Jasnah and Shallan after RoW

[Romuless]

Ok so this has been eating at me since my first time through the series.  Now finishing up my 4th time through, and I feel like this needs to be addressed sometime soon in the story.  Shallan has been lying to Jasnah, constantly, about a great many things even after Jasnah was clear with her that she would accept no more lies from her.  Honestly if I'm Jasnah, and I find out Shallan was working with the Ghostbloods, I would want her out of the Tower, and I don't see any reasonable way around that.  Shallan has proven she will lie and manipulate whoever she wants to do things "her" way because she things she's the only one who can address any of these problems.  Her arrogance is just shocking to me.  I absolutely do not see how Shallan is following the First Ideal, not even close.  She sacrifices children and other beggers in her "brilliant" plan to infiltrate the Cult of Moments.  Does she feel bad about it? Yeah, for about 5 minutes.  Does she change her ways based on this realization? Of course not, she then goes on a trip to Lasting Integrity where she lies to every single person continuously, literally every living being she encounters she lies and manipulates for her scheme to help the Ghostbloods, which she has done plenty of already regardless of what lies she tells herself the organization isn't "rewarding" her for doing things they find useless.  She's advancing the interests of people who tried to murder her and the person who has given her access to do Everything she has accomplished or gained.  

Jasnah is extremely intelligent and good and figuring out plots.  It seems unlikely in my view that Shallan could continue to hide that she was working with the Ghostbloods from Jasnah, especially since Wit definitely knows she is, and Wit is in a relationship with Jasnah. When she does find out Shallan has been lying and manipulating her and everyone else to continue following the Ghostbloods orders (regardless of the ending of RoW) Jasnah should be furious, and should never trust her again..  She has proven she is not trustworthy, period.  No rational person would look at the lies and manipulations Shallan has performed and say "well maybe they're an honest person now".

I'll even grant that at the end of RoW maybe Shallan made some huge breakthrough.  Maybe she will go straight to Jasnah and apologize and beg forgiveness.  If I was Jasnah I would thank her for the apology then banish her immediately from Alethkar and the Tower and tell her she's unwelcome in her lands or those of Dalinar.

If I was Navani and I found out Shallan was working with the people who tried (and very nearly did) murder my daughter, I would want her executed.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Romuless

[offer]

I believe that by the end of RoW Jasnah already knows about it.

It seems that Shallan told Wit about it and Wit explain to Jasnah about Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods - I will be very surprised if he didn`t told her also about Shallan the moment he found out.

I very hope we will see this in the begining of KOWT.

Wit`s involvment is a big advantage for Shallan in this case - he seems to be protective of her and will likely help her explain her actions to Jasnah.

[Romuless]

16 minutes ago, offer said:

I believe that by the end of RoW Jasnah already knows about it.

It seems that Shallan told Wit about it and Wit explain to Jasnah about Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods - I will be very surprised if he didn`t told her also about Shallan the moment he found out.

I very hope we will see this in the begining of KOWT.

Wit`s involvment is a big advantage for Shallan in this case - he seems to be protective of her and will likely help her explain her actions to Jasnah.

I get what you mean, but I wouldn't trust her again, ever.  Can you point out some reasoning for why anyone who knows the truth about what she's done should trust her?  She's risked (and sacrificed) many innocent people's lives for her games with the Ghostbloods, including in her first meeting with them, the carriage driver.  I don't see how she can be a legitimate Radiant, unless she's bonded to a voidspren.  She regularly sacrifices and manipulates unnamed, or even important characters to reach her goals, sometimes leading to their deaths. She never informs those who's lives she is risking that she is endangering them.  What could Wit possibly say to Jasnah to convince her Shallan deserves to be trusted, in anything?  Also, not just Jasnah, how can Wit explain to Navani that Shallan was enabling and helping to hide the Ghostbloods working inside the Tower, the people who tried to kill her daughter?  If you are Navani would you really be ok with someone who worked with an organization who was out to murder your daughter.  How was Shallan to know what she was doing wouldn't lead to Jasnah's death?  She could have exposed Mraize in an instant,  exposing the Ghostbloods leader in the tower and removing a giant threat to Jasnah's life.  What did she do instead? Continued working with them, more and more so.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Romuless

[offer]

Quote

I get what you mean, but I wouldn't trust her again, ever.  Can you point out some reasoning for why anyone who knows the truth about what she's done should trust her?  She's risked (and sacrificed) many innocent people's lives for her games with the Ghostbloods, including in her first meeting with them, the carriage driver.  I don't see how she can be a legitimate Radiant, unless she's bonded to a voidspren.  She regularly sacrifices and manipulates unnamed, or even important characters to reach her goals, sometimes leading to their deaths. 

I won`t count the carriage driver for that - at this point she didn`t imagine they would kill a bystander and only after his death she understood what the ghostbloods are willling to do.

Basically her arc with the Ghostbloods started when she believe Jasnah was dead and she trying to investigate who the ghostbloods are. By the time Jasnah came back she was already in too deep to get out easily. She had to start dealing with them when she was totally unpreperd for such big tasks and she got manipulated by Mraize. 

 

10 hours ago, Romuless said:

 If you are Navani would you really be ok with someone who worked with an organization who was out to murder your daughter.  How was Shallan to know what she was doing wouldn't lead to Jasnah's death?  She could have exposed Mraize in an instant,  exposing the Ghostbloods leader in the tower and removing a giant threat to Jasnah's life.  What did she do instead? Continued working with them, more and more so.

Just exposing Mraize won`t eliminate the threat - the ghostbloods probably had a lot of other operatives in the tower or at least a lot of agents that could easily get there. Also, Mraize threatened to kill her brothers if she did not cooperate.

 

Edit: In adition, I don`t think Jasnah would kick her out of the tower because she doesn`t trust her. Jasnah doesn`t trust most people. She will keep a closer eye on Shallan (and probably send people to spy on her) but she won`t stop using her.

From the way Jasnah thought of Shallan in her POV she might blame herself for not keeping an eye on Shallan earlier (in the sense of "I should have known she might get in trouble she cant handel").

Edited January 15, 2023 by offer

[Tglassy]

You keep using the word Sacrifice.  I do not think that word means what you think it means. 

She didn't sacrifice anyone.  She got them killed through her naivete.  That's not the same thing.  And each time it happened, she changed her tactics.  She's not even twenty years old.  She has no idea what she's doing.  She's stumbling along trying to figure it out.  Hell, she doesn't even know who SHE is at this point.  

Most of the stuff she's "Done for the Ghostbloods" were things she was already going to do.  If you're getting ready to go to the grocery store, and I come up and say "Hey, I need you to go get yourself groceries.  It's part of my plans.  All you have to do is what you were going to do in the first place", does that mean you're "working for me?"  No.  You were already going to the grocery store to get yourself groceries.  What does that have to do with me?  Just because I was a creep who for some reason wants you to go get yourself groceries.  

Beside, she can always honestly say "I was trying to root them out so we could expose them."  Cause that was the original reason she joined up with them.  

[Frustration he/him]

20 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

 She's not even twenty years old. 

Just 19, as she's 17 Rosharan years old in OB, which would be roughly 19 on Earth.

Spoiler

Questioner

Are all the planets on the same timeline? Is the time the same on all of them? Like a thousand years on Roshar is a thousand years on Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

They aren't. The years on Roshar are longer. They're different. So the way they count them is different. Basically, if you took a clock that was set, the time would pass at the same speed on most of them, but the time that it is a year on different ones are different.

Questioner

I was just curious if like Anno Domini was the same for all of them like year 1 is year 1 on...

Brandon Sanderson

Nope. They are not. The calendars are all different. And Roshar for instance, if I say someone is 20 in the Stormlight books, they'd be 22 in Earth years and Scadrial uses a very-close-to-Earth year so they'd be 22 in Scadrian years. I keep them mostly very similar just for the reasons of trying not to be super confusing. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

One of the interesting (crazy, weird, amazing, infuriating) things about fiction is that things can go in unexpected ways and still somehow seem to make sense.  I think the OP makes a valid point, and it could certainly make sense if the relationship between Shallan and Jasnah plays out that way... but I don't think that will fit with Brandon's plans for the rest of the story, so I don't expect it.  Maybe Jasnah and Shallan don't even interact directly anymore - that could make sense.  Maybe Jasnah - utilitarian as always - treats Shallan as a dangerous yet useful tool.  Or, maybe, Jasnah sees Shallan for what she is: a scared teenager who's done the best she can in difficult situations.  I have no doubt Brandon could successfully sell me any of those options, plus more I can't even think of.

Jasnah has demonstrated that she doesn't take things personally, and she has always felt like she's "above" everyone else, even before she became a queen.  She may be the highest-ideal, longest tenured Radiant on the planet.  I can see her being cautious with Shallan, but not fearful or spiteful.

And Navani?  She has demonstrated that she can compartmentalize her anger and act like the leader she is.  She worked with Raboniel; she's accepted Szeth as a member of the team, even after his earnest attempt to murder Dalinar.  She can work with Shallan if she needs to.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:07 PM, Frustration said:

Just 19, as she's 17 Rosharan years old in OB, which would be roughly 19 on Earth.

Nice. I thought the characters acted a few years more mature for their age than usual. 
 

I wonder how this compares to Listeners/Singers, who mature faster than humans. 

[The Sibling she/her]

 

I don’t expect Jasnah to exile Shallan. I think that it would really mess up the story if Shallan was far away without Adolin or Kaladin or at least one other important character. I think that Jasnah would become a lot more watchful of Shallan, and maybe start to realize that Shallan is actually kind of incompetent sometimes. Not that it’s Shallan’s fault at all, but she is in way over her head, and I think Jasnah needs to pay more attention and offer more help to her. 

 

If Navanu were to find out, now that would likely be disastrous.

Edited February 9, 2023 by The Sibling

[cometaryorbit]

The people Shallan has gotten killed was due to inexperience, which is still her fault in a sense, but probably true of any major political or military leader, if less directly so (there's going to be some people in their area of control whose deaths they could have prevented) - and pretty excusable in Shallan's case given how she was thrown into things. Certainly if Jasnah was OK with Elhokar...

As for her qualifications to be a Radiant, Lightweavers are Cultivation side of the chart not Honor side, and Cryptics are attracted to lies. There's no general rule that Radiants have to be good people or honest people - their behavioral limits are Order-specific and even individual spren/Radiant relationship specific. Nale has killed a ton of people under super sketchy legal justifications. Skybreakers and Dustbringers are actively fighting for Odium. I think the First Ideal is broader than the Honor-side meaning of it we get from Kaladin and Dalinar (IMO, "journey before destination" can mean "personal growth is the point" for Cultivation-side orders, it doesn't always mean "the end doesn't justify the means").

Also, I don't think Jasnah really trusts anyone, but mistrust won't keep her from working with someone who is an useful resource. She certainly understands spying and deception (Jasnah hired assassins).

On 1/15/2023 at 2:45 PM, Tglassy said:

Beside, she can always honestly say "I was trying to root them out so we could expose them."  Cause that was the original reason she joined up with them.  

Yeah, and as of the end of RoW she's definitively turned against the Ghostbloods. I don't think anything she's done in between isn't believable as part of spying.

Edited February 9, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[jockmcplop]

I think a Wit+Shallan teamup for book 5 would be great. Imagine how exasperated Wit would be haha.

Jasnah knows her potential and definitely knows about all the stuff she's done, the lies etc. so she needs to assign someone to sort her out, right?

[alder24]

What did Shallan do that could be against Radiant's or Dalinar's cause? Most of the things she did were also requested by Dalinar. Like discovering Urithiru, explaining the weirdness in the Tower and banishing the Unmade from it. Bringing Sons of Honor and Ialai down. And in the end she refused to kill Kelek. Jasnah would most likely be proud of her (but also angry for lying) that she managed not only to use Ghostbloods but also deceive them for so long and in the end and threaten their business - kind of like Jasnah's experiment in Kharbranth with thugs in the alleyway, sometimes you have to take unmoral risk to do a good thing.

[lacrossedeamon]

As long as Shallan can argue her case she should be fine. Jasnah's go to plan to stop the Everstorm was to kill all the Parshmen, with the second hunting down and killing all the Heralds, so she should accept a little lying if Shallan can argue that it was the best course of action.

Edited February 11, 2023 by lacrossedeamon

[KaladinWorldsinger]

On 1/15/2023 at 3:24 AM, Romuless said:

Ok so this has been eating at me since my first time through the series.  Now finishing up my 4th time through, and I feel like this needs to be addressed sometime soon in the story.  Shallan has been lying to Jasnah, constantly, about a great many things even after Jasnah was clear with her that she would accept no more lies from her.  Honestly if I'm Jasnah, and I find out Shallan was working with the Ghostbloods, I would want her out of the Tower, and I don't see any reasonable way around that.  Shallan has proven she will lie and manipulate whoever she wants to do things "her" way because she things she's the only one who can address any of these problems.  Her arrogance is just shocking to me.  I absolutely do not see how Shallan is following the First Ideal, not even close.  She sacrifices children and other beggers in her "brilliant" plan to infiltrate the Cult of Moments.  Does she feel bad about it? Yeah, for about 5 minutes.  Does she change her ways based on this realization? Of course not, she then goes on a trip to Lasting Integrity where she lies to every single person continuously, literally every living being she encounters she lies and manipulates for her scheme to help the Ghostbloods, which she has done plenty of already regardless of what lies she tells herself the organization isn't "rewarding" her for doing things they find useless.  She's advancing the interests of people who tried to murder her and the person who has given her access to do Everything she has accomplished or gained.  

Jasnah is extremely intelligent and good and figuring out plots.  It seems unlikely in my view that Shallan could continue to hide that she was working with the Ghostbloods from Jasnah, especially since Wit definitely knows she is, and Wit is in a relationship with Jasnah. When she does find out Shallan has been lying and manipulating her and everyone else to continue following the Ghostbloods orders (regardless of the ending of RoW) Jasnah should be furious, and should never trust her again..  She has proven she is not trustworthy, period.  No rational person would look at the lies and manipulations Shallan has performed and say "well maybe they're an honest person now".

I'll even grant that at the end of RoW maybe Shallan made some huge breakthrough.  Maybe she will go straight to Jasnah and apologize and beg forgiveness.  If I was Jasnah I would thank her for the apology then banish her immediately from Alethkar and the Tower and tell her she's unwelcome in her lands or those of Dalinar.

If I was Navani and I found out Shallan was working with the people who tried (and very nearly did) murder my daughter, I would want her executed.

My assumption is.... Jasnah will not care enough about it and it will be done offscreen. Stormlight characters have veeery little consequences

Like did Kal ever reveal that he was considering killing Elhokar with Moash? He told them about Moash offscreen, but what exactly? Did they question him at all on how long he knew about moash's plan? Or did kal lie by omission? Nothing, we had our arc, forget about it now.

What about Dalinar and his truth about killing Evi to his sons? How did that actually go? The way Oathbringer ends, it almost looks like Adolin finds out at the same time as public, with the release of Dalinar's Oathbringer, which would be very bad. Anyway,  why not show us the scene? Instead we get a year gap, where they are comfortable enough around each other to joke. 

Brandon writes over the stickier situations a lot.