just an embodiment of hate.  He sees himself as the embodiment of passion, and even more as a voice for those who have been forgotten by the other Shards.  In other words, he sees himself as the embodiment of Divine Rage.  This may or may not be true, as at least to me, he is the definition of an unreliable narrator, but it is a compelling argument.  One that might resonate with a proto-Edgedancer?

 

3) Adolin would never go against Shallan.  What if there was someone, or a group of people who can use that for their own ends?

Quote

Mraize will try to hurt me, love. Prove that I was foolish to cross him. To get to me, he’ll capture or kill you if he can. I have to act before he does.”

Shallan - Chapter 15

Mraize and the Ghostbloods are still around.  They still have their own goals and plans.  This may play into their hand.  Threaten Shallan in a real way, which I do believe to be in their power, approach Adolin, and make an offer.  Accept the role as Odium's Champion, defeat Dalinar, and in return, we will forget Shallan.  What do they get? Odium is free, but perhaps so is BAM.  They have worked with Fused before, I see no difficulty in them approaching TOdium with an offer like this.  Sure most likely they will be on opposite sides of the larger Cosmere War, but this, at least in the short term, gets both sides their goals.

 

4) Odium's Champion must be willing.  So this is what is put to Adolin by TOdium: your father is not the paragon you once thought, there is a larger war coming that no one can stop, I alone am capable and willing to protect the ones who have been forgotten by all of this, and by the way, I will get the Ghostbloods to call off their vendetta against your wife and her family.  All told, this is a powerful argument. 

 

Will this happen?  It remains to be seen, but at least to me, it appears to be a very real possibility. 

Edited September 23, 2024 by Malim
Kept misspelling TOdium

[slavagh he/him]

    I agree. It is possible to exploit Adolin's resentment of his father and persuade him that TOdium is better for Roshar. But not in his current state. A lot of groundwork needs to be done to justify his shift. 
    I also agree that Shallan is the biggest stumbling block here. Just threatening here won't work for me. You either need to bring her to Odium's side or kill her (especially not by Odium's forces). Odium can play his 'give me your pain' card in this situation.
    I am afraid this is where the book is going with Adolin. He is the most gut-punching choice for the Odium's champion.
Sadly, I'm not fond of this choice at all. It may ruin an amazing character for me. He is a far better choice for Dalinar's champion.

[Malim he/him]

2 minutes ago, slavagh said:

    I agree. It is possible to exploit Adolin's resentment of his father and persuade him that TOdium is better for Roshar. But not in his current state. A lot of groundwork needs to be done to justify his shift. 

This is true, and the timeline would seem to make this a real obstacle to overcome.  I still think it could be done though.  Chapter 15 is called Passionspren after all.  What could in an instant change a person?  Passion, heat of the moment.  Put a literal or figurative, but imminent, knife to Shallan's throat, and hit Adolin with the listed arguments.  It might be hard for Adolin in that moment to say no.

[slavagh he/him]

6 minutes ago, Malim said:

This is true, and the timeline would seem to make this a real obstacle to overcome.  I still think it could be done though.  Chapter 15 is called Passionspren after all.  What could in an instant change a person?  Passion, heat of the moment.  Put a literal or figurative, but imminent, knife to Shallan's throat, and hit Adolin with the listed arguments.  It might be hard for Adolin in that moment to say no.

There is another problematic thing. You need to separate Adolin and Maya for all of this to work. I doubt she will be OK with this. 

[Malim he/him]

1 minute ago, slavagh said:

There is another problematic thing. You need to separate Adolin and Maya for all of this to work. I doubt she will be OK with this. 

Agreed.  I hadn't thought of that.  The only way I could see it is if in the moment, Adolin chose Shallan over Maya, which frankly he probably would, but that might fully Deadeye Maya again.  That would be interesting as it could leave him without a Blade for the Contest, or at least with severe difficulties in summoning and using her as he is used to.

[slavagh he/him]

1 minute ago, Malim said:

Agreed.  I hadn't thought of that.  The only way I could see it is if in the moment, Adolin chose Shallan over Maya, which frankly he probably would, but that might fully Deadeye Maya again.  That would be interesting as it could leave him without a Blade for the Contest, or at least with severe difficulties in summoning and using her as he is used to.

You can even corrupt Maya and his shard plate. That may explain the black shardplate from Honor's vision in Oathbringer. Adolin also fits in 'something terribly familiar in them' eyes description of the champion. But I really hope nothing of this happens. I would prefer literally anyone else for the champion role.

[The Stick]

I think that this is all irrelevant in the simple fact that I really doubt that Adolin could ever beat Dalinar. He was the Blackthorn, and now he is Bondsmith, he can demolish Adolin any day of the week. Nor do I think that Sanderson is going a "Dalinar can't kill Adolin arc". Instead, if he goes through with it, I believe Dalinar will honestly kill Adolin, then either go into exile, or finally give Odium his pain, which let's Taravangian do what he wanted all along. I believe this is the key, it is not Dalinar breaking the terms, rather, it is Taravangian putting Dalinar into a position so overrun with pain, he surrenders to Odium.

[Ashbringer he/him]

One of the ways I've thought that the 10-year timeskip could end up making sense is if Odium picks a champion who Dalinar is unable to kill, but same vice versa, so they just end up sitting on top of Urithiru for those 10 years until Dalinar finally dies of old age or exposure or something. (I keep thinking Dalinar is older than 55.)

Adolin would be a good candidate for that - I really don't think Dalinar would kill Adolin. I don't think Adolin would kill Dalinar either - it would take a lot to go that far, the Thrill's out of commission, and it's pretty hard to threaten a 4th Oath Radiant even with Mraize's resources. (Then again, it's also pretty hard to kill a Feruchemist... or a Herald...)

 

I am wondering if Dalinar's now going to climb the stairs of Urithiru, only to meet Gavinor saying that an old man said it's finally time for sword practice...

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Just remember, the Contest does not necessarily need to be a fight, it just has to be to the death.

An earlier preview chapter had Dalinar think about this possibility, and Taravangian wouldn't be so simple as to have his victory condition be bound to a mere fight, especially against a warrior like Dalinar. He'd absolutely do something tricksy. Could you imagine if he had the Contest be a staring contest? To the death? 

"The fate of Roshar rests upon Dalinar's eyelids!", so dumb but I think it's hilarious.

[Njvodin]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Just remember, the Contest does not necessarily need to be a fight, it just has to be to the death.

An earlier preview chapter had Dalinar think about this possibility, and Taravangian wouldn't be so simple as to have his victory condition be bound to a mere fight, especially against a warrior like Dalinar. He'd absolutely do something tricksy. Could you imagine if he had the Contest be a staring contest? To the death? 

"The fate of Roshar rests upon Dalinar's eyelids!", so dumb but I think it's hilarious.

Relaxing in an armchair... TO THE DEATH!

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

8 minutes ago, Njvodin said:

Relaxing in an armchair... TO THE DEATH!

A Cremling eating contest... TO THE DEATH!

[Atlas333]

Would be crazy if the story of Fleet was actually foreshadowing and the contest is a race.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

21 hours ago, slavagh said:

There is another problematic thing. You need to separate Adolin and Maya for all of this to work. I doubt she will be OK with this. 

Is there a world where Odium also promises to fully restore and heal Maya as well? I could see TOdium trying to establish that he is the new person who took over the shard, and that he is not the bad guy from before. Maybe with promises like healing Maya and the rest of the dead eyes, promising to end the war and bring all of Roshar together under one banner, and even bringing back his father from the dead (as a fused, which he already plans to do per the agreement) would be enough to push Adolin to accept. Especially if there is a threat to Shallan that his accepting of the position will help prevent or stop.

[slavagh he/him]

3 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Is there a world where Odium also promises to fully restore and heal Maya as well? I could see TOdium trying to establish that he is the new person who took over the shard, and that he is not the bad guy from before. Maybe with promises like healing Maya and the rest of the dead eyes, promising to end the war and bring all of Roshar together under one banner, and even bringing back his father from the dead (as a fused, which he already plans to do per the agreement) would be enough to push Adolin to accept. Especially if there is a threat to Shallan that his accepting of the position will help prevent or stop.

The smart thing for Dalinar to do if Adolin is the champion is to put Kaladin against him. Do you think Adolin can justify killing Kaladin?

Edited September 24, 2024 by slavagh

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

7 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

Would be crazy if the story of Fleet was actually foreshadowing and the contest is a race.

Dalinar meets a Gravitation Fused at the top.

"What is this Odium?"

"First one to that mountaintop over there wins! Ready-set-go!"

[bmcclure7]

On 9/23/2024 at 4:34 PM, Malim said:

I have seen several people both here and on Reactor note Adolin's internal monologue in the latest released chapters.  It actually gave me a bit of a chill when I read it.  I have long been a... not fan I would say, of the the Gavinor as Champion theory, but I have always seen it as a possibility.  This however has me thinking along a different line, and it is one that I apparently am not alone in, nor is it one I would like to see happen, but it may have been foreshadowed: Adolin as Odium's Champion. 

 

There are serious issues with this theory, but they may all be explainable. 

1) Adolin would never go against Dalinar.  As the quote above shows, there is some resentment, honestly well earned, between Adolin and his father over what happened to Evi.  Adolin adored his mother, and the revelation of what his father did to her almost broke him.  He still wants a reconciliation, but the truth of that resentment is still there.  Could that be a seed that Odium can exploit?

 

2) Even if Adolin would go against Dalinar, he would never turn on Roshar.  What if there was a way around this?  What if Adolin could be led to believe that he wasn't really going against Roshar.

TOdium at the very least sees himself as something more than just an embodiment of hate.  He sees himself as the embodiment of passion, and even more as a voice for those who have been forgotten by the other Shards.  In other words, he sees himself as the embodiment of Divine Rage.  This may or may not be true, as at least to me, he is the definition of an unreliable narrator, but it is a compelling argument.  One that might resonate with a proto-Edgedancer?

 

3) Adolin would never go against Shallan.  What if there was someone, or a group of people who can use that for their own ends?

Mraize and the Ghostbloods are still around.  They still have their own goals and plans.  This may play into their hand.  Threaten Shallan in a real way, which I do believe to be in their power, approach Adolin, and make an offer.  Accept the role as Odium's Champion, defeat Dalinar, and in return, we will forget Shallan.  What do they get? Odium is free, but perhaps so is BAM.  They have worked with Fused before, I see no difficulty in them approaching TOdium with an offer like this.  Sure most likely they will be on opposite sides of the larger Cosmere War, but this, at least in the short term, gets both sides their goals.

 

4) Odium's Champion must be willing.  So this is what is put to Adolin by TOdium: your father is not the paragon you once thought, there is a larger war coming that no one can stop, I alone am capable and willing to protect the ones who have been forgotten by all of this, and by the way, I will get the Ghostbloods to call off their vendetta against your wife and her family.  All told, this is a powerful argument. 

 

Will this happen?  It remains to be seen, but at least to me, it appears to be a very real possibility. 

There is several problems with this

1. Being angry at his father is one thing but would he really be willing to kill him?

 

2. Would Adolin compromise progress of revival his blade is making by siding with odium?

 

3. Why would he betray his brother?

4. Why would he betray his friend Kaliden? 
 

5. Why would he trust Travangion he knows he is the man who sent the assassin in white to kill him.

[Rorzikel]

I think both the Gavinor and Adolin hints are just red herrings, intentionally designed to play into popular theories and distract the fandom.

 

[coolsnow7]

What frustrates me is that there’s a much weaker theory that’s easier to accept but suffices for all the good observations here: namely that Adolin turns his back on Dalinar and rejects his leadership. Adolin doesn’t need to literally fight his father - whom he does love and revere - to the death, in the service of the biggest bad guy in the Cosmere, to do a lot of damage. He just needs to conclude that his father isn’t worthy of his reverence and that his ideals aren’t worth following.

To reiterate: I support all these observations. But why leap to a borderline nonsensical character arc to explain them? I’m impatient to figure out who the champion will be too.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

12 hours ago, slavagh said:

The smart thing for Dalinar to do if Adolin is the champion is to put Kaladin against him. Do you think Adolin can justify killing Kaladin?

I hope not, look at this death rattle:

Quote

I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?

[alder24]

Adolin won't ever agree to fight and kill his father, he still loves him. But that's not the point of choosing Adolin as the champion of Odium. The point is to make Dalinar unwilling to fight and break the terms, which would free Odium. For this Adolin is an ideal choice (Gavinor too tbf) and Taravangian can manipulate him into becoming his champion, promising him he won't have to fight or kill his father. This does make sense, but it would require a lot of preparation and a lot of highly unlikely set of events for Adolin to turn against his father. 

[Master Silver]

On 9/23/2024 at 3:11 PM, slavagh said:

    I agree. It is possible to exploit Adolin's resentment of his father and persuade him that TOdium is better for Roshar. But not in his current state. A lot of groundwork needs to be done to justify his shift. 
    I also agree that Shallan is the biggest stumbling block here. Just threatening here won't work for me. You either need to bring her to Odium's side or kill her (especially not by Odium's forces). Odium can play his 'give me your pain' card in this situation.
    I am afraid this is where the book is going with Adolin. He is the most gut-punching choice for the Odium's champion.
Sadly, I'm not fond of this choice at all. It may ruin an amazing character for me. He is a far better choice for Dalinar's champion.

Dalinar trusting Adolin would also show continued character growth. Dalinar is older than he was. Adolin is the better duelist. Not the better killer, but how will anyone die with unlimited stormlight or tower light or odium light?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

45 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Adolin won't ever agree to fight and kill his father, he still loves him. But that's not the point of choosing Adolin as the champion of Odium. The point is to make Dalinar unwilling to fight and break the terms, which would free Odium. For this Adolin is an ideal choice (Gavinor too tbf) and Taravangian can manipulate him into becoming his champion, promising him he won't have to fight or kill his father. This does make sense, but it would require a lot of preparation and a lot of highly unlikely set of events for Adolin to turn against his father. 

This is a great breakdown! I’d also add that Odium plans to bring back Dalinar as a fused if Dalinar dies, so even if Adolin did “kill” his father he could be put at ease a little bit knowing that Dalinar will still be coming back and Adolin won’t actually lose his father.

Plus, Shallan killed her dad so I guess it could be a bonding thing for them too? lol 

[slavagh he/him]

2 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

I hope not, look at this death rattle:

Quote

I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done?

Yeah. With Dalinar adopting Kaladin this quote is really scary.

12 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Dalinar trusting Adolin would also show continued character growth. Dalinar is older than he was. Adolin is the better duelist. Not the better killer, but how will anyone die with unlimited stormlight or tower light or odium light?

The location of the duel is really weird. How a fused champion will enter the tower? I assume the protection will need to be lifted. Something tells me both champions would not have access to Stormlight / Voidlight / Towerlight.

 

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Adolin won't ever agree to fight and kill his father, he still loves him. But that's not the point of choosing Adolin as the champion of Odium. The point is to make Dalinar unwilling to fight and break the terms, which would free Odium. For this Adolin is an ideal choice (Gavinor too tbf) and Taravangian can manipulate him into becoming his champion, promising him he won't have to fight or kill his father. This does make sense, but it would require a lot of preparation and a lot of highly unlikely set of events for Adolin to turn against his father. 

Agree. But I am not sure if the refusal of both champions to kill each other will count as 'breaking the terms'. If Dalinar refuses to fight, Adolin could just kill him. If both refuse to kill each other, which of them will count as the one who breaks them? Dalinar will need to make something stupid to break the terms.

[king of nowhere]

i really, really, really don't think it would be in character for adolin at all.

adolin is perhaps the single most honorable person in the whole saga. he's got a very strong morality framework, and he's firmly planted on the side of radiants. together with everything he cares for. while he has complete disdain for the enemy, and won't even listen to his arguments, seeing as T is a known manipulator, liar and backstabber.

now adolin would do a complete backflip in just 8 days, completely out of nowhere? he would betray all humankind - and most singerkind too, as they are being used as military slaves, cannon fodder, and body source - only because of a grudge against one single person? I think even brandon couldn't write that in a believable way.

besides, odium already tried to tempt/break dalinar and kaladin, and in both those cases it made sense, because odium offered something those characters dearly wanted. if odium now tried with adolin, it would get boring. and adolin doesn't have the glaring weaknesses of the other two

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

11 hours ago, slavagh said:

The location of the duel is really weird. How a fused champion will enter the tower? I assume the protection will need to be lifted. Something tells me both champions would not have access to Stormlight / Voidlight / Towerlight.

This is a good point, if it is a Fused that TOdium sends as champion then by the terms they would need to shut down the Sibling, Dalinar will not hurt the Sibling/Navani. 
It would also expose the Tower to attack.