Trellium Vs Bavadium

[IndigoAjah]

Throughout the book, even when it's made clear to the characters (and us) that Trell is an aspect at least of Autonomy, we see the associated God Metal referred to as Trellium.

This feels deliberate to me. Even Telsin uses that word. So is Trellium different to Bavadium, in concept?

 

Now, I'm not sure we know exactly how Autonomy's multi-avatar approach works. We know some are representatives like Telsin invested with her power, and some are aspects of her, small pieces of her power which sound like Splinters. But the idea of Autonomy as a whole... Is that the consciousness of the main collection of her power that hasn't broken off yet? Or is there a collective goal and consciousness across Avatars, and if so do the ones that are pieces of her have their own unique consciousness or not?

 

To what degree is Trell autonomous from Autonomy? Harmonium can, it's implied, be split into Atium and Lerasium but exists in its own right. Can Bavadium be split beyond the level of individual Shards, into Avatarmetals, and so is Trellium different to what true Bavadium, or another Avatarmetal of Autonomy, might be?

[Requiem17]

Sazed says this at the end: 

Quote

“It appears that if you detonate harmonium against trellium—or, I suppose bavadinium would be its true name—it creates some small amount of atium as a by-product.”

This is like Shadesmar vs Cognitive Realm vocabulary. People in world are going to have a name for it which is not it's most correct name. 

[Kasimir]

On 11/19/2022 at 10:11 AM, IndigoAjah said:

This feels deliberate to me. Even Telsin uses that word. So is Trellium different to Bavadium, in concept?

What Harmony says seems to imply it is just about terminology. But I do wonder: just the red spectra issue and the rusty red appearance. Maybe it's coincidental, but the fact that we're told repeatedly it's the colour of corrupted Investiture makes me wonder what spectra bavadinium—not the trellium available on Scadrial—gives.

[teonvin]

9 hours ago, Requiem17 said:

Sazed says this at the end: 

This is like Shadesmar vs Cognitive Realm vocabulary. People in world are going to have a name for it which is not it's most correct name. 

Which is really weird by itself, because if Sazed wants to be a stickler for proper technical term, then shouldn't harmonium be sazedium too?

[lacrossedeamon]

but then does Raysium become Taravangianium? what about shards with two names?

[teonvin]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

but then does Raysium become Taravangianium? what about shards with two names?

Then I guess maybe Sazed merely means Trellium is wrong because that's not Autonomy's name?

No matter which naming method you use (Shared vs vessel), Trellium is wrong, either Bavadium or Autonomium works, but Trellium is flat out wrong.

I do wonder if Taravangian made the nature of the metal changed, since he would likely be a very different Odium

 

[IndigoAjah]

Saze THINKS Trellium is wrong 

[Leuthie]

My take: A Shard's Investiture probably coalesces into (slightly) different metals in different systems/planets. Much in the same way that the magic system resulting from a Shard's presence will be different in one system than it would be in another. The effects of Investiture are affected by the system.

So Trellium and Bavadium would be different metals because they coalesce in different places.

[Isilel]

On 21 November 2022 at 2:52 AM, Kasimir said:

the rusty red appearance. Maybe it's coincidental, but the fact that we're told repeatedly it's the colour of corrupted Investiture

So, the spike _is_ corrupted investiture - it is Autonomy's metal used for Ruin's Art and charged with Preservation's investiture. No idea about the red in harmonium's spectrum, though. 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I personally think they are diffrent, if only minorly, after all Autonomy calls it “your metal” when talking to Wax’s Sister, and it connects the wearer to her, instead of Autonomy.

[StanLemon]

My biggest issues with Trellium being Bavadinium is the red spectra after years of being told red is the color of corrupted Investiture, and that it is just as good if not better in Hemalurgy as Atium

[Elegy]

27 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

My biggest issues with Trellium being Bavadinium is the red spectra after years of being told red is the color of corrupted Investiture, and that it is just as good if not better in Hemalurgy as Atium

Investiture color schemings don't seem to apply when in metal form. Atium is described as silver despite the appearance of Ruin's Investiture being black.

I generally think that Brandon putting in the Sazed line is basically as close to a confirmation as we could have gotten. There is no reason for him to be sneaky about this and misleading us. To me, it basically felt like him winking at us the fans like, "yeah, don't worry guys, it's actually Bavadium".

Plus, a new metal for each avatar on top of one for each Shard is just a completely crazy thought imo

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Investiture color schemings don't seem to apply when in metal form. Atium is described as silver despite the appearance of Ruin's Investiture being black.

I wasn't talking about the metal, but the color that was most prevalent in the spectrograph which WAS red. 

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I wasn't talking about the metal, but the color that was most prevalent in the spectrograph which WAS red. 

Tbf if each shard has color associated with them, someone might have red one. 

But a Trellium spike had hemalurgic charge from spiking someone and stealing their feruchamical and allomantic powers. So it contains Harmony investiture, corrupting it = red spots on metal and red in spectrograph.

[StanLemon]

Just now, alder24 said:

Tbf if each shard has color associated with them, someone might have red one. 

But a Trellium spike had hemalurgic charge from spiking someone and stealing their feruchamical and allomantic powers. So it contains Harmony investiture, corrupting it = red spots on metal and red in spectrograph.

And your basis for this is? If this was the case, every use of Hemalurgy would be doing this, especially if Allomancy is taken

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And your basis for this is? If this was the case, every use of Hemalurgy would be doing this, especially if Allomancy is taken

Allomancy was formed as the result of interactions between Ruin and Preservation, so no corruption is happening here. 

Spoiler

Agate

I can guess two possible options for the kandra.

1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.

2. Some of the kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.

I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.

Brandon Sanderson

The kandra.

Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)

However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who—like Ruin—can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the kandra will end up playing in future books.

Kaimipono

On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

But, true, that's just my speculations.

[StanLemon]

If it was just the red coloration I probably wouldn't have the issues with it I do, it's that it also acts like Atium in Hemalurgy 

[cometaryorbit]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:44 PM, Elegy said:

I generally think that Brandon putting in the Sazed line is basically as close to a confirmation as we could have gotten. There is no reason for him to be sneaky about this and misleading us. To me, it basically felt like him winking at us the fans like, "yeah, don't worry guys, it's actually Bavadium".

I agree. Trellium = bavadinium, and Brandon is using Sazed to confirm that. They started with the term trellium since they didn't at first know what Shard was behind Trell.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 12/30/2022 at 3:44 PM, Elegy said:

I generally think that Brandon putting in the Sazed line is basically as close to a confirmation as we could have gotten. There is no reason for him to be sneaky about this and misleading us. To me, it basically felt like him winking at us the fans like, "yeah, don't worry guys, it's actually Bavadium".

Plus, a new metal for each avatar on top of one for each Shard is just a completely crazy thought imo

Yeah I agree. Getting a 17th godmetal in harmonium already complicates things, if we started seeing godmetals for avatars it gets exponentially more complicated fast. That definitely felt like something put in there to say "no that's not what's happening here".

On 12/30/2022 at 4:14 PM, StanLemon said:

And your basis for this is? If this was the case, every use of Hemalurgy would be doing this, especially if Allomancy is taken

I think the corruption only comes because it's a *godmetal* charged with hemalurgy (specifically, the godmetal of a shard that has nothing to do with hemalurgy). It's solid investiture of one shard charged with the investiture of another. If you were just charging, say, a goldspike I don't think that would creare corrupted investiture, that would just be Ruin investiture. I also don't get the sense that taking Allomancy inherently counts as corruption, though admittedly I can't articulate why.

[+Child of Hodor]

It's Autonomium. We have no evidence that the vessel matters at all when it comes to the nature of the Shard's investiture. Atium and Lerasium were just a way to sneak the vessel names in to the original series I don't put any meaning into those names beyond that. "Trellium" was used to hide the fact it's Autonomy behind things. 

Atium, when separated out, still does the same thing in Era 2 as it did in Era 1, as far as we can tell. Leras died in the middle of Hero of Ages and Kelsier was briefly, sort of, holding Preservation, allomancy didn't work any differently, the mists didn't change color or behave any differently. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Yeah I agree. Getting a 17th godmetal in harmonium already complicates things, if we started seeing godmetals for avatars it gets exponentially more complicated fast. That definitely felt like something put in there to say "no that's not what's happening here".

Well, even with just the sixteen shards, and them combining adds up to a number higher than the number of atoms in the milky way galaxy.

3 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

It's Autonomium. We have no evidence that the vessel matters at all when it comes to the nature of the Shard's investiture. Atium and Lerasium were just a way to sneak the vessel names in to the original series I don't put any meaning into those names beyond that. "Trellium" was used to hide the fact it's Autonomy behind things. 

The vessel does matter, and can in fact change shardmetals

Spoiler

Questioner

When a Shard changes hands, does the god-metal change names and/or properties?

Brandon Sanderson

It can. It doesn't as a rule.

Questioner

So it'll still be raysium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Well, the name, you would change the name, probably. But it shouldn't necessarily do anything different. The name that it's given is cultural. So you could continue to call it that. People might call it that. I think people in-world would call it something else. But depends on the person.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well, even with just the sixteen shards, and them combining adds up to a number higher than the number of atoms in the milky way galaxy.

That sounds fun, I want to see the math!

Edit: There is approximately 10^67 atoms in our galaxy, so I don't think that's possible to get that number with 16 god metals alloyed with 16 base metals + 15 god metals.

Edited January 4, 2023 by alder24

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

That sounds fun, I want to see the math!

Edit: There is approximately 10^67 atoms in our galaxy, so I don't think that's possible to get that number with 16 god metals alloyed with 16 base metals + 15 god metals.

Check out "The Ultimate Metal Count" thread in the Mistborn forum.

I'll let you see the shenanigans that ensued.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Frustration

[cometaryorbit]

Basically it gets crazy once you start alloying the metal of combined (Honor+Devotion+Ruin+Invention) with the metal of combined (Dominion+Odium+Preservation+Autonomy+Whimsy) or stuff like that.

[lacrossedeamon]

Can Godmetals have "isotopes"? What if each of Autonomy's Avatars have its own "isotope" of Bavadium?