"I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted."

[Merik]

How did Kwaan know to write in metal?

"I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted."

This is how Kwaan begins his inscription in Well of Ascension. But we don't know how Kwaan came to realize that it is safe to write in metal.

Kwaan figured out that something is changing the written history: "The alterations are slight. Clever, even. A word here, a slight twist there. But the words on the pages are different from the ones in my memory. The other Worldbringers scoff at me, for they have their metalminds to prove to them that the books and prophecies have not changed."
From the changes he derived that this something want Alendi to set free the power at the Well of Ascension instead of the original, more vague task of the Hero of Ages to do something at the Well of Ascension. And then Kwaan jumps to the conclusion that this something is trapped in the Well of Ascenion

But after the initial "anything not set in metal cannot be trusted", he never again mentions how he knows this. Kwaan has no knowledge that Shards see metal as glowing objects and therefore can't read whats written on metal. Kwaan only knows that metalminds aren't safe and that written words in books aren't safe.

So why would he be throughly convinced of the fact that combining these methods by using written words on metal would be safe from changes?

[therunner]

Funny thing, Brandon actually RAFO'ed this question

Quote

Questioner

I've been going back over Mistborn recently, and one thing really stuck out. "I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted."  I get how Kwaan could've figured out that Ruin was messing around with records, but how could he possibly have known metal was immune?

Brandon Sanderson

That's not as hard to figure out as you think it might be. *laughter* I'm going to RAFO that. Partially because it'll dig into that story that I just don't want to canonize right now. I don't think I'm going to write it. People ask me if I'm going to write it, and I really don't think I'm going to. But some of the elements of that are important to things that are coming up, so I don't know. I'm going to RAFO that for now. It's not as hard to figure out as you would think.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

But apparently it is not hard to figure out, so we might try.
Cosmere spoilers
 

Spoiler

Based on these WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131/#e3968) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1253), pre-Ascension Scadrial was realmatically aware, especially Terris people.
Since Metal behaves oddly in general, and they might have some knowledge of Worldhoppers, they could have figured out that metal in general serves as partial conduit to SR, which causes it to 'glow'.
Those would be my 2 cents.

 

[Merik]

Ohh, very nice!

i've been looking around at coppermind and done some general google searches, but couldn't find anything related to this. I even thought that I had noticed something that slipped through everyone else's mind.
But it's good to know that Sanderson doesn't disappoint us there.

Thank you!

[Treamayne]

51 minutes ago, therunner said:

pre-Ascension Scadrial was realmatically aware

As referenced, Kwaan was realmatically aware, since we learn in the TFE Ch 19 Epigraph that he was researching the Cognitive Realm aspect of trees:

Spoiler

 In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom—nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library—I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think.

That he should be the one who finally discovered the great Hero of Terris prophecy is a matter that would cause me to laugh, had events turned out just a little differently.

But also remember that the original Worldbringers, the First Generation and Rashek also already knew of the "metal can't be seen" aspect of realmatics. HoA Ch 71:

Spoiler

Atium. Thousands upon thousands of beads of it. Sazed gasped. “The Lord Ruler’s atium stockpile . . . It was here all along.”

“Most of that atium never left the Pits of Hathsin,” Haddek said. “There were obligators on staff at all times—but never Inquisitors, for the Father knew that they could be corrupted. The obligators broke the geodes in secret, inside of a metal room constructed for the purpose, then took out the atium. The noble family then transported the empty geodes to Luthadel, never knowing that they didn’t have any atium in their possession at all. What atium the Lord Ruler did get, and distribute, to the nobility was brought in by the obligators. They disguised the atium as Ministry funds and hid the beads in piles of coins so that Ruin wouldn’t see them as they were transported in convoys full of new acolytes to Luthadel.”

Sazed stood, dumbstruck. Here . . . all along. Just a short distance from the very caves where Kelsier raised his army. A short journey from Luthadel, completely unprotected all these years.

Yet hidden so well.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity

[Mistchemist16]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But also remember that the original Worldbringers, the First Generation and Rashek also already knew of the "metal can't be seen" aspect of realmatics. HoA Ch 71:

  Reveal hidden contents

Atium. Thousands upon thousands of beads of it. Sazed gasped. “The Lord Ruler’s atium stockpile . . . It was here all along.”

“Most of that atium never left the Pits of Hathsin,” Haddek said. “There were obligators on staff at all times—but never Inquisitors, for the Father knew that they could be corrupted. The obligators broke the geodes in secret, inside of a metal room constructed for the purpose, then took out the atium. The noble family then transported the empty geodes to Luthadel, never knowing that they didn’t have any atium in their possession at all. What atium the Lord Ruler did get, and distribute, to the nobility was brought in by the obligators. They disguised the atium as Ministry funds and hid the beads in piles of coins so that Ruin wouldn’t see them as they were transported in convoys full of new acolytes to Luthadel.”

Sazed stood, dumbstruck. Here . . . all along. Just a short distance from the very caves where Kelsier raised his army. A short journey from Luthadel, completely unprotected all these years.

Yet hidden so well.

 

The metal room doesn’t prove the Worldbringers knew metal was safe. Rashek built that and he most likely gained that knowledge from the Well. But the reference to Cognitive aspects does suggest more Realmantic knowledge

I also think we should ask another questions: how much of the Spiritual and Temporal metals did classical Scadrial have? We can assume they didn’t crack the making of aluminum or Rashek would’ve had tons of it + duralumin. But Kwaan still could’ve experimented with these metals or  even the chromium/nicrosil pair. Maybe those would help figure out how metal works.

Tyran Amiros

How technologically advanced was the society before the Final Empire? You reference gunpowder, and certainly the current day seems to have technologies like canning and clocks, so how much did Rashek destroy?

Brandon Sanderson

They had steam technology, and were just about to hit the railroad era. Something near early 1800s in our world.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)  

Edited April 7, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Treamayne]

30 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

The metal room doesn’t prove the Worldbringers knew metal was safe. Rashek built that and he most likely gained that knowledge from the Well. But the reference to Cognitive aspects does suggest more Realmantic knowledge

I wasn't citing the existence of the metal room, I was citing that the First Generation knew *why* a metal room was needed and *why* the Atium nuggets had to be hidden in the ministry funds chest.

Maybe I'm projecting, but if you read each scene with Sazed questioning the FG - I get teh feeling that if they knew about this only because Rashek tapped the well; then they would have said "Father told us X, Y and Z." Instead they state everything as if it was fundamental to the Pre-Ascension Terris religion. They didn;t even try to explain why, as if it was understood that a religious scholar like Sazed would already know and understand these "fundamentals."

[cometaryorbit]

I think probably some early Terris person or people got into the Cognitive Realm through one of the Perpendicularities. Maybe a previous user of the Well of Ascension 1000 or 2000 years before Kwaan/Alendi/Rashek's era, maybe just someone who stepped into one of the Perpendicularities and entered the Cognitive.

From the Cognitive they could see the glow of metal. They also could talk to Preservation there, which would explain how the Terris Prophecies came from Preservation even though Preservation can't talk to people.

I think that's why the Terris knew Realmatic stuff. They were living near both Perpendicularities after all...

(Still doesn't explain how Preservation gave Feruchemy to the Terris in the first place, but...)

Edited April 17, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Still doesn't explain how Preservation gave Feruchemy to the Terris in the first place, but...)

It's likely that neither Shard "gave" feruchemy to Scadrial. WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Questioner

From what I understand, Ruin and Preservation create the world together, and they created humanity as copies of the original humankind. So how did they give Allomancy to Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So the magic systems are kind of built into the setting and the world. And there are certain natural pathways that exist, in the same way there are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. They weren't 100% created by the Shards, but they also do have the Shards' influence on them.

 

Quote

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? 

Brandon Sanderson

 I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. 

Allomancy (via Lerasium) seems to be the oddball. I know that there's at least one better WoB I'm still trying to find again, but it seems like most invested arts arise from the interaction of the Shard's intent/investiture and the world/region/peoples. The Shard doesn't necessarily "make" the invested art and "give it" (though they can - e. g. Endowment and Returned) as much as X+Y+Z = <invested art> where the components are teh shard, the world and the people, and they all influence how the Invested art manifest. 

 

[Mistchemist16]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Still doesn't explain how Preservation gave Feruchemy to the Terris in the first place, but...)

There would’ve been others who took the Well of Ascension before Rashek. Maybe one of them used Shard knowledge and lerasium experiments to grant Feruchemy (likely with Atium) . This would also explain why it’s only the Terris who have it. 

 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

After reading Secret History, I’m convinced Kwaan’s knowledge that Shards can’t read metal comes from Preservation Himself, as part of the plot to put Rashek into position to be that cycle’s Ascendant. 

We know Kwaan has some knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, because he was researching if trees could think. However, there’s nothing in-text or WoB that suggest there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers, much less Kwaan himself. We don’t even know any history about the Pits of Hathsin and worldhopping to Scadrial, apart from our knowledge on Preservation’s initial creation of the Pits and its history during the Final Empire.

I think Preservation gave Kwaan visions of the Cognitive Realm, of the fact metal glows to Shards and thus can’t be altered by Ruin (who can’t read the thoughts that Pres could use as a loophole). If not this, I think Preservation created Kwaan’s photographic memory for the aforementioned purpose of eventually nudging Rashek into position. Kwaan then just kept paying attention to his metal tablets, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word.

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

After reading Secret History, I’m convinced Kwaan’s knowledge that Shards can’t read metal comes from Preservation Himself, as part of the plot to put Rashek into position to be that cycle’s Ascendant. 

We know Kwaan has some knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, because he was researching if trees could think. However, there’s nothing in-text or WoB that suggest there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers, much less Kwaan himself. We don’t even know any history about the Pits of Hathsin and worldhopping to Scadrial, apart from our knowledge on Preservation’s initial creation of the Pits and its history during the Final Empire.

I think Preservation gave Kwaan visions of the Cognitive Realm, of the fact metal glows to Shards and thus can’t be altered by Ruin (who can’t read the thoughts that Pres could use as a loophole). If not this, I think Preservation created Kwaan’s photographic memory for the aforementioned purpose of eventually nudging Rashek into position. Kwaan then just kept paying attention to his metal tablets, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word.

I don't think he needed Preservation for that. Realmatic Theory was a part of ancient Terris religion. Kwaan was able to travel to CR and that alone is enough to realize how metal looks for an entity watching it from outside of PR. It glows. If it glows in CR it means that it can't be read. Even Kelsier in SH immediately realized that metal and souls are the same thing. This is simple enough for Kwaan to reach that conclusion as well, especially if he knew about both Preservation and Ruin and their true nature, just like the First Generation of Kandra knew that (admittedly some of that might have come from Rashek after Ascension, but I think it's clear that ancient Terris was still aware of Ruin). 

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Moreover Worldsingers and Worldbringers are connected and have the same origin, Worldsingers were founded by Hoid so it's very likely that Worldbringers have also connections beyond Scadrial and might be aware of Worldhopping. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Worldbringers and Worldsingers, similar mission?

Brandon Sanderson

The similarity of the names is intentional.

Questioner

Similar origin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Did Hoid start them?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO. That's a RAFO, but definitely they have a similar origin.

Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015)

 

 

Spoiler

Nesh

So some of us happened across a line in [Mistborn: The Final Empire] that gave us pause. It's in the chapter 19 epigraph:

"Not so Kwaan. In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom - nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library--I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think."

This sounded to us like Kwaan the Terrisman might have been looking into or might have known something about Realmatics, like for instance knowing of the Realms and that things have aspects in all three. Is this the case? If so, was such knowledge common among his people or Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Realmatic theory was part of the ancient Terris religion.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012)

 

[JustQuestin2004]

2 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I’m convinced Kwaan’s knowledge that Shards can’t read metal comes from Preservation Himself, as part of the plot to put Rashek into position to be that cycle’s Ascendant. 

Cycles, when you think about it Mistborn has some interesting parallels with Dark Souls. A constant cycle to hold back the dark, power needing to coalesce in one place to achieve this delayal, the 'good' god sacrificing himself to ensure the world continued. The only thing we're missing is a few cryptic serpents trying to manipulate things and we're set.

Edit: Heck, we even have that one guy who shows up everywhere, even entirely different worlds!

On 4/18/2023 at 7:31 AM, Treamayne said:

It's likely that neither Shard "gave" feruchemy to Scadrial. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Allomancy (via Lerasium) seems to be the oddball. I know that there's at least one better WoB I'm still trying to find again, but it seems like most invested arts arise from the interaction of the Shard's intent/investiture and the world/region/peoples. The Shard doesn't necessarily "make" the invested art and "give it" (though they can - e. g. Endowment and Returned) as much as X+Y+Z = <invested art> where the components are teh shard, the world and the people, and they all influence how the Invested art manifest. 

 

I can't agree with that personally, I don't think the Terris had access to naturally occurring Full Feruchemists, the Southern Scadrians didn't have them only Ferrings, the Full Feruchemists originated from just the Terris. Like how Mistborn originated from the ancient kings that burned Lerasium. That cannot be explained as a coincidental 'Scadrian Magic Physics thing', because then why were Mistborn non-existent before Lerasium? The pieces fit a different picture there, an intentionally designed one. 

Edited April 16 by JustQuestin2004

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I don't think the Terris had access to naturally occurring Full Feruchemists

I can agree with that - though my response that you quoted was not about Full Feruchemists - it was about "why feruchemy, an art that is balanced between Ruin and Preservation (you Ruin yourself to Preserve an attribute, afterall), wasn't "given/created" by Preservation alone."  So, if Feruchemy is the natural pathway of investiture for a World created by Ruin and Preservation together, and that pathway is genetic (due to the same) then Ferrings would be the naturally occuring Manifestation of Investiture. 

My current theory (headcanon), pending more information, is that the Hero 1024 years before Alendi used the power of the Well to "upgrade" Terris from Ferrings to Full Feruchemists (which still has holes, even though we know Rashek made himself Mistborn that way does not mean another hero could have done the same with Feruchemy or to other people, but may have been possible by tweaking Teris sDNA rather than a direct Investing of power). The natural Terris insularity would reinforce that trait and prevent it from spreading across the northern continent. And we all know what happens next. 

Edited April 16 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[+robardin]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:46 PM, Mistchemist16 said:

There would’ve been others who took the Well of Ascension before Rashek. Maybe one of them used Shard knowledge and lerasium experiments to grant Feruchemy (likely with Atium) . This would also explain why it’s only the Terris who have it. 

There is no evidence or mention of this in-world or via WoBs, though.

The only reference to anybody using the power of the Well before Rashek is to deny any such person ever existed, when Haddek of the First Generation of kandra said to Sazed, "Rashek saw the future. He held the power of Preservation and wielded it. He is the sole man ever to have done so! Even this woman of whom the Keeper speaks did not use the power. Only Rashek! The Father."

Of course a lot of knowledge can be lost over 1,024 years, especially with Ruin being "close to the surface" and touching Scadrial to manipulate things towards the endd. Haddek (like Rashek) was born into the end of the previous era of the Well's gathering power, when "the Deepness" had become a problem threatening mass starvation, moving Alendi to try to end it by fulfilling what he thought was the role of The Hero of Ages.

So for all we know, maybe Feruchemy exists because an earlier Terris person from 1,024 years before Haddek's time had taken up the power, and used it to grant a subset of the Terris people a new Metalborn power (similar to Rashek, a favored inner circle?).

And then somehow, whether by act of Ruin or whatever else, this was forgotten by the Terris people themselves, even the self-designated Worldbringers who had this power? (Never mind taking on the humble roles of being mountain packmen!) 

But we do NOT know this. At the same time, I don't think we have any WoBs definitively stating that the power at the Well was only ever taken up twice, by Rashek (wielded), and then by Vin (released). But then, why would he bother saying that, when the books themselves do? Albeit in the form of in-world (and hence unreliable) knowledge.

"There's always another secret", and maybe this is one of them!

EDIT: oh, there is one other clue. When Sazed ascends and fixes Scadrial's position in the solar system, restores the arrangement of the world's continents, and undoes the changes to the flora/fauna of the world to survive in a world of ash, and also when Kelsier and Vin take up Preservation briefly, they also see "all the actions previously done with the power" - Rashek frustrated at moving the planet too close, then too far from the sun, and settling on ash-filled skies to balance things out.

None of those Ascendants were described as seeing anything done with the power by a Scadrian mortal wielding the power of the Well prior to Rashek. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, just that it'd be "off-screen" so far and unrevealed to us readers.

Edited April 16 by robardin

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

There is no evidence or mention of this in-world or via WoBs, though.

There was a WoB that said there were others before Rashek, but not many, however I never can find it. I'm 100% sure of it, I've posted it before, I just can't find it. 

[Argenti]

33 minutes ago, robardin said:

There is no evidence or mention of this in-world or via WoBs, though.

The only reference to anybody using the power of the Well before Rashek is to deny any such person ever existed, when Haddek of the First Generation of kandra said to Sazed, "Rashek saw the future. He held the power of Preservation and wielded it. He is the sole man ever to have done so! Even this woman of whom the Keeper speaks did not use the power. Only Rashek! The Father."

Of course a lot of knowledge can be lost over 1,024 years, especially with Ruin being "close to the surface" and touching Scadrial to manipulate things towards the endd. Haddek (like Rashek) was born into the end of the previous era of the Well's gathering power, when "the Deepness" had become a problem threatening mass starvation, moving Alendi to try to end it by fulfilling what he thought was the role of The Hero of Ages.

So for all we know, maybe Feruchemy exists because an earlier Terris person from 1,024 years before Haddek's time had taken up the power, and used it to grant a subset of the Terris people a new Metalborn power (similar to Rashek, a favored inner circle?).

And then somehow, whether by act of Ruin or whatever else, this was forgotten by the Terris people themselves, even the self-designated Worldbringers who had this power? (Never mind taking on the humble roles of being mountain packmen!) 

But we do NOT know this. At the same time, I don't think we have any WoBs definitively stating that the power at the Well was only ever taken up twice, by Rashek (wielded), and then by Vin (released). But then, why would he bother saying that, when the books themselves do? Albeit in the form of in-world (and hence unreliable) knowledge.

"There's always another secret", and maybe this is one of them!

EDIT: oh, there is one other clue. When Sazed ascends and fixes Scadrial's position in the solar system, restores the arrangement of the world's continents, and undoes the changes to the flora/fauna of the world to survive in a world of ash, and also when Kelsier and Vin take up Preservation briefly, they also see "all the actions previously done with the power" - Rashek frustrated at moving the planet too close, then too far from the sun, and settling on ash-filled skies to balance things out.

None of those Ascendants were described as seeing anything done with the power by a Scadrian mortal wielding the power of the Well prior to Rashek. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, just that it'd be "off-screen" so far and unrevealed to us readers.

Someone has been at the Well before, there were likely 16 beads, 8 of which were taken by Rashek, leaving at least 2 behind. That leaves 6 unaccounted for unless I missed something. 

[Treamayne]

47 minutes ago, robardin said:

But we do NOT know this. At the same time, I don't think we have any WoBs definitively stating that the power at the Well was only ever taken up twice, by Rashek (wielded), and then by Vin (released). But then, why would he bother saying that, when the books themselves do? Albeit in the form of in-world (and hence unreliable) knowledge.

"There's always another secret", and maybe this is one of them!

As far as I can tell, this is the closest we come in WoB Form:

Spoiler

Quote

Chaos

When did Preservation decide to imprison Ruin in the Well? No need to be specific, I should think. A simple "Near Alendi's time" or "Way before Alendi's time" would suffice, or whichever time of reference you want to use.

Brandon Sanderson

Way before Alendi's time. Hence the need for the prophecies. But Ruin managed to corrupt them.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Quote

Kaimipono

What was Vin supposed to do at the end of Well of Ascension? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?

Brandon Sanderson

What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophecies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things.

What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

I think the use of "Avatar" here may be important, but also the part about "renewing Ruin's Prison" which is something Rashek did not do with the power - and likely why Ruin had an increase ability to manipulate people and events during TLR's reign.

 

47 minutes ago, robardin said:

None of those Ascendants were described as seeing anything done with the power by a Scadrian mortal wielding the power of the Well prior to Rashek. That doesn't mean there wasn't one, just that it'd be "off-screen" so far and unrevealed to us readers.

True, but also note (M:SH P6-Epilogue):

Spoiler

“It’s a big, big place out there, kid,” Kelsier said. “Bigger than I ever knew. Ignorance almost lost us everything. I’m not going to let that happen again.” He tapped at Spook’s ear. “While dead, I had an opportunity. My mind expanded, and I learned some things. My focus wasn’t on these spikes; I think I could have worked it all out, if it had been. I still learned enough to be dangerous, and the two of us are going to figure the rest out.” WoB:

Quote

Questioner

So I'm wondering, how omniscient are the Vessels?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a difficult question to answer because they don't know everything, but they could theoretically. And so, the actual Vessel needs to apply the power and learn things.[Stormlight Archive Comments removed as irrelevant - see link for full text]

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

So, yes nobody before Alendi was mentioned in-text. However, we also know that Shard's "intelluctus" (to use a Dresden Files term) is much like it is in that series. . . you only "know" something if you think about knowing it (you need to internally ask the question; e. g. Sazed knew how Rashek used the power because in taking up the power he thought about what went wrong last time; but we never see Saze, Kell or Vin "think" about the period before Alendi or how many times the Well had filled).

While it is in no way supported by Canon evidence, my personal belief is that the Well had to have filled, and been accessed, at least three times:

1. Because the Shattering was a long time ago, and it's implied that Scadrial was created shortly after the Shattering 
2. The Well would have needed at least the first 1024 yr span to fill and trigger Alendi/Rashek's story
3. But, the first filling of the Well would likely have happened without Ruin's corruption of the prophesy 
   • Which is how Ruin realized he needed to alter the prophesy to manipulate his own release
   • Afterall, 1024 years before Rashek, Terris Religion would have only been one of many from one Culture and Nation amongst many
4. Rashek's and Alendi's Story
5. Vin's Story

Edited April 16 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Someone has been at the Well before, there were likely 16 beads, 8 of which were taken by Rashek, leaving at least 2 behind. That leaves 6 unaccounted for unless I missed something. 

The beads were not at the Well to begin with, nor were they created by Rashek with the power of the Well with the intention of distributing them.

This is based on a WoB that Rashek had to go  "get" them, and then left the reserve beads he kept in reserve in the safest, most secret place he could construct.

Quote

Questioner

Did the Lord Ruler create the lerasium that he gave to the ten foreign kings? Or where they put there by Leras--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question… No one's asked me that before, I don't believe. Did the Lord Ruler create the lerasium that he gave-- No, he found the lerasium. It was existent before his Ascension.

Questioner

Can I ask if it was placed there intentionally by Leras or did it sort of grow similar to how atium--

Brandon Sanderson

The Lord Ruler-- It was not placed for him, he had to-- he had to get it.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

He's been cagey about the presumption that there should, or must, have been 16 beads of lerasium originally, leaving several unaccounted for (ten for "foreign kings", two at the Well, that's twelve, where's the other four?) RAFO, no doubt!

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There was a WoB that said there were others before Rashek, but not many, however I never can find it. I'm 100% sure of it, I've posted it before, I just can't find it. 

I have looked for this again as well (get it? as Well? ... never mind), if you find something I'd like to see it

[Argenti]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

The beads were not at the Well to begin with, nor were they created by Rashek with the power of the Well with the intention of distributing them.

This is based on a WoB that Rashek had to go  "get" them, and then left the reserve beads he kept in reserve in the safest, most secret place he could construct.

He's been cagey about the presumption that there should, or must, have been 16 beads of lerasium originally, leaving several unaccounted for (ten for "foreign kings", two at the Well, that's twelve, where's the other four?) RAFO, no doubt!

I have looked for this again as well (get it? as Well? ... never mind), if you find something I'd like to see it

I also remember there being 10 kings, but all the sources I've found say there were 8, and Rashek, of course.
 

Quote

The beads of metal found at the Well—beads that made men into Mistborn—were the reason why Allomancers used to be more powerful. Those first Mistborn were as Elend Venture became—possessing a primal power, which was then passed down through the lines of the nobility, weakening a bit with each generation.
The Lord Ruler was one of these ancient Allomancers, his power pure and unadulterated by time and breeding. That is part of why he was so mighty compared to other Mistborn—though, admittedly, his ability to mix Feruchemy and Allomancy was what produced many of his most spectacular abilities. Still, it is interesting to me that one of his "divine" powers—his essential Allomantic strength—was something every one of the original nine Allomancers possessed.

 

It's possible Leras made 10, but thats not his number.

[+robardin]

In response to this cite,

Quote

Chaos

When did Preservation decide to imprison Ruin in the Well? No need to be specific, I should think. A simple "Near Alendi's time" or "Way before Alendi's time" would suffice, or whichever time of reference you want to use.

Brandon Sanderson

Way before Alendi's time. Hence the need for the prophecies. But Ruin managed to corrupt them.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

The thing is, does 1,024 years count as "way before" Alendi's time, whose time after all is the same as Rashek's and Haddek's time (the era of "The Deepness" as the Well neared filling up)?

Since clearly that time, to Sazed, Vin, and Kelsier, is indeed "way before" their own time.

But yeah, on the Cosmere timeline, it's been implied or suggested that Ruin and Preservation got together to do their little construction project partnership shortly after the Shattering, and that had to have been more than 2,500 years or so earlier than the Wax and Wayne Era of Scadrial, which in turn we know is after SA5 takes place.

So either the Well had filled and been used at least once if not multiple times before Rashek, or Leras only sprang his little Ati Trap - what some might call a dishonorable backstab - after a few millenia (not immediately upon finishing building the world).

The latter is not impossible or unreasonable. Ruin wouldn't want to destroy Scadrial until there was something worth "ruining", for humans to build societies and whatnot. It's only "ruining" if it'd be something missed!

But I think this is the WoB addressing the question of whether or not there were earlier "Heroes of Ages" who Did The Right Thing before Ruin managed to corrupt the Terris religion's words enough:

Quote

Kaimipono

What was Vin supposed to do at the end of Well of Ascension? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?

Brandon Sanderson

What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophecies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things.

What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

This WoB doesn't actually say that there WERE such "avatars" before Rashek who "did it right", just that that was the intended model.

And of course, per Sazed's final epiphany, Leras had foreseen an even longer game where "The" Hero of Ages, not just a millennial avatar, would finally put the threat of Ruin to Scadrial's existence to rest forever.

(...maybe?)

Edited April 16 by robardin

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

As far as I can tell, this is the closest we come in WoB Form:

Those aren't the WoB I'm looking for.

9 minutes ago, robardin said:

I have looked for this again as well (get it? as Well? ... never mind), if you find something I'd like to see it

Heh, nice one. I still can't find it. It happened before as well, when was the last time I posted this WoB, I was looking for it for ages, but I'm sure it's there. I just need to find the most important Words the search engine can look for!

[+robardin]

11 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I also remember there being 10 kings, but all the sources I've found say there were 8, and Rashek, of course.

It's possible Leras made 10, but thats not his number.

I agree, ten is not "Leras' number". And I also think the text is inconsistent and maybe in need of some kind of retcon in terms of the number of "original Allomancers" and "foreign kings".

The text mentioned at one point there were "nine original Allomancers" in Ministry doctrine, which number you might think included Rashek. But you could also justify that statement excluding The Lord Ruler from that reckoning and meaning "nine mortal Allomancers", because yanno, TLR is God, yeah?.

However, it's also mentioned that there are TEN "great" noble houses in The Final Empire, from which all other lesser houses have branched off from. And that TLR views them as the children of his original circle of friends/allies, kings who supported his reign from the get-go.

So unless TLR was a massive jerk as to freeze out one of the ten original "foreign kings who supported him" from an Allomancy upgrade while he sat on a couple of spare beads in his basement, requiring them to intermarry to inject Allomancy into their house, I think that is basically an error that should be fixed.

There surely were TEN "foreign kings" who founded the TEN great houses, each given a lerasium bead over 1,000 years ago, thus founding the noble bloodlines for Allomancy.

[Argenti]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

I agree, ten is not "Leras' number". And I also think the text is inconsistent and maybe in need of some kind of retcon in terms of the number of "original Allomancers" and "foreign kings".

The text mentioned at one point there were "nine original Allomancers" in Ministry doctrine, which number you might think included Rashek. But you could also justify that statement excluding The Lord Ruler from that reckoning and meaning "nine mortal Allomancers", because yanno, TLR is God, yeah?.

However, it's also mentioned that there are TEN "great" noble houses in The Final Empire, from which all other lesser houses have branched off from. And that TLR views them as the children of his original circle of friends/allies, kings who supported his reign from the get-go.

So unless TLR was a massive jerk as to freeze out one of the ten original "foreign kings who supported him" from an Allomancy upgrade while he sat on a couple of spare beads in his basement, requiring them to intermarry to inject Allomancy into their house, I think that is basically an error that should be fixed.

There surely were TEN "foreign kings" who founded the TEN great houses, each given a lerasium bead over 1,000 years ago, thus founding the noble bloodlines for Allomancy.

I mean, two of the houses could have split; noble houses do that sometimes.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Argenti said:

I mean, two of the houses could have split; noble houses do that sometimes.

Or perhaps the tenth noble house was founded by one of Rashek's children, because (which blew my mind) there's a WoB that Rashek did indeed father some after becoming The Lord Ruler. But you'd think that house (and the other houses) would remember that house as being special.

But I see your point, there's no reason to assume the "nine original Allomancers", even if referring to mortal, non-Rashek ones, are the founding basis for all the ten last-stage FE "Great Houses" a thousand years later. The first explanation of that term in TFE reads:

Quote

Interspersed throughout the city were a dozen or so monolithic keeps. Intricate, with rows of spearlike spires or deep archways, these were the homes of the high nobility. In fact, they were the mark of a high noble family: Any family who could afford to build a keep and maintain a high-profile presence in Luthadel was considered to be a Great House. 

So there could well have been just nine, or indeed eight, original lerasium-eaters who founded noble houses that branched/split over time, settling into the list of ten most prominent ones by Vin and Elend's time.

[Argenti]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Or perhaps the tenth noble house was founded by one of Rashek's children, because (which blew my mind) there's a WoB that Rashek did indeed father some after becoming The Lord Ruler. But you'd think that house (and the other houses) would remember that house as being special.

But I see your point, there's no reason to assume the "nine original Allomancers", even if referring to mortal, non-Rashek ones, are the founding basis for all the ten last-stage FE "Great Houses" a thousand years later. The first explanation of that term in TFE reads:

So there could well have been just nine, or indeed eight, original lerasium-eaters who founded noble houses that branched/split over time, settling into the list of ten most prominent ones by Vin and Elend's time.

I mean, it has been a thousand years, and that's a while for anything not written in metal to last. I bet according to steel ministry cannon, Rashek had no kids, but the cannon is wrong, with bastards and all that.