The real reason Atium is powerful: bad writing

[NameIess]

46 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Your opponents can take twice as many hits as you, hit twice as often as you, effectively move twice as fast as you, and you can only hit one at once.

Fighting two people at once isn't twice as hard as fighting one person it's easily 4-8 times as hard.

Atium is more than a 4-8 times advantage.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Forgive me for being pedantic but that hardly counts as a duel.

So? He still won against two people in pretty much optimal conditions for them, with about even equipment. Your statement is useless anyways, because we are not talking about fighting a duel with Atium. We are talking about a fight, which is quite different.

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stepping back only gets you impaled on the other guys spear, same as to the sides.

So you step back while spinning, knocking the guy's spear aside and slitting his throat. If you want to know if Atium could get you out of a situation, think: Is there anything that a human body could do to avoid this attack, given you start moving several seconds before it begins? Not "Well, they already started stabbing, nothing I can do" but "Oh, they're going to stab me in 3 seconds. Allow me to move towards them as they do, nudging that spear to the side with my hand so it misses and tripping that guy so he runs into his friend, leaving me a perfect opening to stab this other guy in the chest."

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The books prove nothing if the argument is that the books are flawed.

Anything you describe can be done by a skilled fighter. Atium would add finesse, but it's not a super-weapon.

Atium does not simply add finesse. It adds the ability to see the future, and basically gives you maxed-out skill.

Stormlight spoilers

Spoiler

Did you have a problem with Ishar beating like 5 Windrunners at once? Yes, he has some physical enhancements, but they basically amount to slightly increased speed/strength and amazing reaction times. Atium users get the same level of perfect planning as he does, plus perfect futuresight.

Adolin beat like 20 guys at once, and at least at the beginning he was alone. Any person with his same physical traits, (not his skills) will be at least able replicate what he did, even if you don't give them 360 degree futuresight but only the perfect reactions, yes?

 

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Atium is more than a 4-8 times advantage.

That's not what the mere knowledge would get you.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

So you step back while spinning, knocking the guy's spear aside and slitting his throat. If you want to know if Atium could get you out of a situation, think: Is there anything that a human body could do to avoid this attack, given you start moving several seconds before it begins? Not "Well, they already started stabbing, nothing I can do" but "Oh, they're going to stab me in 3 seconds. Allow me to move towards them as they do, nudging that spear to the side with my hand so it misses and tripping that guy so he runs into his friend, leaving me a perfect opening to stab this other guy in the chest."

The spear will enter your chest long before you complete that spin.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Atium does not simply add finesse. It adds the ability to see the future, and basically gives you maxed-out skill.

And skill has very hard limits

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Stormlight spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Did you have a problem with Ishar beating like 5 Windrunners at once? Yes, he has some physical enhancements, but they basically amount to slightly increased speed/strength and amazing reaction times. Atium users get the same level of perfect planning as he does, plus perfect futuresight.

Adolin beat like 20 guys at once, and at least at the beginning he was alone. Any person with his same physical traits, (not his skills) will be at least able replicate what he did, even if you don't give them 360 degree futuresight but only the perfect reactions, yes?

 

SA

Spoiler

I fully expect Heralds to have supernatural enhancements, in speed and strength, otherwise yes there is a very big problem with that. And not just that Taln caught blowdarts, and Nale caught an arrow fired from a grandbow from only a few feet away. If they don't have magical enhancements that's just as bad as the Atium.

Are you referring to him fighting the Tuskari in Shadesmar? Because yes that fight was more Hollywood than reality.

 

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The spear will enter your chest long before you complete that spin.

No, because you have multiple seconds to spin. I don't know about you, but I was able to spin around in about 1-2 seconds.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And skill has very hard limits

Everything in fighting has hard limits. And futuresight plus the ability to perfectly abuse that futuresight has a very high limit.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I fully expect Heralds to have supernatural enhancements, in speed and strength, otherwise yes there is a very big problem with that. And not just that Taln caught blowdarts, and Nale caught an arrow fired from a grandbow from only a few feet away. If they don't have magical enhancements that's just as bad as the Atium.

Are you referring to him fighting the Tuskari in Shadesmar? Because yes that fight was more Hollywood than reality.

 

SA

Spoiler

Heralds are enhanced, yes. But they're not superman. Probably less than Captain America.

The Adolin fight may not have been completely realistic, but I think it did a pretty good job, in my fairly inexperienced mind, of showing what is humanly possible. Adolin didn't go in there and kill all twenty at once, he killed a few with surprise and shock, then they surrounded him and decided to play things carefully, and with Maya's help he managed to survive. With Atium, that initial assault would have killed everyone. Whatever they tried to do to get organized, he, or whoever the seer was, would be able to counter.

 

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Forgive me for being pedantic but that hardly counts as a duel.

Oh I knew you will say that. So what counts as a duel, in your opinion? A 30 min battle to death with blood and desperation like in every movie? HEMA experts are not good enough for you.

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Stepping back only gets you impaled on the other guys spear, same as to the sides.

But this one was not about fighting with multiple opponents. It is just 1vs1. 

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

But it's not the lead up to the fight. You can't foresee the fight and then choose the location.

It was not about location, it was about reading what your enemy whats you do to during a fight. Predicting where he wants you to be with his attacks. 

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The books prove nothing if the argument is that the books are flawed.

Anything you describe can be done by a skilled fighter. Atium would add finesse, but it's not a super-weapon.

Skilled fighter reads from movements of his enemy, Seer knows what he will do before he starts doing it. That's a difference, it's huge. That's a insta win for any skilled fighter. Skilled fighter doesn't need more strength, or to be faster, but increasing his ability to predict enemy moves, to the level of seeing future is a huge advantage. Predicting the enemy is more important than being stronger or faster.

 

Here is your problem. You create artificial scenarios when Seer is already in disadvantageous position or even in checkmate, just to prove your point, ignoring whole fight in the way. You constantly forgets that Seer sees the future few seconds in advance and can prepare for any attack, before it even begins, and want Seer to just "be impaled on the other guys spear". Fights don't last 30 min. You ignoring HEMA duel, the most accurate form of fighting we can use as an example, as for some reason you do not count it as a duel, and in the same time claim that "leaning more forward" in the middle of the strike is a viable fighting form. None of us has any experience in fighting, creating any fake scenarios or possible strikes is just bad on both side. Those who had some experience straight up said that predicting your enemy moves is more important than being faster or stronger. We gonna go around talking "and then he got speard" "no, he moves to side", "but there is a wall" etc - that's pointless. That proves nothing. Every single move and strike CAN be countered by proper defence, dodge, or attack. For some reason you think that a guy, that sees the future few seconds in advance, will just walk right into a sword. Just to remaind you, in few seconds whole fight can be over, as seen by HEMA, and in that time, both sides can make multiple strikes and moves. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Oh I knew you will say that. So what counts as a duel, in your opinion? A 30 min battle to death with blood and desperation like in every movie? HEMA experts are not good enough for you.

To the death, or at least done in a competition. The guy in the far right didn't give a dedicated attack until his partner had been eliminated.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Here is your problem. You create artificial scenarios when Seer is already in disadvantageous position or even in checkmate, just to prove your point, ignoring whole fight in the way. You constantly forgets that Seer sees the future few seconds in advance and can prepare for any attack, before it even begins, and want Seer to just "be impaled on the other guys spear". Fights don't last 30 min. You ignoring HEMA duel, the most accurate form of fighting we can use as an example, as for some reason you do not count it as a duel, and in the same time claim that "leaning more forward" in the middle of the strike is a viable fighting form. None of us has any experience in fighting, creating any fake scenarios or possible strikes is just bad on both side. Those who had some experience straight up said that predicting your enemy moves is more important than being faster or stronger. We gonna go around talking "and then he got speard" "no, he moves to side", "but there is a wall" etc - that's pointless. That proves nothing. Every single move and strike CAN be countered by proper defence, dodge, or attack. For some reason you think that a guy, that sees the future few seconds in advance, will just walk right into a sword. Just to remaind you, in few seconds whole fight can be over, as seen by HEMA, and in that time, both sides can make multiple strikes and moves. 

I am not saying it would be useless, I am saying that it is not an auto-win, or even an insurmountable advantage, any  slight difference will swing the pendulum back the other way. All else being equal but one guys has atium, sure he will win, but that's not what this thread is about. I am saying that Atium as presented in the books would not produce the effects shown. The books say if you are burning atium you are practically immortal  and there's nothing that can be done to you, but that is not what seeing 2-3 seconds into the future would do.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

No, because you have multiple seconds to spin. I don't know about you, but I was able to spin around in about 1-2 seconds.

And I was able to complete a spear-thrust in less than a second.

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But this one was not about fighting with multiple opponents. It is just 1vs1.

That was actually, I checked.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It was not about location, it was about reading what your enemy whats you do to during a fight. Predicting where he wants you to be with his attacks.

And if you get attacked indoors?

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

SA

  Reveal hidden contents

Heralds are enhanced, yes. But they're not superman. Probably less than Captain America.

The Adolin fight may not have been completely realistic, but I think it did a pretty good job, in my fairly inexperienced mind, of showing what is humanly possible. Adolin didn't go in there and kill all twenty at once, he killed a few with surprise and shock, then they surrounded him and decided to play things carefully, and with Maya's help he managed to survive. With Atium, that initial assault would have killed everyone. Whatever they tried to do to get organized, he, or whoever the seer was, would be able to counter.

 

SA

Spoiler

Let's say you're right about how enhanced the Heralds are, in that case all the examples listed are unrealistic, and far beyond their capabilities.

 

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And I was able to complete a spear-thrust in less than a second.

Seer has multiple seconds of warning. He starts moving before the opponent.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

SA

  Reveal hidden contents

Let's say you're right about how enhanced the Heralds are, in that case all the examples listed are unrealistic, and far beyond their capabilities.

 

SA

Spoiler

Has any human ever practiced fighting for a hundred years? With access to slightly better than peak human reflexes, senses, dexterity, and strength? Because the Heralds have centuries of combat experience minimum. 3,000 years of desolations, dozens of returns that could take upwards of decades. I think it's perfectly rational to assume less than supersoldier strength and reflexes, given the feats we've seen.

 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

To the death, or at least done in a competition. The guy in the far right didn't give a dedicated attack until his partner had been eliminated.

Both of the opponents got hit in abdomen - they are not able to fight any more. And the right guy did try to strike, but by that time the center guy was already out of range and defeated the left guy. How is that not a duel? It's a duel in all the ways. To death - good luck with that in these days.

Now give that guy Atium. He will win in most of the fights from video.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That was actually, I checked.

Oh right, my bad, that was completely valid "you can't dodge" just to force your opinion.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And if you get attacked indoors?

Than what? You do the same, predict where he wants you to be. He pushes you toward the table? Move bahind it. Pushes you toward a wall, move away. Pushes you toward rubish on ground - avoid. What is so hard about it when you see future?

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I am not saying it would be useless, I am saying that it is not an auto-win, or even an insurmountable advantage, any  slight difference will swing the pendulum back the other way. All else being equal but one guys has atium, sure he will win, but that's not what this thread is about. I am saying that Atium as presented in the books would not produce the effects shown. The books say if you are burning atium you are practically immortal  and there's nothing that can be done to you, but that is not what seeing 2-3 seconds into the future would do.

You ignore atium by saying "Stepping back only gets you impaled on the other guys spear, same as to the sides." like Seer would not see that coming. Every single time you write something like this, how the next strike would kill Seer, you ignore he have seen it with Atium already. You can't just say "and there is a spear". 

In any fight 1 on 1, Seer wins. There are extreme circumstances in which Seer can be checkmate, which won't just happen in any fight, and it would be almost impossible to make them in 1 on 1 fight or even 1 on 2. Every 1 on 2 or even 1 on 3 fight can be turned into small 1 on 1 fights by placing your opponents one behind another. It take just seconds to strike multiple blows and kill. In the very video I give you, the HEMA instructor told that increasing numbers of opponents doesn't increase their strength proportionally, as only 3 at most can fight at once with one guy. 3 seconds of future sight makes you see whole sequences of moves of every opponent you face, and shows you weak spots, places you can safly move, exposed area of enemy defence - you use that and in next few second half of those guy would be dead.

And in books HoA Seers were dying while fighting with Koloss having Atium. The book also shows us 2 dead mistborn who burned Atium when killed, Vin being struck multiple time while burning Atium, and shows you every weakness of Atium. The books disproves your claim that "The books say if you are burning atium you are practically immortal  and there's nothing that can be done to you".

Koloss are much bigger than humans, every fight with them is just series of short 1 on 1 fights as if there was more they would be interacting with each other, as they came from the same direction, against army of Seers in formation from the other side. 

[Frustration he/him]

The only way Atium would work the way you are implying is if it locked your oponents future so they couldn't react to your changes, but we've seen that's not the case. And any reaction splits shadows, meaning your plans don't matter.

54 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

.SA

  Hide contents

Has any human ever practiced fighting for a hundred years? With access to slightly better than peak human reflexes, senses, dexterity, and strength? Because the Heralds have centuries of combat experience minimum. 3,000 years of desolations, dozens of returns that could take upwards of decades. I think it's perfectly rational to assume less than supersoldier strength and reflexes, given the feats we've seen.

 

It's not a matter of training, neurons can only fire so fast, those are limitations of physics.

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The only way Atium would work the way you are implying is if it locked your oponents future so they couldn't react to your changes, but we've seen that's not the case. And any reaction splits shadows, meaning your plans don't matter.

No, we've seen one case where the reactions matter. Vin read Zane's movements with the specific intent of beating out his Atium, and managed to predict what he would do next. She didn't just react to what he was doing, which is what most people do.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It's not a matter of training, neurons can only fire so fast, those are limitations of physics.

Which is why

Spoiler

I said slightly enhanced.

 

[Werewolff Studios he/him]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:34 AM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Atium, as it's shown wouldn't actually be that useful in combat.

As shown in books Atium allows you to know what your opponent will do in the next few seconds and improves your mental ability in order to understand and make use of that information. Sounds great. The problem is that it doesn't increase physical abilities.

---

Now that's not to say Atium would be useless, but it would be more like instant skill rather than the autowin it is presented as. So the more skilled you are the less atium matters.

I'd like to confirm something regarding your stance towards Atium, if that's alright. Are you referring to Atium being less useful for a regular person in something like a street fight, that it should be less useful for Mistborn specifically, or that the mechanics themselves don't play out as described? 

[Treamayne]

TFE Ch 13

Spoiler

“All right,” Kelsier said, standing. “Burn it as soon as I start walking.”

Vin nodded. As he began to walk forward, she drew upon her new well of strength and burned atium.

Kelsier seemed to fuzz slightly to her eyes; then a translucent, wraithlike image shot out into the mists in front of him. The image looked just like Kelsier, and it walked just a few steps in front of him. A very faint, trailing after-image extended from the duplicate back to Kelsier himself.

It was like…a reverse shadow. The duplicate did everything Kelsier did—except, the image moved first. It turned, and then Kelsier followed its same path.

The image’s mouth began moving. A second later, Kelsier spoke. “Atium lets you see just a bit into the future. Or, at least, it lets you see what people are going to do a little bit in the future. In addition, it enhances your mind, allowing you to deal with the new information, allowing you to react more quickly and collectedly.”

The shadow stopped, then Kelsier walked up to it, stopping as well. Suddenly, the shadow reached out and slapped her, and Vin moved reflexively, putting her hand up just as Kelsier’s real hand began to move. She caught his arm midswing.

“While you’re burning atium,” he said, “nothing can surprise you. You can swing a dagger, knowing confidently that your enemies will run right into it. You can dodge attacks with ease because you’ll be able to see where every blow will fall. Atium makes you quite nearly invincible. It enhances your mind, making you able to make use of all the new information.”

Suddenly, dozens of other images shot from Kelsier’s body. Each one sprang in a different direction, some striding across the roof, others jumping into the air. Vin released his arm, rising and backing away in confusion.

“I just burned atium too,” Kelsier said. “I can see what you’re going to do, and that changes what I’m going to do—which in turn changes what you’re going to do. The images reflect each of the possible actions we might take.”

“It’s confusing,” Vin said, watching the insane jumble of images, old ones constantly fading, new ones constantly appearing.

Kelsier nodded. “The only way to defeat someone who is burning atium is to burn it yourself—that way, neither of you has an advantage.”

The images vanished.

“What did you do?” Vin asked with a start.

“Nothing,” Kelsier said. “Your atium probably ran out.”

Vin realized with surprise that he was right—the atium was gone. “It burns so quickly!”

Initial Explanation of Atium

• Note: it has been repeatedly said and shown that Era 1 metalborn have a flawed understanding of most metals - especially Atium. What is shown to happen should weigh more than what is said about it.

TFE Ch 14

Spoiler

She pulled out Kelsier’s vial and downed the atium, then burned it.

The Inquisitor’s shadow stepped around the side of the altar, then the actual Inquisitor followed a second later. The atium-shadow opened its hand, and a spray of tiny, translucent daggers shot at her.

Vin raised her book as the real daggers followed. She swung the book through the shadow trails just as the real daggers shot toward her. She caught every one, their sharp, jagged edges digging deeply into the book’s leather cover.

The Inquisitor paused, and she was rewarded by what seemed to be a look of confusion on its twisted face. Then a hundred shadow images shot from his body.

Lord Ruler! Vin thought. He had atium too.

Not pausing to worry about what that meant, Vin hopped over the altar, carrying the book with her as protection against further missiles. The Inquisitor spun, spike-eyes following her as she ducked back into the hallway.

A squad of soldiers stood waiting for her. However, each one bore a future-shadow. Vin ducked between them, barely watching where their weapons would fall, somehow avoiding the attacks of twelve different men. And, for a moment, she almost forgot the pain and fear—and they were replaced by an incredible sense of power. She dodged effortlessly, staves swinging above and beside her, each one missing by just inches. 

Vin using Atium to get passed the squad of soldiers inside Kredik Shaw.

• Note: the obvious near-zinc like emotional effect that is happening simultaneously with the increased mental acuity, mental speed and physical reflexes. BS has said a number of times that most metals (investiture) have req'd secondary effects that enable them to function (such as F-Iron)

TFE Ch 30

Spoiler

She’s just waiting for my atium to burn out. She wants me to run—she knows she can chase me down.

There was only one other option: attack.

Shan frowned in surprise as Vin dashed forward, phantom arrows snapping against the stones just before their real counterparts arrived. Vin dodged between two arrows—her atium-enhanced mind knowing exactly how to move—passing so close that she could feel the missiles in the air to either side of her.

Another example showing that reflexes move toward the level of "muscle memory" that can function without conscious control under the influence of Atium.

HoA Ch 60

Spoiler

Yomen didn’t respond.

“Admit it. I’m in no danger here.” She stepped forward.

And Yomen moved. His steps suddenly became more fluid—he didn’t have the grace of pewter or the knowledge of a warrior, but he moved just right. She dodged instinctively, but his atium let him anticipate her, and before she could so much as think, he’d thrown her to the floor, holding her pinned with a knee against her back.

“I may not kill you yet,” he said calmly, “but that hardly means that you’re in ‘no danger,’ Lady Venture.”

• Note: the obvious physical effect of Atium - described as "he didn’t have the grace of pewter or the knowledge of a warrior, but he moved just right"

My conclusion: The alloy known as Atium in Era 1 has an obvious mental, emotional, and physical effect (I would not be surprised to learn it also had addictive qualities) and that the temporal vision is a function of time, not speed (Inquisitor steelpushing the caltrops she sees the shadow even before the push because she saw them in the time needed to block with the book, Likewise with the arrows, she saw when they would affect her, regardless of status as fired or not.

This implies that the shadows show what will happen (not intentions, not decisions, etc.) - likely based on Fortune, and likely with an EPR (error probability ratio) somewhere > 75% likely - and only somebody with access to Fortune (such as burning Atium - or knowledge of how burning Atium affects the future) can change aspects of that future.

e. g. The arrow was where she dodged it, because the arrow was always going to be where she dodged it - not because a random guard decided to fire on a Mistborn standing on a roof (he was always going to fire at unknown people on the roof) - unless somebody with access to Fortune changed that aspect of the future and split the atium shadow to a new possibility

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The only way Atium would work the way you are implying is if it locked your oponents future so they couldn't react to your changes, but we've seen that's not the case. And any reaction splits shadows, meaning your plans don't matter.

No it's not. That's not how Atium works. Atium doesn't care about probabilities, Atium sees the future as it is. Reactions or decisions of your opponents doesn't change the future, they make that future to be realised. It's seeing the future. The only way that the shadows can be split is when your opponet aslo can see the future - which we see in the books. That's how Vin won with Zane. Your opponents reactions to your actions are predicted by the Atium shadow. Atium doesn't care about decision, the moment you made decisions of what you're going to do, Atium shadow shows what your enemy will do in reaction to that (or even before that decision is made, as Atium sees it already). No probabilities involved. Close future is indeed set in metal, Atium sees it. That's not quantum physics.

13 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It's not a matter of training, neurons can only fire so fast, those are limitations of physics.

Typically electrical signals inside the brain travel at no faster than 120m/s, which is still fast. But Pewter somehow makes your body much stronger, faster and durable than it's capable of. Atium increases your mental processing speed, so that number doesn't mater, as Atium makes it much greater. Your muscles will move instinctively to react to the future Atium is showing you, to make that future come to past.

 

Edit:
You could think of the near future as a quantum superposition of all possible actions and decisions that you can make. But in quantum physics just simple act of observing, collapses that wave function. Atium is that observing mechanism - it collapses superposition, leaving you with only one result - one shadow.

Edited December 13, 2022 by alder24

[therunner he/him]

47 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No it's not. That's not how Atium works. Atium doesn't care about probabilities, Atium sees the future as it is. Reactions or decisions of your opponents doesn't change the future, they make that future to be realised. It's seeing the future. The only way that the shadows can be split is when your opponet aslo can see the future - which we see in the books. That's how Vin won with Zane. Your opponents reactions to your actions are predicted by the Atium shadow. Atium doesn't care about decision, the moment you made decisions of what you're going to do, Atium shadow shows what your enemy will do in reaction to that (or even before that decision is made, as Atium sees it already). No probabilities involved. Close future is indeed set in metal, Atium sees it. That's not quantum physics.

Edit:
You could think of the near future as a quantum superposition of all possible actions and decisions that you can make. But in quantum physics just simple act of observing, collapses that wave function. Atium is that observing mechanism - it collapses superposition, leaving you with only one result - one shadow.

I have been kind-of following, however this is where I am confused.

1. We know that future in Cosmere is not set in stone, even Shards cannot see it definitely. So Atium cannot show you future with 100% probability of happening in principle.
   However, since per the quotes @Treamayne it shows only 1-2 seconds ahead, the future is nearly certain, unless someone else sees it.
2. But, Atium cannot include opponents reactions to your actions, otherwise Vin's trick would not work, all she did was react to Zane, so if Atium includes opponents reaction to Atium-burners actions, it should have shown him just one trajectory of hers.
3. If it cannot include reactions, then change in behavior due to Atium should cause unpredictable reactions semi-regularly.

Not sure how to reconcile points 2. and 3. , that is the moment were I get confused.

@Treamayne thanks for the quotes, put in one place like this they kind of make it seem like the Mistborn/Misting is puppeted around by the Atium, where the reflexes are timed just right, without conscious decision on the part of the person burning.
Plus it clarifies that it is sort-of-like seeing an interval of time, not just a present moment, but full interval of 1-2 seconds in a certain radius.
 

Edited December 13, 2022 by therunner

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

We know that future in Cosmere is not set in stone, even Shards cannot see it definitely. So Atium cannot show you future with 100% probability of happening in principle.
However, since per the quotes @Treamayne it shows only 1-2 seconds ahead, the future is nearly certain, unless someone else sees it.

Yes, that's how I uderstand it. 

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

But, Atium cannot include opponents reactions to your actions, otherwise Vin's trick would not work, all she did was react to Zane, so if Atium includes opponents reaction to Atium-burners actions, it should have shown him just one trajectory of hers.

That's not it. She didn't simply react to Zane, that what she was doing throughout all of the fight previously, which Zane countered easily. What she did, was to look at Zane (without thinking about doing that), to see where he sees her shadow - she basically reacted to Zane's Atium shadow of herself, therefore she saw her own future, which splits the shadow for Zane.

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

If it cannot include reactions, then change in behavior due to Atium should cause unpredictable reactions semi-regularly.

Yes, this is confusing. Messing with time messes with brain. I would say there are two options on what Atium is showing, First is that the shadow is just changing when you decide what you gonna do, predicting what your opponent reaction to that move will be - but you can understand it as Atium drastically enhances your processing spead, and you still see it early enough to to make proper corrections. Second, the Atium already includes reactions to your move - which make both your and your opponent close future set in stone.

[Treamayne]

I think that splitting the Shadow without your own access to Atium (via reaction) requires both knowledge and intent. Similar to how Wax didn't sense the coppermind medallion until he both knew it was a medallion and intended to sense and access it. Also how Wayne didn't sense stores in the Bands when he first "traded" for it because he didn't realize the spearhead was the Bands and had no intent to sense or access their power (whereas Marasi "realized" what they were - supplying knowledge - then formed the intent to use that information to acces the Bands). 

In Vin's fight with Zane she had to:

• Know that Atium was in use to change Fortune
• Know that using information from Shadows allows somebody to change those action(s)
• Intend to react only to what she learned by Zane's access to Fortune
  • Not reacting to his movements per se - but how his movements indicated the information gleaned from the Atium

 

[therunner he/him]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That's not it. She didn't simply react to Zane, that what she was doing throughout all of the fight previously, which Zane countered easily. What she did, was to look at Zane (without thinking about doing that), to see where he sees her shadow - she basically reacted to Zane's Atium shadow of herself, therefore she saw her own future, which splits the shadow for Zane.

But she only reacted to Zane, well, to Zane's reaction to her Atium shadow, but it was still Zane she reacted to.
And I would say that thinking or not about it should not make a difference, if Atium shows future, because it does not matter what she is thinking in the moment, what matters what she will be thinking that 1 or 2 seconds in the future.

Atium-burners react to Atium shadows all the time, and yet other's don't split their shadows when reacting to them.

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think that splitting the Shadow without your own access to Atium (via reaction) requires both knowledge and intent. Similar to how Wax didn't sense the coppermind medallion until he both knew it was a medallion and intended to sense and access it. Also how Wayne didn't sense stores in the Bands when he first "traded" for it because he didn't realize the spearhead was the Bands and had no intent to sense or access their power (whereas Marasi "realized" what they were - supplying knowledge - then formed the intent to use that information to acces the Bands). 

In Vin's fight with Zane she had to:

• Know that Atium was in use to change Fortune
• Know that using information from Shadows allows somebody to change those action(s)
• Intend to react only to what she learned by Zane's access to Fortune
  • Not reacting to his movements per se - but how his movements indicated the information gleaned from the Atium

 

That Intent part would kind-of patch it for me, Intent and perception can change stuff (i.e. Wax splitting bullet into 3 lines).

But again (referring to part I bolded), Atium-burners movements provide that information all the time as they react to shadows all the time, and yet this was the only instance of atium shadow splitting we know of.

[Treamayne]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

But again (referring to part I bolded), Atium-burners movements provide that information all the time as they react to shadows all the time, and yet this was the only instance of atium shadow splitting we know of.

Exacty, which is why I believe you have to both know that Atium is affecting Fortune (even if not in those terms - Atium is allowing you to change the immediate future) and Intend to use the information you glean to do the same - adjust the immediate future. . . 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[therunner he/him]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Exacty, which is why I beleive you have to both know that Atium is affecting Fortune (even if not in those terms - Atium is allowing you to change the immediate future) and Intend to use the information you glean to do the same - adjust the immediate future. . . 

Yeah, I agree with the Intent being necessary.
I think I misunderstood what you were saying by that part, sorry about that.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, therunner said:

But she only reacted to Zane, well, to Zane's reaction to her Atium shadow, but it was still Zane she reacted to.

She did react to where Zane will be in the future, not now, revealing where she will be in the future. She didn't react to Zane moves, but she used that moves to know where he saw her shadow, where he saw her future. 

 

The Intent does fix all the confusion nicely. 

[StanLemon]

This scene was our first look into the fact that future sight isn't infallible in the Cosmere and while it might be right most of the time, even the most reliable visions of the future can be flawed and exploited. Personally I feel this scene is a good set of world building for the Cosmere as a whole

[Tglassy]

Without direct quotes:

Atium seems to ONLY show a split shadow when the other person knows the future as well, because knowing the future changes it.  The person BURNING Atium doesn't see what his changes will do as splits.  He only sees what everyone else WILL do if he does nothing.  

When someone else can see the future, they both see split Atium shadows, because everyone can see the future, so everyone can change it.  I would imagine that fighting with both people burning Atium would be absolutely impossible, though that's not how it is percieved in the books.  Apparently, the extra mental accuity that Atium provides shuts itself off from the overload of information when two people are burning it.  

What Vin did was, literally, to see the future.  She saw her future when the looked at Zane.  She saw what she was going to do in his reaction.  She correctly realized what his moements meant she was going to do.  So she did something different. 

She saw the future, and then changed it.  And it created a split Atium Shadow.  The exact same way it would have if she'd have burned Atiuim.  But it would not have been possible if she had not seen the future through Zane's actions.  She would have just followed the same Atium shadow without knowing it.

 

And about the Heralds, I want you to go stand in a room and let me shoot blow gun darts at you all day, and let's see how many of them you actually catch.  Pretty sure the answer will be literally 0, because I don't think it is literally possible to catch a dart from a blow gun.  Same way it is literally impossible to catch an arrow.  Mythbusters proved it.  Literaly impossible.  Even if you got your hand in the exact right spot to do it, and gripped fast enough, the arrow would rip through the skin of your hand.  It's just moving too fast.  The Heralds have some insane enhanced abilities if they're able to do things like that.   

[IlstrawberrySeed]

WoK

Spoiler

Their healing can prevent the ripping - creating an infinite resistance field.

Edited December 14, 2022 by IlstrawberrySeed

[Treamayne]

18 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Spoiler

And about the Heralds, I want you to go stand in a room and let me shoot blow gun darts at you all day, and let's see how many of them you actually catch.  Pretty sure the answer will be literally 0, because I don't think it is literally possible to catch a dart from a blow gun.  Same way it is literally impossible to catch an arrow.  Mythbusters proved it.  Literaly impossible.  Even if you got your hand in the exact right spot to do it, and gripped fast enough, the arrow would rip through the skin of your hand.  It's just moving too fast.  The Heralds have some insane enhanced abilities if they're able to do things like that.  

 

32 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Spoiler

Their healing can prevent the ripping - creating an infinite resistance field.

 

Since this is the Mistborn forum, please don't forget to spoiler tag references to things from other series. . . 

 

[Tglassy]

5 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

WoK

  Hide contents

Their healing can prevent the ripping - creating an infinite resistance field.

Spoiler

Even so, the reaction time needed to grab an arrow, or dart, in flight is insane.  It is literally not possible for a human to do it, despite the movies.  The point about it ripping your skin is if you SOMEHOW managed to clinch your hand at the exact right time, which would require the arrowhead itself ripping the skin as it went through (because of how close your hand would need to be to a fist in order to close around the shaft), the wood would just rip through your skin.  And even if the Haralds had infinite healing, that wouldn't solve the problem.  Healing HEALS damage, it doesn't prevent it, and Haralds are not invincible.  

In other words, Haralds have supernatural strength and reflexes to the point where they can catch a projectile going so fast you can't really see it moving.  

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Spoiler

They only need supernatural speed/reflexes, not strength, because of healing. That was my point.