The real reason Atium is powerful: bad writing

[alder24]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, Atium shows what the seers opponent plans to do. Not what they will do assuming the seer reacts to it, otherwise it's going to be constantly fluctuating. 

Atium shows few seconds into the future, if atium would show only plans, then the shadows would constatnly split after Seer makes his move, as every move Seer does, the plans will change. It doen't. Atium have to take reactions of opponent base on Seer action (base on the shadow he sees) into account, as it shows you few seconds into future, not just one action. Otherwise the shadow would always be splitting, and Atium would have no use. The moment you she what action shadow will do, you know what you will do to him, and shadow then shows you how your opponent will react to this very action you will do, and how you counter that, and how he counter that - etc. 

EVERY action Seer's opponent does is base od what Seer is doing. That's how fighting works. But his opponent doesn't look at Seer's action to see where he himself will be in the future, but how he needs to react to what Seer is doing.  Seer moves in just right time, to counter what his opponent is doing. He knows how far back he need to step, knows how strong or where he needs to strike, he knows what moves he need to do. 

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You can back away easier when burning pewter, so if we assume one person got hit you have to assume they both did, in which case the pewterarm has the high chance of survival.

Atium gives you few more seconds for your reaction, pewter doen't. Once again, if Thug got stabbed in heart or decapitated, will he be ok? I want te remind you, that it took Vin 2 weeks to wake up and 3 months to recover after her little talk with inquisitor in TLE. While burning pewter. Pewter is not a goldmind.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Look, you thrust forward. According to the books the seer simply leans back until the blade won't hit them. Not steps back, leans.

You can lean forward further than you can back, ergo just lean forward more, and they will fall down before you do.

You can't! I gave you the description of how that "leaning forward" would look like. With what momentum will you do it? With what force? Leaning forward pushes your center of mass away from your feet, and then you simply fall on your face. You can't just lean forward in the culmination of your strike, when your force and momentum are at maximum, and they're starting to decrease from this point on. If you do, your stike would have no force behind it, you would lose the balance, fall on your face and get stabbed in the back.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They reacted to people backing away why not to them leaning back?

Because to dogde you back away, not lean back, that's how you awoid being hit and maintain your balance.

15 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

In WoA Vin thrusts at Zane, and he LEANS back to dodge it. He doesn't step, he leans. To counter this all you have to do is keep learning forward, leaning back will cause you to tip faster than leaning forward.

He burns Atium, he know that's enough. VIn can't lean forward, and if she tried to, he would've seen it and react either diffrently in the first place (step back not lean), or do 100 different moves that he can using Atium. He SEES the future.

Zane striked turned his blade into her shadow on the very last moment, and Vin with cleared mind, without thinking of what she wants to do, and what she will do, and she was able to catch that little movement, and she saw her future with this, splitting the shadow. He moved split second before Vin even think of her action, showing her where she will be, thus showing her where he will attack.  

 

And thank you @Treamayne for providing all the quotes and examples from the books, with the very Zane vs Vin moment that is talked about, plus with fight between pewter burner and Seer with no fight experience. It's proves everything.

 

I was going to ask who will live further in a duel with skilled fighter - a thug with no fighting experience, or a seer with no fighting experience. And this question was already answered by the quotes provided. It doen't matter for a thug that he's stronger and faster when he can't use it, he doesn't know what to do, and even how to properly strike - for a skilled fighter it would be like toying with a kid, and he would chop him to pieces. It makes all difference for seer as he can see few seconds in advance - that's few movements ahead - and he have time to reacts to fighter, as he knows what he wll need to do. He would be able to avoid every strike and be out of range, and even hit his opponent, and for that skilled fighter it would be so confusing as he clearly see that Seer has no skill in fighting, but somehow he avoids everything - just like Eland vs Yomen in quote above.

 

@Tglassy explanation of how Atium works is better than mine. Either Atium shadows changes base on your action, but you can understand and predict that, or Atium shadows already take into account your future action, and your enemy reaction to that, making shadows unchangeable, which also takes away your choices, as you will always do the very thing Atium shadows already reacted to.

[Frustration he/him]

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

So...you can sit here and spout "It's just bad writing" all you want...or you can stop being a troll and just suspend your disbelief for a series about people who swallow metal and gain mystical powers from it.  

You understand what's wrong with this sentence right?

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

ure, Zane 'leaned' back, because he had pewter, and his balance was impecable, and he could do Neo Matrix crap. 

His balance is better, but his spine isn't any more flexible.

12 hours ago, Tglassy said:

What happened with Zane is that Vin, at the last moment, had two directions she could go that were equally plausible. It was a litteral coin flip.  She only won because she happened to decide to use the one he didn't block.

No, he moved to block and she changed direction. It wasn't a coin flip he got outmaneuvered. Which is a completely unrealistic moment unto itself, but that's how it was described.

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Atium gives you few more seconds for your reaction, pewter doen't. Once again, if Thug got stabbed in heart or decapitated, will he be ok? I want te remind you, that it took Vin 2 weeks to wake up and 3 months to recover after her little talk with inquisitor in TLE. While burning pewter. Pewter is not a goldmind.

If a seer got stabbed in the heart of decapitated would he be okay? No. If a seer got hit with that axe that Vin did would they have lived? No.

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I was going to ask who will live further in a duel with skilled fighter - a thug with no fighting experience, or a seer with no fighting experience. And this question was already answered by the quotes provided. It doen't matter for a thug that he's stronger and faster when he can't use it, he doesn't know what to do, and even how to properly strike - for a skilled fighter it would be like toying with a kid, and he would chop him to pieces. It makes all difference for seer as he can see few seconds in advance - that's few movements ahead - and he have time to reacts to fighter, as he knows what he wll need to do. He would be able to avoid every strike and be out of range, and even hit his opponent, and for that skilled fighter it would be so confusing as he clearly see that Seer has no skill in fighting, but somehow he avoids everything - just like Eland vs Yomen in quote above.

But how? I'm not asking how the book describes it I'm saying that reality doesn't work this way.

For an example imagine jump rope if you will, you can tell when to jump, but you can't always do it. There are simple limits to the human body that can't be overcome. If the rope is going fast enough that you land and can't jump again before it comes around you get hit. If you are too tired to jump you get hit. It doesn't matter if you know what to do if you don't have the ability to do it.

[NameIess]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

His balance is better, but his spine isn't any more flexible.

So? By the time Vin realizes he's dodged, the knife's already stopped. You want her to slowly lean forward and press it against his chest? Or do you want her to react mid-stab and throw herself forward, in which case Zane could just grab her arm and throw her to the ground or something.

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If a seer got stabbed in the heart of decapitated would he be okay? No. If a seer got hit with that axe that Vin did would they have lived? No.

Well, yeah, but a seer's ability to not get stabbed in the heart/decapitated/hit with that axe that Vin did is a lot better than the pewterarm's ability to survive those hits.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

For an example imagine jump rope if you will, you can tell when to jump, but you can't always do it. There are simple limits to the human body that can't be overcome. If the rope is going fast enough that you land and can't jump again before it comes around you get hit. If you are too tired to jump you get hit. It doesn't matter if you know what to do if you don't have the ability to do it.

Those situations where it is literally impossible to avoid a lethal hit are extremely difficult to produce when someone has several seconds in advance to avoid them. Yes, exhaustion will be a factor eventually, and a steelrunner will be able to move so fast that it doesn't matter what the seer does, but outside of that making a no-win situation will be nigh impossible. You're not just going up against someone with the ability to see your next move, you're up against someone with the ability to see your next move and the analytical skill to figure out the perfect reaction to it instantly. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Well, yeah, but a seer's ability to not get stabbed in the heart/decapitated/hit with that axe that Vin did is a lot better than the pewterarm's ability to survive those hits.

So it says, but I doubt the mechanics.

1 minute ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Those situations where it is literally impossible to avoid a lethal hit are extremely difficult to produce when someone has several seconds in advance to avoid them. Yes, exhaustion will be a factor eventually, and a steelrunner will be able to move so fast that it doesn't matter what the seer does, but outside of that making a no-win situation will be nigh impossible. You're not just going up against someone with the ability to see your next move, you're up against someone with the ability to see your next move and the analytical skill to figure out the perfect reaction to it instantly. 

My issue isn't with knowledge but with ability. The perfect move might be to raise your sword to block this incoming strike, as otherwise you get hit, but if there's too much force and it breaks through your guard then what do you do?

Or if two attacks are coming at once because you are fighting multiple people, you are only fast enough to block one, now what?

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So it says, but I doubt the mechanics.

Atium in the books has been shown to be better than Pewter. Whether or not you think that is bad writing, it is the reality.

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

My issue isn't with knowledge but with ability. The perfect move might be to raise your sword to block this incoming strike, as otherwise you get hit, but if there's too much force and it breaks through your guard then what do you do?

The perfect move isn't to block it then. It would to dodge or deflect it.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Or if two attacks are coming at once because you are fighting multiple people, you are only fast enough to block one, now what?

How would you get into that situation while burning Atium? A situation where dodging or blocking all of the attacks coming for you is physically impossible, I mean. Sure, if you wait until you're surrounded and have multiple attacks coming towards you from all sides to burn Atium you'll be in trouble, but if you're actually burning Atium, you'd likely just kill one or both attackers before they can get to you.

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Atium in the books has been shown to be better than Pewter. Whether or not you think that is bad writing, it is the reality.

Oh, hey this is a thread about why that's bad writing.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

The perfect move isn't to block it then. It would to dodge or deflect it.

If you can't block it how do you deflect it?

And with pewter by the time you back up another strike is coming. And then you're locked into retreating, unable to make headway.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

How would you get into that situation while burning Atium? A situation where dodging or blocking all of the attacks coming for you is physically impossible, I mean. Sure, if you wait until you're surrounded and have multiple attacks coming towards you from all sides to burn Atium you'll be in trouble, but if you're actually burning Atium, you'd likely just kill one or both attackers before they can get to you.

You get into those situations when on patrol and Cett sends a group of allomancers for you, or when you charge an army of Koloss, or try to break into Kredik Shaw, or rescue Elendel from a group of allomancers intent on killing him.

That was more than I thought.

[NameIess]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If you can't block it how do you deflect it?

By... deflecting it? The whole point of deflecting rather than blocking is that it requires less strength. You're not stopping their sword, just changing its trajectory.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And with pewter by the time you back up another strike is coming. And then you're locked into retreating, unable to make headway.

No, you're not locked into retreating. You can see your opponent's every mistake before it happens, exploit every single opportunity they give you.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You get into those situations when on patrol and Cett sends a group of allomancers for you, or when you charge an army of Koloss, or try to break into Kredik Shaw, or rescue Elendel from a group of allomancers intent on killing him.

Well, in all of those cases besides the Koloss army we're talking about Mistborn with Pewter, who have a fair few more options to counter two attacks at once. And in the case of the Koloss, some of them did die, and they were fighting in an organized unit, not surrounded by enemies.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Ookla the Untitled

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If a seer got stabbed in the heart of decapitated would he be okay? No. If a seer got hit with that axe that Vin did would they have lived? No.

The Seer sees it comming before his opponent even starts moving, he can prevent it from happening. We have in book prove of it, quoted here. Thug can't do that.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, he moved to block and she changed direction. It wasn't a coin flip he got outmaneuvered. Which is a completely unrealistic moment unto itself, but that's how it was described.

"Her atium shadow had split at the last moment. Two shadows, two possibilities. He’d counteracted the wrong one. She’d tricked him, defeated him somehow. And now he was dying." he chose wrong one.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

But how? I'm not asking how the book describes it I'm saying that reality doesn't work this way.

In reality you don't have future vision or powder increasing your strength and durability. We're talking how it works in the world where those things exists. And we have in book prove that even untrained guy with Atium, can win a fight against skilled pewter burning fighter. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

For an example imagine jump rope if you will, you can tell when to jump, but you can't always do it. There are simple limits to the human body that can't be overcome. If the rope is going fast enough that you land and can't jump again before it comes around you get hit. If you are too tired to jump you get hit. It doesn't matter if you know what to do if you don't have the ability to do it.

You see a shadow FEW seconds before enemy even makes that move! SECONDS. Do you know how much time this is in fights? There is no human limits needed to be overcome, Seer can just simply step back before anything ever happens, move to the side. This is a lot of time.

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

My issue isn't with knowledge but with ability. The perfect move might be to raise your sword to block this incoming strike, as otherwise you get hit, but if there's too much force and it breaks through your guard then what do you do?

The perfect move is to MOVE! Not block, but move away.

28 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Or if two attacks are coming at once because you are fighting multiple people, you are only fast enough to block one, now what?

You can do multiple things at once. Block and move, move and deflect, deflect and deflect, strike and move. Seer sees it before they even make a move. He just won't put himself in that situation.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If you can't block it how do you deflect it?

Simply by pushing sword with bare hand, or your blade, just slight touch and it's missing.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And with pewter by the time you back up another strike is coming. And then you're locked into retreating, unable to make headway.

No, Atium sees long time before he makes move...  Like we see in the book.

 

Seeing few seconds into the fight is huge, you know what your enemy will do, and what he do after that, you know how to move, how to strike, when he exposes himself. You kniw how the fight will progress before enemy makes his move. 

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, Atium sees long time before he makes move...  Like we see in the book.

So if they see you move they will act on you moving rather than their initial attack, ruining your Atium shadows.

And the entire premise of the thread is that the books described mechanics should not lead to it's described outcomes.

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The perfect move is to MOVE! Not block, but move away.

And if you're inside and against a wall?

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You can do multiple things at once. Block and move, move and deflect, deflect and deflect, strike and move. Seer sees it before they even make a move. He just won't put himself in that situation.

Have you ever tried to get out of being surrounded without getting hit? One on either side is more than enough. It's just not possible given human abilities.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And if you're inside and against a wall?

That situation has literally never happened in the books.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Have you ever tried to get out of being surrounded without getting hit? One on either side is more than enough. It's just not possible given human abilities.

Again, never happened in the books. And also Atium give 360 degree vision.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

That situation has literally never happened in the books.

Vin hiding from the Inquisitor in Kredik Shaw.

1 minute ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Again, never happened in the books. 

But that doesn't mean that a 2v1 wouldn't work.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

And also Atium give 360 degree vision.

You can block one strike, and dodging isn't an option. How do you avoid being hit?

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So if they see you move they will act on you moving rather than their initial attack, ruining your Atium shadows.

And the entire premise of the thread is that the books described mechanics should not lead to it's described outcomes.

Or, hear me out, moving when you know he won't be able to stop or change his action, still far in advance so you won't get hit?

Which I disagree, as seeing into the future is extremely huge deal in fights.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And if you're inside and against a wall?

Move left and right? Cut distance and force him to step back? Attack? Or don't go inside in a first place.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Have you ever tried to get out of being surrounded without getting hit? One on either side is more than enough. It's just not possible given human abilities.

When there are 2 opponents, Seer still can easily outmanoeuvre them, as he literarily can see attack coming from behind. With more, there is a limit of how many people can be around you, and how many can strike at you, without interfering with each other. I would say 4 is a limit. Difficult for Seer, but he can use their numbers against them, and make them interrupt each other. But with multiple enemies, Seer is more likely to die. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You can block one strike, and dodging isn't an option. How do you avoid being hit?

Why dodging isn't an option? What is that? Dodging is always an option. You can't just denay fundamental move in a fight, just because. You can also, use your other hand to deflect the blade.

Edit - or fake an atack or move in other direction. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by alder24

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Vin hiding from the Inquisitor in Kredik Shaw.

Back against a wall, no way to block an attack? That exact situation happened?

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

But that doesn't mean that a 2v1 wouldn't work.

It kinda does. Unless you get the seer in a no-win situation, they will kill you extremely quickly.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You can block one strike, and dodging isn't an option. How do you avoid being hit?

In the situation that it is literally impossible to block, dodge, or prevent all of the blows hitting you, then you die. However, I think you underestimate exactly how hard such a situation is to create.

[Treamayne]

WoA Ch 4

Spoiler

“Ham,” she said, “I need to find a way to fight against someone who is burning atium. Tell me that you know a way.”

Ham shrugged in the darkness. “There are lots of theories, Vin. I once had a long conversation with Breeze about this—though he spent most of it grumbling that I was annoying him.”

“Well?” Vin asked. “What can I do?”

He rubbed his chin. “Most people agree that the best way to kill a Mistborn with atium is to surprise them.”

“That doesn’t help if they attack me first,” Vin said.

“Well,” Ham said. “Barring surprise, there isn’t much. Some people think that you might be able to kill an atium-using Mistborn if you catch them in an unavoidable situation. It’s like a game of fets—sometimes, the only way to take a piece is to corner it so that no matter which way it moves, it dies.

“Doing that to a Mistborn is pretty tough, though. The thing is, atium lets the Mistborn see the future—so he knows when a move will trap him, and so he can avoid the situation. The metal is supposed to enhance his mind somehow, too.”

“It does. When I’m burning atium, I often dodge before I even register the attacks that are coming.”

Ham nodded.

“So,” Vin said, “what else?”

“That’s it, Vin,” Ham said. “Thugs talk about this topic a lot—we’re all afraid of going up against a Mistborn. Those are your two options: Surprise him or overwhelm him. I’m sorry.”

Vin frowned. 

Vin discusses Thugs vs Atium with Ham

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Why dodging isn't an option? What is that? Dodging is always an option. You can't just denay fundamental move in a fight, just because. You can also, use your other hand to deflect the blade.

Because they can step to the side just as easily as you can, and they have cut off escape to the front and back. And how would you deflect a blow coming from behind? Your arm can only go back so far.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Back against a wall, no way to block an attack? That exact situation happened?

Backed against a wall, and unable to out muscle an inquisitor, yes I do believe that occurred. I also believe the only reason she survived was that they needed her alive to remove her father from his position.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

It kinda does. Unless you get the seer in a no-win situation, they will kill you extremely quickly.

Hey, 2 vs 1. Something that is just about impossible to win.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

In the situation that it is literally impossible to block, dodge, or prevent all of the blows hitting you, then you die. However, I think you underestimate exactly how hard such a situation is to create.

So far as I know no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel. So that's just about impossible.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Because they can step to the side just as easily as you can, and they have cut off escape to the front and back. And how would you deflect a blow coming from behind? Your arm can only go back so far.

When they start striking, they can't move as easily as you, as they have to follow the momentum of an blade. And just turning sideways  allows you to deflect, or turning around after first block.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Backed against a wall, and unable to out muscle an inquisitor, yes I do believe that occurred. I also believe the only reason she survived was that they needed her alive to remove her father from his position.

I don't think so. In first palace intrusion? Vin was cut with an axe while running along the corridor, from second inquisitor that waited behind a bend. She didn't even see him.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Hey, 2 vs 1. Something that is just about impossible to win.

No it isn't. Seer controles the situation. He moves where he needs to be safe, he make sure that no one is behind him, he stikes in first openings he sees. They're dead.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So far as I know no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel. So that's just about impossible.

And you know it from what credible source? Because knight with full plate armor is invincible and can easily win against 2 opponents. But wait, we're talking about a guy THAT CAN SEE FUTURE!

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Backed against a wall, and unable to out muscle an inquisitor, yes I do believe that occurred. I also believe the only reason she survived was that they needed her alive to remove her father from his position.

So we don't see Atium used to win in that situation? Then why are you bringing that situation up?

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Hey, 2 vs 1. Something that is just about impossible to win.

No, I mean a literal no-win situation. As in one where no course of action will allow one to survive.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So far as I know no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel. So that's just about impossible.

Duels are not fights. 

[alder24]

53 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So far as I know no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel. So that's just about impossible.

And just to prove you wrong, a little search on YT and here it is, a duel where one guy with two sabres facing two opponents, won by that one guy. 4 seconds long. Most or all of that duel would be seen by Seer before it even began.

Spoiler

 

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

When they start striking, they can't move as easily as you, as they have to follow the momentum of an blade. And just turning sideways  allows you to deflect, or turning around after first block.

The time between the start of the thrust and the finish doesn't give you the opportunity to get out of the way.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No it isn't. Seer controles the situation. He moves where he needs to be safe, he make sure that no one is behind him, he stikes in first openings he sees. They're dead.

And you know it from what credible source? Because knight with full plate armor is invincible and can easily win against 2 opponents. But wait, we're talking about a guy THAT CAN SEE FUTURE!

Anyone can win any fight if you give them enough of an advantage. That's why I specified duels, as in both sides having the same equipment.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

No, I mean a literal no-win situation. As in one where no course of action will allow one to survive.

Unnecessary, you only need it to where someone of the Seers physical abilities can't survive.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And just to prove you wrong, a little search on YT and here it is, a duel where one guy with two sabres facing two opponents, won by that one guy. 4 seconds long. Most or all of that duel would be seen by Seer before it even began.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Who are these people?

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Unnecessary, you only need it to where someone of the Seers physical abilities can't survive.

Where no course of action would allow someone of the Seer's physical abilities to survive. Two on one is nothing.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Untitled said:

Where no course of action would allow someone of the Seer's physical abilities to survive. Two on one is nothing.

Your opponents can take twice as many hits as you, hit twice as often as you, effectively move twice as fast as you, and you can only hit one at once.

Fighting two people at once isn't twice as hard as fighting one person it's easily 4-8 times as hard.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The time between the start of the thrust and the finish doesn't give you the opportunity to get out of the way.

But the Seer saw that thrust seconds before it came, and can move out of its way in less than a second. He can time up that dogde to start moving when he starts thrusting. 

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Anyone can win any fight if you give them enough of an advantage. That's why I specified duels, as in both sides having the same equipment.

Duel don't have to involve same equipment. There can be duels when one side has some advantage, or different weapons. 

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Unnecessary, you only need it to where someone of the Seers physical abilities can't survive.

And Seer can easily avoid being put in that situation.

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Who are these people?

Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s7KfetTixQ - around 9 min in video.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Your opponents can take twice as many hits as you, hit twice as often as you, effectively move twice as fast as you, and you can only hit one at once.

Fighting two people at once isn't twice as hard as fighting one person it's easily 4-8 times as hard.

But you know what they gonna do. You know how they gonna move, where they gonna strike. This is the biggest advantage in any fight. Knowing what your enemy will do.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But the Seer saw that thrust seconds before it came, and can move out of its way in less than a second. He can time up that dogde to start moving when he starts thrusting.

They have one second to prepare and so they can in less than a second move so far that neither thrust will hit them while also resetting their position so they can do it again? In less than a second?

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And Seer can easily avoid being put in that situation.

They see seconds into the future, not minutes.

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s7KfetTixQ - around 9 min in video.

I'll have to look into this.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But you know what they gonna do. You know how they gonna move, where they gonna strike. This is the biggest advantage in any fight. Knowing what your enemy will do.

Knowledge is nothing without ability.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They have one second to prepare and so they can in less than a second move so far that neither thrust will hit them while also resetting their position so they can do it again? In less than a second?

Because enemy will just keep thrusting mindlessly hoping that one will hit? Seer sees incoming thrust in shadow, prepers himself, and times it with his opponent, so when he is going to attack, Seers is starts moving as well. And yes, it takes less than a second to move your body out of the blade's way, either by stepping back, to the side, or even without stepping, just turning your body, or leaning, and you know, using a sword after that to strike on his opponent, when he still finishing his thrust.

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They see seconds into the future, not minutes.

Yes, that's sometimes entire fight. If not, they can easily see and chose to avoid positions that put them in disadvantage. For example, they see his enemy tries to push him back, so he moves to the left or right, or even attack before he does.

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Knowledge is nothing without ability.

Knowledge is a power. And this is not just some knowledge, it's seeing into the future in a fight. He can move away to safe distance, he can strike when he sees an opening, and he will see if that was successful, or puts him in danger, and can corrects for that. Yomen proves this. 

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'll have to look into this.

HEMA instructor, his students are fighting, of equal skill, without much experience in fighting with multiple opponents.

You said "no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel", all it takes is just one instance, to prove you wrong.

Edited December 12, 2022 by alder24

[Frustration he/him]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You said "no human has ever defeated two opponents at once in a duel", all it takes is just one instance, to prove you wrong.

Forgive me for being pedantic but that hardly counts as a duel.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because enemy will just keep thrusting mindlessly hoping that one will hit? Seer sees incoming thrust in shadow, prepers himself, and times it with his opponent, so when he is going to attack, Seers is starts moving as well. And yes, it takes less than a second to move your body out of the blade's way, either by stepping back, to the side, or even without stepping, just turning your body, or leaning, and you know, using a sword after that to strike on his opponent, when he still finishing his thrust.

Stepping back only gets you impaled on the other guys spear, same as to the sides.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's sometimes entire fight. If not, they can easily see and chose to avoid positions that put them in disadvantage. For example, they see his enemy tries to push him back, so he moves to the left or right, or even attack before he does.

But it's not the lead up to the fight. You can't foresee the fight and then choose the location.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Knowledge is a power. And this is not just some knowledge, it's seeing into the future in a fight. He can move away to safe distance, he can strike when he sees an opening, and he will see if that was successful, or puts him in danger, and can corrects for that. Yomen proves this.

The books prove nothing if the argument is that the books are flawed.

Anything you describe can be done by a skilled fighter. Atium would add finesse, but it's not a super-weapon.