bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 Mistborn Wax with his spikes and his special Grenade launcher vs 4 ideal Kalidin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky Breaker Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 This might be a tough one but I think kaladin would pull through considering he has armor that can heal and can heal himself and wax’s RPG may or may not crack shardplate fast enough to hurt him 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 Kaladin no contest. Wax's Lerasium dose was so low that he might as well not be able to burn the other metals. So basically he has steel and duralumin, versus 4th oath kal, when 3rd oath could have beaten Vin. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Frustration said: Kaladin no contest. Wax's Lerasium dose was so low that he might as well not be able to burn the other metals. So basically he has steel and duralumin, versus 4th oath kal, when 3rd oath could have beaten Vin. I wouldn't say it was that low he burned durilumin just fine after all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: I wouldn't say it was that low he burned durilumin just fine after all. He used a Hemalurgic spike to get duralumin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 21 minutes ago, Frustration said: He used a Hemalurgic spike to get duralumin. Sorry I ment Pewter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: Sorry I ment Pewter The question is: was his pewter actually strong enough to have a noticable effect, or is his survival purely a result of Sazed protecting him? I lean towards the later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacrossedeamon Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 Well it's also implied he was able to subconsciously burned copper while Marsh was using emotional allomancy and I think iron when recovering his effects while falling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 20 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said: Well it's also implied he was able to subconsciously burned copper while Marsh was using emotional allomancy Marasi is also unaffected by emotional Allomancy's second wave when that one woman is rioting Gave. 20 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said: I think iron when recovering his effects while falling. He had just been leeched so he couldn't have had any iron. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacrossedeamon Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 WOB is that it had at least enough of a noticeable effect for Wax to know something is up and will have a continued noticeable effect for him to actually figure it out. 45 minutes ago, Frustration said: Marasi is also unaffected by emotional Allomancy's second wave when that one woman is rioting Gave. I'd argue magnitude of scale is very different as is the way it's framed. 46 minutes ago, Frustration said: He had just been leeched so he couldn't have had any iron. I'd have to reread the passage but I think they lampshade the pull in the text so this might actually be author error. Unless some metals are hard to leech due to existing elsewhere in the body such as the iron content of blood? Also leeching isn't instantaneous; it's possible to have been leeched but trace stores remaining. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Frustration said: The question is: was his pewter actually strong enough to have a noticable effect, or is his survival purely a result of Sazed protecting him? I lean towards the later. He uses it after Sazed saves him Edited February 3, 2023 by bmcclure7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said: WOB is that it had at least enough of a noticeable effect for Wax to know something is up and will have a continued noticeable effect for him to actually figure it out. I'd argue magnitude of scale is very different as is the way it's framed. I'd have to reread the passage but I think they lampshade the pull in the text so this might actually be author error. Unless some metals are hard to leech due to existing elsewhere in the body such as the iron content of blood? Also leeching isn't instantaneous; it's possible to have been leeched but trace stores remaining. A leech only works on metal you are currently burning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacrossedeamon Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 37 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: A leech only works on metal you are currently burning. I'm not sure that is actually true but if so it would be an explanation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: A leech only works on metal you are currently burning. Not true, it works on all metals (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881), with the WoB suggesting that metals not being currently burned would actually be leeched first. 7 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said: WOB is that it had at least enough of a noticeable effect for Wax to know something is up and will have a continued noticeable effect for him to actually figure it out. Since he already has experience with other metals from Bands of Mourning, he can simply ingest vial with all metals and try to burn them. And because he already knows how it feels, he would recognize it. So while Wax is a Mistborn he is incredibly weak one, weaker than Vin. And already 3rd Oath Windrunner can beat full Mistborn (minus Atium). All Wax has going for him is Steel, Duralumin and F-Iron. He is far less mobile, cannot heal, cannot protect himself from Lashed items, and has nothing that would help him against Shardblade. Coins cannot penetrate even wood, so they would do nothing to Shardplate, and using Duralumin for stronger push would leave him effectively immobile. Grenade launcher would be not particularly useful against Shardplate (at least based on the fact that grenades were shrapnel based it seems), and even Wax would typically take 2-3 bullets to break a single section. And even after breaking a section he has no easy way to kill Radiant with Stormlight. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacrossedeamon Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 10 minutes ago, therunner said: And already 3rd Oath Windrunner can beat full Mistborn (minus Atium). I assume there is a WOB for this. How exactly is it worded? I actually don’t have an axehound in this fight just playing Odium’s advocate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 33 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said: I assume there is a WOB for this. How exactly is it worded? There is not one stating the atium requirement exactly, but Atium is tough to beat in close quarters (though if pure Godmetals don't leave Atium shadows like Aluminum, then it would be nearly useless against 4th Oath Radiant). Most are phrased comparing Kaladin and Vin (with timing being at the time Kaladin was 3rd Oath). Since both are prodigies, it is typically taken that those WoBs generalize across comparable skill levels. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 basically stating that Mistborn can only win by sneaking around and striking like that (not something Wax is good at). https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018 Again stating that on battlefield Kaladin would win over Vin. While the second two assume Vin, so most likely without access to last 4 metals, it would not make much difference. Chromium won't help against someone in Shardplate, and requires sustained physical contact (i.e. Shardblade range), Bendalloy bubble is useful only to do small repositioning (and is not anchored to user, so is useless in air), and Cadmium bubble is only useful in conjunction with Bendalloy to create a sort of shield (which could be possibly popped by Shardblade, since they can cut Iron/Steel lines) and again can really be only used on ground as both are stationary. 43 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said: I actually don’t have an axehound in this fight just playing Odium’s advocate. Completely fair, probing questions keep us all honest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 8 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said: Also leeching isn't instantaneous; it's possible to have been leeched but trace stores remaining. It's not but metals don't put up much resistance 6 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: He uses it after Sazed saves him When? 4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said: A leech only works on metal you are currently burning. That's not true. Wax had his steel leeched when fighting his uncle during BoM and wasn't burning it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacrossedeamon Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 19 minutes ago, therunner said: There is not one stating the atium requirement exactly, but Atium is tough to beat in close quarters (though if pure Godmetals don't leave Atium shadows like Aluminum, then it would be nearly useless against 4th Oath Radiant). Most are phrased comparing Kaladin and Vin (with timing being at the time Kaladin was 3rd Oath). Since both are prodigies, it is typically taken that those WoBs generalize across comparable skill levels. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 basically stating that Mistborn can only win by sneaking around and striking like that (not something Wax is good at). https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018 Again stating that on battlefield Kaladin would win over Vin. While the second two assume Vin, so most likely without access to last 4 metals, it would not make much difference. Chromium won't help against someone in Shardplate, and requires sustained physical contact (i.e. Shardblade range), Bendalloy bubble is useful only to do small repositioning (and is not anchored to user, so is useless in air), and Cadmium bubble is only useful in conjunction with Bendalloy to create a sort of shield (which could be possibly popped by Shardblade, since they can cut Iron/Steel lines) and again can really be only used on ground as both are stationary. Completely fair, probing questions keep us all honest. My only quibble would be the semantic of it being phrased around Vin vs Kaladin. Even if you argue Vin beats Wax which is a logical assumption (although I can see some arguments against) it could be a weird rock-paper-scissors thing instead of just a transitive property thing. Possibly because I’d argue that Wax has more of a soldier mentality than Vin does which might make him a better match up for Kaladin than she would. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 10 hours ago, Frustration said: The question is: was his pewter actually strong enough to have a noticable effect, or is his survival purely a result of Sazed protecting him? I lean towards the later. I think Sazed told Wayne that Wax will survive because he burns pewter, so while Sazed did save him, a blast wave transmitted by water would be enough to kill him, yet it only broke his legs - both Sazed and pewter helped here. Shardplate is too big of an advantage, while I can see a few ways for Wax to crack it or break few fragments, living plate can heal itself, and a short lasting opening won't kill Kaladin, as he can heal himself as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 7 hours ago, therunner said: Not true, it works on all metals (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e881), with the WoB suggesting that metals not being currently burned would actually be leeched first. Since he already has experience with other metals from Bands of Mourning, he can simply ingest vial with all metals and try to burn them. And because he already knows how it feels, he would recognize it. So while Wax is a Mistborn he is incredibly weak one, weaker than Vin. And already 3rd Oath Windrunner can beat full Mistborn (minus Atium). All Wax has going for him is Steel, Duralumin and F-Iron. He is far less mobile, cannot heal, cannot protect himself from Lashed items, and has nothing that would help him against Shardblade. Coins cannot penetrate even wood, so they would do nothing to Shardplate, and using Duralumin for stronger push would leave him effectively immobile. Grenade launcher would be not particularly useful against Shardplate (at least based on the fact that grenades were shrapnel based it seems), and even Wax would typically take 2-3 bullets to break a single section. And even after breaking a section he has no easy way to kill Radiant with Stormlight. That wob doesn't saying anything about the metals your not burning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 6 hours ago, Frustration said: It's not but metals don't put up much resistance When? That's not true. Wax had his steel leeched when fighting his uncle during BoM and wasn't burning it. 1. When he is try to swim back. 2. It been awhile since I read bands maybe i think I forgot that part. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 Just now, bmcclure7 said: 1. When he is try to swim back. He didn't swim back, Hoid picked him up 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted February 3, 2023 Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said: That wob doesn't saying anything about the metals your not burning. Wasn't Marasi hit with a primer cube of chromium by the limping man in the train fight in BoM? She didn't burn the metal and it didn't affect her. She still could use it later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmcclure7 Posted February 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: He didn't swim back, Hoid picked him up Before he found hoid. He's exhausted he tries to burn steel but runs out, Then he finds something else within him and starts burning it, (traces of pewter) Suddenly he has the energy to keep going. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tglassy Posted February 4, 2023 Report Share Posted February 4, 2023 (edited) I’ve always hated the WOB that says a Mistborn would be better sneaking around and assassinating than on the battlefield when half the battles in Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages showed Mistborn dominating on the battlefield. Wax Vs Kal, Kal would probably win, but a grenade launcher is still a grenade launcher. Hit the armor dead on and it will crack. Wax is also good enough to hit a bullet mid flight to deflect it just right to hit an enemy in the head when they’re hiding behind someone. If he manages to get a shot in Kal’s Visor, it’ll just rattle around inside the helmet for a while, then you just keep shooting until they die. But that is an extremely small chance of happening. So probably Kal. Edited February 4, 2023 by Tglassy 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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