Adolin, Odium, and the Contest

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i really, really, really don't think it would be in character for adolin at all.

adolin is perhaps the single most honorable person in the whole saga. he's got a very strong morality framework, and he's firmly planted on the side of radiants. together with everything he cares for. while he has complete disdain for the enemy, and won't even listen to his arguments, seeing as T is a known manipulator, liar and backstabber.

now adolin would do a complete backflip in just 8 days, completely out of nowhere? he would betray all humankind - and most singerkind too, as they are being used as military slaves, cannon fodder, and body source - only because of a grudge against one single person? I think even brandon couldn't write that in a believable way.

besides, odium already tried to tempt/break dalinar and kaladin, and in both those cases it made sense, because odium offered something those characters dearly wanted. if odium now tried with adolin, it would get boring. and adolin doesn't have the glaring weaknesses of the other two

The man murdered another man in the fit of rage not exactly the most honorable man in the series Don’t think he will want to fight his father to the death, even if he is upset at him

Edited September 26, 2024 by bmcclure7

[king of nowhere]

On 9/26/2024 at 8:07 AM, bmcclure7 said:

The man murdered another man in the fit of rage not exactly the most honorable man in the series

adolin killed sadeas for a very, very, very long list of perfectly good reasons.

no, i do not think that in any way would correlate to him wanting to kill anyone else.

[slavagh he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

adolin killed sadeas for a very, very, very long list of perfectly good reasons.

no, i do not think that in any way would correlate to him wanting to kill anyone else.

The killing was justified. The problem is that he wasn't transparent about it. He should have told Dalinar from the get-go. But I agree this can't be the justification for him turning evil. All major characters have done much worse, including Kaladin, who was a part of the plot against the king he swore to protect.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

adolin killed sadeas for a very, very, very long list of perfectly good reasons.

no, i do not think that in any way would correlate to him wanting to kill anyone else.

I don’t think it will as I sit in the other part of my post.

That being said, it really doesn’t matter what reasons he had for it. It still makes it up dishonorable act. My point was that he was not the most honorable person in the book by a longshot. As was falsely stated by the post I quoted.

8 minutes ago, slavagh said:

The killing was justified. The problem is that he wasn't transparent about it. He should have told Dalinar from the get-go. But I agree this can't be the justification for him turning evil. All major characters have done much worse, including Kaladin, who was a part of the plot against the king he swore to protect.

Yes, and they were acting in dishonor when they were doing so. Kal literally killed his spren when he did that. It was only by repenting and saying the words that he was able to regain his honor. 
 

Adolin has never done anything similar. I’m not saying that I believe he’s going to be the champion. I don’t or at least I believe we still have a long way to go before we have any proof of that. I am saying that to call him “ most honorable character” is completely false statement 

[slavagh he/him]

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes, and they were acting in dishonor when they were doing so. Kal literally killed his spren when he did that. It was only by repenting and saying the words that he was able to regain his honor. 
 

Adolin has never done anything similar. I’m not saying that I believe he’s going to be the champion. I don’t or at least I believe we still have a long way to go before we have any proof of that. I am saying that to call him “ most honorable character” is completely false statement 

Kaladin did the opposite in similar circumstances. At one point he was tempted to fly and kill Amaram in the middle of the night. He decided against it. So I think the text of the book frames what Adolin did as dishonorable. I just personally disagree.
Also, I think he did repent, after he told Dalinar the truth and took the responsibility for the action. For him to say that he regrets killing him would be disingenuous.

[bmcclure7]

44 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Kaladin did the opposite in similar circumstances. At one point he was tempted to fly and kill Amaram in the middle of the night. He decided against it. So I think the text of the book frames what Adolin did as dishonorable. I just personally disagree.
Also, I think he did repent, after he told Dalinar the truth and took the responsibility for the action. For him to say that he regrets killing him would be disingenuous.

I’m confused didn’t he sepacifically say that he doesn’t regret it and that it was the right decision to make that by definition is not repentance

[slavagh he/him]

19 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I’m confused didn’t he sepacifically say that he doesn’t regret it and that it was the right decision to make that by definition is not repentance

He regretted the way of killing not the killing itself. That is part of the reason he refused the crown. That was my read. 
What was Dalinar's repentance for destroying Rathalas? He took the responsibility for his actions.

[Erklitt]

After reading the new chapters week after week, I have now listened to the audiobook version of all we have so far in one go. And during the last chapter 'Passionspren' I had this discussion in the back of my mind.

Let me state one thing clearly: I don't go for any of those theories of doom, at least not in a way that they remain true in the end, no matter what might happen in between. Every single Brandon Sanderson book I've read has left me satisfied with the ending, even if, at the ending of a book that wasn't the end of the series, not everything had been solved yet. But there always was at least a partial victory, and a feeling that things had turned out right.

So I don't believe for a second that by the end of WaT, Dalinar will be a Fused or will have killed Adolin or vice versa. Other fantasy authors might do something like that, but Brandon wont. 

Yet I don't deny that the chapter title 'Passionspren' smells strongly of foreshadowing. 

The possible conclusion I came up with has already been stated in this thread:

On 9/24/2024 at 12:11 AM, slavagh said:

He is a far better choice for Dalinar's champion.

 

Maybe Adolin will have nothing to do with the champion battle. According to the amazon blurb, he'll spend his time in Azimir. But if he does become involved, I am certain he will be on Dalinar's side. His character arc will not lead him to fight against Dalinar, but rather to a reconciliation with his father. Honestly, I think that is what most fans yearn for, and what we will be given. Because most of us very much like both of them. And so that needs to be part of a 'good ending'. So far, Brandon has always delivered.

Anything else would be wrong for Maya.
Anything else would be wrong for Shallan, who for the first time experiences something like a more or less 'happy family'. 
Anything else would be SO VERY WRONG for Dalinar and Adolin.

In short: If - for some as yet unthinkable reason - Adolin becomes Dalinar's champion, I think it will all work together: 

• his passion against Odium's passion
• his unique bond to Maya
• his understanding of Shallan as someone who has been deeply hurt by Odium's machinations
• his condemning his father somehow turning to understanding

TLDR: Either Adolin will have nothing to do with the contest of champions, or he will be Dalinar's champion.

 

Edited September 27, 2024 by Erklitt

[slavagh he/him]

15 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Maybe Adolin will have nothing to do with the champion battle. According to the amazon blurb, he'll spend his time in Azimir. But if he does become involved, I am certain he will be on Dalinar's side. His character arc will not lead him to fight against Dalinar, but rather to a reconciliation with his father. Honestly, I think that is what most fans yearn for, and what we will be given. Because most of us very much like both of them. And so that needs to be part of a 'good ending'. So far, Brandon has always delivered.

Anything else would be wrong for Maya.
Anything else would be wrong for Shallan, who for the first time experiences something like a more or less 'happy family'. 
Anything else would be SO VERY WRONG for Dalinar and Adolin.

I agree with everything. The book doesn't need to sacrifice so many character arks to have a surprise Odium's champion. 
I prefer a 'good ending' for all major characters. But I am afraid it is impossible for a book with such high stakes.

[Erklitt]

 

8 minutes ago, slavagh said:

But I am afraid it is impossible for a book with such high stakes.

Honestly: why?

i don't remember the exact WoB, but I do remember him saying that readers would get 'some level of closure' after the first 'half arc'.

He's always delivered before. Why should it be impossible this time?  I trust he will be very well able to do it again.

[slavagh he/him]

16 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Honestly: why?

i don't remember the exact WoB, but I do remember him saying that readers would get 'some level of closure' after the first 'half arc'.

He's always delivered before. Why should it be impossible this time?  I trust he will be very well able to do it again.

'Good ending' for me is satisfying character ark and survival. I am confident in good character arks, but with high stakes, some characters are at risk of dying.

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

Yet I don't deny that the chapter title 'Passionspren' smells strongly of foreshadowing. 

I honestly think the foreshadowing is for something much further down the road when it comes to the Archive story.

Taking this into account and the promise Shallan forced Kaladin to make, I believe Adolin will ascend to Odium at the end of Archive.

Curious note: This is the third time that Adolin has been associated with the Pasionspren's.

[Sedside she/her]

6 hours ago, slavagh said:

Also, I think he did repent, after he told Dalinar the truth and took the responsibility for the action.

Yes, he did it after Dalinar insisted Adolin should take Elhokar's place and become a king. Adolin told Dalinar about Sadeas just as another reason why he can't be a king. So in fact it was not him taking responsibility for the action, it was him refusing the responsibility of being a king.

5 hours ago, slavagh said:

He regretted the way of killing not the killing itself.

But it's clearly stated the opposite in the book. OB Ch. 83:

Spoiler

It had felt so satisfying to shove it through Sadeas’s eye. He still didn’t know whether to feel ashamed or proud.

[Rorzikel]

7 hours ago, Erklitt said:

 

Honestly: why?

i don't remember the exact WoB, but I do remember him saying that readers would get 'some level of closure' after the first 'half arc'.

He's always delivered before. Why should it be impossible this time?  I trust he will be very well able to do it again.

There can’t be no losses, not after Brandon just killed off the previous vessel and replaced him because Brandon felt that Rayse had been narratively beaten too many times. And not after the setup of there being a loophole in the contract.

If Brandon did go with an easy win, then what would even be the point of the swap? It’d just be tension created only to be invalidated one book later. Risk and threat that never strikes is neither risky nor threatening.

[slavagh he/him]

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yes, he did it after Dalinar insisted Adolin should take Elhokar's place and become a king. Adolin told Dalinar about Sadeas just as another reason why he can't be a king. So in fact it was not him taking responsibility for the action, it was him refusing the responsibility of being a king.

To give up power if you feel you are not fit for it is the responsible thing to do. He still gives his all attention to combat Odium and help the coalition. How is he avoiding responsibility?

6 hours ago, Sedside said:

But it's clearly stated the opposite in the book. OB Ch. 83:

  Hide contents

It had felt so satisfying to shove it through Sadeas’s eye. He still didn’t know whether to feel ashamed or proud.

Why does Adolin think he is worse of a man than his father thinks he is? He is ashamed of what he did.

I always read it as satisfaction from the vengeance and shame from the way of doing so. It is a complex feeling, vague enough that a more sinister interpretation may be more valid. I just can't justify the sinister interpretation of the character, because I can't back it up with other instances.

[Sedside she/her]

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

To give up power if you feel you are not fit for it is the responsible thing to do. He still gives his all attention to combat Odium and help the coalition. How is he avoiding responsibility?

Well, my initial point was that Adolin only confessed to Dalinar because he needed the reason to convince him he can't be a king. We don't know if he would do that if Elhokar survived, I believe there is no evidence in text for that. We also know that he took some efforts to hide the truth from everyone. My statement about Adolin's avoidance of responsibility is just my opinion about this character based on how I read him, if you disagree with this it's fine, I'm not going to argue.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

Why does Adolin think he is worse of a man than his father thinks he is? He is ashamed of what he did.

He thinks he is a worse man than his father before he did it. He says it to Sadeas while murdering him. It's not like he was fine, but then he murdered Sadeas, and now he is a worse man than his father. It's the opposite - he is a worse man than his father, and that's why he murdered Sadeas instead of letting him go.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

I always read it as satisfaction from the vengeance and shame from the way of doing so.

In the quote I gave it is written directly that shoving a knife through Sadeas's eye felt satisfying. Not taking vengeance, not getting rid of the enemy, not securing his family, or Alethkar, or Roshar or whatever. If this quote isn't enough, there's another one, OB Ch. 93:

Spoiler

Adolin thought once again of the jolt he'd felt when ramming his dagger through Sadeas's eye and into his brain. Satisfation and shame.

Both lines stress the sensation of ramming a knife. He does feel shame, yes, but he feels satisfaction at the same time, so we can't say that he only feels shame about the way he did it. And I personally read this shame differently, in my opininon he is ashamed because of the satisfaction he felt, but this is another thing that is very subjective, so I don't insist on this interpretation. Regarding his feelings about the vengeance itself we know that he doesn't regret it and feels pretty confident about it. It's not like he thinks about it a great deal, it's like "I did the right thing, that's it, case closed".

Edited September 28, 2024 by Sedside
typo

[bmcclure7]

14 hours ago, Erklitt said:

After reading the new chapters week after week, I have now listened to the audiobook version of all we have so far in one go. And during the last chapter 'Passionspren' I had this discussion in the back of my mind.

Let me state one thing clearly: I don't go for any of those theories of doom, at least not in a way that they remain true in the end, no matter what might happen in between. Every single Brandon Sanderson book I've read has left me satisfied with the ending, even if, at the ending of a book that wasn't the end of the series, not everything had been solved yet. But there always was at least a partial victory, and a feeling that things had turned out right.

So I don't believe for a second that by the end of WaT, Dalinar will be a Fused or will have killed Adolin or vice versa. Other fantasy authors might do something like that, but Brandon wont. 

Yet I don't deny that the chapter title 'Passionspren' smells strongly of foreshadowing. 

The possible conclusion I came up with has already been stated in this thread:

 

Maybe Adolin will have nothing to do with the champion battle. According to the amazon blurb, he'll spend his time in Azimir. But if he does become involved, I am certain he will be on Dalinar's side. His character arc will not lead him to fight against Dalinar, but rather to a reconciliation with his father. Honestly, I think that is what most fans yearn for, and what we will be given. Because most of us very much like both of them. And so that needs to be part of a 'good ending'. So far, Brandon has always delivered.

Anything else would be wrong for Maya.
Anything else would be wrong for Shallan, who for the first time experiences something like a more or less 'happy family'. 
Anything else would be SO VERY WRONG for Dalinar and Adolin.

In short: If - for some as yet unthinkable reason - Adolin becomes Dalinar's champion, I think it will all work together: 

• his passion against Odium's passion
• his unique bond to Maya
• his understanding of Shallan as someone who has been deeply hurt by Odium's machinations
• his condemning his father somehow turning to understanding

TLDR: Either Adolin will have nothing to do with the contest of champions, or he will be Dalinar's champion.

 

The name could imply other things. There are also other options than him being involved in the in the conquest of champions. It’s possible.” passion Spren “ could foreshadow something completely different. 
For example, Adolin could bond with a void spren. Or he could possibly even join odium side as some sort of mole. 
 

That said I do agree the store can’t be completely bleak, it will have a satisfying ending, but one way or another Dalinar will not win the conquest of champions I suspect there will be something like the ending of The well of Ascension. Will come up with a win, but also a big loss or some big mistake probably related to the conquest of champions. 
 

I’m a little confused when was shallan ever harmed by odium? 

[Erklitt]

 

6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I’m a little confused when was shallan ever harmed by odium? 

Sorry, I realize now putting it like that must be confusing.

I wrote 'Odium's machinations'.  What I meant was that the whole Roshar debacle of repeating desolations with all the side effects exists only because of Odium, and before the current desolation started, Shallan was one of few contemporary humans who even as a child was already in the thick of it and suffered from it. Skybreakers, one or more unmade, possibly a herald, and who knows what else influenced her life, traumatizing her, while most people still thought Aharietiam had been the final victory.

So in a way, Odium is indirectly responsible for her mental problems, and Adolin will realize this, making his beef with Odium even more personal. That's what I meant and expressed rather poorly. 

Edited September 28, 2024 by Erklitt

[Diomedes]

I think we can all agree Adolin is somebody who cares deeply about his friends, his familiy and all those he considers to be under his protection. At the same time he is capable of ruthless violence against his enemies, be it Sadeas, the Singers in WoK and WoR, or those bandits in RoW.

Therefore, he is a hardcore in-group, out-group kind of guy. You are in his team and he will give his life for you, he considers you as his enemy and he will slice you up in a split second, without pity or mercy. 

The way I see Adolin becoming Odium`s champion is, that for some reason he thinks he can only protect those he loves by going against Dalinar. But I don`t see that honestly. 

What I do see happening is Adolin disagreeing with Dalinar in the way he is going to protect his family and country. Him choosing neither Dalinar or Taravangian, but his own kind of wrong, as he said in RoW, "choosing freedom" to put it in terms of the Oathgate spren. And yes this was part of a theory of mine.

 

[Ailvara]

Between all the arguments about how Adolin won't possibly agree to be the OC and fight his father, there's one detail missing: this will not be the question.

Remember how Odium nearly turned Dalinar to be his OC. That whole battle of minds wasn't about whether Dalinar would agree to fight for Odium. He never would. But it was about whether Dalinar would admit that Odium was the one responsible for his crimes. This was a so much harder question and not an obvious one at all. It was so easy to rationalise it; he was, after all, directly targeted and under the influence of an Unmade. Many good people in his situation would agree that they were not fully accountable.

But if he did, we know it would somehow make him Odium's puppet. And then, as a consequence of that, he'd virtually no longer have a choice but to fight for him. Odium doesn't ask: "will you be my Champion". He asks: "do you accept me as someone who directs your decisions". And he does it in the most sneaky and tempting way, specially crafted for the individual he targets.

Adolin chooses anger. He doesn't want reconciliation, he lets his rage fester. In that he allows something of Odium control him. And that is a dangerous path to follow.