Wind and Truth: What is the loophole? [Discuss]

[BinarySecond]

Ah my mistake, I just finished Rhythm of War again and didn't remember that part.

[clowncarcrash]

On 6/10/2024 at 7:26 AM, NH2316 said:

That's fair - "hostilities" are a part of a contest and necessary, and the "hostilities" to be ended which the contract refers to are ostensibly hostile actions instigated by odium and his agents after the contest.  It makes me wonder though, with the suicide attack / collateral damage idea, what if odium engineers it so that whatever collateral damage occurs as a result of their champion losing causes hostilities from a third party organically that nevertheless serves odiums ends?  The sort of thing I picture is something like odium closes their champion, that champion loses, but either because of who that champion is or collateral damage that occurs during the contest, a powerful third party (someone with nightblood, a bondsmith, a powerful spren, a world-hopper, etc.) decides of their own volition that it's necessary to do something that ultimately serves odium anyway.  The extreme example would be someone revenge-kills Cultivation with nightblood, and while narratively I admit I don't know how that works , I'm not a writer and have confidence Brandon could figure it out.  Maybe a less extreme version could be something happens in the contest that puts the potential world-ending dangers of surgebinding as a magic system on display (something hinted at through these books, and I think in some WoB) --> this freaks out the radiants themselves, Cultivation, the heralds, or the people of roshar, the people of a different world hopping planet, etc. --> the freaked out party seeks to limit surgebinders or their works in a way that as a by-product is a boon to odium (a mass revolt against the radiants, ending whatever remains of the oathpact, a second recreance which this time takes out the bondsmith spren too, a world hopper group like the ghost bloods radicalizing to target Roshar as a threat, etc.).  Again, admittedly I don't know how you get from a-->z with specifics, but I'm not a writer. Anyway, the end result is you have scenario A: Odium's champion wins, odium wins, B. odiums champion loses, but odium still gets a powerful boon out of it that is just fine by odium in the grander timescale.  Shards seem pretty strongly bound to the meaning of their oaths and not just the letter based on what Rayse says (although that assumes Rayse was right, and that Taravodium is bound to the same degree), so the maneuvering odium needs to do would have to be so subtle that the actions of the third party here are entirely their choice. However, I don't see that requirement any different from the "child champion" loophole - if Odium choosing an innocent target knowing it will cause dalinar to forfeit is OK, then I can't see how choosing a champion that results in a revenge campaign or populist uprising against the radiants would be more out of bounds.

 

Totally aside, this will not be the loophole because it's so absurd, but I find the idea below (from a 2020 Wolverine comic by Benjamin Percy) as a hilarious loophole in this kind of classic fantasy "contest of champions" / "fight to the death" plot:

You did not get nearly enough love for that X of Swords panel. Absolutely wonderful. 

 

Anyway, I wonder if TOdium is bound to the "spirit" of the deal like Odium is, or if his personality or because he hasn't been a god for that long if he's able to do word of the law foolery like this. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 6/14/2024 at 11:26 PM, fievelgoespostal said:

Who says the Contest even happens?  What if something cataclysmic happens that keeps the Contest from even occurring?

Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces.

Where does it say the "contest" is a physical battle? If not specified, who gets to determine it?

Like, what if the "contest" could be, I dunno, a chouta eating contest? ... To the DEATH?!

"Ah, Dalinar," chuckled Odium to himself. "You set yourself up to fail. You HATE chouta!"

[Subvisual Haze]

Maybe Gavilar was onto something and Heralds are sort of the same thing as Honor's designated Champions.  And since Taln alone never gave up his Herald status, Odium can claim Taln must stand as Honor's champion?  Which in his current state would be less than ideal for Team Honor.

[The Stick]

Not necessarily. Sanderson said that at his prime, he could think of nobody who could beat Taln. Now granted, Taln is not exactly in his best shape, but he is still likely very very powerful, plus, if Kaladin can learn to heal Ishi, he might be able to heal Taln.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Maybe Gavilar was onto something and Heralds are sort of the same thing as Honor's designated Champions.  And since Taln alone never gave up his Herald status, Odium can claim Taln must stand as Honor's champion?  Which in his current state would be less than ideal for Team Honor.

It must be a willing champion, Taln can't give his consent. RoW ch 112:

Quote

We each send a willing champion [...]

However, in Odium's best interest is to avoid fighting Taln at all costs. Even in his less ideal state, Taln caught darts mid-air like it was nothing. It only takes a Radiant swearing an Oath near Taln during the Contest for Taln to regain his sanity for long enough to mop the floor with Odium's champion. 

Spoiler

#1 Taln Fan

Who in the Cosmere could beat Taln in a fight back when he was in his prime?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends what level of abilities he has access to. If you're saying access to full abilities, I don't know of anybody who could beat him in an actual one-on-one.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

[+robardin he/him]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It must be a willing champion, Taln can't give his consent. RoW ch 112:

However, in Odium's best interest is to avoid fighting Taln at all costs. Even in his less ideal state, Taln caught darts mid-air like it was nothing. It only takes a Radiant swearing an Oath near Taln during the Contest for Taln to regain his sanity for long enough to mop the floor with Odium's champion. 

  Hide contents

#1 Taln Fan

Who in the Cosmere could beat Taln in a fight back when he was in his prime?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends what level of abilities he has access to. If you're saying access to full abilities, I don't know of anybody who could beat him in an actual one-on-one.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

I still think TOdium's insight is more subtle than "I can pick a champion who will definitely win".

His thought was, "The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied? -- It can still be done, ... Dalinar has set himself up to fail."

We all assume - are supposed to assume - that Taravangian seeing a way that "Dalinar has set himself up to fail", that that means "set himself up to lose the Contest of Champions". But what if it's just that he sees a way such that even if Odium's Champion is defeated - or perhaps even, especially if his champion is defeated, in a specific way - he Taravangian is still "satisfied" as to advancing his greater goals?

Because to be honest, we don't know what they are any more. It was RAYSE'S goal to Splinter/eliminate all other Shards to be the "only god" in the Cosmere. That's not actually the Intent of Odium, which is why Rayse was beginning to struggle so much in controlling himself.

Taravangian knows "his predecessor's plans", but that doesn't mean he's obliged to continue to pursue them.

Instead, he "knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods", and that with him as Odium now, "Taravangian was going to save them all."

Also, it occurs to me that when Taravangian said he inherited "some of the knowledge" of his predecessor - what Rayse had done with the power of Odium after Ascending - like Harmony, he wouldn't have the background knowledge of events leading to the Splintering of Adonalsium, the natures (or identities) of the other Shards, and so on.

But Hoid does. And Taravangian had rummaged through his Breath-stored memories to snip out the part where he inadvertently gave away that Odium was no longer held by Rayse, but someone much more thoughtful.

It's quite possible that TOdium now knows most of what Hoid does, and quite likely what Hoid planned/is planning to do.

Edited August 6, 2024 by robardin

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

I still think TOdium's insight is more subtle than "I can pick a champion who will definitely win".

His thought was, "The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied? -- It can still be done, ... Dalinar has set himself up to fail."

We all assume - are supposed to assume - that Taravangian seeing a way that "Dalinar has set himself up to fail", that that means "set himself up to lose the Contest of Champions". But what if it's just that he sees a way such that even if Odium's Champion is defeated - or perhaps even, especially if his champion is defeated, in a specific way - he Taravangian is still "satisfied" as to advancing his greater goals?

I agree, it's not about the fight itself. In my opinion it's about forcing Dalinar to break the terms and get rid of the content entirely and be free of Honor's restrictions. 

[𐐡𐐁𐐂𐐢 𐐎𐐊𐐤 Disciple of Christ]

On 8/6/2024 at 6:20 AM, alder24 said:

I agree, it's not about the fight itself. In my opinion it's about forcing Dalinar to break the terms and get rid of the content entirely and be free of Honor's restrictions. 

Would TOdium waiting for another thousand years to come back to the fight be satisfying enough for him? Would watching Dalinar completely in pain be satisfying? Would "saving" Karbaranth be satisfying enough? We should think what would satisfy him.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, 𐐡𐐁𐐂𐐢 𐐎𐐊𐐤 said:

Would TOdium waiting for another thousand years to come back to the fight be satisfying enough for him? Would watching Dalinar completely in pain be satisfying? Would "saving" Karbaranth be satisfying enough? We should think what would satisfy him.

The "wait a thousand years" term got removed during negotiations. All that's at stake in the final contract is:

• Alethkar
• Herdaz
• Dalinar's soul

No matter who wins, the coalition and the Fused each get to keep all their other territory and Dalinar and Odium both have to work to maintain the peace.

[alder24]

8 hours ago, 𐐡𐐁𐐂𐐢 𐐎𐐊𐐤 said:

Would TOdium waiting for another thousand years to come back to the fight be satisfying enough for him? Would watching Dalinar completely in pain be satisfying? Would "saving" Karbaranth be satisfying enough? We should think what would satisfy him.

Taravangian was that Cosmere is in chaos, ruled by fools and he wants to "save them all." However he is very limited in his actions because he is chained by Honor to the Rosharan system, unable to leave, unable to directly use his powers on most individuals - unable to influence others on distant planets more directly. Rayse wanted to get out of Roshar, but Dalinar didn't let him. Taravangian didn't think the final terms were satisfying enough for him (and for Rayse). In order for Taravangian to become a major player on the wider Cosmere stage, he needs to get rid of those restrictions placed on Odium by Honor. This won't mean Odium will abandon Roshar and search for a new planet to settle - he's too invested on Roshar now to get out without a massive struggle. Odium needs Roshar and its resources, which mostly means skilled soldiers, for his war among stars.

RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void."
[...]
Odium chuckled softly, rotating his scepter beneath his hand so the butt ground against the golden stone at their feet. “Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?”
“To destroy us.”
“Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar.” Odium shook his head, staring into the infinite golden distance. “I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle of the gods. A battle for everything.
“Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.”
[...]
“This is all I ask for my victory: As you represent Honor, you can relax his prohibitions on me. No matter what happens in the contest, you never have to worry about me again. All I want is away from this miserable system.”

RoW ch 114:

Quote

But … beyond that, what of the entire cosmere? He couldn’t see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor’s plans, and had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods.
There was so much to do. He sorted through Odium’s previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn’t he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.
[...]
And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

[Diomedes]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

which mostly means skilled soldiers,

And all that inverstiture from Honor flowing around that he can corrupt or make subservient to his intent, like a deadeyed sharblade or a shardplate.

I personally think Dalinar will lose the contest and wil serve as general for Todium`s army of among the stars, with an army of Radiants loyal to Odium( like the Skybreakers).Its just and idea though not a theory which I thought through.

[Master Silver]

I still think that Taravangian should just go to Dalinar and say look man, I already won. I killed. I saved the world and I did it without you. Now we have a chance to save the Cosmere together. Todium could probably get Cultivation to go with him to meet Dalinar. On the other hand, it says a willing champion. And I know it has been mentioned before, but this is maybe a slightly different angel. What if Odium convinces a child (likely human) that the best way to save the world and Alethkar is for them to be his champion and lose. And if he wins, he gets to be king of Alethkar. Put in that way, Gavinor might accept being the champion in honor of his father. 

 

 

[Naerin]

I think we need to consider the loophole in light of the switch from Rayse to Taravangian. Remember, the reason Hoid doesn't see this loophole is probably because he misunderstands who he is dealing with. With that in mind, I think it will boil down to the nature of the "contest" of champions. Contest doesn't need to mean a fight. A murder trial is, in a way, a contest "to the death." Rayse would, I think, interpret a contest straightforwardly, as a battle. But Taravangian? Think about the arc between him and Dalinar. They have been in a contest against each other this whole time. But it has been a contest of philosophy, their competing ideals of what it means to be a ruler. 

I think that the new Odium will introduce a contest similar to the debates he and Dalinar have already been having, about how to resolve different ethical scenarios, but on a grander stage - made literal in some way. I think it would be interesting if it came down to a contest of rulers, some kind of competition to see who was the more "just" or effective ruler of their respective kingdoms. I'm not sure what that would entail, but I think it would be so interesting, as a natural extension of the conflict Dalinar and Taravangian have already been having over the course of their relationship. And it is something that Rayse would never have thought of, and therefore Hoid wouldn't have considered it either. It's a loophole in the sense that the nature of the contest was never clarified. 

[+robardin he/him]

15 minutes ago, Naerin said:

I think we need to consider the loophole in light of the switch from Rayse to Taravangian. Remember, the reason Hoid doesn't see this loophole is probably because he misunderstands who he is dealing with. With that in mind, I think it will boil down to the nature of the "contest" of champions. Contest doesn't need to mean a fight. A murder trial is, in a way, a contest "to the death." Rayse would, I think, interpret a contest straightforwardly, as a battle. But Taravangian? Think about the arc between him and Dalinar. They have been in a contest against each other this whole time. But it has been a contest of philosophy, their competing ideals of what it means to be a ruler. 

I think that the new Odium will introduce a contest similar to the debates he and Dalinar have already been having, about how to resolve different ethical scenarios, but on a grander stage - made literal in some way. I think it would be interesting if it came down to a contest of rulers, some kind of competition to see who was the more "just" or effective ruler of their respective kingdoms. I'm not sure what that would entail, but I think it would be so interesting, as a natural extension of the conflict Dalinar and Taravangian have already been having over the course of their relationship. And it is something that Rayse would never have thought of, and therefore Hoid wouldn't have considered it either. It's a loophole in the sense that the nature of the contest was never clarified. 

And yet Dalinar (without knowing that Taravangian has Ascended as Odium) has already realized this in Ch. 6, it'd be funny if Hoid didn't because he "knows" Rayse wouldn't be that way.

“But I can’t imagine what the contest will be like. I feel it won’t be a clash of swords, but what? What am I missing? Have I doomed us, Kaladin?” 

And remember, Taravangian feels that his loophole guarantees his satisfaction regardless of the outcome, not that he sees a way to fix the outcome itself.

And I'd venture that even as the just-Ascended Shard, I think TOdium immediately could foresee that Dalinar would/did pick himself as his own champion. Because that's just the kind of guy Dalinar is. Taravangian probably would have expected that even as a mortal man.

Edited August 20, 2024 by robardin

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:02 AM, Master Silver said:

I still think that Taravangian should just go to Dalinar and say look man, I already won. I killed. I saved the world and I did it without you. Now we have a chance to save the Cosmere together.

I think that Todium and Dalinar will have very different definitions of 'saving' the Cosmere haha 

[Wyndle88 he/him]

If Dalinar ends up fighting the contest himself, i cant wait to see Stormfather becoming a Shardblade. 

[Master Silver]

If the contest is a series of different events, Odium could theoretically stretch it out for a very, very long time. Have the contest span years... 20 years. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

If the contest is a series of different events, Odium could theoretically stretch it out for a very, very long time. Have the contest span years... 20 years. 

Wow... That's a new take, LOL.

I mean, it is to the death. So Odium could send the immortal Nale as his Champion (ironic, isn't it?) and just... Outlive Dalinar in any game of attrition!

"We each play Solitaire until one of us wins, with equal decks of 51 cards, and the loser forfeits his life. Take as many meal, potty, etc. breaks as you like!"

Edited August 24, 2024 by robardin

[fievelgoespostal]

On 8/20/2024 at 11:59 AM, Naerin said:

I think we need to consider the loophole in light of the switch from Rayse to Taravangian. Remember, the reason Hoid doesn't see this loophole is probably because he misunderstands who he is dealing with. With that in mind, I think it will boil down to the nature of the "contest" of champions. Contest doesn't need to mean a fight. A murder trial is, in a way, a contest "to the death." Rayse would, I think, interpret a contest straightforwardly, as a battle. But Taravangian? Think about the arc between him and Dalinar. They have been in a contest against each other this whole time. But it has been a contest of philosophy, their competing ideals of what it means to be a ruler. 

I think that the new Odium will introduce a contest similar to the debates he and Dalinar have already been having, about how to resolve different ethical scenarios, but on a grander stage - made literal in some way. I think it would be interesting if it came down to a contest of rulers, some kind of competition to see who was the more "just" or effective ruler of their respective kingdoms. I'm not sure what that would entail, but I think it would be so interesting, as a natural extension of the conflict Dalinar and Taravangian have already been having over the course of their relationship. And it is something that Rayse would never have thought of, and therefore Hoid wouldn't have considered it either. It's a loophole in the sense that the nature of the contest was never clarified. 

 

I bolded the part that stuck out to me, because what if this ends up having something to do with Adolin and his killing of Sadeas?

[Michael Portz he/him]

On 8/20/2024 at 5:59 PM, Naerin said:

I think we need to consider the loophole in light of the switch from Rayse to Taravangian. Remember, the reason Hoid doesn't see this loophole is probably because he misunderstands who he is dealing with. With that in mind, I think it will boil down to the nature of the "contest" of champions. Contest doesn't need to mean a fight. A murder trial is, in a way, a contest "to the death." Rayse would, I think, interpret a contest straightforwardly, as a battle. But Taravangian? Think about the arc between him and Dalinar. They have been in a contest against each other this whole time. But it has been a contest of philosophy, their competing ideals of what it means to be a ruler. 

I think that the new Odium will introduce a contest similar to the debates he and Dalinar have already been having, about how to resolve different ethical scenarios, but on a grander stage - made literal in some way. I think it would be interesting if it came down to a contest of rulers, some kind of competition to see who was the more "just" or effective ruler of their respective kingdoms. I'm not sure what that would entail, but I think it would be so interesting, as a natural extension of the conflict Dalinar and Taravangian have already been having over the course of their relationship. And it is something that Rayse would never have thought of, and therefore Hoid wouldn't have considered it either. It's a loophole in the sense that the nature of the contest was never clarified. 

This take on the competition sounds suspiciously like a vote among their respective subjects, doesn't it? 

[Master Silver]

On 8/10/2024 at 8:41 PM, 𐐡𐐁𐐂𐐢 𐐎𐐊𐐤 said:

Would TOdium waiting for another thousand years to come back to the fight be satisfying enough for him? Would watching Dalinar completely in pain be satisfying? Would "saving" Karbaranth be satisfying enough? We should think what would satisfy him.

Do you remember that conversation between Dalinar and Taravangian on who do you hang if there are three men. Two innocent and one murderer. Taravangian says hang all three, Dalinar says you must imprison all three. We know Taravangian will kill children. We know Dalinar won't unless they are in a city and he is consumed by the Thrill. So is Dalinar having to admit Taravangian was right, and kill a child satisfying enough for him. He gets 1000 years to learn about his powers and gets to say I told you so and I win and saved everyone. On the other hand, if Dalinar loses Taravangian wins. And if it is a draw, and Dalinar waits 20 years the war gets to keep going. (I know others have said this theory about a child). But it would be so Dalinar to let the child grow up before dueling them. The we would have a 70 year old Dalinar vs a 20 year old Regal. 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:10 PM, Elder said:

If Odium somehow managed to turn Renarin, that could stay Dalinar’s hand.

Actually, I thought that Renarin would make an amazing champion for Dalinar since he can see futures but Odium cannot see him - the only one Odium cannot see.

[aetherbound he/him]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:10 PM, Elder said:

Something I picked up on: the Champion needs to be willing. Dalinar intends to be his own champion.  If he is unwilling to fight, Odium is free.

if Odium somehow managed to turn Renarin, that could stay Dalinar’s hand.

What if Odium's champion is unwilling, I could see that as a sort of last resort if Odium is about to lose(though it would probably just let cultivation kill him)

[AquaRegia he/him]

I think we know what "the loophole" is now, as of Chapter 18:
 

Spoiler

“Because,” Wit whispered, “if he takes the capitals, he gets the kingdoms. In their entirety.”

“The general idea is this: In Dalinar’s negotiations, he argued for the return of Alethkar and Herdaz. Entire kingdoms. Then he agreed to Odium’s request: Odium can try for entire kingdoms with his attacks. By Alethi law, this means that he has to capture their seat of power. So…”

“So he throws everything he has at Azimir,” Yanagawn whispered. “Because if he can take it, he claims the kingdom. That’s what you’re saying?”

“Unfortunately, yes,” Wit said.

“He promised me,” Dalinar whispered, “that there would be no taking advantage of loopholes. That he would hold to the spirit of the contest. You had to dig through the Alethi legal code for hours to find this. It sounds a lot like a loophole to me.”

“Odium is exploiting a loophole in your agreement. Rayse wouldn’t do that. Rayse couldn’t do that. So…” He looked around the room, meeting their eyes. “So we are not facing Rayse. My old enemy must be dead, and someone else has taken up the Shard of Odium. I should have seen it the moment he started acting so oddly, but now I’ve confirmed it by sensing the rhythms of Roshar. My friends, we are facing an enemy we do not know and cannot anticipate. And whoever it is, they’re a genius—one who has devised a ploy to conquer all of Roshar in ten days.”

We still don't know what form the Contest will take, but the "loophole" seems clear - three attacks at three capitol cities, and, if successful, by Alethi law, three entire kingdoms belong to Odium.