SA5 Chapters 7 8 9

[The Stick]

Do we have knowledge on what type of fused El is? I think it is possible that the changes in Fused behavior could be sources from him if he is some sort of general of military leader. Really, the attack stinks of Lezian's style, but he is dead. As to how they got attacked, I think the ghostbloods are the most likely option. However, Ishar's men probably know about the expedition. I think it could be possible Ishar sold them down the river. He is certainly crazy enough.

 

I feel like Shallan's new ability with Radiant is a similar end to what Ishar was trying to do with his experiments, but clearly Shallan's method works to some extent. She turned Investiture into mass, which is what Ishar did. I think the realm transitions what messes things up. I guess the big question is whether or not whatever method Ishar used to turn spren physical would still kill them if they only turned physical in CR and not PR.

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, Mack said:

 

I've been thinking about this a lot. The way I see it T/Odium is either 

1. About to go on the mad dash conquer spree/weaken the Radiants as much as possible in the final 10 days. I find this one the least likely. 
2. As of now Shallan's plot is barreling towards Ba-Ado-Mishram. Could be T/Odium is racing to free her first, or he wants Mishram to stay imprisoned. 
3. Cleaning house so to speak. Anyone related to Sja-Anat, even though she helped Taravangian ascend. Shallan has less of a relation to her than Renarin and Rlain now. But still feels like there is more to that plot thread. Plus Renarin and Rlain have the ability to cloud the future sight. 

I actually see #1 as likely.  Killing Adolin and Shallan would be devastating to Dalinar.  Do whatever you can to mess with Dalinar psychologically in the days before the contest of champions.

[Smye]

16 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I guess the big question is whether or not whatever method Ishar used to turn spren physical would still kill them if they only turned physical in CR and not PR.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at... they already are "physical" in the CR.

[Kesamijr]

My thoughts post these chapters:

1) this chapter probably put Nohadon top of my author’s list? Rosharan native, non-Herald, non-edgedancer, remembers a time (presumably pre-Recreance) when common people (read functioning Urithiru-residents) were closer to more spren and understood them more deeply, not Kaladin. Still also like Veristitalians, Lirin/Hesins, Jasnah, Shallan, but No’s prolly top of my list rn. Also feels like it could be like Kelek/Ishar if one of our MCs take their roles as a Herald. Or I guess presumably Ash cuz she’s the only Rosharan native?

 

2) Shallan here reminds me of Painter. Extremely Connected to a VERY Invested entity and uses that Connection to create physicality for another being. Radiant looks much more Chana-like to my eye than anywhere else in the books. Hell with the shardblade, tbh it could even be Chana. Because how was a shardblade manifested in Shadesmar if it isn’t an honorblade. Either way Shallan reminds me of Yumi and Painter here in that she’s clearly a highly Invested being warping reality around her. As other people mentioned Vasher does similar things (which we see Shallan do in TGWLU too), but what’s confusing me is the blood. Shard blades don’t make people bleed, but potentially honor blades do? I have to reread the first prologue, but that makes me think it’s an honorblade?

Or Shallan just created a new type of shardblade, pure investiture made sword through Honor/Cultivation’s power, technically a shardblade. And conceivable for the child of an Avatar of Honor. (And/or I guess an Avatar of Honor as well? Is that how heralds pro-create? Shallan definitely feels like some kind of pseudo-returned cognitive child but I just don’t know how it works)

 

3) Dabbid was one of my favorite parts of the last book, glad to see him getting a bond.

 

4) everyone’s mentioning the possibilities of light weaving and I agree, but I do think some of this stuff, or the power levels of it, is Shallan exclusive, I think we see with Design the type of thing most Lightweavers can do. Again it’s Design vs. Yumi rust for me. 
 

Great chapters I’m so hyped for December.

[The Stick]

22 minutes ago, Smye said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at... they already are "physical" in the CR.

My point for this is irrelevant on if the spren are physical or not in CR. I phrased it kind of poorly, but we know that Shallan made investiture physical in CR using the Radiant physical form. Ishar is also trying to make investiture physical, but he is trying to do it in PR. I am saying that if they are both trying to do this, then the difference in realms might make a difference. We know spren do fine physically in CR, but die in PR. Whereas, Shallan made unconscious investiture solid in CR briefly. I think that however she did that may help Ishar bridge the realms to make the investiture of the spren form PR bodies.

[Smye]

14 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

this chapter probably put Nohadon top of my author’s list?

I'm super curious to hear how you'd square Nohadon as the author with the namedrop of Kaladin Stormblessed in WaT (in-world).

1 minute ago, The Stick said:

My point for this is irrelevant on if the spren are physical or not in CR. I phrased it kind of poorly, but we know that Shallan made investiture physical in CR using the Radiant physical form. Ishar is also trying to make investiture physical, but he is trying to do it in PR. I am saying that if they are both trying to do this, then the difference in realms might make a difference. We know spren do fine physically in CR, but die in PR. Whereas, Shallan made unconscious investiture solid in CR briefly. I think that however she did that may help Ishar bridge the realms to make the investiture of the spren form PR bodies.

Thanks for clarifying, excellent food for thought.

I'm thinking more and more about Shallan's Oaths and all of the weirdness with them. BS has mentioned this peculiarity a few times and referenced an in-house guide at Dragonsteel to keep track. Perhaps this was an instance of same Oath, different Spren. Could be that this one was re-sworn to Testament. I've wondered for some time if she has to swear a given oath (not necessarily the same words, but the same 'number') to both Spren to be of a particular 'Oath-level." BS is all about the limitations of magic being where the really interesting bits take place... perhaps with Shallan she gets the power-up of Double-Spren (One-and-a-Half-Spren?) and the wonkiness that comes with it but the limitation/drawback of having to have sworn to both Spren separately to achieve each level. I'm hoping hoping hoping it's all part of healing Testament. I believe there was a WoB way back when (found it) about re-swearing oaths being a possibility IFF the original Radiant were to re-swear them... and here we are.

[Kesamijr]

1 hour ago, Smye said:

I'm super curious to hear how you'd square Nohadon as the author with the namedrop of Kaladin Stormblessed in WaT (in-world).

I’ve always felt he was still floating around somewhere, never seen the body and all that. 

I also feel there’s a nice symmetry (fitting for Stormlight) to have him write the first and last in world book. First and last are him, 2nd and 4th professionals, 3rd Dalinar. 
 

But the biggest thing for me is, of my list of potential authors, he’s starting to fit the best.
 

Things we now about the author:

Self-Described Historian and philosopher

Not alive in “ancient days” when Singers and Human coexist

Seem to have been around pre-Recreance with a more functional Urithiru and Spren around.

Probably not an Edgedancer or Kaladin do to the third person natures there?

Probably Connected to Honor/Roshar due to being watched by the wind?

 

Tbf, if the book is the first from the future in world, and there’s some kind of cataclysm that make spren sparse again, it could be functionally anyone and Szeth, Jasnah, Shallan et. al could still be up there on the list, but if the book is present day I think Nohadon fits those categories best? Him or I guess Melishi, who has been getting more airtime than him recently, that’s a shout I didn’t think of till now. 
 

But no hard proof just my guesses and rust!

[dvoraen]

So about Shallan's cute Identity trick, I just have one question for everyone:

Why can't it simply be a product of Spiritual Transformation? Using Investiture to change her Identity for a brief moment? It's very likely she's Connected to Drehy from association over time, so it's not a stretch to say she could potentially access that attribute on account of having that Connection to him.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I did have a thought, invoked in part by this. Spren are supposed to be rarer in Shinovar. So perhaps this book is written by Szeth, and instead of documenting some cataclysm, it's a document of their journey.

But that would depend on Szeth becoming aware of Taravangian's Ascension, which would be... an interesting reaction.

 

10 hours ago, The Stick said:

Finally, who the storms is Abidi the Monarch? At first I thought that it could be El until the name-drop. Who on Roshar is this Fused and why have we not seen him before? I think that if he makes the Heavenly Ones more ruthless, then they might start slaughtering citizens to make Dalinar submit to stop the bloodshed. I also really wonder why this guy hates Lightweavers so much.

I'm pretty sure this is just one of the Heavenly Ones who's been revived one, two, twelve too many times. Nearly all the Fused have titles, I don't think him having a royal one makes too much of a difference. (I think we'll know El when we see him. And Dalinar's used to war, I don't think Taravangian can kill his way out of this so easily.)

Also I think if Abidi was a Monarch, he might have to Abidi-cate, because Radiant just killed him again.

[Mack]

6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I actually see #1 as likely.  Killing Adolin and Shallan would be devastating to Dalinar.  Do whatever you can to mess with Dalinar psychologically in the days before the contest of champions.

Fair point. I guess I just expect more from T/Odium at this point in the story. Something more subtle. Most of that thought for me stems from the last conversation Dalinar and Taravangian had in Rhythm of War. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I actually see #1 as likely.  Killing Adolin and Shallan would be devastating to Dalinar.  Do whatever you can to mess with Dalinar psychologically in the days before the contest of champions.

Then why doesn't he do it? Why send only eight Fused? Why not, say, thirty? The point is that he does not do whatever he can. The numbers are too small and they are not acting like the would if they had been told to kill the passengers specifically at all cost..

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think there's also a distinct possibility this isn't Odium's play. Taravangian's trying to be subtle, and him brute force murdering Shallan or Adolin is... kind of the opposite of that.

A few possibilities: one, this is Taravangian making a play to hurt Dalinar by killing his son. Two, these Fused are actually sent by Mraize to go kill Shallan, just to send a message. Three, these Fused are actually doing something unrelated - there was still the mention of Shallan being sucked down into the spheres, which seems to be... strange, and maybe Unmade related.

[BinarySecond]

13 hours ago, listerfeend said:

I'm pretty well convinced that Shallan's identities are more than just identities, and are actually capital I Identities, and she is Connected to various versions of herself that could have been. Radiant is the Shallan that would have grown up with her Herald mother teaching her how to be a Knight. Veil is the Shallan that grew up working for the Ghostbloods, learning spy craft and the like. Formless is the Shallan that would have succumbed to the depression and misery of growing up in the Davar household with that Unmade lurking about, and the abusive father...

I think she's already doing things along the same lines as Forgery, but instead of re-writing her Connections and Identity to make it so that she was born somewhere else, to different parents, in different situations, she is instead drawing upon the Connections to what could have been had things gone differently. Much like she's able to draw versions of people that could have been. She's just actually able to incorporate those people into herself. 

It seems a bit like Gold and Malatium - Which appears to have some connection to Fortune considering what Kalak says about her drawings. She's drawing, essential, Malatium Shadows of people.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, The Stick said:

Do we have knowledge on what type of fused El is?

We don't. I suspect he's the same type as Raboniel, with access to Transformation because every Return he replaces parts of his body with metal.

 

12 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

2) Shallan here reminds me of Painter. Extremely Connected to a VERY Invested entity and uses that Connection to create physicality for another being. Radiant looks much more Chana-like to my eye than anywhere else in the books. Hell with the shardblade, tbh it could even be Chana. Because how was a shardblade manifested in Shadesmar if it isn’t an honorblade. Either way Shallan reminds me of Yumi and Painter here in that she’s clearly a highly Invested being warping reality around her. As other people mentioned Vasher does similar things (which we see Shallan do in TGWLU too), but what’s confusing me is the blood. Shard blades don’t make people bleed, but potentially honor blades do? I have to reread the first prologue, but that makes me think it’s an honorblade?

Or Shallan just created a new type of shardblade, pure investiture made sword through Honor/Cultivation’s power, technically a shardblade. And conceivable for the child of an Avatar of Honor. (And/or I guess an Avatar of Honor as well? Is that how heralds pro-create? Shallan definitely feels like some kind of pseudo-returned cognitive child but I just don’t know how it works)

That wasn't a Shardblade nor a Honorblade because of the blood. Shardblades cut spiritually first, not physically - there would be no blood. Not to mention that the creation of Shardblade out of raw investiture would require a huge amount of investiture - so large that it's impossible for Shallan to make one. It would be like trying to Soulcast a god metal and not even Dalinar's perpendicularity can provide enough investiture for this. It was just a normal blade looking like a Shardblade.

Spoiler

Haylo_Alex

You've said before that Soulcasting can't create atium or lerasium which makes sense since they're made of Investiture from other Shards. But could a Soulcaster, perhaps in the proximity of Dalinar's perpendicularity, provide enough Stormlight to Soulcast something into Honor's Godmetal (tanavastium)? What about Cultivation's metal, or an alloy of both, like Shardblade metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So, creating a God Metal is not something that's done easily in the Cosmere. HOWEVER, it is possible. You'd need a ton of Investiture, and being near Dalinar's perpendicularity is unlikely to be enough. I'd say Soulcasting, or something akin to it, has the means to do this if it could obtain the proper power charge.

Footnote: The questioner is mentioning this WoB.
General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 4, 2020)

 

Spoiler

rani

Any kind of Investiture to make a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not any but there are multiple methods.  Some work better than others.

rani

Can you Forge a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

To Forge a Shardblade, meaning make a regular sword through Forgery into a Shardblade, would require so much Investiture it’s like asking if we can make lead into gold using a particle accelerator.  Yes but it's horribly, horribly, horribly inefficient.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

[Master Silver]

20 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

So, do we think Ryshadium will fly in the future? Seemend ... like a fairly deadpan hint. 

There is a poem I love reading to my kids. It is called The Fly Away Horse. Maybe a Ryshadium can bond a Sky Eel and sprout wings. If humans can attract spren, Ryshadium ought to be able to too.

[+robardin he/him]

14 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

There is a poem I love reading to my kids. It is called The Fly Away Horse. Maybe a Ryshadium can bond a Sky Eel and sprout wings. If humans can attract spren, Ryshadium ought to be able to too.

Ryshadium already have a spren bond, it's what makes them larger and smarter and magic vs. ordinary horses. Like Chasmfiends.

[Master Silver]

36 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ryshadium already have a spren bond, it's what makes them larger and smarter and magic vs. ordinary horses. Like Chasmfiends.

Radiants can have two spren. Maybe Ryshadium can become radiant-ish, but for horses. 

[+robardin he/him]

26 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Radiants can have two spren. Maybe Ryshadium can become radiant-ish, but for horses. 

It's supposed to be difficult and rare to happen, and Kalak even says such an "imbrication" of the Nahel bond used to be prohibited (I guess that means either Honor or Ishar would have prevented or severed it?).

Similar to reviving a deadeye spren without the original bonded Radiant involved, it's "never happened" and "the circumstances would be pretty rare/unique" - just because two of our main character heroes in SA have done both of these things doesn't change that, it's more that "the story is about them BECAUSE they have an exceptional/unique situations about them", that's the nature of storytelling.

The two of them meeting up and marrying each other, well, I guess that's author's prerogative

[BinarySecond]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

Radiants can have two spren. Maybe Ryshadium can become radiant-ish, but for horses. 

But it isn't rare for an animal to have several bonds.

Greatshells bond many Mandras to sustain their sizes. 

[+robardin he/him]

3 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

But it isn't rare for an animal to have several bonds.

Greatshells bond many Mandras to sustain their sizes. 

Fair, but that's multiple bonds to the same kind of spren - more akin to having living Shardplate built from multiple platespren, I would say, than forming multiple Nahel bonds, or gemheart bonds for a listener.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

But it isn't rare for an animal to have several bonds.

Greatshells bond many Mandras to sustain their sizes. 

I'm not sure it's confirmed. The bonded spren is located in the gemheart of a greatshell, just like with Singers and their spren. Those flying around a greatshell often disappear - they don't seem to be bonded with it, rather attracted to it. 

[+robardin he/him]

19 hours ago, Smye said:

This was a storming delight! Thank you for that.

It would be pretty funny to imagine Kelsier's face/reaction after having two back to back taunt-o-grams from Roshar relayed to him from Mraize, first from Hoid threatening to "go back over there and slap him around again", and second from Taravangian who he'd dismissed gloating about Guess Who's A Shard Now And Has Plans For You!

[Wadders]

The reference to things being less common by the books author. Could that just be referring to bonds and that because of the conflict ending due to the contest of champions not as many spren are interested in forming a bond? In that case the spren forming bonds are just the ones who want to explore the physical realm rather than feeling a need to help defend roshar.

[Kardenal_13 he/him]

21 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

As other people mentioned Vasher does similar things (which we see Shallan do in TGWLU too), but what’s confusing me is the blood. Shard blades don’t make people bleed, but potentially honor blades do? I have to reread the first prologue, but that makes me think it’s an honorblade?

I just wanted to add a comment to this without going into the whole Identity debate.

I saw this as a combination of two things:

- Unless I BADLY misread the chapter the battle takes place in Shadesmar and IIRC Dead Shardblades can't manifest in Shadesmar, the spren just scream. I can't remember anyone summoning a Living Shardblade in Shadesmar but I haven't read the series in a while so that could be wrong (am currently in Oathbringer part 2).

- Shallan is making a copy of Radiant with a Blade that looks like a Shardblade, but she can't actually make a Shardblade so she copies the effect of a real sword. I also don't remember if Radiant's previous manifestation durning the Battle of Thaylen Field managed to Shardblade kill or just regular kill.

- I tried to find if Honorblades could be brought into Shadesmar but I couldn't find anything with a quick coppermind search, so the "Maybe that is Chanarach's Honorblade" could be true but I don't have any evidence for that.

 

Tl/dr: I think Radiant didn't have a real shardblade because they were in Shadesmar, Shallan can't create one there because they don't work there, so she mimicked the effect of a normal sword.

[+robardin he/him]

23 minutes ago, Matt Snow said:

Shallan is making a copy of Radiant with a Blade that looks like a Shardblade, but she can't actually make a Shardblade so she copies the effect of a real sword.

That's how I read it.

Honorblades have the same effect as any other Shardblade in the PR, cutting through non-living materal like clothing and then passing through living flesh that go gray/dead (and in a fatal hit the eyes burn out and all that).

We saw that many times with Szeth and Moash/Vyre wielding Jezrien's Blade - in particular, when Adolin sees Szeth "sever" Kaladin's arm in the warcamp palance hallway before they fell through the hole cut out in the wall, making it extra suspicious when Kaladin later appears with his arm fully functional but his sleeve neatly cut off where he remembered seeing the Blade pass through.

"Normal" spren-made-solid Shardblades can't form in Shadesmar, but Honorblades probably could be physically brought there and used as normal, since the humans and Fused in Shadesmar are physically there.

I also don't quite get why people still promote Shallan = Chanarach theories. Brandon has confirmed multiple times, going back many years, that Shallan Davar is indeed the full and natural child of Lin Davar and his wife, and the sister of her three brothers.

That kind of rules out her being a Herald of the Almighty who lived from the time of Dawnsingers and the arrival of humans to Roshar.

Quote

Questioner

Is Shallan's mother, the one that she kills, is that her birth mother?

Brandon Sanderson

It is.  Good question. Good question.  You had a theory there that I may have just killed.

Questioner

That's okay!

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Is Shallan's father her actual father?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah! People asked if her mother were her mother. No one's asked yet if her father were her father... Yes, it was her father. Yes, I will give you that, yes. Her mother and father as presented in the stories were actually her mother and father.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Of course, that does still leave open the possibility that Shallan's MOTHER was Chanarach, ... but "Shallan remembers she's Chana!" was NOT what was going on there in Ch 9.

Edited August 27, 2024 by robardin