Scadrial VS Roshar

[SPECTRE120]

There are a lot of posts asking who would win, and it always comes down to a Scadrian and a Rosharan. It might be mistborn, twinborn, 3rd ideal radiant, full radiant, etc., but most people have one side they usually agree with, no matter the characteristics. I want to settle the debate once and for all. In general, who do you think would win?

[Quantus]

They each win on their home turf, or at least Roshar wins on theirs.

Non-specific Radiants can outlast anyone not a Fullborn/bloodmaker so long as they have access to plenty of Stormlight.  Most mistings are way more limited but Scadrians dont care what planet they are on for any aspect of their power.

For Rosharan forces to win on Scadrial they would need a Bondsmith or a way to fuel their Powers from the Mists or something.  

EDIT: I admire your optimism, but I know of no Power of God or Mankind that can end settle an internet "Who Would Win" debate once and for all.

Edited May 6 by Quantus

[+hwiles]

Scadrians win on a "build and fight wide" cosmere-scale is my simplified prediction, with the caveat that the exotic worlds with hyper rich sources of easily accessible and easily convertible investiture shall inevitably belong to the Rosharans and their "build and fight tall" approach (or other new factions that closely resemble them), eventually. I don't suspect either could ever hope to "win" an invasion and occupation of the other's home planet to claim a "total" victory in any future war though.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I think is all depends on who is invading who. I will say that so far as I know Roshar is poopoo at invading anyone because so much of their magic is tied to their home world. Just getting stormlight off world will be tricky, that says very little about transporting that bond around the cosmere. I will be sad when Roshar gets a magic hand wavey answer to this and suffers no ill effects from it though. In light of that likely being the case, I think anti magic is going to be a massive deciding factor in it. Both systems are finding weaknesses to themselves, how well those weaknesses are able to be exploited by the other will be a big deciding factor. 

I think that the Tower giving infinite stormlight makes Roshar impossible to actually win over. Even if you beat all of the radiants back and built an aluminum box around them... eventually some bondsmith will just poof into existance the answer anyway. It would be interesting to see how a trellium / harmonium bomb would effect the Tower... if it could break the infinite healing / magic usage glitch that it is. 

I also think that limiting either planet to just their system is wishful thinking. We already see a large powerhouse from Scadrial combining systems from around the cosmere to do some really cool stuff. Primer cubes with leeching powers fueled by pure dor will be an anti magic of its own and the fact that you could probably build them into ammunition makes it even spookier. But can you send ballistics to leech anyone against walking lazer beams? Which brings me to this... what makes division special if lightweavers are going to get lazers anyway? Lazer beams out of hands are lame change my mind. 

I love Scadrial in sci-fi times for its mobility of magic. Same reason I like awakening. The ability to be powerful no matter what planet you step on is a massive advantage. No hacking needed. You have allomancy? You have metal? You have power. Anything short of handwavy shenanigans is going to put Roshar at a disadvantage and I personally grow tired of the answer "because bondsmith said so". 

[therunner]

Honestly, I think the answer will be stalemate (based on the Emberdark readings).

But I'd give slight edge to Roshar. Individually they are stronger, thought at the cost of reliance on more exotic fuel (i.e. Investiture), compared to more self-sufficient Scadrian technology. We know that Connection issue of Radiants will be resolved, and that their technology (fabrials) can run on various kinds of Investiture (fabrials using voidlight).

Also, I'd think that Roshar will have an edge in the earlier stages, as they will have easier time moving between systems, since they have much easier access to Cognitive Realm (Oathgates + Radiants + perpendicularities). But eventually Scadrian will have better mobility, as space-ships will be more flexible and possibly faster, which will move the balance on the other side.

It is also notable that Scadrians sent ship to First of the Sun, but

Spoiler

Roshar seemingly sent a single Radiant.

 

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think that the Tower giving infinite stormlight makes Roshar impossible to actually win over. Even if you beat all of the radiants back and built an aluminum box around them... eventually some bondsmith will just poof into existance the answer anyway. It would be interesting to see how a trellium / harmonium bomb would effect the Tower... if it could break the infinite healing / magic usage glitch that it is.

Trellium bomb would probably not doo much, it is still 'just' a nuke. It might hurt Sibling, but they would regenerate. And Urithirue is gigantic, so you would need something like Tsar bomb to even do proper damage.

But it would not hurt it spiritually, so it would not disable the Investiture generation.

Also, while theoretically Bondsmith can generate infinite Light, they are limited by 'throughput', i.e. they generate finite amount per second, and it tires them out.

 

12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 Anything short of handwavy shenanigans is going to put Roshar at a disadvantage and I personally grow tired of the answer "because bondsmith said so". 

Not sure what is 'handwavy' about using pre-established facets of the world? Connection and issues it presents to cognitive entities was established in Secret History, and at the same time we saw there are workarounds, as Ire had Dor there. From the very first Stormlight book we also knew that the answer to these issues exists (Vasher on Roshar), and also that people on Roshar are actively researching it (Gavilar and experiments with moving Voidspren from Braize).

Both the problem and its solution have been heavily foreshadowed, so I don't see how it is handwavy at all.

Stormlight is one of the prime pillars of Cosmere, one that is more 'magic' heavy than Scadrial. So presence of few supremely powerful individuals should not be surprising.
 

Edited May 7 by therunner

[alder24]

18 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

There are a lot of posts asking who would win, and it always comes down to a Scadrian and a Rosharan. It might be mistborn, twinborn, 3rd ideal radiant, full radiant, etc., but most people have one side they usually agree with, no matter the characteristics. I want to settle the debate once and for all. In general, who do you think would win?

This topic again

Where and when? Right now, as it is at the end of RoW/TLM, both Rosharans and Scadrians can't compete with each other on their home ground. Rosharans can't invite Scadrial as their spren and Radiants are bound to Roshar, unable to leave, their regular troops stand no chance against modern weaponry, while Scadrians can use Metalborns on Roshar, but they also can't leave Scadrial as they have no infrastructure in CR, nor their Metalborns and modern army can reasonably compete against Radiants on Roshar. Right now there is simply no competition at all. 

However in the future of Cosmere things change, Emberdark spoilers:

Spoiler

A full scale war would end up in a mutually assured destruction. Both sides would lose.

In TSM we see Scadrian tech being distributed among common people, weight devices, steelpush watches and possibly many other things, future development of Malwish medallions and primer cubes. They seem to be easily accessible, granting Metalborn powers to everywhere. Even Nomad knew Scadrians could have overwhelmed him with their technology despite having a Shardblade and being a Dawnsliver. They weren't scared of Nomad being a Radiant, they were scared of him being the one that the Night Brigade was looking for. They are dangerous.

Scadrian spaceships and space stations are scattered everywhere across Cosmere, they provide transportation services and in times of war allow the use of orbital bombardment to level their enemies. They have powerful Harmonium-Trellium, comparable in scale to modern thermonuclear weapons, which most definitely evolve in the future into more powerful bombs, I’m 100% sure they adopt anti-investiture weapons after they become more Cosmere aware. And we can't forget about their numerous colonies and vast resources they are getting from those places. 

Rosharans are dangerous too. Radiants wield huge power that level the fighting plane, their Shardplates allow them to resist a lot and fabrial tech, while not that common across Cosmere as Scadrian tech, grant them many tools and allow them to construct spaceships. Radiants and Shardbearers can leave Roshar, they can access dangerous amounts of Stormlight, they are valuable mercenaries. They have antigrav technology (probably fabrials) that allow them to also create their own spaceships, just like Scadrians they have numerous planets colonized.

In a full scale war against those two there would be no winners. They would obliterate each other until nothing but dust is left on both Roshar and Scadrial and even their fancy tech and magic won't protect them. Each of them possesses weapons capable of destroying civilization right now, in the future they will make them even better. I think that's the reason they are scrambling to capture as many colonies as they can, they each want to get an edge over the other, they try to avoid an open conflict as they know it will be disastrous. They are focusing on proxy wars instead. We don't know if that's how the futuristic political scene of Cosmere is like, but I feel it would look like the Cold War for the same reasons. Once they both have nukes and anti-investiture, they would not want to risk an open war because of a mutually assured destruction.

But there is no "draw" option on the poll for me to vote for so I won't vote.

[UltimateArchivist]

I belive we continue to gloss over the obvious effects of a Fullborn. We've only seen one; he lived for a thousand years and was unkillable by everyone except for one drawing on an entire Shard's power. There are no more Fullborns, but if they made one Band of Mourning, they can make more. (Especially if Harmony is heading towards Discord and going to allow all sorts of wacky things to happen.)

I'm sorry, but with as powerful as Fullborns are from their infinite compounding, I doubt anything short of a Harmonium-Trellium Reduction Reaction will kill them. It is entirely feasible in my mind that as long as there are enough Bands of Mourning, the Scadrians could take even Urithiru. The Scadrians have the advantage in technology, numbers, (There are dozens of Mistings for each Knight Radiant, although who knows how this will change in the future. Everyone knows Shardbearers can't hold ground) and Sazed. Sazed and his two Shards could be their biggest advantage. We just don't know how Discord is going to work.

Just my take. Nothing more.

The Ultimate Archivist.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, UltimateArchivist said:

I belive we continue to gloss over the obvious effects of a Fullborn. We've only seen one; he lived for a thousand years and was unkillable by everyone except for one drawing on an entire Shard's power.

Agreed. A fullborn is the most OP individual in the cosmere. In a one on one / hand to hand situation, the fullborn wins every time in my opinion. 

 

However, Alder has a good point. Stormlight Spoilers:

Spoiler

What is a fullborn to planet wide destruction like what happened to Ashyn? What is a 5th oath Radiant to a Harmonium-Trellium bomb that vaporizes matter for miles around? The individual scale is not really going to matter in this conflict. Its going to matter much more on the cultures resources and influence.

 

[Trusk'our]

I'm not going to vote at this time, because honestly, it depends. On a lot.

Where are they fighting?

Are all countries on each planet unified?

Does Roshar have Fused/Odium's forces and powers, or just the Radiant coalition?

Does Scadrial have broad knowledge of Hemalurgy, or is it hidden away?

What stage of technology does each have? What does one know that the other doesn't?

Does Scadrial have access to BoM level power, or something more like their current medallion state?

Does Roshar have Herald-level fighters?

Is Sazed directly aiding Scadrial? Is he more compatible with his Intents in this future scenario? Is Marsh or Kelsier helping?

Does Roshar have Honor restored, or Odium or Cultivation directing the forces?

Far too many unknown variables for my taste.

[QuantumAce]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:01 AM, UltimateArchivist said:

I belive we continue to gloss over the obvious effects of a Fullborn. We've only seen one; he lived for a thousand years and was unkillable by everyone except for one drawing on an entire Shard's power. There are no more Fullborns, but if they made one Band of Mourning, they can make more. (Especially if Harmony is heading towards Discord and going to allow all sorts of wacky things to happen.)

While technically true, the circumstances required to create them could be specific enough as to make it virtually impossible. As you note, the dynamic of Sazed holding multiple shards is evolving. What if the bands were created in a window that only occurred 10-15 years after ascending? Trying to re-create a specific set of circumstances could be like trying to un-bake a cake. You can do all sorts of fun and wacky things with that cake, but you will never be able to re-create the exact state it was in 2 minutes before the center was completely set. While it is possible another vessel could come along and take up Ruin and Preservation and try to control them the exact same way Sazed did, its unlikely. 

Fullborns are not coming back unless Sanderson has a very compelling reason, and I feel 100% confident in saying not without significant limitations. It doesnt hurt to mention them as a possibility, but I wouldnt count on them as a significant factor. 

[Rune]

Sanderson did a good job in giving different advantages to different planets. I think everyone can agree that it is nigh-impossible to take Roshar whereas the Scadrians have a very portable magic system. They lend themselves to different tactics that we already get hints of:

Spoiler

An entire ship of Scadrians is used to deal with the First of the Sun while a single Skybreaker is dispatched to perform the same function.

Roshar is the planet of high quality, less maneuverability, and an amazing home defense. Scadrial has relatively easy-to-dispatch and disperse magics (though fabriels may counter this depending on their efficiency/portability).

Spoiler

Roshar has the advantage of anti-investiture and Scadrial has magic nukes.

Overall it seems to be a well planned stalemate by Sanderson. I’m team Roshar but anything can happen.