How the hell are the singers maintaining their population?

[bmcclure7]

How the hell are the singers maintaining their population ? Given that none of there soldiers, scholars, Artists, or even works can reproduce?

Dose anyone have any ideas, so there a word of Brandon on this, is this a world building hole?

 

[LuckyJim]

They can change forms any time a highstorm comes, so its pretty simple for a section of them to just take mateform.

[bmcclure7]

19 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

They can change forms any time a highstorm comes, so its pretty simple for a section of them to just take mateform.

1.Except then they have to quit there job for a least the next highstorm. 

2.How are they forcing people to take mate form?

[LuckyJim]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Except then they have to quit there job for a least the next highstorm. 

2.How are they forcing people to take mate form?

1 I don't think this would be that big a deal. For one, a healthy population would have enough that some singers could quit their jobs to have children and those positions would be filled by other singers in the meantime. Also, considering all singers are untrained in any complex tasks, it's not like they have any specialists that they'd need to keep on hand at all times in the first place.

2 Why would they be forcing them? It doesn't seem like a leap to assume that there would be plenty of singers perfectly willing to have children.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

1 I don't think this would be that big a deal. For one, a healthy population would have enough that some singers could quit their jobs to have children and those positions would be filled by other singers in the meantime. Also, considering all singers are untrained in any complex tasks, it's not like they have any specialists that they'd need to keep on hand at all times in the first place.

2 Why would they be forcing them? It doesn't seem like a leap to assume that there would be plenty of singers perfectly willing to have children.

1.think about what your taking about large amounts of the work force having to go on leave several times a year. At least and for a extended period of time to. 

 

2. Enough to reach replacement levels I doubt it.  

[therunner he/him]

50 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.think about what your taking about large amounts of the work force having to go on leave several times a year. At least and for a extended period of time to.

I mean 5-6 weeks PTO is relatively normal in most advanced countries, and on top of that you have months of paternity leave and months/years of maternity leave.
And those economies still function and even thrive, so parts of work force leaving for extended time is not really an issue.
And for pre-industrial society that would be even less so.

51 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. Enough to reach replacement levels I doubt it.  

Why? They obviously are not going extinct, and their population levels are typically increasing over-time (Last Legion numbers vs Listener population).
So clearly, there are enough of singers that want to have children.

Additionally, other forms are not necessarily infertile, they just have very low fertility

[Treamayne]

Also, keep in mind that Slave Form was also fertile, and there is already a large population of children by the time the Everstorm arrives. Also development and maturity come much faster for a Singer than a human (Venli's first "Form" was around age 7 - entering "puberty" and considered an adult at age 10). Coppermind

[alder24]

9 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

How the hell are the singers maintaining their population ?

I don't think they are. They're currently fighting a global war, and their leaders are using SIngers as puppets just to return, killing thousands of them. They had to migrate and leave their homes after Everstorm came, some might get killed due to Hightstorms and harsh traveling conditions and many were forced to war immediately and were thrown at walls of Kholianr and fields of Herdaz. Most Fuzed care only about winning the war not about maintaining Singers population. I would say Singers are currently at a steep decline, however there is tens of millions of them, so the effect of that would not be seen yet. Also Singers now have access to human slaves and workers on occupied grounds, so workforce is provided when they change to mate form.

Singers can choose mate form whenever they want, become pregnant and maybe even go back to their form and work after that while being pregnant. Kids seams to be growing faster than human kids and are more independent - they don't need their parents, their parents can work, while the babysitter takes care of those who needs it.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah I think they are *not* maintaining their population.

Pretty sure the listeners were losing out during their war with the Alethi. I don't think parshmen death rates were likely that high (they seem to have been generally not used for the more dangerous jobs - like running bridges - because they were considered more valuable than potentially rebellious/escape prone human slaves), and their year and some since being awakened has been spent mostly at war and with many of them in forms that don't reproduce, so I imagine the death rate is far higher *and* the birth rate lower.

I think the Fused are hoping to win before it matters (plus they have humans on their side too).

Its not a worldbuilding hole because in the more general situation- outside the current Desolation - @Treamayneis right. The much faster growth will more than make up for it. They grow up at close to double the human rate; that faster generation time makes a huge difference over long time spans. In the earlier era when there were centuries or decades between Desolations their population probably recovered much better than humans (and doubly so because very low tech singers are better off on most of Roshar than very low tech humans).

Edited January 20, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Returned]

As others have said, they probably weren't maintaining their population. They usually committed relatively few troops to engagements on the Shattered Plains, were much more capable of retreat (no need for maneuvering bridges), seemed to have a serviceably-sized standing military, and had an ample civilian population which was not needed for industry (they didn't build much or make weapons, and had enough excess labor to be able to heavily invest in researching new forms). Because the Alethi couldn't locate or reach their population center the Listeners' only suffered attrition among their soldiers, which could be quickly replaced with the excess labor force of civilians taking Warform.

The Alethi strategy at the end of WoR was explicitly to destroy enough of the Listener population to shatter their ability to continue fighting the war, and they were more or less successful. If not for the coming of the Everstorm, this probably would have been effective.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Returned

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah I think they are *not* maintaining their population.

Pretty sure the listeners were losing out during their war with the Alethi. I don't think parshmen death rates were likely that high (they seem to have been generally not used for the more dangerous jobs - like running bridges - because they were considered more valuable than potentially rebellious/escape prone human slaves), and their year and some since being awakened has been spent mostly at war and with many of them in forms that don't reproduce, so I imagine the death rate is far higher *and* the birth rate lower.

I think the Fused are hoping to win before it matters (plus they have humans on their side too).

Its not a worldbuilding hole because in the more general situation- outside the current Desolation - @Treamayneis right. The much faster growth will more than make up for it. They grow up at close to double the human rate; that faster generation time makes a huge difference over long time spans. In the earlier era when there were centuries or decades between Desolations their population probably recovered much better than humans (and doubly so because very low tech singers are better off on most of Roshar than very low tech humans).

Good point

[Rg2045]

Just a question, are the other forms really infertile or is it more apathetic to their sexual needs? 
they could just stay in form to have a child while at the same time they might choose mateform to make it easier 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

The problem is that several forms, including warform IIRC, has carcapace "clothing," so to have a child they need to change forms.

[Elder]

2 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Just a question, are the other forms really infertile or is it more apathetic to their sexual needs? 
they could just stay in form to have a child while at the same time they might choose mateform to make it easier 

Worth noting, slave form is obviously capable of reproduction.  I would guess that so is dull form.  Maybe work form.  But mate form actually has reproductive instinct.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Just a question, are the other forms really infertile or is it more apathetic to their sexual needs? 
they could just stay in form to have a child while at the same time they might choose mateform to make it easier 

 The text makes very clear that with the exception of slave form. All other forms we see so far are neuter gender which strongly implies that they're both sterile and uninterested in sex.  

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

Worth noting, slave form is obviously capable of reproduction.  I would guess that so is dull form.  Maybe work form.  But mate form actually has reproductive instinct.

 Last I checked both Dull form  And work form were not the right gender  for Reproduction. Am I wrong?

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Just a question, are the other forms really infertile or is it more apathetic to their sexual needs?

Infertile is our word. And while it is probably not entirely correct, it is the closest we have based on current known information. Technically speaking the Singers and Listeners have four genders:

• Male: Physically Male and with the capacity for reproduction
• Female: Physically Female with the capacity for reproduction and nursing young.
• Femalen: Physically female with all gender physiology "muted" and without the capacity for reproduction
• Malen: Physically male with all gender physiology muted and without the capacity for reproduction

However, we do not know if the "capacity for reproduction" is physical, psychological, or some combination thereof. We also know that the Listeners only survived leaving their "gods" because when they lost all Forms of Power, they still had access to Mateform (since there was no "form of power" equivalent).

[Chandlerhimself]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 The text makes very clear that with the exception of slave form. All other forms we see so far are neuter gender which strongly implies that they're both sterile and uninterested in sex.  

I don't think that they are actually a neutral gender in any form. From what characters have said they don't take mateform until they want to have children, so if they weren't male or female before they wouldn't be able to choose mates correctly. The forms don't seem to get rid of any traits, but they do seems to reduce or increase them. They must have some sort of interest in sex or they wouldn't find others attractive. Also if they didn't have a gender/sex in other forms they wouldn't be able to tell who was male or female as a child and you'd have to wait until they grew up to be certain. 

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Chandlerhimself said:

I don't think that they are actually a neutral gender in any form. From what characters have said they don't take mateform until they want to have children, so if they weren't male or female before they wouldn't be able to choose mates correctly. The forms don't seem to get rid of any traits, but they do seems to reduce or increase them. They must have some sort of interest in sex or they wouldn't find others attractive. Also if they didn't have a gender/sex in other forms they wouldn't be able to tell who was male or female as a child and you'd have to wait until they grew up to be certain. 

 They literally say that they are neuter gender.  Partially have 5 genders, 2 of them are neutered Most of the forms are these genders. It only have male and female genders when in slave form or mate form.   The cup of mine can give you more information. 

[Chandlerhimself]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They literally say that they are neuter gender.  Partially have 5 genders, 2 of them are neutered Most of the forms are these genders. It only have male and female genders when in slave form or mate form.   The cup of mine can give you more information. 

You are right about the 5 genders, but on the copper mind it says the other forms can reproduce. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3400

He implies that the others can also reproduce or at least more than mate form and dull form can. I imagine they just don't want to when in a different form. 

 

I believe the neuter part is about how they act and their interest in sex. If there was no difference between malen and femalen there would be only be 3 instead of 5. From what it seems like there are male and female sexes(perhaps 1 other) and 5 genders, with 3 of them not being interested in sex. It doesn't say or imply they are sterile, but their fertility could be lowered and they certainly would not be interested in mating. 

[ScavellTane]

Singers 'grow up' faster than humans.

[Frustration he/him]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 They literally say that they are neuter gender.  Partially have 5 genders, 2 of them are neutered Most of the forms are these genders. It only have male and female genders when in slave form or mate form.   The cup of mine can give you more information. 

Where are you getting the fifth from? There's only 4.

Male

Malen

Female

Femalen

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, Chandlerhimself said:

You are right about the 5 genders, but on the copper mind it says the other forms can reproduce. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3400

He implies that the others can also reproduce or at least more than mate form and dull form can. I imagine they just don't want to when in a different form. 

 

I believe the neuter part is about how they act and their interest in sex. If there was no difference between malen and femalen there would be only be 3 instead of 5. From what it seems like there are male and female sexes(perhaps 1 other) and 5 genders, with 3 of them not being interested in sex. It doesn't say or imply they are sterile, but their fertility could be lowered and they certainly would not be interested in mating. 

 The wab only mentions slave form as being An alternative to mate form. If there is another form out there other than slave form That also can be reproduce,  It must be very rare because we have yet to see it on screen.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Where are you getting the fifth from? There's only 4.

Male

Malen

Female

Femalen

 Doesn't  Syl all talk about them having 5 genders at 1 point I could be wrong maybe she said 4

[Frustration he/him]

12 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Doesn't  Syl all talk about them having 5 genders at 1 point I could be wrong maybe she said 4

It was 4.