A third bond?

[DracostarA]

Following Tress, we have established terminology for two types of bond in the Cosmere:

1. Nahel Bond: Where there is an exchange in the Cognitive Realm
2. Luhel Bond: Where there is an exchange in the Physical Realm

Following Realmatic Theory, it would be likely that there is a third bond formed across the Spiritual Realm, though we have yet to get the terminology for that or see what that looks like...or have we?

I suspect the Aviar bond is a type of Spiritual Bond as:

• There is no Physical exchange between the Aviar and their partner
• The Aviar and partner both exist in the Physical Realm entirely (although one could argue that the bond increases the intelligence of the Aviar)

Hence we know there is some kind of bond between the Aviar and their partner, yet not one that seems to fit within the structure we have seen so far. I suspect it may be an example of a Spiritual Connection causing the yet unseen third type of bond, but I am willing to hear any arguments against this theory!

[lacrossedeamon]

By "partner" you mean the Aviar's owner and not the parasite, correct? Would the Aviar and the parasite be bonded as well, possibly via a Luhel bond?

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

I wonder if the knight/squire is this kind of relationship too. If the aviar have a luhel bond with their parasite and a spiritbond with their person that lets them grant that person powers, that seems comparable to a Knight getting their powers from a nahel bond with their spren and squires getting their powers from a bond with that knight

[Ashbringer he/him]

Aviar to Parasite definitely seems Luhel-bond-like. Person to Aviar could go either way, Dusk doesn't mention either possibility.

But my hunch is it's Nahel-like or Spiritual, not Luhel-like. Aviar do seem more intelligent than other birds, and stick around their bondee more often. That and the Aviar-detector device that The Ones Above created, which seemed to disturb every Aviar on the island. That seems to imply a more Cognitive or Spiritual effect is in play.

I do wonder if there's a Nahel/Luhel/Other connection with how magic systems are fueled. Luhel bonds draw Investiture straight from the Spiritual realm, while the Nahel bonds we've seen need a power source. Could you argue Allomancy is a Luhel bond with Preservation, trading metal for power...? It doesn't quite fit but it seems interesting. But other powers (AonDor) seemingly have nothing needed... maybe Sel is just an asterisk.

 

Other bonds: bonding a Seon, bonding a Lifeless, bonding/controlling koloss, Rosharan wildlife with symbiotic spren bonds (although that's probably Nahel)... the Ashyn disease magic as Luhel?

[lacrossedeamon]

I'm not sure using emotional allomancy to affect hemalurgic constructs would considered one of these bonds, bonding a seon is probably nahel (I see them as Selish spren), can Lifeless be bonded?, a sandmaster and the lichen is said to be a cognitive bond interestingly enough

[Ashbringer he/him]

Maybe not Lifeless, that's more about messing with Commands and it seems anyone who knows them can do so.

But the Hemalurgy weakness definitely makes some bond, as Vin and Elend don't need to actively break the koloss to control them, but just need to once, then can issue more Commands with weak Allomancy or mental commands. Maybe not a Nahel/Luhel/Spirituel bond, but some bond.

Sand Mastery would have to be... very strange to not be Luhel. The bond itself is Cognitive, because it's connecting the mind of the sand master to the sand lichen, and the sand master loses water (Physically) in order to make the sand do things. That's essentially identical to the Luhel bond with the Midnight Essence. Although it does seem like the Investiture comes from the lichen/sand and not entirely from the Spiritual Realm... and if the spores are sending water to feed the Moon Aethers, where is the water from Sand Mastery going?

 

Edit: Ooh, one more Bond. Nightblood. Not the whole eating-Investiture part, but the "test" he does and whether he makes people feel sick, and why Vasher doesn't.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Ashbringer

[Proletariat]

I mean, if it's spiritual, then it seems like it'd have to be a direct link to the Shards since those are the only beings that inhabit that space, right? So the relationship that Kandra, Heralds, Returned etc. have with their Shard feels like it would kind of fit the description.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 14.1.2023 at 7:41 AM, Ashbringer said:

I do wonder if there's a Nahel/Luhel/Other connection with how magic systems are fueled. Luhel bonds draw Investiture straight from the Spiritual realm, while the Nahel bonds we've seen need a power source.

No, it does not a power source. I am sorry, but that is just not right. Surgebinding needs a fuel source. But it does so even if the Fused do it.

But the Nahel bond itself does not. In fact that is the very point that told the Rosharans that Shardblades are not fabrials. You can summon and use them without Stormlight.

 

 

[Leuthie]

The word you're looking for is Connection. It's the Spiritual bond through which Investiture is exchanged.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Leuthie

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, it does not a power source. I am sorry, but that is just not right. Surgebinding needs a fuel source. But it does so even if the Fused do it.

But the Nahel bond itself does not. In fact that is the very point that told the Rosharans that Shardblades are not fabrials. You can summon and use them without Stormlight.

Shardblades aren’t necessarily confined to the Nahel bond, either. We don’t know how deadeye Blades work, and Honorblades aren’t sentient at all. Unless the Heralds had a Nahel Bond with Honor directly. And Fused can do limited Surgebinding without consuming their Voidlight.

But we do really only have one magic system as a sample size, true. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Shardblades aren’t necessarily confined to the Nahel bond, either. We don’t know how deadeye Blades work, and Honorblades aren’t sentient at all. Unless the Heralds had a Nahel Bond with Honor directly. And Fused can do limited Surgebinding without consuming their Voidlight.

But we do really only have one magic system as a sample size, true. 

Honorblades are sentient.

Spoiler

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Honorblades are sentient.

  Reveal hidden contents

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

 

... huh. TIL.

Wonder what Jezrien's thinks about everything...

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

... huh. TIL.

Wonder what Jezrien's thinks about everything...

Seems like it doesn't talk much... if at all? Maybe they only communicate to their specific Heralds and not other wielders.

[Little_Dagger she/her]

You forget the Zahel friendship bond - gets the owner access to a bunch color-related phrases they do understand and a pillow fight with Adolin's laundry.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Shardblades aren’t necessarily confined to the Nahel bond, either.

As weapons, no. If you want to summon them, they are. You need a bond for that. And it works completely without Stormlight.

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

We don’t know how deadeye Blades work, and Honorblades aren’t sentient at all. Unless the Heralds had a Nahel Bond with Honor directly.

Nevertheless the users of a Honorblade do have a bond with it. That is certain because Szeth was able to sever it and ceased to be a Surgebinder thereby. That was not merely the act of dropping it. Honorblades can be dismissed and summoned and the bearer remains a Surgebinder in either state.

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

And Fused can do limited Surgebinding without consuming their Voidlight.

Again, no. Heavenly Ones who are forced to use up their Voidlight for healing fall from the sky. They are using fuel. They are just so lucky that their supply is large enough to sustain continous ordinary use of their abilities.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

As weapons, no. If you want to summon them, they are. You need a bond for that. And it works completely without Stormlight.

I suppose I'm wondering if that still is a Nahel bond. Hoid says Nahel bonds are when the Invested entity gains a boost to their sapience in exchange for allowing access to Investiture, and most deadeye Shardblades don't seem to be getting that. Granted, Adolin and Maya definitely seem to be. But others don't, and there's still some oddities with Shardblade bonds needing an extra gemstone.

It probably still is a Nahel, and definitely doesn't seem like a Luhel, but there's weirdness there.

30 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Nevertheless the users of a Honorblade do have a bond with it. That is certain because Szeth was able to sever it and ceased to be a Surgebinder thereby. That was not merely the act of dropping it. Honorblades can be dismissed and summoned and the bearer remains a Surgebinder in either state.

I agree they do have a bond, it's just a question if it increases sapience for the blade. I thought Honorblades weren't sentient, and Frustration found a WoB that was otherwise.

36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Again, no. Heavenly Ones who are forced to use up their Voidlight for healing fall from the sky. They are using fuel. They are just so lucky that their supply is large enough to sustain continous ordinary use of their abilities.

They consume it to heal, and to use their Surge normally, but each brand of Fused has a passive effect they can do (seemingly) indefinitely. Heavenly Ones forced to heal end up grounded, but if they don't need to heal or Lash other things they can fly forever.

Spoiler

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

There's also a WoB about Fused not needing a bond, and just being able to use Voidlight from their nature as Cognitive Shadows, too... although again, I wonder if there's an argument for Cognitive Shadows to be bonded to the Shard that their Investiture is made of.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I suppose I'm wondering if that still is a Nahel bond. Hoid says Nahel bonds are when the Invested entity gains a boost to their sapience in exchange for allowing access to Investiture, and most deadeye Shardblades don't seem to be getting that.

They have suffered brain damage or its equivalent. This tells us very little of the capabilities of the bond.

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Granted, Adolin and Maya definitely seem to be. But others don't, and there's still some oddities with Shardblade bonds needing an extra gemstone.

Again, no. I am sorry, but a Knight Radiant can still summon his or her spren as a blade after having run out of Stormlight. We saw that with Kaladin and Sylphrena in Oathbringer.

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

It probably still is a Nahel, and definitely doesn't seem like a Luhel, but there's weirdness there.

I agree they do have a bond, it's just a question if it increases sapience for the blade. I thought Honorblades weren't sentient, and Frustration found a WoB that was otherwise.

Well, that a bond grants a certain capability, does not mean that it will ever be used by the bonded. My phone can transmit video if I call somebody. I rarely use that feature. Nevertheless, it is the same kind of connection whether I use it or not.

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

They consume it to heal, and to use their Surge normally, but each brand of Fused has a passive effect they can do (seemingly) indefinitely. Heavenly Ones forced to heal end up grounded, but if they don't need to heal or Lash other things they can fly forever.

That is just not true. Those of the Husk demonstrate that. So yes, they are very efficient with their Surge in general. But why does that tell us anything? A solar powered vehicle may be able to run forever. Nevertheless, it still needs power.

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

There's also a WoB about Fused not needing a bond, and just being able to use Voidlight from their nature as Cognitive Shadows, too... although again, I wonder if there's an argument for Cognitive Shadows to be bonded to the Shard that their Investiture is made of.

Threnody argues for the oposite.

[Ashbringer he/him]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They have suffered brain damage or its equivalent. This tells us very little of the capabilities of the bond.

Again, no. I am sorry, but a Knight Radiant can still summon his or her spren as a blade after having run out of Stormlight. We saw that with Kaladin and Sylphrena in Oathbringer.

Well, that a bond grants a certain capability, does not mean that it will ever be used by the bonded. My phone can transmit video if I call somebody. I rarely use that feature. Nevertheless, it is the same kind of connection whether I use it or not.

Yes, Radiant’s don’t need it, but neither do Shardbearers with deadeyes. And Hoid seemed to define a Nahel bond as one where the recipient gained sapience. If it no longer fits that definition, is it still a Nahel bond?

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is just not true. Those of the Husk demonstrate that. So yes, they are very efficient with their Surge in general. But why does that tell us anything? A solar powered vehicle may be able to run forever. Nevertheless, it still needs power.

… no?

“All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other.”

Assumedly, the Husked Ones’ active ability is the recreation of a new body. We didn’t see him do anything passively - it might be as simple as the Cognitive Realm peering that Jasnah and Venli can do. But the Heavenly Ones and Deepest Ones absolutely use Surgebinding passively.

[bmcclure7]

Perhaps this bond is connected to Avatars 

[Koloss17 She/They]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Perhaps this bond is connected to Avatars 

That is an interesting thought! One key thing to consider, however, is that there is a price to be paid for the bond. What price would that be?

 

Now here’s a thought, which is actually quite similar to yours. What if the vessel-shard bond is a spiritual bond? It is a contract, much like that of nahel bonds, yet it runs much deeper. It exacts the price of limiting actions of the bearer and eventually effecting their spiritual identity to be that of their own. It seems to be a fairly decent candidate.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

That is an interesting thought! One key thing to consider, however, is that there is a price to be paid for the bond. What price would that be?

 

Now here’s a thought, which is actually quite similar to yours. What if the vessel-shard bond is a spiritual bond? It is a contract, much like that of nahel bonds, yet it runs much deeper. It exacts the price of limiting actions of the bearer and eventually effecting their spiritual identity to be that of their own. It seems to be a fairly decent candidate.

1. An interesting thought something I didn't consider.

2. When I was thinking about it I figured Price would be yourself. As was talked about in lost metal, Avatars become The Shard, Obviously they retain some of themselfs, Yet at the same time they are no longer just themselves and definitely no longer the people they were. 

 

 

 They both could be potentially different forms of the same bond. In fact that if you look at the cost They do look similar. As the vessel also slowly Becomes The Shard. Until eventually the person is completely transformed by the intent. Becoming in part completely different person Even if they retain much of their former self. 

 

 Honestly if anyone's reading this it would be a great question to ask Brandon next live stream. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Elegy he/him]

Just a kinda spontaneous thought I had when thinking the same thing after that part - would carrying a Shard as a vessel or a Dawnshard also count as a form of a bond? They sure distort the person holding it on a spiritual level, so maybe that's the cost.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Elegy

[Isilel]

On 20.1.2023 at 2:06 AM, Ashbringer said:

 Unless the Heralds had a Nahel Bond with Honor directly.

Isn't it mentioned somewhere in SA that the Heralds had been fuelled by Honor directly in the past? Which would have required some kind of bond, but it doesn't quite fit the Nahel definition, since a Vesseled  Shard doesn't need a sapience boost.

 

On 20.1.2023 at 10:56 AM, Ashbringer said:

I suppose I'm wondering if that still is a Nahel bond. Hoid says Nahel bonds are when the Invested entity gains a boost to their sapience in exchange for allowing access to Investiture, and most deadeye Shardblades don't seem to be getting that.

 

But what about their screaming that can only be heard by the one they are bonded to when a Radiant touches them too? Sounds like an obstructed boost to sapience to me.

 

On 20.1.2023 at 10:56 AM, Ashbringer said:

There's also a WoB about Fused not needing a bond, and just being able to use Voidlight from their nature as Cognitive Shadows, too... although again, I wonder if there's an argument for Cognitive Shadows to be bonded to the Shard that their Investiture is made of.

An interesting question, to be sure. I mean they are part of a Shard in a sense, since their investiture is part of one. But there doesn't seem to be a reciprocal exchange.