otb Why did this happen?

[Sovieticozasz]

Hello to everyone.I was just reading Oathbringer yesterday, and i had to stop reading after one chapter because nothing made sense to me anymore. I am talking about the ( i dont know if spoilers are in order since is an old book but i will spoiler tag the rest, be aware that it includes heavy spoilers of Oathbringer and previous books.) 

Spoiler

 

moment in the palace of Kholinar when the Parshmen, and the wall guards kill each other and Moash ends up killing Elokhar. It felt like something that happened just because Brandon wanted it to happen, not because it made sense, since in my opinon is completely inconsistent with anything we have been told of Kaladin so far.

To explain my point, first what happened is that Kaladin stops in the middle of a melee, realizing that it is a combat between two sides that are just people killing each other, not an "us versus them" as he points it out. He shouts for the fighting to stop, and when no one listes, because why would anyone would listen to another random shout in the middle of a fight, he just stands there, watching everyone get killed without doing anything, including Elokhar at the hands of Moash.

¿Why do i believe it does not make any sense at all?. Well throught the story, Kaladin is portrayed as a person of action, not of words, when Tien is enlisted, he does not argue,he volunteers to try and protect him. When he is in the army he does not argue for kids that remind him of tien to be sent back, he gets them in his unit and protects them. When he is a slave, he tries to escape, repeatedly. When he is a bridgeman, he gets in front of the charge and tries to get everyone back alive. When Adolin is being assaulted in the middle of a duel, he jumps in to help. The point is, Kaladin does not argue when something is happening , he acts, he does things.

His emotional state is pretty consistent in the books, with clear development. He starts as an idealistic youth that wants to be a soldier, then he grows out of it and decides to commit to being a surgeon. After Tien is enlisted and he is killed, Kaladin seeks refuge from that feeling in his unit, in protecting other people, people that are like Tien in particular, because even tho more jaded he is still an idealist that believes that "true soldiers are in the Shattered Plains". When he is branded a Slave, he gets darker, but he tries to escape, to help others escape he is still in the end, that boy. After becoming a bridgeman, he still tries, he does, but that breaks him, he touches rock bottom and is a depressed man, that has learned how cruel, though and disgusting the world  and the people in it can be, and he decides to end it all. Only the intervention of something incredible, a Spren that gives him a gift and asks him to try "just one last time" pushes him out of the brink, barely. After that he has his ups and downs but he is still an empathic, idealistic person battling depression. So, pretty good development for the character and pretty consistent overall.

Now if we come back to the moment in Oathbringer that makes me balk, Kaladin is watching something that he does not like, at all, happen. And he does... ¿nothing?, he does not turn Syl into a blunt weapon and try to subdue people? he does not try to incapacitate people unarmed? he does not even try to defend Elokhar, his ward, or the child in his arms (child for whom he got so angry minutes before that he killed a spren) he becomes a statue that just narrates the situation, he does not even intervene at all when moash confronts Elokhar and, literaly, kicks the child. ¿Why? the last time this exact situation happened, it got so bad because he did nothing that he ended up almost dying and uttering the first ideal just to attone and try and save Elokhar. 

I understand that the plot required those people to kill eachother and Elokhar to die, that is ok, but Kaladin should have tried to stop it, by any means necessary, and then fail, spectacularly. That would've been consisten and it would have reached the same end.It would also justify his instant shock and depression, he actually failed to protect people, again. As things stand he did not fail anyone, he never even tried.

 

So what do people think? i am reading too much in the character? anyone else found the situation forced?.

(I hope this is the correct place in the forums to post this things.)

[Trusk'our]

I think that his character's reaction made sense when all things are considered, but I totally agree with you that he should have done something. Especially about Moash.

But should have and would have aren't necessarily the same thing.

[S. Stormy]

Up until now, Kaladin has fought to protect people, and there's been someone he knows and loves well on one side, and people he can't relate to(or if he can, he doesn't know them personally) on the other side.

This time, he relates to:

The singers(Sah, Khen, Vai, he knows what it's like to be a runaway slave, living in fear daily of being caught)

The Wall Guard(similarity of their community to Bridge Four)

The Queen's Guard(same reason as the Wall Guard)

And he loves all of them. It's not just that he doesn't know what to do. His trauma is starting to catch up with him: his PTSD causes him to freeze up. I don't think it's indecision, I think it's trauma.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Shallan Stormblessed

[Sovieticozasz]

1 minute ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

Up until now, Kaladin has fought to protect people, and there's been someone he knows and loves well on one side, and people he can't relate to(or if he can, he doesn't know them personally) on the other side.

This time, he relates to:

The singers(Sah, Khen, Vai, he knows what it's like to be a runaway slave, living in fear daily of being caught)

The Wall Guard(similarity of their community to Bridge Four)

The Queen's Guard(same reason as the Wall Guard)

And he loves all of them. It's not just that he doesn't know what to do. His trauma is starting to catch up with him: his PTSD causes him to freeze up. It's not indecision, it's trauma.

But that is not how Kaladin has acted anytime something traumatic has happened to him, when he watched Tien die he got out of line, screamed at him and ran towards him. When his unit in Amaram's army got killed after, he got into the fight and killed the shardbearer, same with bridge four. And he did not froze, he chose not to act, the book is specific,

"Kaladin screamed, tears streaming from his eyes. He begged them to just stop, to listen"

He screamed, he told them to stop, he cried, he just did not act, he did not try to protect anyone, he just gave up. This is the only one time he does not act. I dont beleive is consistent with the character of Kaladin, he has lost many people before in as traumatic or more events, and realistically (at least in the real world, the first trauma event is the one more likely to freeze you) he should have tried to stop the fight, physicaly, as he has done in any other instance, not using lethal force, granted, but tried nonetheless even if it was futile, because that is what how the character of Kaladin was portrayed on the 3000 previous pages.

[alder24]

Spoilers from OB and RoW are allowed here.

It's not like that. All those actions Kaladin took before this moment were "us vs them". Protecting people close to him from those who just want to hurt them. Good vs evil. This mental image was already cracked during the battle on the Tower in WoK, when Kaladin found that he respects Listeners, and they are just like him in some ways. But in OB this changed dramatically, when he decided to help a group of Singers, whom he followed. They weren't evil Voidbringers that wanted to destroy the world, they were just lost people, former slaves who escaped like Kaladin, and want to be free, want to have family and protect those close to him, like this one little girl. They were just like Kaladin, he saw himself in them, he saw Teft, Rock, Lopen and other members of Bridge 4 in those Singers. He helped them, taught them, befriended them and created another "Bridge 4", a family, a group of people close to him. Those he cares about. During the Kholinar siege he did it again with the Wall Guard. That was another group of people close to him. But he constantly wants to save everyone that's close to him from harm. And when those two groups met in Kholinar palace, when his Parsh friends met his new Kholinar friends, his whole heart said he needed to protect both of them simultaneously. They all are his friends, people he cares about, his Tien. But how could he do this when they themself didn't see it this way? When they started to kill each other, slicing and stabbing? How can he protect them all, like he sworn in his Oaths, when now he needed to kill one his group of friends to save the other one? That was the only decision he could make, during active siege, active fight. There is no incapacitating people during a battle. Maces or hammers don't incapacitate people, they kill them, even more brutally than a sword (just smack a hammer into a watermelon and see what happens). In this very moment he had to follow the Oath he swerved, and he personally wanted to protect those he cares about, but he cares equally about both of them, so how can he kill one group of people he cares about to save the other group he cares about? He couldn't. He just wanted them to see it in the same way he saw it, that they are both the same, they are both his friends and they shouldn't fight with each other. They didn't see it. They all fought for different reasons than Kaladin.

Previously all the other times when he acted, he fought against people he didn't know, he didn't care about. This time he had to fight against his friends. Kaladin can’t do it. Who could do it and kill people he cares about?

The same goes for Moash. Kaladin never accepted the fact that Moash betrayed him. He still viewed him as part of Bridge 4, as his friend, someone who he can bring back to the family. That's why Kaladin could never do anything about him, as he still cares about him.

Battle shock, or combat stress reaction, is a real thing. People get overwhelmed during battle, can acquire serious long term mental problems, and can even freeze. During WW1, shell shock was a serious issue, common among soldiers. In some battles, like battle of the Somme, 40% of casualties were shell-shocked. Kaladin got overwhelmed by his own mind, unable to protect those he cared about.

When I was reading OB, and I read about Kaladin helping Singers, I knew he will seriously suffer from this soon. I fully expected him to freeze during some important battle, because he will face his new Parsh friends on the other side. And this was exactly what happened.

 

Edit:

Trauma can manifest in many ways. It's not just about freezing and doing nothing, it's about doing unpredictable and unreasonable things during a battle. Kaladin screaming "stop", was that. He froze, unable to do what he should do, and all he could do was to shout to them to stop.

Edited March 20, 2023 by alder24

[Sovieticozasz]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Spoilers from OB and RoW are allowed here.

It's not like that. All those actions Kaladin took before this moment were "us vs them". Protecting people close to him from those who just want to hurt them. Good vs evil. This mental image was already cracked during the battle on the Tower in WoK, when Kaladin found that he respects Listeners, and they are just like him in some ways. But in OB this changed dramatically, when he decided to help a group of Singers, whom he followed. They weren't evil Voidbringers that wanted to destroy the world, they were just lost people, former slaves who escaped like Kaladin, and want to be free, want to have family and protect those close to him, like this one little girl. They were just like Kaladin, he saw himself in them, he saw Teft, Rock, Lopen and other members of Bridge 4 in those Singers. He helped them, taught them, befriended them and created another "Bridge 4", a family, a group of people close to him. Those he cares about. During the Kholinar siege he did it again with the Wall Guard. That was another group of people close to him. But he constantly wants to save everyone that's close to him from harm. And when those two groups met in Kholinar palace, when his Parsh friends met his new Kholinar friends, his whole heart said he needed to protect both of them simultaneously. They all are his friends, people he cares about, his Tien. But how could he do this when they themself didn't see it this way? When they started to kill each other, slicing and stabbing? How can he protect them all, like he sworn in his Oaths, when now he needed to kill one his group of friends to save the other one? That was the only decision he could make, during active siege, active fight. There is no incapacitating people during a battle. Maces or hammers don't incapacitate people, they kill them, even more brutally than a sword (just smack a hammer into a watermelon and see what happens). In this very moment he had to follow the Oath he swerved, and he personally wanted to protect those he cares about, but he cares equally about both of them, so how can he kill one group of people he cares about to save the other group he cares about? He couldn't. He just wanted them to see it in the same way he saw it, that they are both the same, they are both his friends and they shouldn't fight with each other. They didn't see it. They all fought for different reasons than Kaladin.

Previously all the other times when he acted, he fought against people he didn't know, he didn't care about. This time he had to fight against his friends. Kaladin can’t do it. Who could do it and kill people he cares about?

The same goes for Moash. Kaladin never accepted the fact that Moash betrayed him. He still viewed him as part of Bridge 4, as his friend, someone who he can bring back to the family. That's why Kaladin could never do anything about him, as he still cares about him.

Battle shock, or combat stress reaction, is a real thing. People get overwhelmed during battle, can acquire serious long term mental problems, and can even freeze. During WW1, shell shock was a serious issue, common among soldiers. In some battles, like battle of the Somme, 40% of casualties were shell-shocked. Kaladin got overwhelmed by his own mind, unable to protect those he cared about.

When I was reading OB, and I read about Kaladin helping Singers, I knew he will seriously suffer from this soon. I fully expected him to freeze during some important battle, because he will face his new Parsh friends on the other side. And this was exactly what happened.

 

Edit:

Trauma can manifest in many ways. It's not just about freezing and doing nothing, it's about doing unpredictable and unreasonable things during a battle. Kaladin screaming "stop", was that. He froze, unable to do what he should do, and all he could do was to shout to them to stop.

Yeah, i can agree on the trauma point, and that it may manifest like that.

But i find hard to believe that this was the point where Kaladin finds himself doing nothing, since i dont agree with the point of him always being "us vs them". When he claimed the first ideal, he faced Moash, his only real friend at the moment, he threatened him and was willing to kill him (or so he stated), he was certainly willing to die, to protect Elokhar. Agains his best friend at the moment. Literally what made him a Radiant, was confronting his best friend.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Sovieticozasz said:

Yeah, i can agree on the trauma point, and that it may manifest like that.

But i find hard to believe that this was the point where Kaladin finds himself doing nothing, since i dont agree with the point of him always being "us vs them". When he claimed the first ideal, he faced Moash, his only real friend at the moment, he threatened him and was willing to kill him (or so he stated), he was certainly willing to die, to protect Elokhar. Agains his best friend at the moment. Literally what made him a Radiant, was confronting his best friend.

Actually, it wasn't that Kaladin was willing to kill Moash, it was that Kaladin was willing to force Moash to kill him to get to Elhokar. Here's the scene (CHs 83, 84):

Spoiler

“But Moash, we’re not going to be this kind of men. Murders in dark corridors, killing a drunk man because we find him distasteful, telling ourselves it’s for the good of the kingdom. If I kill a man, I’m going to do it in the sunlight, and I’m going to do it only because there is no other way.”

Moash hesitated. Graves clinked up beside him, but again Moash raised a hand, stopping him. Moash met Kaladin’s eyes, then shook his head. “Sorry, Kal. It’s too late.”

“You won’t have him. I won’t back down.”

“I guess I wouldn’t want you to.” Moash slammed his faceplate down

<snip for length>

Moash stepped forward, but did not summon his Shardblade.

Kaladin struck with his spear, but it was futile. He’d used what strength he had to merely remain upright. His spear glanced off Moash’s helm, and the former bridgeman slapped a fist down on the weapon, shattering the wood.

Kaladin lurched to a stop, but Moash wasn’t done. He stepped forward and slammed an armored fist into Kaladin’s gut.

Kaladin gasped, folding as things broke inside of him. Ribs snapped like twigs before that impossibly strong fist. Kaladin coughed, spraying blood across Moash’s armor, then groaned as his friend stepped back, removing his fist.

<snip for length>

Kaladin moved one foot back, touching his heel to the king, forming a battle stance. Then raised his hand before him, knife out. His hand shook like a roof rattling from thunder. He met Moash’s eyes.

Strength before weakness.

“You. Will. Not. Have. Him.”

Finish this, Moash,” Graves said.

“Storms,” Moash said. “There’s no need. Look at him. He can’t fight back.”

Kaladin felt exhausted. At least he’d stood up.

<snip for length>

It was the end. The journey had come and gone.

Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.

He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.

HE BETRAYED HIS OATH.

“He has seen too much,” Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him.”

The knife slipped from Kaladin’s fingers, clanging to the ground. He was too weak to hold it. His arm flopped back to his side, and he stared down at the knife, dazed.

<snip for length>

For a moment, they stood in darkness.

Then Kaladin exploded with Light.

It erupted from his body, making him shine like a blazing white sun in the darkness. Moash backed away, face pale in the white brilliance, throwing up a hand to shade his eyes.

He knew that his condition, and only wielding a knife against two Shardbearers wasn't a situation he could win.

Also, he did freeze in the battle where Tien died (WoK Ch 67):

Spoiler

Tien! he thought, forcing himself up. Someone loomed above him, and Kaladin reacted immediately, rolling as a spear came down for his heart. His own spear was back in his hands before he realized he’d grabbed it, and he whipped it upward.

Then he froze. He’d just driven his spear through the enemy soldier’s neck. It had happened so quickly. I just killed a man.

He rolled over, letting the enemy drop to his knees as Kaladin yanked his spear free. Varth’s squad was back a little farther. The enemy hit it a little while after attacking where Kaladin had been. Tien and the other two were still in the front.

“Tien!” Kaladin yelled.

The boy looked toward him, eyes opening wide. He actually smiled. Behind him, the rest of the squad pulled back. Leaving the three untrained boys exposed.

And, sensing weakness, the enemy soldiers descended on Tien and the others. There was an armored lighteyes at their front, in gleaming steel. He swung a sword.

Kaladin’s brother fell just like that. One eyeblink and he was standing there, looking terrified. The next he was on the ground.

Sure, seeing Tien fall "woke" Kaladin up again so he moved to his brother. But he froze as he watched Tien die. ANd he froze again over Tien's body - ignoring all sides of the battle and was just lucky that nobody attacked him while he gave in to his grief.

Also, remember that the scene you are referencing in Oathbringer isn't just PTSD - Kaladin also has conflicting Oaths to Protect both sides. He couldn't reconcile non-lethal attacks as a method of "protection" in the heat of the moment. He might have with enough time to process. . . but time is one thing you don't have in battle.  

Edited March 21, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

1 hour ago, Sovieticozasz said:

Yeah, i can agree on the trauma point, and that it may manifest like that.

But i find hard to believe that this was the point where Kaladin finds himself doing nothing, since i dont agree with the point of him always being "us vs them". When he claimed the first ideal, he faced Moash, his only real friend at the moment, he threatened him and was willing to kill him (or so he stated), he was certainly willing to die, to protect Elokhar. Agains his best friend at the moment. Literally what made him a Radiant, was confronting his best friend.

It was his 3rd ideal vs Moash to save Elokhar, but I digress

I also agree it was more than just "us v. them" in all situations, though I could argue that Moash very much made himself a "them" in that moment. 

Kaladin (and the Windrunners in general) are driven more than any other characters by the combination of both what is "right" and what is "honorable". Kal's trauma and his empathy with all sides in that specific fight, mean he was paralyzed with indecision for what the right+honorable action was in this instance. usually he can see with clarity what the right/honorable actions are. When he can't... he tends to not act. Here, but also as he just sits there in WoR while Moash is going about his plan. He is conflicted and it takes Kal time to reach the decision for what is right+honorable, which he comes to in the hallway. 

Here... he doesn't have the luxury of time to mull his thoughts and consult others, etc. He has to act immediately... and so he can't act. 

If he'd never spent time with the group of listeners they wouldn't even have made it to that place anyway likely, so he's feeling guilt as they die on top of everything else

To me it's entirely consistent with where Kal is at that point. 

I still hate it because it means Elokhar dies, but.. it didn't seem out of character to me

.... it also leads directly into his entire character arc in RoW. So it's relevant beyond Oathbringer

Edited March 21, 2023 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Sovieticozasz]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, it wasn't that Kaladin was willing to kill Moash, it was that Kaladin was willing to force Moash to kill him to get to Elhokar. Here's the scene (CHs 83, 84):

  Reveal hidden contents

“But Moash, we’re not going to be this kind of men. Murders in dark corridors, killing a drunk man because we find him distasteful, telling ourselves it’s for the good of the kingdom. If I kill a man, I’m going to do it in the sunlight, and I’m going to do it only because there is no other way.”

Moash hesitated. Graves clinked up beside him, but again Moash raised a hand, stopping him. Moash met Kaladin’s eyes, then shook his head. “Sorry, Kal. It’s too late.”

“You won’t have him. I won’t back down.”

“I guess I wouldn’t want you to.” Moash slammed his faceplate down

<snip for length>

Moash stepped forward, but did not summon his Shardblade.

Kaladin struck with his spear, but it was futile. He’d used what strength he had to merely remain upright. His spear glanced off Moash’s helm, and the former bridgeman slapped a fist down on the weapon, shattering the wood.

Kaladin lurched to a stop, but Moash wasn’t done. He stepped forward and slammed an armored fist into Kaladin’s gut.

Kaladin gasped, folding as things broke inside of him. Ribs snapped like twigs before that impossibly strong fist. Kaladin coughed, spraying blood across Moash’s armor, then groaned as his friend stepped back, removing his fist.

<snip for length>

Kaladin moved one foot back, touching his heel to the king, forming a battle stance. Then raised his hand before him, knife out. His hand shook like a roof rattling from thunder. He met Moash’s eyes.

Strength before weakness.

“You. Will. Not. Have. Him.”

Finish this, Moash,” Graves said.

“Storms,” Moash said. “There’s no need. Look at him. He can’t fight back.”

Kaladin felt exhausted. At least he’d stood up.

<snip for length>

It was the end. The journey had come and gone.

Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.

He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.

HE BETRAYED HIS OATH.

“He has seen too much,” Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him.”

The knife slipped from Kaladin’s fingers, clanging to the ground. He was too weak to hold it. His arm flopped back to his side, and he stared down at the knife, dazed.

<snip for length>

For a moment, they stood in darkness.

Then Kaladin exploded with Light.

It erupted from his body, making him shine like a blazing white sun in the darkness. Moash backed away, face pale in the white brilliance, throwing up a hand to shade his eyes.

He knew that his condition, and only wielding a knife against two Shardbearers wasn't a situation he could win.

Also, he did freeze in the battle where Tien died (WoK Ch 67):

  Reveal hidden contents

Tien! he thought, forcing himself up. Someone loomed above him, and Kaladin reacted immediately, rolling as a spear came down for his heart. His own spear was back in his hands before he realized he’d grabbed it, and he whipped it upward.

Then he froze. He’d just driven his spear through the enemy soldier’s neck. It had happened so quickly. I just killed a man.

He rolled over, letting the enemy drop to his knees as Kaladin yanked his spear free. Varth’s squad was back a little farther. The enemy hit it a little while after attacking where Kaladin had been. Tien and the other two were still in the front.

“Tien!” Kaladin yelled.

The boy looked toward him, eyes opening wide. He actually smiled. Behind him, the rest of the squad pulled back. Leaving the three untrained boys exposed.

And, sensing weakness, the enemy soldiers descended on Tien and the others. There was an armored lighteyes at their front, in gleaming steel. He swung a sword.

Kaladin’s brother fell just like that. One eyeblink and he was standing there, looking terrified. The next he was on the ground.

Sure, seeing Tien fall "woke" Kaladin up again so he moved to his brother. But he froze as he watched Tien die. ANd he froze again over Tien's body - ignoring all sides of the battle and was just lucky that nobody attacked him while he gave in to his grief.

Also, remember that the scene you are referencing in Oathbringer isn't just PTSD - Kaladin also has conflicting Oaths to Protect both sides. He couldn't reconcile non-lethal attacks as a method of "protection" in the heat of the moment. He might have with enough time to process. . . but time is one thing you don't have in battle.  

Well, i was clearly mistaken. I had to reread the entire part again but you are right he was not willing or at least he does not state to be willing to kill Moash. I must have assumed that the "You will not have it" implied more and missremembered.

I dont believe the "froze" in Tien's scene is the same, he literally rolls over the next second janks the spear and calls for Tien as he is killed without any time to do anything. And yes he stood with his body the rest of the battle and a lot longer, but protecting Tien , at that time was his only reason to fight, i dont believe he froze, he just did not have any reason to do anything there anymore at that time.

But it is true what Green Hoodie Mistborn has said, when he doesnt know, he doesnt act, and he did not have the time to mull it out and decide to try some non-lethal approach or something. Yeah i can see that, the scene makes much more sense to me if he does not know what to do, more than he is just frozen because of trauma, and then seeing things unfold because of his inaction do break something inside of him.

Well i have made peace with the scene then, it makes sense. Thank you guys for all the help explaining things to me.

[+asmodeus]

See, the thing here is, Kaladin isn't merely freezing in this scene.

This has been a consistent throughline to Kaladin as he has grown; each of those things you mention, where he has been a man of action, exist, sure. But... Kaladin as a character isn't being framed as a man of action vs one of words in the books, Kaladin as a character is being framed as someone who struggles with the idea cost-benefit analysis.

See, Kaladin, as a person, has always been idealistic. This is also one of the major things that make him "Honorable" (Honor, as is presented in the Cosmere). This idea of him looking up and seeing the potential for a better world, where people... just do the right thing. They look out for each other, they help each other, they lift each other up. A world where there are warriors that stand tall, in gleaming armor, to defend the innocent.

And a consistent theme of his character is him having to deal with the worst of this world, in almost an Odious sense. The soldiers in this world aren't glorious warriors in gleaming armor that fight for the right things, they are fodder for the games of warlords who thirst for power. And... Kaladin has always struggled with facing this world, that's a huge portion of his arc.

And the idea here is that he tries, time and again, to do the "right" thing. When Tien goes, an idealistic Kaladin goes with him, to protect him, but also to join the ranks of thpse great soldiers. When Tien dies, despite the promises of those above him, Kaladin loses a lot of that light that kept him going. And from that point on, he tries to hold on, to build something that makes him feel that what he's been doing has helped, has been worth it, but he repeatedly fails. Every "team" he tries to build? It breaks apart. People he tries to protect? They die.

Kaladin starts in the books at the point of not just depression, but suicidal ideation. One of the first things we see him do is try to make poison to kill himself; he is saved only by Syl's innocent intervention. It was the presence of Syl, that made him try one more time with Bridge Four; Kaladin was not a man of action then, he had already given up, he was looking to die. This is actually one of the big things that make him connect so well with Moash, and why Moash became his second, that early on. He and Moash were both in some incredibly dark places, the difference is only that Kaladin is able to scrounge back from that place because Syl was present, as a force, around him. He is able to do that because he had Teft and Rock, and because he had his oaths to guide him.

But... everything he built with Bridge Four? It was always a stopgap. He never got over the fact that he lost Tien. Building his crew in Amaram's army, building his crew around Bridge Four... they were always... replacements, for Tien. Something he could do, in lieu of his failure to protect Tien. Consequently, every time he fails to protect a crew, it's like that original failure, all over again.

So when Moash, and Sah, and Khen.... all members of Kaladin's crew, fight against Elhokar; another replacement for Tien, Kaladin... is lost. This is the absolute worst situation you could put him in. This is a man that has been running on fumes for years, being made to confront the worst situation you can present him: that of two groups that he sees individual, idealistic value in, opposing each other, hating each other so thoroughly that a middle ground between them feels impossible. That's why he freezes. Because he's facing failure all over again. A failure that he has been trying to turn into a success, and has failed at, again and again. This is just like all those other times; when Amaram murdered his crew, when Tien died, and no matter how hard he tries, he cannot stop it from happening.

That's his problem. He's... worn down. Tired. Barely functional already, being made to face the absolute failure of that one thing that he's been holding on to, to keep going.

Edited March 23, 2023 by asmodeus

[JohnnyKaizen]

As someone who deals with depression and PTSD, his actions make a lot of sense to me. Kaladin saw something that his mind didn't want to (or couldn't) accept; that his friends were going to kill each other. Even as that was happening, he sees that Elhokar was about to bond a spren, and his mind latches onto that ray of hope in the middle of extreme trauma, and Moash shows up and steals even that away. This traumatizes Kaladin even more..to the point that he's nearly catatonic. It broke his brain, and the only reason i find it believable that he was able to come out of that as quickly as he did is that he has a bond literally in his soul to Syl..who helps him share that load. 

To me, Kaladin's locking up makes perfect sense.

Edited April 10, 2023 by JohnnyKaizen

[Bridge Boy]

@Sovieticozasz I agree with you completely. This is a good example to me of my main issue with the most recent two stormlight archive books. 

I genuinely feel that Sanderson has lost his original vision and understanding of many of his characters over the course of Oathbringer & Rhythm of War. The characters now exist solely as a mechanism to see the super cool story happen, as if they are just witnessing it rather than influencing it; like pretty wall paper. 

The deep complicated characters that drove the plot in realistic ways through the original two books, now appear to be just caricatures of themselves; over pronouncing the elements that were originally so subtle. I feel "Cringe" reading these characters now and how "on the nose" all of their actions are, and how often things just happen without their choices really mattering at all, in order to move the plot along. It feels contrived with many of the characters' actions not aligning with how real they felt in the first two books. 

I long for the days when Sanderson's immersion was world class, and the characters felt like real people. 

[Nogo]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:40 PM, Sovieticozasz said:

Hello to everyone.I was just reading Oathbringer yesterday, and i had to stop reading after one chapter because nothing made sense to me anymore. I am talking about the ( i dont know if spoilers are in order since is an old book but i will spoiler tag the rest, be aware that it includes heavy spoilers of Oathbringer and previous books.) 

So what do people think? i am reading too much in the character? anyone else found the situation forced?.

 

I am an Infantryman who fought in the streets of Ramadi and Baghdad back in the 2000s... and I have always marveled at how well Sanderson makes combat situations, emotions, and reaction ridiculously realistic. He amazes me ALL THE TIME with his visionary understanding of something that he hasn't actually experienced.

Soldiers in combat do weird things.  It just happens.  When you are presented with a situation that you have not been trained for, you make a split second decision and have to roll with it.  This is why units train battledrills so that soldiers immediately react to situations you tend find yourself in while in combat.  Kaladin had never even contemplated that two of his own forces would be fighting each other.  He had zero training to that affect.  There's no way, in that situation, that Kaladin makes the best decision.   Him being who he is, you know that he won't attack either side, and that idea that he's going to go and come up with a perfect "use a blunt object and intervene" plan is unrealistic imo.  

I think that the fact that you didn't catch this until you re-read the book (at least one time) shows that in the spur of the moment, the ideal situation is not intuitively obvious.  Having made some hairbrained / nutjob / absolutely stupid combat decisions myself... I think that I can relate pretty well.