Vin(Diesel) Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 Truthwatchers watch truth. At least, Renarin watches truth, and he does so by watching the future. It’s believed that he can do that because he’s an enlightened Truthwatcher, which creates an obvious question: in what sense are non-enlightened Truthwatchers truth watchers? It isn’t progression/healing, obviously. Please don’t tell me that lightweaving is considered truth watching. If Truthwatcher lightweaving usually includes gold allomancy type visions of lost possibilities, then I guess I can see that, but that is just the ability to see things that don’t exist, can’t exist, but could have existed, and it seems a bit of a stretch to call that truth. I think we need to learn more about the Truthwatcher resonance. I believe Wind and Truth is supposed to have a lot of Renarin in it, so I am optimistic about getting answers soon.
RoyalBeeMage he/him Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 3 hours ago, Vin(Diesel) said: think we need to learn more about the Truthwatcher resonance. I believe Wind and Truth is supposed to have a lot of Renarin in it, so I am optimistic about getting answers soon. dont forget that everything with renarin in should be taken with a grain of salt as he is an enlightened radiant and could have a warlight resonance.
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 Normal non-Enlightened Truthwatchers are said to be more like investigative journalists, they look for the truth but that doesn't require that they need to see the future for it. 'Truthwatching' would just be someone being nosy. 3
Elite01 Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 For what it’s worth truthwatcher seems to match the ideals of its surges illumination - truth progression - looking out for the average citizen combine the two and you get an order of knights who want to find truth for the general good of people, providing contrast to lightweavers individual truth. 2
alder24 Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 8 hours ago, Vin(Diesel) said: Truthwatchers watch truth. At least, Renarin watches truth, and he does so by watching the future. It’s believed that he can do that because he’s an enlightened Truthwatcher, which creates an obvious question: in what sense are non-enlightened Truthwatchers truth watchers? It isn’t progression/healing, obviously. Please don’t tell me that lightweaving is considered truth watching. If Truthwatcher lightweaving usually includes gold allomancy type visions of lost possibilities, then I guess I can see that, but that is just the ability to see things that don’t exist, can’t exist, but could have existed, and it seems a bit of a stretch to call that truth. I think we need to learn more about the Truthwatcher resonance. I believe Wind and Truth is supposed to have a lot of Renarin in it, so I am optimistic about getting answers soon. I'm also interested in it. Truthwaching is a combination of both Surges, not just one, just like Windrunning isn't just the Surge of Gravitation - it's both. I bet Truthwatchers can see the present and maybe some glimpses of the past (more like Malatium does), which would allow them to see through any secret and uncover every truth. But this is a big speculation, based on official descriptions of their order. There are some differences in how Truthwatchers can use the Surge of Illumination, so maybe they don't use them to create illusions of lies but to show truths instead. Moreover Truthwatchers are placed in the unique position - next to Bondsmiths - in the Double Eye of the Almighty chart and this is because they have a bigger connection to CR and SR, like Bondsmiths do, which in my mind is definitely related to what they see. I really want to see a powerset of a normal Truthwatcher, but Brandon said he's gonna reveal more about Truthwachers in Renarin's book - it's a long wait ahead of us. Spoiler TGJackass The Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are depicted separate from the other Orders in that neat little chart. Why is that? I get that the Bondsmiths are special, but why are the Truthwatchers beneath them, in the middle? And is there a reasoning behind how the other Orders are placed, beyond just what surge they share? Brandon Sanderson So, yes and originally I had a lot more with this chart that was going to be meaningful for the magic system and things like that. And it turns out this was way too complicated to work into the book. You can maybe see some of it in Way of Kings Prime. I can't remember how much of it's in there, but at the end of the day, when I was building it, I'm like, "I am... this is one of those times where I'm doing a little too much, getting too much into the weeds," so to speak. But you can, you will be able to... See, it's tricky because you're gonna be seeing a lot of Renarin version of Truthwatchers and less of other version of Truthwatchers. But let's say that Truthwatchers have some sort of abilities relating to Cognitive and Spiritual Realm set in a similar way to Bondsmiths, and because of that they were often kind of opposed but aligned, and the chart is a human construction trying to explain things—much as the same way that the Allomantic chart is—and because of that, they're responding to things that have happened, that are partially cultural partially, part of the magic and they built the charts, if that makes sense. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) Spoiler GrandAdmiralThrawn10 As a Truthwatcher I am curious, are we going to learn the standard ideals that Stump would give, or will we just learn the ones that Renarin and Rlain speak, since they are bonded to Enlightened spren? Need to know what my ideals are. Brandon Sanderson You will learn those both. You will learn the differences between them. I'm kind of being dodgy until I get to Renarin's book for some of this stuff, but my goal will be to give you both sets of ideals. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) 3
Stormtide_Leviathan Posted July 7, 2024 Posted July 7, 2024 Illumination and progression both have a heavy spiritual component. Illumination has aspects similar to gold allomancy and we see this with shallan, with it highlighting versions of a person that they could be. Progression, meanwhile, is healing which in the cosmere works via aligning a person's body with their spiritual conception of themself. so truthwatchers seem well set up for seeing a person's True Self, in a way
CtrlAltDepressed Posted July 8, 2024 Posted July 8, 2024 On 7/6/2024 at 9:57 PM, Vin(Diesel) said: Please don’t tell me that lightweaving is considered truth watching. If Truthwatcher lightweaving usually includes gold allomancy type visions of lost possibilities, then I guess I can see that, but that is just the ability to see things that don’t exist, can’t exist, but could have existed, and it seems a bit of a stretch to call that truth. I have been envisioning something like this: There is a murder. A suspect is brought before a Truthwatcher. With the suspects consent, the Truthwatcher is able to Connect to them and create a Lightweaving of that persons perception of the event - revealing the truth. Like watching their memory. Or a Truthwatcher could come upon someone recently murdered, Connect to them, and see how they were killed through their eyes. 2
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted July 9, 2024 Posted July 9, 2024 I've always assumed that it was like this but with also a "psychometry" style thing, like they can make illusions of past events related to people or objects and thereby discern the Truth of what happened to someone/something. The flipside of that then is the Renarin/Rlain version where they see the coming Truths
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted July 9, 2024 Posted July 9, 2024 So was the gem recording of the ancient Truthwatcher admitting "I foresaw this" a red herring, or could Truthwatchers see the future before the enlightened spren came along? If that's the case, was that with Honor's "limited" ability to see the future, and Renarin and Rlain have Odium's "superior to Honor's" ability to see the future?
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted July 9, 2024 Posted July 9, 2024 3 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: So was the gem recording of the ancient Truthwatcher admitting "I foresaw this" a red herring, or could Truthwatchers see the future before the enlightened spren came along? If that's the case, was that with Honor's "limited" ability to see the future, and Renarin and Rlain have Odium's "superior to Honor's" ability to see the future? Great question! I guess there are 4 choices on interpreting that until we see more non-Enlightened Truthwatchers in action This truthwatcher "foresaw" it in that they could see the "train wreck coming" and whispered because they weren't brave enough to say anything Honor Truthwatchers have a more dim future sight as you said, but by this point without Honor or the Heralds around, it had already become stigmatized as "of Odium" so they weren't trained in it and weren't familiar with it As #2, but it's a "full Future sight" and they weren't trained in its use/interpretation/sharing it Renarin is NOT the first Enlightened Truthwatcher I think any of them are viable interpretations as this point, though I tend to lean either with #2 (your idea) or #4 personally 1
alder24 Posted July 9, 2024 Posted July 9, 2024 4 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said: So was the gem recording of the ancient Truthwatcher admitting "I foresaw this" a red herring, or could Truthwatchers see the future before the enlightened spren came along? If that's the case, was that with Honor's "limited" ability to see the future, and Renarin and Rlain have Odium's "superior to Honor's" ability to see the future? I suspect it's nothing. Renarin is the first of his kind, the first one to bond an enlightened spren and the first one to see the future. This Truthwatcher from the past just saw how badly things are going between Radiants and the Sibling and predicted by this knowledge what will happen. Honor was not dead back then. Renarin's ability to see the future is directly Connected to one of the signs on the Voidbinding chart (2nd WoB, check out the footnote). RoW ch 54: Quote “You needn’t try to protect my ego, Father. When Glys and I bonded, we became … something new. We see the future. At first I was confused at my place—but I’ve come to understand. What I see interferes with Odium’s ability. Because I can see possibilities of the future, my knowledge changes what I will do. Therefore, his ability to see my future is obscured. Anyone close to me is difficult for him to read.” Spoiler Wyndlerunner So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed? Brandon Sanderson What an excellent question. Yes he is. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Spoiler Argent Renarin, his visions of the future are they connected to one of his Surges? Both of them? Are they a side-effect of his order? Brandon Sanderson Umm... Argent Like I can kind of fit in the two of them... Brandon Sanderson Alright, how much of a spoiler do you want on this? Argent All of it. Brandon Sanderson *Incredulously* Really? Argent Is that even a question for me? Brandon Sanderson Do you want to know something secret that you then can't post? Argent *sighs* How-- Is it something that is going to come up in Book 3-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --or later. Brandon Sanderson It comes up in Book 3. Argent I'll bear the burden. Brandon Sanderson You'll bear the burden meaning I can tell you? Argent I'm going to pause this actually... *Audio paused* Footnote: Argent and Brandon revealed some of the secret discussion here. Argent explained a bit more on the 17th Shard as well. Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) Spoiler Argent Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent Is that what voidbinding is? Brandon Sanderson No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017) 3
ArchangelCaesar Posted July 10, 2024 Posted July 10, 2024 If you combine the investigative journalist remarks with the Cognitive/Spiritual remarks, the reconstruction of memory or of true events based off the *objects* perception/memory of them through illumination is probable If anyone has played Disco Elysium and had a high Visual Calculus, I imagine it like that, being able to reconstruct crime scenes magically similar to how Shallan interacted with Stick, but just Connecting objects with where they were. this opens up so many interesting moral/ethical/legal questions too. How reliable is memory as "truth" if that is what is being reconstructed? How moral is it to extract the truth of memory from someone forcefully and is that equivalent and as unreliable as confession by torture? Can you fake your own memory/perception? How does Storage of Memories thing that Hoid did affect this illumination? So many fun avenues to waltz down 2
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