How Harmony could break his deadlock and act

[Vin(Diesel)]

Harmony is currently having trouble acting, because he is limited by the conflicting intentions of Ruin and Preservation.

Consider Ruin and Preservation as two parties in a negotiation with each other. Since they are equally strong, they are at an impasse. Imagine a third, much weaker party joins the negotiation. Say, a pinch of Devotion's Investiture.  As was mentioned in Mistborn Era 1, in a negotiation involving three parties, the weakest party is actually the most powerful, because each of the stronger parties needs the weakest party on its side to defeat the other strong party. 

So if Sazed had a splinter of Devotion, then whenever Ruin and Preservation were deadlocked, Devotion's splinter would break the tie.

Obviously, Sazed would want to choose Investiture carefully for this purpose, since his Intent would probably become a watered-down version of the third Shard. Devotion would probably be fine. Odium would not.

The original Vessels would probably be opposed to such a plan, because it is moving toward a re-unified Adonalsium. They should see, however, that it only slightly enhances Sazed's Investiture power, and might greatly increase his freedom, since the Intent of whatever Investiture he eats a pinch of might be so diluted by the neutral Intent of Harmony that Sazed's will might be able to steer the new Intent quite a lot. As far as I know, the Vessels have no problem with freedom, though they may object on the grounds that it gives Sazed too much power in practice.

What do you think?

Edited November 17, 2022 by Vin(Diesel)

[Vin(Diesel)]

Here's my rough ranking of Shards, from best to break the deadlock to worst:

1. Devotion
2. Honor
3. Mercy
4. Endowment
5. Cultivation
6. Invention
7. Virtuosity
8. Valor
9. Whimsy
10. Ambition
11. Autonomy
12. Dominion
13. Odium

Devotion and Dominion's investiture may be inseparable now as the Dor, which might make a decent candidate. Wisdom or Prudence might be fine if either exists. If Survival exists, it would be low mediocre. 

I could have ranked Autonomy ahead of Ambition on the theory that Bavadin has influenced the Shard's Intent for the worse. Autonomy could, I'd like to think, have ended up supporting people who make themselves able to live without assistance from others, maybe even those who are independent and therefore more free to help others. But Ambition's Vessel might be able to influence Ambition into a good thing too, even though a bad Vessel could probably make Ambition into a ruthless and selfish thing. 

Mercy might be considerably worse than I'm giving it credit for. It depends on how much wisdom its vessel can show. Mercy without wisdom might just be permissiveness and therefore be effectively anarchist in its method of governance - or lack of governance. It also depends on whether mercy is defined to include positive action - generosity, grace - or just forbearance from punishing wrongdoers. 

Cultivation might be better than Endowment, but Endowment seems to be capable of showing discretion with regard to who she endows with things. As far as we've seen so far, Cultivation may just be cultivating everything indiscriminately. So I ranked Endowment first. 

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

I think cultivation would work the best. It would allow for the middle ground between the extremes. Cultivation is about ecosystems and growth, which would go well. 
 

whimsy might actually work too. It might allow harmony to just do some things randomly without caring about consequences or intents. 

[TheTuninator]

It sounds like part of Sazed's issue right now is that he is actually favoring the Preservation side over the Ruin side. Looking forward to learning more about that. It may be that more fully embracing Ruin as well will give him more freedom to act in the long run.

[TheOneKEA]

Personally I think the best way to fix the imbalance is for Harmony to directly expend Their Ruinous Investiture in some way that separates it from Their Cognitive perception, and prevents it from easily returning to the Shard. During Era Two, I was expecting Them to use the excess Investiture to modify the spirit webs of the kandra and mistwraiths so that they would no longer depend on Hemalurgy to be sapient.

Now that we know that Hemalurgic expressions of the Metallic Arts are being suppressed in order to prevent a hemalurgist from performing Compounding, it seems that the most likely outcome would be a deliberate Splintering of the Ruin Shard by forcibly Investing someone with Hemalurgic spikes and then pulling the spikes out and tossing them into a blood bag inside of a Pulser bubble, so that the Investiture is sequestered. It would be pretty gross and brutal but we have WoBs that support this hypothesized way to get some of the Ruin Shard’s Investiture away from it.

[Karger he/him]

You are of course assuming that Harmony wants the deadlock broken.  Its debatable that the shards generally have done a lot of good by being active in the first place.  I also don't think that messing with Harmony would be that easy.  Investiture resists investiture.  Finally the more active the intent is the less Sazed himself would be in control of his own mind an actions.  I'm not sure that is a good thing.

[Vin(Diesel)]

12 hours ago, Karger said:

Finally the more active the intent is the less Sazed himself would be in control of his own mind an actions.  I'm not sure that is a good thing.

That might be the case, but the more types of Investiture involved, the more their Intents balance each other. If all Intents were involved, it would create a balanced personality that would allow for the mental freedom that, I assume, Adonalsium had, rather than the skewed fixations that rule the Vessels.

You might need all the Shards before you got that benefit, but I suspect it would often be more gradual than that. Mixing Ruin and Preservation seems to give Sazed some internal freedom, and combining other Shards would probably work the same way, though to a lesser extent. Ruin and Preservation are opposites, so they balance each other. Honor-Valor would provide much less freedom, though I suspect they would give a Vessel a little more flexibility than either Shard alone would. Same for combinations like Ruin-Odium, Autonomy-Whimsy and Honor-Devotion. But combos like Devotion-Autonomy and Odium-Mercy would be more like Harmony because each Intent is so different. The more Shards involved in a combo, the likelier any Intent will be at least partly balanced by one or more of the others. Honor-Ruin-Preservation-Mercy might even allow more freedom than Harmony. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Vin(Diesel)

[Leuthie]

I think what Brandon is setting up here is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for every Shard, exemplified through Sazed. He wants to be a benevolent deity but his actions are forced by the Intents of the powers he holds. If he chooses to do nothing, The Investiture he controls will act on its own, or an outside force with it's own Intent will act. There's even the possibility that by choosing to not act, an Intent is still supported or denied making even inaction impossible in the long run.

[Vin(Diesel)]

9 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I think what Brandon is setting up here is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for every Shard, exemplified through Sazed. He wants to be a benevolent deity but his actions are forced by the Intents of the powers he holds. If he chooses to do nothing, The Investiture he controls will act on its own, or an outside force with it's own Intent will act. There's even the possibility that by choosing to not act, an Intent is still supported or denied making even inaction impossible in the long run.

Interesting. Any theories on how that will be resolved (or how things will end if it isn't resolved)?

[Leuthie]

4 hours ago, Vin(Diesel) said:

Interesting. Any theories on how that will be resolved (or how things will end if it isn't resolved)?

Dragonsteel and the final Mistborn will have to firmly and finally address the true implications of the Shattering, so this is moving that narrative forward. What are the full ramifications of entities controlling pieces of God? In the case of Sazed, what about holding multiple pieces that are in conflict? Basically, your question goes to the final outcome of the overall Cosmere narrative.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

We still don't know what Sazed is doing with all that extra Ruin.

I'm thinking he's creating an Avatar (discord), but in a splintering fashion and not 50 / 50 so he's still more powerful.

Kinda like he's splintered a 3rd of his investiture favouring Ruin and cloned himself.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/17/2022 at 1:11 PM, Vin(Diesel) said:

Harmony is currently having trouble acting, because he is limited by the conflicting intentions of Ruin and Preservation.

Consider Ruin and Preservation as two parties in a negotiation with each other. Since they are equally strong, they are at an impasse. Imagine a third, much weaker party joins the negotiation. Say, a pinch of Devotion's Investiture.  As was mentioned in Mistborn Era 1, in a negotiation involving three parties, the weakest party is actually the most powerful, because each of the stronger parties needs the weakest party on its side to defeat the other strong party. 

So if Sazed had a splinter of Devotion, then whenever Ruin and Preservation were deadlocked, Devotion's splinter would break the tie.

Obviously, Sazed would want to choose Investiture carefully for this purpose, since his Intent would probably become a watered-down version of the third Shard. Devotion would probably be fine. Odium would not.

The original Vessels would probably be opposed to such a plan, because it is moving toward a re-unified Adonalsium. They should see, however, that it only slightly enhances Sazed's Investiture power, and might greatly increase his freedom, since the Intent of whatever Investiture he eats a pinch of might be so diluted by the neutral Intent of Harmony that Sazed's will might be able to steer the new Intent quite a lot. As far as I know, the Vessels have no problem with freedom, though they may object on the grounds that it gives Sazed too much power in practice.

What do you think?

 Change devotion to Autonomy and that might explain how he will become discord. 

[Letryx13]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:05 PM, Karger said:

You are of course assuming that Harmony wants the deadlock broken.  Its debatable that the shards generally have done a lot of good by being active in the first place.  I also don't think that messing with Harmony would be that easy.  Investiture resists investiture.  Finally the more active the intent is the less Sazed himself would be in control of his own mind an actions.  I'm not sure that is a good thing.

I agree with that. I don't think breaking the deadlock is such a good idea, unless they can be sure it's done in a positive way.  Having a stable, neutral Shard could be a very positive thing in the cosmere. Autonomy took action because she perceived Harmony and Scadrial as a threat, not because she thought Sazed would turn into something that would be a threat.

I hope Sazed doesn't become Discord, but it's the threat of it happening and finding a solution that ends up being the next major plot in MistBorn era 3.

[Isilel]

21 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I hope Sazed doesn't become Discord, but it's the threat of it happening and finding a solution that ends up being the next major plot in MistBorn era 3.

Yes, we have already had several instances of a Shard "breaking bad" and a Vessel getting overwhelmed by it's Intent, having the same thing happen to Harmony and Sazed would be repetitive. 

In addition, in Sixth of the Dusk the Ones Above clearly try to adhere to the letter of some kind of non-interference law, which feels very Pathian, while violating it's spirit. It would be novel if in the case of future Scadrians, the problem won't be their Shard, but their people. 

[SteelBagel]

On 11/18/2022 at 11:12 PM, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

We still don't know what Sazed is doing with all that extra Ruin.

I'm thinking he's creating an Avatar (discord), but in a splintering fashion and not 50 / 50 so he's still more powerful.

Kinda like he's splintered a 3rd of his investiture favouring Ruin and cloned himself.

Maybe. I feel like Sazed wouldn't want an evil clone wandering around with 2/3 of infinite power. Besides, who's to say he did anything at all with that extra investiture, maybe he's forcibly keeping it under control via force of will, but it's slowly overwhelming him, turning him into Discord.

[ftl]

On 11/21/2022 at 7:53 AM, Letryx13 said:

 Having a stable, neutral Shard could be a very positive thing in the cosmere.

I'm not so sure of that. The way things are going, I think *all* Shards are going to be a negative force in the Cosmere when left alone for a while. A mortal mind that's been overpowered  by a single divine Intent is going to be dangerous regardless of what that Intent is. People and societies are complicated, and a god that's driven to maximize just one single quality is going to make life worse for the world no matter what that single quality is.

Yes, sometimes it might be helpful to have one Shard fight off another Shard whose danger is more immediate, but that's a stopgap measure or an alliance of convenience, even the "ally" Shard is going to become a problem sooner or later.

[+Child of Hodor]

Kill Bavadin. Take Autonomy. Then he'll be free to act. Really any of them will work. Might take after Bavadin by expressing Ruin and Preservation in separate Avatars. Maybe that's already a thing he is thinking about with the "shadow" Sazed that Kelsier senses.  I notice someone's already thought of this. 

On 11/18/2022 at 10:12 PM, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

We still don't know what Sazed is doing with all that extra Ruin.

I'm thinking he's creating an Avatar (discord), but in a splintering fashion and not 50 / 50 so he's still more powerful.

Kinda like he's splintered a 3rd of his investiture favouring Ruin and cloned himself.

 

[Rorzikel]

I'd be surprised if Sazed could win against Autonomy, vessel against vessel. She's got like ten thousand years of experience on him and she's very active and willing to engage in aggression.

[Letryx13]

9 hours ago, ftl said:

I'm not so sure of that. The way things are going, I think *all* Shards are going to be a negative force in the Cosmere when left alone for a while. A mortal mind that's been overpowered  by a single divine Intent is going to be dangerous regardless of what that Intent is. People and societies are complicated, and a god that's driven to maximize just one single quality is going to make life worse for the world no matter what that single quality is.

Yes, sometimes it might be helpful to have one Shard fight off another Shard whose danger is more immediate, but that's a stopgap measure or an alliance of convenience, even the "ally" Shard is going to become a problem sooner or later.

That’s the point. If Preservation and Ruin truly balanced each other perfectly, their intents cancel each other out. The problem is maintaining that balance, which Sazed has struggled with from the start. And he is starting to lose control over. I only hope it can be stopped before things go too far, or can be fixed afterward. 
Besides, what about Honor?

[BinarySecond]

I think Sazed trying to moderate the influence of Ruin in his "works" is strictly time limited. Purely because he can't keep it up forever.

If he's suppressing Hemalurgy, for example, that's an effort of will against the Intent and it's going to push back.

Ideally he needs to find a suitable outlet for the requirements of holding Ruin, I think.

Having a lowercase-A avatar like Wax allows him to act in the world but by the end of TLM I think Wax is an even better representation for Harmony given that he's spiked.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

On 22.11.2022 at 10:53 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Kill Bavadin. Take Autonomy

Autonomy is probably the worst idea, because this intent would tear Harmony apart. He would fight not just to maintain the balance, but also not to split himself.

On 23.11.2022 at 4:31 AM, Letryx13 said:

Besides, what about Honor?

This is actually my favorite. For two reasons.

First, Honor is Shard of Rules, Restrictions and Comands. So, with this one Intent combine, Sazed should be able to set rules when his Preservation Intent works, and when Ruin.

Second, Honor is already splintered, dont have Vessel, and is not mixed with other Shard. Should be easier to pick part of it. Of course, it will not be easy at all, but easier than with other Shards.