Problems with the lost metal.

[Frustration he/him]

For starters I loved the lost metal, but it's not perfect and I had a few issues with it. I wanted to talk about my mostly minor issues with it, and I thought I'd make space for everyone to put their gripes that weren't big enough to deserve their own thread.

1. Marsh came and rescued Wax and Co. but he didn't notice Etone's spikes despite his steelsight. TLR could use steelsight to see people's hearts, I doubt that he somehow missed the spikes but for some reason he doesn't mention this to Wax.
2. Marasi's conversation with Kel at the end doesn't make sense. She worships Kel, why would she turn him down in such a way? It would have been so easy for her to say "I will join if you insist, but I don't think I'm a good fit for your organization." But instead she practically insults him.

What problems did you have with the lost metal?

Edited December 20, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Treamayne]

• I felt some of the name drops-were too blatent (and frankly annoying). For example: Why actually say "Kaise" or the Arelish pronunciation of Shai's name? The brother/math reference was more than enough for the former, and the stamps were fairly conclusive for the latter (or would be speculation fodder on a different female Forger being involved). 
• The bloody missing/extra Coinshot Spike (already debated in other threads). 
• The lack of mention about the Noseball league in Allriandre's Epilogue. They even mention "a few holdbacks," that "Wayne set aside for other things" - would it be so hard to confirm the Noseball league here?

12 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Marasi's conversation with Kel at the end doesn't make sense. She worships Kel, why would she turn him down in such a way? It would have been so easy for her to say "I will join if you insist, but I don't think I'm a good fit for your organization." But instead she practically insults him.

I actually found it very beleivable. It's the same day as the events; tensions are high and she's still reeling from finding out that the GBs knew about the Set's plans in the works (at least some of it) and because they kept it to themselves a disaster nearly occured. I could have conceivably accepted a "let me sleep on it" stall measure - but to feel betrayed by a hero is crushing. I expect that's how she felt and was kind of surprised her response was as calm and rational as it was (as soon as she discovered they had data on where the Set was hiding and what they had been up to, I was already sure she would never join them). 

[Frustration he/him]

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

• The lack of mention about the Noseball league in Allriandre's Epilogue. They even mention "a few holdbacks," that "Wayne set aside for other things" - would it be so hard to confirm the Noseball league here?

I thought the holdbacks were the gifts he gave Ranette, and the things he wanted left in Wax's coat, with Noseball being included in the companies he had investments in.

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

• I actually found it very beleivable. It's the same day as the events; tensions are high and she's still reeling from finding out that the GBs knew about the Set's plans in the works (at least some of it) and because they kept it to themselves a disaster nearly occured. I could have conceivably accepted a "let me sleep on it" stall measure - but to feel betrayed by a hero is crushing. I expect that's how she felt and was kind of surprised her response was as calm and rational as it was (as soon as she discovered they had data on where the Set was hiding and what they had been up to, I was already sure she would never join them). 

I never got the feeling that it was "you could have done more why didn't you" so much as "I want to be open about what I am doing"

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I never got the feeling that it was "you could have done more why didn't you" so much as "I want to be open about what I am doing"

I'm specifically referenceing this section in Ch 36:

Spoiler

“Where to?”

“Knightbridge district,” Marasi said. “Thirty-Third and Finete.”

The cabbie nodded, pulling out into the flow of traffic and taking them westward.

“Clever,” Moonlight said to Marasi. “I’m going to have to watch myself around you. But what makes you think our safehouse will have the maps you want?”

“You found me in the caverns beneath Elendel,” Marasi said. “Plus, a moment ago you implied such maps existed—you didn’t have them ‘on you.’ Ergo, I assumed this was a good path forward. Your people will have the information we need.”

“They might not let you in,” Moonlight said. “What then? You’ll have wasted time.”

“Wasted time,” Marasi snapped. “Wasted time?” She glanced toward the cabbie, uncertain what she should say.

“Darkwater, dear,” Moonlight said to the cabbie, “give us a little privacy.”

“Sure thing, Moonlight,” the cabbie said, shutting the window separating the front of the car from the back.

Marasi gaped. Then she looked at Moonlight, who shrugged.

“Moonlight,” Marasi said, focusing her thoughts, “what kind of game do you think we’re playing? Didn’t you say your entire purpose was protecting this planet? Now you imply you’d keep me locked out of your safehouse, and the vital information it contains?”

Moonlight settled in her seat, thoughtful. “My organization,” she eventually said, “was created to protect and advance the needs of the planet Scadrial. It’s not my homeland, but I am committed to seeing it remain stable. There are terrible forces moving in the cosmere; my people are going to need allies.”

“So why are you so resistant to helping me?”

“To be honest,” Moonlight said, “I’m worried we’re being played. Autonomy is adept at misdirection, at false leads and confusing shadows of half-truths. Restarting the ashfalls? That seems … outrageous. Impossible even for her. Something is off about all this. A shade too red to be natural.”

“So help me find the truth, Moonlight,” Marasi said. “Stop toying with me.”

“I’m not toying with you,” Moonlight said. “This is an audition.”

Marasi blinked. What?

“Until a little while ago,” Moonlight continued, “I assumed we had months to unravel the Set’s plan.” She tapped her armrest with a fingernail, then looked at her bag, where the rubbings she’d taken were peeking out.

During their short time working together, Marasi had started to see Moonlight as all-knowing—someone mysterious, alien. But that concern in her eyes, the way she was fighting uncertainty … that was all too human.

“I’ll let you into the safehouse,” Moonlight finally said. “And deal with the ramifications later, if this proves to all be another of Autonomy’s shadow games. But I’m not sure I can give you everything you want.

“We don’t have the caverns in the city mapped, but we do watch their agents.” She patted her bag, and the rubbings. “This lists coordinates of the explosions. So if we compare where the blasts have been happening with the places where Set agents appear and vanish…”

“… We might be able to find a way into their testing facility,” Marasi said. “I did something similar to locate that cavern under Elendel.”

“I remember when all this started to hit me,” Moonlight said softly. “When my world expanded, and my personal squabbles—even the ones that influenced the fates of empires—suddenly became so small. You’re doing remarkably well.”

“My life,” Marasi said, “has mostly been expanses of quiet humdrum punctuated by sudden explosions—usually literal ones—of activity. I’m used to working under pressure.”

“And dealing with gods?” Moonlight said. “Fighting their influence?”

“Well, we have one on our own side, after all.”

“Kind of,” Moonlight said. “Harmony isn’t terribly reliable these days. At least not in the ways my mentor would prefer. It’s less like having a god on your side—and more like having a powerful referee who only sometimes pays attention to your fight.”

“Or an observer,” Marasi said, “who you’re sure could do more to help, but doesn’t for some baffling reason.”

“Yes, like…” Moonlight narrowed her eyes. “Point made.

For somebody like Marasi, who sees the legal system as generally good for teh people (despite its flaws) - though this and other interactions, I just had the impression that she was incompatible with "secret society" life. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

1) The Southern/Basin tension was built up pretty well in the beginning then just kinda fizzled out with the BoM scene that left a cliffhanger we will not see concluded for years.

2) I absolutely loved the Telsin twist in BoM and was really excited about the showdown but it honestly concluded a little underwhelming to me. Harmony interrupts her power or whatever from Autonomy and she lays down and dies. 

 

 

 

[Returned]

I felt similarly. It's a good book but not a great one, and I can't shake the feeling that the final evaluation before publishing was essentially that it's good enough. There were issues that felt, to me, like they were balanced on the reservoir of goodwill from dedicated fans more than anything else. And I feel that many of those would have been hard to miss for Sanderson, editors, and advance readers altogether.

1. Too much was teased in BoM which was totally dropped in LM. As I mentioned in another thread, the lack of any specificity at all in explanation for why Metallic Arts medallions are not more widespread or how they work and why they don't work in other ways felt almost insulting to me. Not a huge deal, but it's not like there's a need to keep details hidden for future books. I'm going to read them anyways!
2. The political situation in the Basin was presented as balanced on a knife's edge in SoS and BoM, and remains pretty much the same six years later in LM. That makes protagonists' actions feel less meaningful and hurts my investment in the story and also makes the threats seem less significant.
3. The villains were all back-benchers who were broadly ineffective. Telsin was a letdown compared to BoM, Autonomy was menacing but her army never arrived and she just left. Not-Wax and not-Wayne were interesting enough but their presence felt contrived to me (Autonomy apparently wants a person exactly like you for some reason, so I need to copy you in every possible way? OK, I guess). None of them stacked up to Bleeder or Miles for me in portrayal, motivations, or methods.
4. There was more focus than I would have preferred on Sazed's difficulties holding Preservation and Ruin, given that his difficulty in acting has been a consistent theme for a long time. He's changing, sure, and that matters a lot, sure, but it was kind of a non-factor in this book. I felt like we heard more about Harmony's state in this book than any of the others but also learned less about it, so the focus was unsatisfying.
5. There were too many connections to the broader Cosmere that were there just for the sake of being there. Someone in another thread scolded me (rudely) for not being sufficiently excited about some of those connections and mentioned the Identity safe, for example. The safe is really cool, but didn't interact with the story in any way. It was there just to be there and have its properties described. I might as well have been reading Coppermind about it, not a novel. TwinSoul (a character I really liked!) mattered to the story but mainly in solving an arbitrary problem as soon as it appeared in a way that just happened to showcase his non-Scadrian abilities. Contrast with the potential Skybreakers at the end: they were present, their nature was hinted at but not bluntly blurted out, and they didn't get more attention than their role in the story demands. We're starting to lose the "here's a cool, novel way to apply specific, rules-based magic you know about that makes it useful in addressing problems" approach to "here's an Investiture-ex-machina to resolve any particular problem". Dropped-in magic isn't the crossover magic I've been waiting for.

Overall I felt the setup : payoff ratio was way too heavily weighted towards the former for a novel of this length and which caps off a distinct segment of the series. It's obviously incredibly subjective, but I felt this was the weakest Cosmere novel to date. Again, I liked the book, but there was some nontrivial drag.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Returned

[StormingTexan he/him]

@Returned Although not all of the things you mentioned bothered me I cannot disagree with any of your points. 

[Frustration he/him]

31 minutes ago, Returned said:

Overall I felt the setup : payoff was way too heavily weighted towards the former for a novel of this length and which caps off a distinct segment of the series. It's obviously incredibly subjective, but I felt this was the weakest Cosmere novel to date. Again, I liked the book, but there was some nontrivial drag.

While I don't know about weakest you have a point here. I remember after I finished RoW, and I felt ecstatic for days, but here the day later I felt rather meh about the whole thing.

[Elegy he/him]

• I love Steris, but her plot in this book felt kinda useless. I get that someone had to evacuate the city, but it still never came together in a satisfying way like, for example (similar word count, also in the final book), TenSoon's arc in Hero of Ages. There were several chapters with her that felt severely underdeveloped. TenSoon popping up in a very anticlimactic way and all the skeptics being like "oh, now we're changing our opinions" felt unearned, and the already infamous Bands scene that introduces a mystery that just fiddles out. Just very bewildering in general.
• The ending should have been less open-ended in my opinion, but I believe I understand what Brandon was going for. He has said that Wax & Wayne is some kind of prologue ot the huge second era of the Cosmere, the modern, more cosmere-centric era (the third and final era being space age Cosmere), so it makes sense that this story ends with the feeling of a new beginning along with the ending. But still, I am slightly worried for future Cosmere series endings (including Stormlight 5), because I have the subtle feeling that Brandon is kind of unable to actually end a story. It's come back to bite him a few times (with a Lux sequel being uncertain, and, most prominently, the promised Rithmatist sequel that still won't be out for years!) Sometimes I feel like he just hasn't been able to let go of any chance to prove to the readers that he can bind them to future entries of the series since Hero of Ages. But there is a reason why Hero of Ages is hailed as one of the best series endings of all time. Because it's complete. So please, Brandon, let this be an exception and give us actual series endings at the end of series in the future. It's really been a while.
• Not really a Lost Metal thing, but the book is completely overstuffed. North versus South, Elendel versus Belming. Ghostbloods, Aehters, the Set, Autonomy, Harmony, the Bands of Mourning, Marsh, TenSoon. It just stumbles under what it has to tell, even at 160,000 words long. I think it just shows the failings of the previous entries in the series. Things introduced both in SOS and BOM were mostly irrelevant, while the actually important stuff needed to be introduced in the FINAL BOOK, which just shows how poorly-planned this series was (for Brandon's standards). He should have introduced the Ghostbloods in SOS, all the Autonomy/Trell stuff in Bands of Mourning. Then these things would have been spaced out better instead of having three books of "fun adventures but few things of consequence happen" and then one books that has to do almost everything at once.
• Resulting from that, the whole sequence with the underground Community seemed like a huge thing that should have been explored further. It should have gotten a huge section of the book (like, Spook in Urteau level huge) instead of a few chapters. As it was, the sudden change of heart in the Allomancers seemed incredibly rushed. You don't just change the opinions of dozens of people who have been living a lie for years on end in the matter of minutes. It should have been a slow process, but this way it felt forced. And they could have had the time for that, if the previous books had done a better job setting up this book. like I stated above.

I still like this book for a lot of reasons, but these things didn't felt up to standard. After Rhythm of War, it's the second Cosmere book in a row that had parts that felt incomplete and not as well thought-out as I would like. Either way, I'm definitely relieved that Brandon stated he would take his time with Stormlight 5, because I really want that book to be more thorough and meticulous than these last two.

[Friendshipspren he/him]

On 12/3/2022 at 1:07 AM, StormingTexan said:

1) The Southern/Basin tension was built up pretty well in the beginning then just kinda fizzled out with the BoM scene that left a cliffhanger we will not see concluded for years.

2) I absolutely loved the Telsin twist in BoM and was really excited about the showdown but it honestly concluded a little underwhelming to me. Harmony interrupts her power or whatever from Autonomy and she lays down and dies. 

 

 

 

I was very dissappointed with telsins fate too. I was beginning to like her and relate to her. Wax must have been a pain in the ass when he was younger 

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, Friendshipspren said:

I was very dissappointed with telsins fate too. I was beginning to like her and relate to her. Wax must have been a pain in the ass when he was younger 

I'm not convinced we're see the last of her. Remember we know that autonomy is turn some of the set to cognitive shadows including her uncle so we might just see her again in era 3.

[Friendshipspren he/him]

On 12/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, bmcclure7 said:

I'm not convinced we're see the last of her. Remember we know that autonomy is turn some of the set to cognitive shadows including her uncle so we might just see her again in era 3.

Hope so but it didn't seem that autonomy was really interested in telsin . Hope I'm wrong 

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Friendshipspren said:

Hope so but it didn't seem that autonomy was really interested in telsin . Hope I'm wrong 

 To be fair she didn't seem quite that interestedid in her Uncle either yet she still made him a cognitive shadow. And she was interested enough that she was gonna make her an avatar. So it's at least possible. 

[trav]

Kelsier, who has become extremely aware of what goes on in the cosmere, gets so easily played by Sazed.

"He created Aitum, but not Lerasium. No explanation necessary."

"Okay then."

Hes not fully trusting his old friend anymore. Which would have been a way to write it off. So why is Kelsier buying this lie so easily. It really angered me.

I get why Brandon does not want to have full Feruchemists and Mistborn make a return. With current knowledge they would abuse those powers massively.

Then again, will all the spikes they gathered, and Harmony practically giving Wax a greenlight for using them, they could recreate Inquisitor like Allomancers and Feruchemists.
After reading the Ars Arcanum I have to change this. I dislike that Brandon felt the need to break Hemalurgy so as not to make it too powerful.

 

Next is that with Miles on their team before that the Set did not figure out compounding Gold would we a pretty sweat idea.

Which makes me think compounding was a mistake. It has such a crazy potential that Brandon needs to restrict it by not letting characters have it.

Same here. Compounding got broken for obvious reasons. Then again, chance of Twinborn compounders are way higher than what we get to see in the novel.

Edited December 22, 2022 by trav

[rabidhexley]

I overall loved Era 2. But I will say that with it ending the way it did it's pretty obvious that this was still fundamentally "Era 1.5". A prologue as Sanderson stated, with Era 3 actually going to be a true "Mistborn trilogy", with status-quo shifting events.

 

There's a lot of major revelations that occur, and information that will effect Mistborn and the Cosmere going forward. But it's ultimately all informational "how this came about" type stuff. We learn about Harmonium, Harmony's issues, Kelsier & The Ghostbloods, Southern Scadrial, Nicrosil metalminds, new Hemalurgy info, and other general Cosmere teasers, but basically none of this information actually plays out to any conclusion. Era 2 at the end of the day is still a transitionary plot that allowed us to get a bunch of information to better setup the original Era 2.

 

Still worthwhile to me at the end of the day since I enjoyed the story and characters a lot, and now Era 3 will have a really good jumping off point without needing to get the readers up to speed on so many developments.

 

If I had any major critiques it would be the anti-climax of Telsin, though I can see Sanderson's intention, she was more a symbol of Wax's internal struggles than an actual big bad in her own right. And the copycat characters did feel odd, though they made for good encounters.

Edited December 20, 2022 by rabidhexley

[i’m in the details he/him]

On 12/2/2022 at 3:07 PM, Returned said:

 

1. There were too many connections to the broader Cosmere that were there just for the sake of being there. Someone in another thread scolded me (rudely) for not being sufficiently excited about some of those connections and mentioned the Identity safe, for example. The safe is really cool, but didn't interact with the story in any way. It was there just to be there and have its properties described. I might as well have been reading Coppermind about it, not a novel. TwinSoul (a character I really liked!) mattered to the story but mainly in solving an arbitrary problem as soon as it appeared in a way that just happened to showcase his non-Scadrian abilities. Contrast with the potential Skybreakers at the end: they were present, their nature was hinted at but not bluntly blurted out, and they didn't get more attention than their role in the story demands. We're starting to lose the "here's a cool, novel way to apply specific, rules-based magic you know about that makes it useful in addressing problems" approach to "here's an Investiture-ex-machina to resolve any particular problem". Dropped-in magic isn't the crossover magic I've been waiting for.

 

This. I have been having trouble defining my problem with the book in my head but this sums it up perfectly. I love crossovers, I love seeing other systems and magics represented, but the way they were presented in this book felt like I was reading the mfing coppermind. 

It is important to note that this is really BS' first book writing a full crossover type story. He will absolutely get better at it as time progresses.

[Frustration he/him]

This is kind of an extension of a RoW problem, but I've noticed recently that some characters(Marasi and Navani) get to the end of the book and suddenly develop self-doubt, without it affecting any other point in the book, only for them to immediately get over it.

[NameIess]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

This is kind of an extension of a RoW problem, but I've noticed recently that some characters(Marasi and Navani) get to the end of the book and suddenly develop self-doubt, without it affecting any other point in the book, only for them to immediately get over it.

RoW spoilers:

Spoiler

Navani's self-doubt was set up throughout the book. She refused to consider herself a scholar, and constantly saw herself as inferior to the scholars she led.

 

[Frustration he/him]

27 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

RoW spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Navani's self-doubt was set up throughout the book. She refused to consider herself a scholar, and constantly saw herself as inferior to the scholars she led.

 

Spoiler

But it didn't impact the story. You could remove those few mentions and the story wouldn't change at all.

 

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

  Reveal hidden contents

But it didn't impact the story. You could remove those few mentions and the story wouldn't change at all.

 

Spoiler

It impacted Navani and her character. Remove those "few mentions" and her character becomes static. 

 

[Frustration he/him]

11 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

  Reveal hidden contents

It impacted Navani and her character. Remove those "few mentions" and her character becomes static. 

 

Spoiler

Um, it is already, there was no change. Unless you want to argue that her no longer saying she isn't a scholar counts as growth.

 

[therunner he/him]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Um, it is already, there was no change. Unless you want to argue that her no longer saying she isn't a scholar counts as growth.

 

Spoiler

There was a change though, Navani at the start of the book is someone who when having an idea would suggest it to her scholars but would not really expect much to come of it ,and would believe she herself cannot work on it.
Navani throught the book was forced to do science herself, despite her own misgivings about her talent, and she ended up with arguably one of the greatest discoveries in the Cosmere so far, anti-Investiture.
Navani at the end of the book is someone who when having an idea would explore it on her own (or in cooperation with others) and is therefore that much more effective for it.