The real reason Atium is powerful: bad writing

[Frustration he/him]

Atium, as it's shown wouldn't actually be that useful in combat.

As shown in books Atium allows you to know what your opponent will do in the next few seconds and improves your mental ability in order to understand and make use of that information. Sounds great. The problem is that it doesn't increase physical abilities.

It doesn't matter how long in advance you know an attack is coming if you aren't fast enough to block it. There is only so fast the human body can move, one that skilled fighters have already reached. Reach and speed are far more important than a little extra knowledge. 

This is a lot of what bothers me when we see atium burners take on multiple opponents at once. Even if they were only going against two people the normal people can attack twice as fast, and only have to worry about half of the attacks themselves.

Honestly pewter is a far better combat metal than Atium, the ability to react faster than your opponent, while also only having to dedicate a fraction of the time to make a forceful attack is far better than seeing slightly into the future.

If it came down to it I would say that an inarmed atium burner would lose to a slilled spearman.

 

Now that's not to say Atium would be useless, but it would be more like instant skill rather than the autowin it is presented as. So the more skilled you are the less atium matters.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[HSuperLee he/him]

I will first point out that virtually all the examples we have of detailed fights involving atium involve mistborn or inquistors, which means we're not just looking at two vanilla humans with just atium engaging with eachother. We're seeing metalborn with many powers that have to be balanced against each other. In such a situation, atium would be invaluable. Take, for example, fighting someone with pewter. It would be very hard to gauge the speed and force of their attacks in a fight because they can burn or not-burn pewter, as well as flare it. Plus each pewterarm will have a slightly different strength of allomancy, making it all very complicated. But if you can see that their next attack is going to be done with flared pewter (which you could judge from the speed of the attack) you know that you'll need to flare pewter to avoid it.

I will secondly point out that they're not seeing just a split second ahead, but several seconds ahead. Most fights only last a few seconds. They're not just seeing one attack, they are seeing and processing the whole fight before it happens. Yes, it is true that knowing an attack is coming doesn't necessarily mean you can avoid it, but they're not just seeing the attack, they're seeing everything that leads up to it, all the tells and positioning, how the environment is going to factor into it, etc. Seeing a few second ahead in everyday life is not that significant. Seeing a few seconds ahead in a fight makes you effectively omniscient for that fight.

My third and final point is that for those who are trained combatants operating at the top of their game, the fight is going to be much less about your physical abilities. While strength or flexibility is a valuable resource that can sway a fight, skill ultimately beats raw ability. Thus, a high level fight is about reading your opponent and being able to predict what they're going to do and what you need to do to counter it. Yes, there is a limit to how fast the human body can move, but as we see with Zane, someone burning atium is not reacting to what you're doing, they're reacting to what you're going to do before you do it. Yeah, a steelrunner can probably outspeed a seer, but I don't think anyone else can, not even pewterarms. Even if you theoretically could make an attack faster than a seer could dodge, they'll just not put themselves in a position where you can make that attack. If a seer knows that they can't overpower you once you start your assault, they'll kill you before you can make that assault.

Simply put, I just think you're underestimating atium. I agree, there are ways to beat it, its not an insta-win, and we're shown those ways in mistborn; Vin outmaneuvers atium and the koloss outgun it. There are a ton of magics that could beat it. But in the situations we've seen it be used in, it should be as powerful as its presented. Atium well deserves its title of godmetal, in my opinion.

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I will first point out that virtually all the examples we have of detailed fights involving atium involve mistborn or inquistors, which means we're not just looking at two vanilla humans with just atium engaging with eachother. We're seeing metalborn with many powers that have to be balanced against each other. In such a situation, atium would be invaluable. Take, for example, fighting someone with pewter. It would be very hard to gauge the speed and force of their attacks in a fight because they can burn or not-burn pewter, as well as flare it. Plus each pewterarm will have a slightly different strength of allomancy, making it all very complicated. But if you can see that their next attack is going to be done with flared pewter (which you could judge from the speed of the attack) you know that you'll need to flare pewter to avoid it.

Why you wouldn't be flaring pewter the entire time is my question. You won't run out before the fight is over, and there's no downside other than the increased burn rate. And you would never want to turn your pewter off.

13 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I will secondly point out that they're not seeing just a split second ahead, but several seconds ahead. Most fights only last a few seconds. They're not just seeing one attack, they are seeing and processing the whole fight before it happens. Yes, it is true that knowing an attack is coming doesn't necessarily mean you can avoid it, but they're not just seeing the attack, they're seeing everything that leads up to it, all the tells and positioning, how the environment is going to factor into it, etc. Seeing a few second ahead in everyday life is not that significant. Seeing a few seconds ahead in a fight makes you effectively omniscient for that fight.

While yes fights only last a couple of seconds, they aren't set in stone from the get-go, your opponent will react to what you do, which is noted as foiling atium's ability to predict.

But let's say you know exactly what I am going to do, you still have to stop me or you die. If I thrust forward you still have to parry.

15 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

My third and final point is that for those who are trained combatants operating at the top of their game, the fight is going to be much less about your physical abilities. While strength or flexibility is a valuable resource that can sway a fight, skill ultimately beats raw ability. Thus, a high level fight is about reading your opponent and being able to predict what they're going to do and what you need to do to counter it. Yes, there is a limit to how fast the human body can move, but as we see with Zane, someone burning atium is not reacting to what you're doing, they're reacting to what you're going to do before you do it. Yeah, a steelrunner can probably outspeed a seer, but I don't think anyone else can, not even pewterarms. Even if you theoretically could make an attack faster than a seer could dodge, they'll just not put themselves in a position where you can make that attack. If a seer knows that they can't overpower you once you start your assault, they'll kill you before you can make that assault.

Dodging isn't really that effective, even with the combined abilities of Atium and pewter, which would make it somewhat viable, all your opponent has to do is lean a little further forward to get you, or otherwise strike again as they can turn to face you far faster than you can go around them.

And that's not to mention that you can't get inside their reach. Humans aren't fast enough, and atium doesn't let you dodge into a place where there's no room for your body, with a weapon, or a shield you could do so, but without it you're toast.

21 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Simply put, I just think you're underestimating atium. I agree, there are ways to beat it, its not an insta-win, and we're shown those ways in mistborn; Vin outmaneuvers atium and the koloss outgun it. There are a ton of magics that could beat it. But in the situations we've seen it be used in, it should be as powerful as its presented. Atium well deserves its title of godmetal, in my opinion.

I don't disagree it has its uses, and the invesiture needed is exactly what such a metal deserves. But there are simple limitations it can't overcome. I think Atium would need to provide additional speed to the user to be as good as shown.

[HSuperLee he/him]

I don't know, Frus. My combat experience is definitely limited, but when I was in martial arts, I got beat by old men who I was faster than multiple times because nothing I did could surprise them and they could surprise me in a dozen different ways. You and I could probably go on and on in circles about this topic forever, and I don't want to completely flood this thread with only two opinions. In the end, I just think fights are absurdly complicated. Its why I generally don't participate in versus threads, it seems to me that there's no real way to predict the outcome of a fight until it happens, there are just too many variables. The thing atium does is give you more brain power to simplify a fight so that its easier to gain an advantage. Seeing the future almost seems like the lesser of atium's two benefits to me, with the mental enhancement being the greater. At least as far as combat is concerned. I also know that atium seems to make seers or mistborn more efficient, cutting unnecessary movement and refining their every action. I think does more than just show you the future, I think it optimizes the metalborn using it for combat. Sure, that's just a theory, but it seems reflected in the text. I certainly hope we get to see more atium in the future, and that its precise effects are better documented. Especially now that we have the WoB about Era 1 atium not being "true" atium (I'm still annoyed with that).

All this to say, please, other people, join this thread and share your opinions so that Frustration and I aren't just playing opinion-pong with one another here. This is a very fascinating discussion and I don't want it to end just because I refuse to respond too many times in quick succession.

Edited December 11, 2022 by HSuperLee

[MangoBoi101 he/him]

"Dodging isn't really that effective, even with the combined abilities of Atium and pewter, which would make it somewhat viable, all your opponent has to do is lean a little further forward to get you, or otherwise strike again as they can turn to face you far faster than you can go around them."

Not true, dodging is one of the main things to do in a sword fight put above blocking with a sword cause that wastes down your sword in the long run.

other then that I agree atuim should not be that powerful compared to other metals.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

While yes fights only last a couple of seconds, they aren't set in stone from the get-go, your opponent will react to what you do, which is noted as foiling atium's ability to predict.

You do realize, the future the Seer sees, is already the one in which Atium-shadow reacted to future actions of the Seer? Basically the Seer has only an illusion of choice, as every choice that the Seer think he might do, is already predeterminated the momnet he sees Atium-shadow, and he will alway choose the very thing Atium-shadow is reacting to. It take very sperial circumstances to "split" the shadow - like Vin show us. It's time travel, it's complicated.

Moreover, Pewter doesn't stop lethal strikes. If he takes on lethal hit, he will die.

Atium allows you to see FEW seconds into the future. Do you know how significant it is? It takes few seconds to make multiple strikes one after another, less than a second to dodge a strike. Fights are extremely dynamic. I would rather see into the future even without skills and be able to dodge a strike before its even made, than wonder if that strike was lethal or not.

Some HEMA for you:

Spoiler

 

The best way to win a fight, even without skill, is to be out of range, or look for openings. Atium allows you to do that.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Dodging isn't really that effective, even with the combined abilities of Atium and pewter, which would make it somewhat viable, all your opponent has to do is lean a little further forward to get you, or otherwise strike again as they can turn to face you far faster than you can go around them.

"lean a little further forward"? and be thrown out of balance which would make perfect opening for a strike? Dodging is the number one method if you don't have a shield.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, MangoBoi101 said:

Not true, dodging is one of the main things to do in a sword fight put above blocking with a sword cause that wastes down your sword in the long run.

 

31 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Atium allows you to see FEW seconds into the future. Do you know how significant it is? It takes few seconds to make multiple strikes one after another, less than a second to dodge a strike. Fights are extremely dynamic. I would rather see into the future even without skills and be able to dodge for you:

  Reveal hidden contents

Dodging is the number one method if you don't have a shield.

I'll adress these together. 

Have either of you ever seen a dodge during an actual fight? Aside form backing up it never happens. And if you back out of range you can't atrack either.

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You do realize, the future the Seer sees, is already the one in which Atium-shadow reacted to future actions of the Seer? Basically the Seer has only an illusion of choice, as every choice that the Seer think he might do, is already predeterminated the momnet he sees Atium-shadow, and he will alway choose the very thing Atium-shadow is reacting to. It take very sperial circumstances to "split" the shadow - like Vin show us. It's time travel, it's complicated.

Vin split the shadow by reacting to Zane, not time travel. She changed what she was going to do by reacting to him, that's entirely normal, and any skilled fighter does it. Heck unskilled fighters do it.

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Moreover, Pewter doesn't stop lethal strikes. If he takes on lethal hit, he will die.

Pewter makes stikes less life threatening.

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

"lean a little further forward"? and be thrown out of balance which would make perfect opening for a strike?

Given the description of Atium dodges, which is just "leans back far enough the blade doesn't touch skin" your balance isn't what you need to worry about. 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Have either of you ever seen a dodge during an actual fight? Aside form backing up it never happens. And if you back out of range you can't atrack either.

Here you go, look at the foot:

Spoiler

Stepping back is a dodge. What do you want dodges to look like, rolling around like in Dark Souls?

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Vin split the shadow by reacting to Zane, not time travel. She changed what she was going to do by reacting to him, that's entirely normal, and any skilled fighter does it. Heck unskilled fighters do it.

Atium Seer is time traveling (kind of). What Vin did required special circumstances, and in the very last second reaction. She at first did (and thought) exactly what Zane had seen, just to change it by thinking and acting differently at the very last possible moment. That's not something that your average guy is gonna do. She did it, because she knew how Atium works, someone who doesn't burn Atium wouldn't know about it.

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Pewter makes stikes less life threatening.

You mean stabbing your heart would be "less life threatening"? Yeah, pewter speeds up healing, but multiple times during era 1 it was told how dangerous is relying too much on pewter.

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Given the description of Atium dodges, which is just "leans back far enough the blade doesn't touch skin" your balance isn't what you need to worry about. 

It is, as a blade just passed by the body of your opponent, it still has momentum, and you can't just "go further", first you have to swing your blade back at the opponent, which gives him time to move. And that's within 1 second. When you loose your balance at fight, you dead in most cases.

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Here you go, look at the foot:

  Reveal hidden contents

Stepping back is a dodge. What do you want dodges to look like, rolling around like in Dark Souls?

Yes I am referring to Hollywood dodges, which it seems you are aware of them being completely made up, so I guess this doesn't apply but I always seem to find people who believe them, and thought I'd cover my bases.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Atium Seer is time traveling (kind of). What Vin did required special circumstances, and in the very last second reaction. She at first did (and thought) exactly what Zane had seen, just to change it by thinking and acting differently at the very last possible moment. That's not something that your average guy is gonna do. She did it, because she knew how Atium works, someone who doesn't burn Atium wouldn't know about it.

Let me put it this way, you're saying the only qay to split a shadow is to start following a shadows path and then change course mid way through right?

The thing is you are always following the shadows course, any change of plan, any reaction and you will break the shadow.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You mean stabbing your heart would be "less life threatening"? Yeah, pewter speeds up healing, but multiple times during era 1 it was told how dangerous is relying too much on pewter.

I mean getting stabbed in the gut while burning pewter is less life threatening then while burning atium.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It is, as a blade just passed by the body of your opponent, it still has momentum, and you can't just "go further", first you have to swing your blade back at the opponent, which gives him time to move. And that's within 1 second. When you loose your balance at fight, you dead in most cases.

How would they move to the side all of a sudden? In the book they lean back, and you can lean forward a lot more than you can lean backwards. So in krder to counter this, simply lean forward more, you opponent will lose balance before you do.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes I am referring to Hollywood dodges, which it seems you are aware of them being completely made up, so I guess this doesn't apply but I always seem to find people who believe them, and thought I'd cover my bases.

I'm giving you examples  of HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts, form of fighting practiced and documented in medieval and modern period. That's how they were fighting in the past. Hollywood is not historically accurate.

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Let me put it this way, you're saying the only qay to split a shadow is to start following a shadows path and then change course mid way through right?

No, it's to do exactly what VIn did, and she not just reacted to what Zane did. If she went into that strike with a thought of using Zane's movement, to see what he's seeing in Atium which allows Vin to see future from Zane's movement, Zane would have seen it in her Atium-shadow before his moves and do something else, reacting to what Vin will do when she wanted to react to Zane, and Vin wouldn't be able to do it differently form what Zane had seen. She did it, because she went into that strike without thinking of reacting to it, and then decided to react to it, when Zane was finishing his strike, because she knew how Atium works as she experienced it. It's getting complicated! I can't explain it in word, but I know how it works in mind. Time shenanigans are too confusing.

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The thing is you are always following the shadows course, any change of plan, any reaction and you will break the shadow.

Who is you? Seer or his enemy? The thing is, in any fight you always react to what's your enemy doing, no matter what. In this fight it is the same. Seer's enemy is reacting to what Seer is doing, but that enemy is doing that knowing that he will react to Seer, meanwhile Seer sees Atium-shadow that reacts to Seer's action, and therefore he reacts to reaction on himself seconds before Seer doing it. Anything that Seer's opponent is doing was already seen by Seer, and Seer cannot change it by choosing to do something that wasn't seen by him (as there would be multiple shadows). Seer always doing, what Atium Shadows is reacting to and this is best course of action for Seer and thus cannot choose anything other.

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I mean getting stabbed in the gut while burning pewter is less life threatening then while burning atium.

Not in guts, HEART! When burning Atium, you can just avoid it, and not get stabbed as you see it coming. Or better - decapitation.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

How would they move to the side all of a sudden? In the book they lean back, and you can lean forward a lot more than you can lean backwards. So in krder to counter this, simply lean forward more, you opponent will lose balance before you do.

Center of your mass is in your way of how much you can lean forward. And momentum of your blade must be preserved or changed. You can't lean forward during active movement without it being part of that movement, as you won't be able to time it. The example you gave - "leans back far enough the blade doesn't touch skin" - if you lean forward when you noticed that blade doesn't touch the skin (the closest point between body and sword), before lean would be compleated (even before you start leaning), the blade would be cutting air, as it was carried by momentum away from the body. If you do it better, and allow your blade to be carried by momentum and use that to swing it back and take a step forward instead of leaning, the opponent would have lots of time to move, and react to what you're doing - move, dodge, block, or deflect.

You're talking about moves made in less than a second. LESS than a second! Look at the gifs I gave you, from HEMA. There is no "noticing that your blade won't hit when it's closest and leaning forward", all made moves are smooth, in specific sequence, and sword positioning, followed by another smooth move, reacting to what was done previously.

Leaning is best way to lose your balance, stepping is what you want to do, as it's givivng you much greater range and balance. All movements and strikes have some form, some way to do them, way of positioning a sword before, that will follow specific path because of momentum, not just random hitting that you see in Hollywood, or games.

[Frustration he/him]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm giving you examples  of HEMA - Historical European Martial Arts, form of fighting practiced and documented in medieval and modern period.

I know what HEMA is.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 Hollywood is not historically accurate.

That's what I just said.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, it's to do exactly what VIn did, and she not just reacted to what Zane did. If she went into that strike with a thought of using Zane's movement, to see what he's seeing in Atium which allows Vin to see future from Zane's movement, Zane would have seen it in her Atium-shadow before his moves and do something else, reacting to what Vin will do when she wanted to react to Zane, and Vin wouldn't be able to do it differently form what Zane had seen. She did it, because she went into that strike without thinking of reacting to it, and then decided to react to it, when Zane was finishing his strike, because she knew how Atium works as she experienced it. It's getting complicated!

But Vin did go into it thinking about reacting to him.

And Brandon said that the atium burner can change the future by showing others what to do, ergo any reaction to them will change the shadows.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Vin Kills Zane despite his Atium

The other thing I had to foreshadow, then make work in this chapter, was the way to kill someone who was burning atium. This is also something I stole from Mistborn Prime, and I'm afraid that it worked better there.

The thing is, I just haven't spent enough of the plot with Vin working on this problem. Killing an atium-burner was a major plotting conflict in Mistborn Prime, which was a much shorter book, without so much going on. In this book, we have many, many different plotlines and secrets interweaving. And so there wasn't a whole lot of time for Vin to worry about how to survive without atium.

According to the laws of Allomancy, this is very in-line with how atium works. Only someone burning atium can change the future–but they can change it accidentally by showing someone else what to do.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Oct. 13, 2008)

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I can't explain it in word, but I know how it works in mind.

I have felt that particular Frustration before, why can't words exist for the ideas I need!

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Who is you? Seer or his enemy? The thing is, in any fight you always react to what's your enemy doing, no matter what. In this fight it is the same. Seer's enemy is reacting to what Seer is doing, but that enemy is doing that knowing that he will react to Seer, meanwhile Seer sees Atium-shadow that reacts to Seer's action, and therefore he reacts to reaction on himself seconds before Seer doing it. Anything that Seer's opponent is doing was already seen by Seer, and Seer cannot change it by choosing to do something that wasn't seen by him (as there would be multiple shadows). Seer always doing, what Atium Shadows is reacting to and this is best course of action for Seer and thus cannot choose anything other.

No, Atium shows what the seers opponent plans to do. Not what they will do assuming the seer reacts to it, otherwise it's going to be constantly fluctuating. 

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not in guts, HEART! When burning Atium, you can just avoid it, and not get stabbed as you see it coming. Or better - decapitation.

You can back away easier when burning pewter, so if we assume one person got hit you have to assume they both did, in which case the pewterarm has the high chance of survival.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Center of your mass is in your way of how much you can lean forward. And momentum of your blade must be preserved or changed. You can't lean forward during active movement without it being part of that movement, as you won't be able to time it. The example you gave - "leans back far enough the blade doesn't touch skin" - if you lean forward when you noticed that blade doesn't touch the skin (the closest point between body and sword), before lean would be compleated (even before you start leaning), the blade would be cutting air, as it was carried by momentum away from the body. If you do it better, and allow your blade to be carried by momentum and use that to swing it back and take a step forward instead of leaning, the opponent would have lots of time to move, and react to what you're doing - move, dodge, block, or deflect.

Look, you thrust forward. According to the books the seer simply leans back until the blade won't hit them. Not steps back, leans.

You can lean forward further than you can back, ergo just lean forward more, and they will fall down before you do.

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You're talking about moves made in less than a second. LESS than a second! Look at the gifs I gave you, from HEMA. There is no "noticing that your blade won't hit when it's closest and leaning forward", all made moves are smooth, in specific sequence, and sword positioning, followed by another smooth move, reacting to what was done previously.

They reacted to people backing away why not to them leaning back?

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

All movements and strikes have some form, some way to do them, way of positioning a sword before, that will follow specific path because of momentum, not just random hitting that you see in Hollywood, or games.

I understand.

I get that Hollywood fight scenes look nothing like real battle. I know.

Now, back to the source of this particular quible you have. 

In WoA Vin thrusts at Zane, and he LEANS back to dodge it. He doesn't step, he leans. To counter this all you have to do is keep learning forward, leaning back will cause you to tip faster than leaning forward.

 

[StanLemon]

Have you ever thrust a weapon? The thrusting person is more likely to fall over because of the momentum than the leaner if they try to keep leaning. Also Atium would have to keep adjusting the shadows you see based on the reactions to the Seer's actions otherwise Atium would make no sense. So basically unless the shadows split constantly which isn't supported the books, the vision already accounts for the Seer's action. So basically the Seer would see the maximum reach the weapon will go, and as @HSuperLee has said, Atium's biggest advantage seems to be the enhanced mental effect that let's an Allomancer process that information and utilize it.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Have you ever thrust a weapon? The thrusting person is more likely to fall over because of the momentum than the leaner if they try to keep leaning. Also Atium would have to keep adjusting the shadows you see based on the reactions to the Seer's actions otherwise Atium would make no sense. So basically unless the shadows split constantly which isn't supported the books, the vision already accounts for the Seer's action. So basically the Seer would see the maximum reach the weapon will go, and as @HSuperLee has said, Atium's biggest advantage seems to be the enhanced mental effect that let's an Allomancer process that information and utilize it.

 

If it takes the seer's actions into account, how did Vin split the shadows?

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If it takes the seer's actions into account, how did Vin split the shadows?

Because like all Cosmere future sight it isn't perfect, Vin understands how Atium works from experience, her actions were taken by knowing and paying attention to Zane's actions (more convoluted than Atium), AND most importantly she only chose her action at the last possible second.

The book even tries to express how difficult and surprising that is. Clearly not something that's easily replicated in a fight. 

The biggest difference between your thrusting scenario and Vin's is she set up an If/Then circumstance whereas the keep leaning decision is a decision made after the consequence of the first decision to thrust happened so it is a sequential set of actions the Atium could predict 

Edited December 12, 2022 by StanLemon

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Because like all Cosmere future sight it isn't perfect, Vin understands how Atium works from experience, her actions were taken by knowing and paying attention to Zane's actions (more convoluted than Atium), AND most importantly she only chose her action at the last possible second.

The book even tries to express how difficult and surprising that is. Clearly not something that's easily replicated in a fight. 

The biggest difference between your thrusting scenario and Vin's is she set up an If/Then circumstance whereas the keep is a decision made after the consequence of the first decision to thrust happened so it is a sequential set of actions the Atium could predict 

I feel like you are splitting hairs here.

If setting up an if then is all that matters: I stab, if they lean back the  keep going forward.

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I feel like you are splitting hairs here.

If setting up an if then is all that matters: I stab, if they lean back the  keep going forward.

It's clearly not that simple. Vin was reserving her actions in preparation of Zane's attack and keeping all her attention on his movements. 

Your scenario is still nothing more than a reaction to the thrusters decision 

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

It's clearly not that simple. Vin was reserving her actions in preparation of Zane's attack and keeping all her attention on his movements. 

Your scenario is still nothing more than a reaction to the thrusters decision 

The momment in the attack doesn't matter because you are always in the atium shadow. It's one continuous shadow, not a different one for each attack. Any time someone reacts to a seer will split the shadow.

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The momment in the attack doesn't matter because you are always in the atium shadow. It's one continuous shadow, not a different one for each attack. Any time someone reacts to a seer will split the shadow.

That's clearly not the case. It obviously means that certain focus is necessary to pull it off

[Frustration he/him]

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

That's clearly not the case. It obviously means that certain focus is necessary to pull it off

Or...

It's just bad writing. 

[StanLemon]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Or...

It's just bad writing. 

I and seemingly several people here disagree. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad writing 

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

I and seemingly several people here disagree. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad writing 

It doesn't make sense give its own established rules.

The only way you can claim it works as described without being incredibly weak is if "special focus is needed to pull it off"

If you have to add rules not hinted at it the text in order for it to work that is an inherent weakness in the writing. 

[HSuperLee he/him]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It doesn't make sense give its own established rules.

The only way you can claim it works as described without being incredibly weak is if "special focus is needed to pull it off"

If you have to add rules not hinted at it the text in order for it to work that is an inherent weakness in the writing. 

I don't necessarily agree with everything StanLemons is saying, but I do think there might be something to Vin having the right Intent to counter atium, and trying to do what she did without knowing that Zane was using atium might have different results. Considering how Sanderson is leaking that Intent is really important to all his magic systems (all I can say without Cosmere spoilers), I wouldn't call that inconsistent.

[Treamayne]

Just so we have references for context:
HoA Ch 44

Spoiler

 

Either he’s no Allomancer, Elend thought, or he’s one hell of an actor.

He let Yomen go, pushing the king back toward his dining table. Elend shook his head—that was one mystery that was—

Yomen jumped forward, pulling out a glass knife, slashing. Elend started, ducking backward, but the knife hit, slicing a gash in his forearm. The cut blazed with pain, enhanced by Elend’s tin, and Elend cursed, stumbling away.

Yomen struck again, and Elend should have been able to dodge. He had pewter, and Yomen was still moving with the clumsiness of an unenhanced man. Yet, the attack moved with Elend, somehow managing to take him in the side. Elend grunted, blood hot on his skin, and he looked into Yomen’s eyes. The king pulled the knife free, easily dodging Elend’s counterstrike. It was almost like ...

Elend burned electrum, giving himself a bubble of false atium images. Yomen hesitated immediately, looking confused.

He’s burning atium, Elend thought with shock.

 

Atium allows Yomen to follow the movements of the Pewter burning Eland

Ch 60

Spoiler

 

Yomen turned. As always, he wore the little drop of atium at his forehead. Vin lunged for it.

Yomen stepped casually out of the way. Vin lunged again, this time feinting, then trying to elbow him in the stomach. Her attack didn’t land, however, as Yomen—hands still clasped behind his back—sidestepped her again.

She knew that look on his face—that look of complete control, of power. Yomen obviously had very little battle training, but he dodged her anyway.

He was burning atium.

Vin stumbled to a halt. No wonder he wears that bit on his forehead, she thought. It’s for emergencies.

 

Yomen sidesteps - not leaning back, not moving back - lateral dodges. . .

Ch 60

Spoiler

 

Yomen didn’t respond.

“Admit it. I’m in no danger here.” She stepped forward.

And Yomen moved. His steps suddenly became more fluid—he didn’t have the grace of pewter or the knowledge of a warrior, but he moved just right. She dodged instinctively, but his atium let him anticipate her, and before she could so much as think, he’d thrown her to the floor, holding her pinned with a knee against her back.

“I may not kill you yet,” he said calmly, “but that hardly means that you’re in ‘no danger,’ Lady Venture.”

Vin grunted.

 

Atium is shown to also have an effect on body movement - not as much as Pewter - but certainly more fluid than an untrained person fighting.

WoA Ch 47

Spoiler

I can’t hit him, she thought with frustration. Not when he knows where I’ll strike before I do!

Vin paused.

Before I do….

Zane stepped away to a place near the center of the room, then kicked her fallen dagger into the air and caught it. He turned back toward her, mist trailing from the weapon in his hand, jaw set and eyes dark.

He knows where I’ll strike before I do.

Vin raised her dagger, blood trickling down face and side, thunderous drumbeats booming in her mind. The mist was nearly up to her chin.

She cleared her mind. She didn’t plan an attack. She didn’t react to Zane as he ran toward her, dagger raised. She loosened her muscles and closed her eyes, listening to his footsteps. She felt the mist rise around her, churned by Zane’s advent.

She snapped her eyes open. He had the dagger raised; it glittered as it swung. Vin prepared to attack, but didn’t think about the strike; she simply let her body react.

And she watched Zane very, very carefully.

He flinched just slightly to the left, open hand moving upward, as if to grab something.

There! Vin thought, immediately wrenching herself to the side, forcing her instinctive attack out of its natural trajectory. She twisted her arm—and dagger—midswing. She had been about to attack left, as Zane’s atium had anticipated.

But, by reacting, Zane had shown her what she was going to do. Let her see the future. And if she could see it, she could change it.

They met. Zane’s weapon took her in the shoulder. But Vin’s knife took him in the neck. His left hand closed on empty air, snatching at a shadow that should have told him where her arm would be.

Zane looked up through the mists, looked up at her. I’m dying, he thought.

Her atium shadow had split at the last moment. Two shadows, two possibilities. He’d counteracted the wrong one. She’d tricked him, defeated him somehow. And now he was dying.

Finally.

Vin clearly shows a certain mindset - to allow muscle memory and instinct to guide her action - then uses the information in Zane's flinch to change course. Zane clearly shows that with the split atium shadow he could still have blocked her - but he chose the wrong shadow to counter.

[Tglassy]

So...what I'm gathering her...is you're...trolling?

That's really the only thing I can think to describe your argument.  You hyperfocus on the world "Lean", giving the same false argument (if he leans, i can lean further) that has already been discredited.  No, you couldn't just lean further.  And even if you COULD just lean further, the Atium burner would KNOW that you were going to just lean further, and would move in such a way as to make you miss.  He'd grab your hand, because he knows where your hand is going to be.  He'd tap your blade and shift it, because he'd know exactly where to put his finger so it wouldn't be cut.  Sure, Zane 'leaned' back, because he had pewter, and his balance was impecable, and he could do Neo Matrix crap.  

I mean, that entire image (I just lean further, then you lean further, then i lean further until one of us falls down) is just ludicrus.  Is that what you do during a fight?  You punch with your arm at them, they move back, and you, keeping your arm straight, just keep moving forward hoping for them to fall?  I'm no fight expert, but I feel like if you had a dagger and jabbed at someone, and they were suddenly out of reach, you'd, i don't know, pull your hand back, because if you just kept your arm outstretched and moved forward, they'd, I don't know, grab your wrist?  

What I think Atium does is show you the most likely future.  And within a few seconds, it's ALMOST guaranteed.  You see what they will do for the next few seconds.  And yes, what you do changes what they will do...but Atium ALSO increases your mental accuity to adjust for that as well.  Their atium shadows change, they have to, but you can keep up with it, you know when and how they will change.  You SEE THE FUTURE.  

What happened with Zane is that Vin, at the last moment, had two directions she could go that were equally plausible. It was a litteral coin flip.  She only won because she happened to decide to use the one he didn't block.

Look at it this way.  The future branches out into multiple possibilities.  The further you look, the more possibilities.  Those possibilities funnel into one point, the present.  If you look at it like a line, then a new line branches out (a new possibility is born) with every possible choice that is made by every person.  But in the present, there is only one choice. So the past is a line, the future is branches.

Now, most people make these choices a second or two ahead of actually acting on it, cause we think a lot faster than we act.  So if you're looking at that line, then for most people, that line won't start to branch out for a few seconds in the future.  For a few seconds, their furture is pretty much set.  That's what Atium lets you see. Flaring Atium lets you see further.  Using Duralamin lets you see a LOT further, but you start seeing all the branching possibliities.  

But you don't HAVE to have that second or two of a set future.  If you can move purely on instinct, making the choice in the moment, reacting instead of acting, then your personal future line would split a lot closer to the present.  

But it's HELLA HARD to be that much in the moment, because of the way our minds work.  Someone trained to fight will be better at this, because reacting to what your opponent is going to do is pretty much what defrintiates a winner from a loser, but there will still be some delay between the decision and the action, and Atium lets you see past that delay.  

Vin, in that moment, was pure instinct.  Her future timeline didn't converge into a single, set future until the present moment happened.  So Atium couldn't parse it.  It couldn't see that one, set future.  Because in that moment, there were two set futures which hadn't been decided yet.  And Zane picked the wrong one to block.  A literal coin flip.  Zain lost by a coin flip.  

So...you can sit here and spout "It's just bad writing" all you want...or you can stop being a troll and just suspend your disbelief for a series about people who swallow metal and gain mystical powers from it.  

[HSuperLee he/him]

@Tglassy, I get where you're coming from, but I think you might be taking it a bit too far here. I don't believe Frustration is trolling. I believe he's wrong, but not maliciously so. I appreciate your zeal for the topic, and you've made some good points, such as Zane's sense of balance being enhanced by his pewter.
 

43 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

suspend your disbelief for a series about people who swallow metal and gain mystical powers from it.  

This I'm going to have to push back against. Yes, reading a Sanderson book requires suspending our disbelief to accept a world where magic exists and allows for impossible things. But when you say it this way, it sounds as if you're implying that any logical flaws or inconsistencies can be explained away by the fact its a fantasy book. I hope that is not what you actually mean. I know part of the reason I love Sander's writings is the depth of which he considers the applications and implication of his magic systems. I adore how much effort he puts into giving them rules that he tries his best to consistently apply. Heck, it was Sanderson's Laws of Magic that convinced me to start reading his books in the first place. I also know I'm not alone in that. So I hope that you're not dismissing all that away with the phrase, "suspend your disbelief." If I have read too much into what you meant as an innocent statement, I apologize, I've just been burned by that specific argument before and I'm hypersensitive to it as a result. I do not mean to cause offense.

All this to say, you've made your points, and they were good one. You don't need to go further than that and start accusing Frustration of trolling. That just turns this from a discussion into an argument.