Wind and Truth: Chapters 5 and 6

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Oh boy. 

 

Lots of things. 

 

First off, those epigraphs. Wow. 

 

Regardless, the events surrounding the cleansing of Shinovar are of specific relevance, and I am doing my best to record what I can discover of the Wind’s own words regarding them. Though, now that the Wind and Heralds have vanished, I have only two sources who can speak of these events.

 

Excuse me where are the heralds and wind? That seems huge. 

 

Kaladin as king of Urithiru - I actually really like this possibility. I think this would be a good place for him. However, since it was suggested so early it basically cant happen. This felt like more evidence that Kaladin will ascend to Honor. 

 

Other thoughts?

[Erklitt]

6 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

However, since it was suggested so early it basically cant happen.

There's at least one death rattle that sounds like it might happen: 

Quote

He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear! 

We've just been reminded that tower and crown are Dalinar's symbols. And becoming king of Urithiru would also mean becoming a man of war again, picking up the spear that he'd put down earlier. (Though more in a behavioral sense, since the Sylspear is always available.)

Also, the wording 'He must pick it up...' would fit Kaladin's current unwillingness.

 

7 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Excuse me where are the heralds and wind? That seems huge. 

At least that seems to put to rest the theory that the oathpact will be renewed in it's old form but with new members. I was especially horrified by the theory Kaladin might join that.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

9 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

We've just been reminded that tower and crown are Dalinar's symbols. And becoming king of Urithiru would also mean becoming a man of war again, picking up the spear that he'd put down earlier. (Though more in a behavioral sense, since the Sylspear is always available.)

Also, the wording 'He must pick it up...' would fit Kaladin's current unwillingness.

That death rattle seems to indicate to me that he needs to pick up Honor. Currently that is the fallen title. 

 

Though if Dalinar loses the contest, King of Urithiru would certainly also be a fallen title. 

 

Seems it could go either way (or both). 

[coolsnow7]

Well, we definitely know who’s picking up 

Quote

the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!

Just kidding - in actuality this has the signs of a classic Brandon fakeout. But in either case, this is both foreshadowing and straight up telegraphing (given the deathrattle) that Dalinar won’t survive.

[alder24]

The Wind and Heralds disappeared? It sounds like Oathpact will be remade but I don't trust this at all. But why would the Wind disappear with Heralds?

The moment Dalinar started to think about the Kholin glyph:

Quote

Wearing a Kholin blue uniform with his glyphs on the back: the tower and the crown.

I started to think about this death rattle, which I long suspected talks about Kaladin taking up the crown of Urithiru:

Quote

He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!

And to my excitement we got this later:

Quote

“My sons,” Dalinar said softly, “have both refused to be named as my heirs to any throne I might claim.”

I think that death rattle definitely talks about this and Kaladin's Stormblessed glyph will be stylized as the tower with the spear in the middle and the crown above. 

 

Syl breathing and then mentioning Ishar's experiments look like suspicious hints. I don't like where it goes. I was expecting a longer interaction between Kaladin and Szeth, some planning or something, but what we got was too short. But there is a whole book ahead of us, I just want to read about those two together so badly  

 

And Shallan has some weird creationspren around her that change shapes, when they shouldn't be able to do that in CR. Her Platespren I presume. But are they of Pattern or Testament? Radiant had a Shardplate during the battle of Thaylen Field in OB - it seems very likely that Shallan reached the 4th Ideal with Testament. Now that she's started to repair her bond, those platespren might have returned to her. Or "I killed my spren" counts as Pattern's 4th Ideal. 

Edited August 19, 2024 by alder24

[The Stick]

I think that a potential reason for the disappearance of the Wind and Heralds could be Ishar figuring out how to kill and absorb them. If Kaladin is unable to heal Ishar, which seems likely from what Hoid said, I think Ishar could carry out his whole dream of becoming Adonalsium by eating up all the Old Magic Adonalsium fragments. I also think that this bodes really, really badly for the Stormfather, because he should be able to witness the cleansing of Shinovar through the storm, but that means either he is a witness, or probably dead.

The death rattle and inheritance make Navani seem to have a bleak future. She is first in line, so she has to either die or surrender the title. I don't think she will die, because she has not had enough time in a Bondsmith arc.

[agrabes]

58 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

There's at least one death rattle that sounds like it might happen: 

We've just been reminded that tower and crown are Dalinar's symbols. And becoming king of Urithiru would also mean becoming a man of war again, picking up the spear that he'd put down earlier. (Though more in a behavioral sense, since the Sylspear is always available.)

Also, the wording 'He must pick it up...' would fit Kaladin's current unwillingness.

 

At least that seems to put to rest the theory that the oathpact will be renewed in it's old form but with new members. I was especially horrified by the theory Kaladin might join that.

Good call back to this death rattle.  I think if we look bigger picture, this might be setting up things for SA6-10.  It would make a lot of sense for Kaladin to essentially fill something like the Dalinar role in the back 5 of SA.  This arc (WaT) is about him gaining the right mindset to become a high level leader.  He's naturally good as a squad leader type, but when he was leading all the Windrunners it was just too much for him - he couldn't pull back and look at the big picture.  Every loss crushed him.  Chapter 6 was about Dalinar planting the seed that Kaladin is capable of being a leader like this and that he needs to forget his prejudices and take up the mantle.

I'm not saying he couldn't take up the Honor shard but I don't really want that to happen.  I feel like there is a lot of character growth left for Kaladin that can't happen if he becomes a Shard.  I'd like to see him learn to become part of a family, to lead people and make hard choices, to learn to love himself and someone else.  There has been a lot of foreshadowing (mostly in comments from Syl) that Kaladin needs to learn these things.  I could see SA6-10 including a bit of sideplot where Kaladin gets to be happy and grow, since I expect he won't be a major character in those books.  This is more my hope than a prediction though haha.

In other thoughts about this chapter - I also liked how we got to see Szeth from an outside perspective.  When we see him from inside his head, he seems mostly ok even if he's dealing with a lot of stuff.  And our main POV characters tend to not interact with him much or even think about him - rightfully so since to them he is still mostly just the Assassin in White.  So seeing Kaladin observe him as basically a dangerous crazy person is fun.  And I think it sets up a fun storyline of the two of them getting to know each other, since the last time they spent any significant time interacting with each other it was a duel to the death.  We also get to see more of what Szeth is really like, from the outside.

[Little_Dagger she/her]

56 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Good call back to this death rattle.  I think if we look bigger picture, this might be setting up things for SA6-10.  It would make a lot of sense for Kaladin to essentially fill something like the Dalinar role in the back 5 of SA.  This arc (WaT) is about him gaining the right mindset to become a high level leader.  He's naturally good as a squad leader type, but when he was leading all the Windrunners it was just too much for him - he couldn't pull back and look at the big picture.  Every loss crushed him.  Chapter 6 was about Dalinar planting the seed that Kaladin is capable of being a leader like this and that he needs to forget his prejudices and take up the mantle.

I'm not saying he couldn't take up the Honor shard but I don't really want that to happen.  I feel like there is a lot of character growth left for Kaladin that can't happen if he becomes a Shard.  I'd like to see him learn to become part of a family, to lead people and make hard choices, to learn to love himself and someone else.  There has been a lot of foreshadowing (mostly in comments from Syl) that Kaladin needs to learn these things.  I could see SA6-10 including a bit of sideplot where Kaladin gets to be happy and grow, since I expect he won't be a major character in those books.  This is more my hope than a prediction though haha.

I very much hope that the promise of His Majesty Kaladin Stormblessed is fulfilled -- he is already a natural leader and a radiant, a darkeyes who became a lighteyes, and who therefore understands both parts of the society well enough to unite them.

Besides, if Syladin happens, he will have a spren for a queen (I think with Ishar's experiments, spren might make it to the PR, so that could be useful).

And it does open up a whole new arc for Kal in the back five books of SA. Long live the King!

Edited August 19, 2024 by Little_Dagger

[duladen he/him]

Okay possibilities for the author of KoWaT…

- Jasnah

- Shallan

- Sigzil

- Zahel

Anyone else?

That death rattle realllly seems to be about Kaladin eh? Worried about Dalinar and the fate of the Cosmere…

That’s 2 mentions of the Wind vanishing - what happens to her!? Where do the Heralds go?

And lastly - Mishram depicted as a Singer is a very cool detail.

edit: spelling

Edited August 19, 2024 by duladen

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

As someone who has always thought that Kaladin does a tad too much in the story, I sincerely hope that he doesn't become king of Urithiru. Feels too much, in my opinion. Also, this guy Dami, have we seen him before? 

Also, the epigraphs. The Heralds are gone (back to Braize?) and the person writing is a scholar. Going by currently known rosharan scholars, that would make Jasnah, Navani, and arguably Shallan into plausible candidates. Or it could of course be someone who becomes a scholar during/after the events of the book, by which point it could be basically anyone. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Maybe in book 5 we learn how to get off world? And the heralds and the wind nope out of Roshar? 

[NewGuy 16]

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, the epigraphs. The Heralds are gone (back to Braize?) and the person writing is a scholar. Going by currently known rosharan scholars, that would make Jasnah, Navani, and arguably Shallan into plausible candidates. Or it could of course be someone who becomes a scholar during/after the events of the book, by which point it could be basically anyone. 

I wonder if it could be another work by Hessi—the scholar who managed to figure out an impressive amount about the Unmade in Mythica! Always wondered whether they were just a good scholar or something more significant.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Maybe in book 5 we learn how to get off world? And the heralds and the wind nope out of Roshar? 

I hope that the Heralds get their peace, but unless the inworld book is written after the back half, im not sure how we have herald main characters if they leave Roshar in this book. 

[the_archduke]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Or it could of course be someone who becomes a scholar during/after the events of the book, by which point it could be basically anyone. 

As the book is going to take place over 10 days, I can't see "during"

[Shardsplinter he/him]

This week's epigraphs gave me the distinct impression that the author is a shin scholar that we might not know yet (but could feature heavily in Szeth flashbacks so it's not out of nowhere). They say the Wind spoke to them as a child wich doesn't match any of our main characters for whom scholar or historian match as descriptions. The mention of the two sources seems to refere to Kal and Szeth.

Of course all of this could be turn 180 at any point since it's pretty early to speculate and we are talking about Sanderson but this is what makes the most sense for me right now.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

7 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

As the book is going to take place over 10 days, I can't see "during"

Fair point, although a lot will be going down in these ten days. 

But hey, crackpot idea - what if it's Ishar? He is scholarly and will be present for the Shinovar-stuff. Granted, the "Heralds-are-gone"-thing is a problem, but maybe he gets off on a technicality by renouncing his Herald-ness or something?

[RedBlue]

Regarding the death rattle.

Has anyone else looked closely at the picture on Kaladin’s chapter headers? It’s a bunch of spears held aloft. The central spear has a flapping banner tied to it — or maybe it could be a cloak.

The banner/cloak has three symbols on it. The central one is a long arrow, or maybe a spear. The symbols either side are hidden in the folds of the fabric.

If we assume the cloak is the same cloak Dalinar gave to Kaladin way back in WoK, the other two glyphs are stylised as a tower and a crown.

Quote

He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown and the spear!

 

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Little_Dagger said:

I very much hope that the promise of His Majesty Kaladin Stormblessed is fulfilled -- he is already a natural leader and a radiant, a darkeyes who became a lighteyes, and who therefore understands both parts of the society well enough to unite them.

Besides, if Syladin happens, he will have a spren for a queen (I think with Ishar's experiments, spren might make it to the PR, so that could be useful).

And it does open up a whole new arc for Kal in the back five books of SA. Long live the King!

Not a huge fan of the Syladin ship personally, but agree with everything else.

 

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

As someone who has always thought that Kaladin does a tad too much in the story, I sincerely hope that he doesn't become king of Urithiru. Feels too much, in my opinion. Also, this guy Dami, have we seen him before? 

Also, the epigraphs. The Heralds are gone (back to Braize?) and the person writing is a scholar. Going by currently known rosharan scholars, that would make Jasnah, Navani, and arguably Shallan into plausible candidates. Or it could of course be someone who becomes a scholar during/after the events of the book, by which point it could be basically anyone. 

I think you could maybe say Kaladin did too much in the first two books, he does practically nothing in OB and RoW.  I think he is going to play a bigger and more active role in this book though.  If he does become King of Urithiru at some point in WaT then I think it makes sense both in terms of being prominent as far as on screen pagecount, since he's always been the male lead of the story and in terms of in universe justification since he has also been Dalinar's most trusted confidant since at least late WoR but really important since the end of WoK.  If I was Dalinar, I would also choose him to be essentially leader of the Knights Radiant and associates.  It would be really hard to put a non Radiant in charge of Urithiru (ruling out Alethi high princes, etc) and Kaladin is the logical choice if both Dalinar and Navani are out of the picture.  

 

Anyway, aside from all that I think if Kaladin does become king and survive/continue into the back 5 novels, I see it as a significant reduction in his role/on screen time.  The king of Urithiru is going to spend most of their time bound up with administrative responsibilities and other duties to their people.  So, whoever does take on that position is not going to be out actively adventuring or taking much on screen time.  Every now and again, they'll get a scene pondering the future, offering advice, declaring war, etc, but they won't be driving the narrative.  That's why I say it would make sense if he moves into that role for SA6+ and lets the younger generation take the lead.

If you're more concerned about power creep, etc then I would say that becoming the Honor shard is even worse, though I don't know if you're in favor of that.  To me, that just doesn't seem like a good fit for him.  He doesn't seem to fit the type like Sazed or Taravangian who have always been focused on big picture items.  I could see him in a Vin-like situation where he basically holds the shard very briefly and goes out in a blaze of glory but I like Kaladin so I hope that doesn't happen for him, personally.

 

[Etedbert he/him]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

Regarding the death rattle.

Has anyone else looked closely at the picture on Kaladin’s chapter headers? It’s a bunch of spears held aloft. The central spear has a flapping banner tied to it — or maybe it could be a cloak.

The banner/cloak has three symbols on it. The central one is a long arrow, or maybe a spear. The symbols either side are hidden in the folds of the fabric.

If we assume the cloak is the same cloak Dalinar gave to Kaladin way back in WoK, the other two glyphs are stylised as a tower and a crown.

 

I think that Glyph is meant to be a stylized version of Sadeas’ glyph, probably one used by spearmen in Sadeas’ army. Kaladin would have used it as squad leader in Amaram’s army pre-WOK.

it would be interesting to see a new glyph to mark Kal as heir/ lord of Urithiru, but idk if he’d end up taking the Kholin glyphs. Which seem to be orders of magnitude more intricate than any other glyphpairs we’ve seen. (I blame that pompous a** Gavilar)

[Smye]

3 hours ago, the_archduke said:

As the book is going to take place over 10 days, I can't see "during"

We don't really know that the book will take place only over 10 days. While that's everyone's expectation and certainly what Brandon has led us to believe, it's entirely possible that the Contest of Champions takes place in Part 2 or 3, leaving us with roughly have of WaT for post-CoC.

On an unrelated note: I'm surprised not to see any discussion yet regarding Towerlight being used by Radiants while within a certain radius of the tower but then the light failing them beyond it. We've got Lift using Lifelight she metabolizes herself, Radiants using Stormlight from spheres/the storm, and seemingly everyone (though I suppose I don't think we know for sure with Lift) using Towerlight, but only when in the right places... what other limitations are there on the various lights? And could previously unusable light become useable under the right conditions? Could it be that Kal himself even used voidlight back in RoW during/after his final confrontation with The Pursuer?

Edited August 19, 2024 by Smye
Clarification of a new thought

[teknopathetic he/him]

Isn’t the second half of the 10 book series supposed to be herald focused? They can’t have … gone too far. 

[Diomedes]

Kaladin taking up the title would mean something happened to Navani. I don`t like this at all. 

And if Ishar is in Shinovar, how is Szeth going to "cleanse" Shinovar? Fighting of all the Shin Surgebinders and Shardholders would be a tough job, but Ishar, who is the best fencer alive, on top of that? More questions and questions.

I noticed the similar phrasing between Szeth`s mission to "cleanse" the Shin leaders and the historic "cleansing of Shinovar" spoken of in the epigraph. This is surely intentional. There has to be some connection between the two events.

Perhaps something similar was historically about to happen to Shinovar as what happened on Ashyn or what Shattered the Shattered Plains. But it was stopped in the last minute, and left Shinovar vulnerable to destruction if just a little bit of, for a lack of a better term, "destructive" Surgebinding was exercised. This would be a good moment to fully reveal what happened in the Recreance.

Could this explain the Shin pacifist attitude and their special relationship to shards? Because they could destroy Shinovar very easily if they are not very careful? Maybe Szeths ends up unintentionally destroying Shinovar, and  he is the guy referred to in the deathrattle: "A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears." 

Edit: @teknopathetic Taln gets a book in the second half. The others not so much. Maybe he vanishes and reappers again.

Edited August 19, 2024 by Diomedes

[Smye]

1 minute ago, Diomedes said:

I noticed the similar phrasing between Szeth`s mission to "cleanse" the Shin leaders and the historic "cleansing of Shinovar" spoken of in the epigraph. This is surely intentional. There has to be some connection between the two events.

I believe these two events to be one and the same, both in the 'future' from our perspective as of Ch 6. Are you thinking of the Scouring of Aimia when referencing historical events?

[Diomedes]

8 minutes ago, Smye said:

I believe these two events to be one and the same, both in the 'future' from our perspective as of Ch 6. Are you thinking of the Scouring of Aimia when referencing historical events?

Well it speaks of the Heralds and the Winds having been the only witnesses still alive for the cleansing. And they have vanished. Therefore it must be an event in the distant past for which their are no other Sources, apart from the two other ones. (Stormfather and Cultivation?) 

Also the cleansing of the Shin leadership would hardly be decribed as the cleansing of Shinovar as a country. There is more to this (though my spitballing above probably is not it).

Edited August 19, 2024 by Diomedes

[Ashbringer he/him]

11 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Edit: @teknopathetic Taln gets a book in the second half. The others not so much. Maybe he vanishes and reappers again.

Ash (the Herald Shalash, not me) gets one as well. Although that one's lined up to be the Dustbringer book which... is odd for the Lightweaver Herald.

 

5 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Well it speaks of the Heralds and the Winds having been the only witnesses still alive for the cleansing. And they have vanished. Therefore it must be an event in the distant past for which their are no other Sources, apart from the two other ones. (Stormfather and Cultivation?) 

Or Odium and Cultivation.

Or, more likely, Kaladin and Szeth. It does say that it's the writer who has only two sources, not everyone in existence, and the cleansing is what Szeth seems to be planning to do in Shinovar.

I do think the Heralds "vanishing" isn't as definitive as it seems. It could be that the Oathpact in some form is restored and the Heralds simply return to Braize, or they lose their Herald-ness, or something else happens.