Kaladin is most certainly not lucky

[S. Stormy she/her]

So, I just find it funny that everyone(everyone in-world) sees Kaladin as lucky, when he most certainly is not, in my opinion. Take the fact that all the reasons people think he's lucky(surviving the storm, surviving the chasms, surviving being a bridgeman) were caused by Stormlight. 

So take all those "lucky" things... look at his life otherwise... and you have a very unlucky dude.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

Take the fact that all the reasons people think he's lucky(surviving the storm, surviving the chasms, surviving being a bridgeman) were caused by Stormlight. 

Actually, Kaladin was first nicknamed "Stormblessed" back in Amaram's army; long before his use of Stormlight. Not that it was based on luck; since he:

1. Trained very hard after Tien's death
2. Spent almost all of his time and money protecting his squad
3. Developed the skills and tactics needed to "read" the battlefield and adjust his strategy

However, all of that combined to confer the nickname since his squad always had the fewest casualties - hence "Kaladin was lucky". . .

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

So you might say that Kaladin made his own luck.

[SpinningSky he/him]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Actually, Kaladin was first nicknamed "Stormblessed" back in Amaram's army; long before his use of Stormlight. Not that it was based on luck; since he:

1. Trained very hard after Tien's death
2. Spent almost all of his time and money protecting his squad
3. Developed the skills and tactics needed to "read" the battlefield and adjust his strategy

However, all of that combined to confer the nickname since his squad always had the fewest casualties - hence "Kaladin was lucky". . .

Well technically at the time he was in Amaram's army Syl was starting to bond him, and while he wasn't using stormlight (possibily a tiny amount unconsciously), he probably already had some very small advantages due to the bond, the same way Shallan is unnaturally good at drawing and remembering images.
Of course he still did all the things you said and deserved all of it, but he already was a bit "luckier" than the others at that time I reckon.

I think it creates a nice Cosmere wide parallaler with Vin's "luck" in Mistborn

 

6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So you might say that Kaladin made his own luck.

If he wasn't who he was, his father teachings being a big part of it, Syl wouldn't have "chosen" him, so yes, either way

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 minute ago, SpinningSky said:

I think it creates a nice Cosmere wide parallaler with Vin's "luck" in Mistborn

 

I didn't even think about that comparision.

All of the Protagonists are pretty 'lucky' in their own ways, even better even is that it doesn't really feel like Plot Armor.

[Returned]

I think that what we describe as "luck" works differently in the Cosmere, particularly for main characters.

The way we usually use the word in the real world is basically a backwards-looking evaluation of what outcomes might have happened, and when those outcomes are mostly good (especially when unlikely or occurring without explicit effort) we say the person is "lucky". And often project that forward into future actions.

In the Cosmere we have constant interference from Shards and their agents, plus Fortune, which seem to prune the branches of possible futures in ways that push characters towards particular situations and outcomes. Kalading may not be "lucky" in that he wound up in terrible situations, but those situations are also (probably) largely necessary to make him who he is and position him where he is.

If we look at it in the real-world sense I'd agree he's not all that lucky, but if we take it as a given that powerful forces were going to put him in rough situations no matter what then his continued success in those situations seems pretty lucky to me. But yeah, I can see why Kaladin bristles at the description and has thought of himself as cursed rather than fortunate.

[Inspector Morgue]

14 hours ago, Returned said:

If we look at it in the real-world sense I'd agree he's not all that lucky, but if we take it as a given that powerful forces were going to put him in rough situations no matter what then his continued success in those situations seems pretty lucky to me. But yeah, I can see why Kaladin bristles at the description and has thought of himself as cursed rather than fortunate.

Another good example is Dalinar Kholin who was influenced by all three shards that were on Roshar. Honor, Cultivation and Odium.

[S. Stormy she/her]

22 hours ago, Returned said:

prune the branches of possible futures

Been watching a little Loki, have we?  

[Returned]

4 hours ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

Been watching a little Loki, have we?  

Believe it or not, I've never seen an episode of it! That's just the metaphor I've used for trying to make use of seeing the future Cosmere. Given that the in-universe description we've gotten is a shattering window that spreads out more and more the further forward you look it seems like the most practical way to get the outcomes you want and avoid the ones you don't. And mixing metaphors is always a good idea, right?

[Odiumiumium he/him]

On 9/13/2022 at 5:27 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

All of the Protagonists are pretty 'lucky' in their own ways, even better even is that it doesn't really feel like Plot Armor.

Ahh, but it is plot armor, you just don't see it. Unless your story is Game of Thrones where characters not dying is more surprising than surviving, almost all characters have plot armor (I watched a single 20 minute video on writing plot armor and am now a certified professional.)

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

3 hours ago, Odiumiumium said:

Ahh, but it is plot armor, you just don't see it. Unless your story is Game of Thrones where characters not dying is more surprising than surviving, almost all characters have plot armor (I watched a single 20 minute video on writing plot armor and am now a certified professional.)

Yeah I know they have Plot Armor, it's kind of necessary in most stories, it's just that it doesn't feel like actual Plot Armor most of the time, because they struggle, they get knocked down and they do lose and badly sometimes, but their strength and development feels earned. They ain't Mary Sues is what I'm sayin.

[bmcclure7]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:52 PM, Shallan Stormblessed said:

So, I just find it funny that everyone(everyone in-world) sees Kaladin as lucky, when he most certainly is not, in my opinion. Take the fact that all the reasons people think he's lucky(surviving the storm, surviving the chasms, surviving being a bridgeman) were caused by Stormlight. 

So take all those "lucky" things... look at his life otherwise... and you have a very unlucky dude.

Strongly disagree he survived 10 failed attempts to escape slavery.  That's lucky. 

[Odiumiumium he/him]

3 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Strongly disagree he survived 10 failed attempts to escape slavery.  That's lucky. 

Then again, he was enslaved and then caught each time. I think he's extremely unlucky, but he's just really really skilled. And possibly stormlight. 

 

[S. Stormy she/her]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Strongly disagree he survived 10 failed attempts to escape slavery.  That's lucky. 

But ?everyone? but him was killed each time. Was it everyone but him each time? If so... dang. That's a lot of trauma.

Quote

enslaved and then caught each time

*caught and then enslaved

Edited September 16, 2022 by Shallan Stormblessed

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

But ?everyone? but him was killed each time. Was it everyone but him each time? If so... dang. That's a lot of trauma.

*caught and then enslaved

Traumatic yes but also lucky. Yes he was caught of course but each time he they killed everyone else but spared him 10 TIMES!

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Traumatic yes but also lucky. Yes he was caught of course but each time he they killed everyone else but spared him 10 TIMES!

We can't know the truth of this. All we really know for sure is:

• He attempted to escape a total of ten times
  • He did not actually manage to escape all ten attempts
• He had at least six "owners" (including Tvalkv)
• The last time, he was the sole survivor
  • Which is when Shash was added to his brand
• At least once, he was the sole escapee

There is no data on the other 8 escape attempts other than that they happened.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAGF

[S. Stormy she/her]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:52 PM, Treamayne said:

There is no data on the other 8 escape attempts other than that they happened.

Well, technically there's a WoB that said that Katarotam killed friends of Kaladin's. I think. I'd look it up, but I'm in school right now, so I probably shouldn't.

[The Stormuncle]

It makes me think of John Constantine in DC comics. He battles the forces of hell putting himself in danger, and constantly almost dies. His loved ones die instead. It’s at least insinuated that he unconsciously steals his loved ones luck. This is why they die instead of him. Because he is “lucky”. Bad luck to get in the situations, and lucky to survive indeed.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, The Stormuncle said:

It makes me think of John Constantine in DC comics. He battles the forces of hell putting himself in danger, and constantly almost dies. His loved ones die instead. It’s at least insinuated that he unconsciously steals his loved ones luck. This is why they die instead of him. Because he is “lucky”. Bad luck to get in the situations, and lucky to survive indeed.

Sounds similar to the Night Angel Trilogy (Brent Weeks). Spoiler:

Spoiler

The first time Kylar dies he finds out he can go back because the Kakarifir is immortal. It isn't until Book 3 he learns that the fine print is that every time he returns to his healed body, somebody he loves dies in his stead.

 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Realising that Kaladin had been redirecting the arrows into the bridge always leaves a bad taste on my mouth the more I reread WoK. It takes a lot away from kal, because you think it's his leadership skills and ingenuity that saves the bridge men, but in reality it was his latent surgebinding. Kal would not have lasted more than 4 weeks Max in the bridge crews otherwise, if he was a vanilla mortal. So yes Kaladin is very lucky.

[HSuperLee he/him]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Realising that Kaladin had been redirecting the arrows into the bridge always leaves a bad taste on my mouth the more I reread WoK. It takes a lot away from kal, because you think it's his leadership skills and ingenuity that saves the bridge men, but in reality it was his latent surgebinding. Kal would not have lasted more than 4 weeks Max in the bridge crews otherwise, if he was a vanilla mortal. So yes Kaladin is very lucky.

I mean I would advise against seeing this as a binary. Remember in WoR that Kaladin complained that Syl helping him be better with a spear was cheating, and Syl responded that even if he had some advantage, he still worked himself half to death getting good with it and perfecting his technique. Kal's leadership and ingenuity did save the bridge men. Stormlight certainly didn't give him the idea of feeding them stew and exercising even on their days off. Yes, the stormlight helped, but so subtly that no one even noticed. But even with that in mind, we can't separate Kaladin the Radiant from Kaladin the man, they're the same person and, based on Syl's comments about knowing him before they met, he always has been Kaladin the Radiant, even before Syl woke up. His use of stormlight is part of his ingenuity and leadership skills, even when he didn't know it.

I think this might be where the idea of Kaladin being destined to be good with a spear and then resonating backwards kind of comes in play. In the Cosmere, the idea of who you could be isn't really a thing. Yeah, futuresight shows a bunch of different possibilities, but I also don't think alternate timelines actually exist. Future sight shows what could be, but that doesn't mean there's a difference between that and what is. I apologize because I'm about to go into philosophical semi-nonsense, but in the Cosmere everyone has someone they're meant to be, this is their ideal self. People see glimpses of it when they view the Spirit Realm, such as when healed by an enlightened Truthwatcher. Personally, I disagree with Sanderson about how much influence a cognitive aspect should have over the manifestation of that ideal, but Sanderson and I probably disagree on the fundamental philosophy of that decision anyway, so its not particularly relevant. My point is, there is a man Kaladin is supposed to be and all his life has either been moving towards or away from that. Becoming a Knight Radiant acted as a major stepping stone to becoming that man, in part because being invested helps draw the three aspects of a person closer together. Kaladin's luck, skill, and circumstances are probably all manifestations of moving closer or further to that ideal of the man he could be. This is what I think destiny means in the Cosmere: who you're supposed to be. Maybe you don't necessarily become that person. Maybe its not even possible for a person to totally fulfill their destiny, and a partial success is all one can hope for. Am I saying Kaladin is personally responsible for the circumstances that have led to his losses and pains? No, of course not. But there is something to be said about them all happening because Kaladin is who he is. He attempted and failed ten escape attempts because He's Kaladin freaking Stormblessed, and he can't tolerate oppression and restriction. He's so good with a spear and has survived where no one else did because he's Kaladin freaking Stormblessed, and he's a survivor and a fighter. He succeeded in saving Bridge Four because he's Kaladin freaking Stormblessed, and he protects those who cannot protect themselves. In every situation he made the decision he would make because he is him. We can't take credit away from him for making those decision any more than we can fault him for the circumstances in which he made them.

So what am I really saying, in non-rambling terms about Kaladin's luck? I guess I'd just have to say that Kaladin's life is more than a summation of the good and bad things that he's experienced and to condense all those down to luck is unfair considering everything Kaladin has done to change his life, and everything other people have done to change it. Kaladin's life is the result of the decisions he and those around him made, plus a tiny element of chance. I don't really like calling that luck, or even saying that he made his own luck.

But anyway, that's my one permitted nonsense rambling on this forum per day, so I guess I'll end there.

[S. Stormy she/her]

1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

But anyway, that's my one permitted nonsense rambling on this forum per day, so I guess I'll end there.

Well, I'm flattered that you used it on the thread I started. So thank you. I enjoyed your nonsense rambling(But seriously, that's really interesting).

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

I mean I would advise against seeing this as a binary. Remember in WoR that Kaladin complained that Syl helping him be better with a spear was cheating, and Syl responded that even if he had some advantage, he still worked himself half to death getting good with it and perfecting his technique. Kal's leadership and ingenuity did save the bridge men. Stormlight certainly didn't give him the idea of feeding them stew and exercising even on their days off. Yes, the stormlight helped, but so subtly that no one even noticed. But even with that in mind, we can't separate Kaladin the Radiant from Kaladin the man, they're the same person and, based on Syl's comments about knowing him before they met, he always has been Kaladin the Radiant, even before Syl woke up. His use of stormlight is part of his ingenuity and leadership skills, even when he didn't know it.

I think this might be where the idea of Kaladin being destined to be good with a spear and then resonating backwards kind of comes in play. In the Cosmere, the idea of who you could be isn't really a thing. Yeah, futuresight shows a bunch of different possibilities, but I also don't think alternate timelines actually exist. Future sight shows what could be, but that doesn't mean there's a difference between that and what is. I apologize because I'm about to go into philosophical semi-nonsense, but in the Cosmere everyone has someone they're meant to be, this is their ideal self. People see glimpses of it when they view the Spirit Realm, such as when healed by an enlightened Truthwatcher. Personally, I disagree with Sanderson about how much influence a cognitive aspect should have over the manifestation of that ideal, but Sanderson and I probably disagree on the fundamental philosophy of that decision anyway, so its not particularly relevant. My point is, there is a man Kaladin is supposed to be and all his life has either been moving towards or away from that. Becoming a Knight Radiant acted as a major stepping stone to becoming that man, in part because being invested helps draw the three aspects of a person closer together. Kaladin's luck, skill, and circumstances are probably all manifestations of moving closer or further to that ideal of the man he could be. This is what I think destiny means in the Cosmere: who you're supposed to be. Maybe you don't necessarily become that person. Maybe its not even possible for a person to totally fulfill their destiny, and a partial success is all one can hope for. Am I saying Kaladin is personally responsible for the circumstances that have led to his losses and pains? No, of course not. But there is something to be said about them all happening because Kaladin is who he is. He attempted and failed ten escape attempts because He's Kaladin freaking Stormblessed, and he can't tolerate oppression and restriction. He's so good with a spear and has survived where no one else did because he's Kaladin freaking Stormblessed, and he's a survivor and a fighter. He succeeded in saving Bridge Four because he's Kaladin freaking Stormblessed, and he protects those who cannot protect themselves. In every situation he made the decision he would make because he is him. We can't take credit away from him for making those decision any more than we can fault him for the circumstances in which he made them.

So what am I really saying, in non-rambling terms about Kaladin's luck? I guess I'd just have to say that Kaladin's life is more than a summation of the good and bad things that he's experienced and to condense all those down to luck is unfair considering everything Kaladin has done to change his life, and everything other people have done to change it. Kaladin's life is the result of the decisions he and those around him made, plus a tiny element of chance. I don't really like calling that luck, or even saying that he made his own luck.

But anyway, that's my one permitted nonsense rambling on this forum per day, so I guess I'll end there.

Sure, but if he is destined to atleast have the capability to be great, then isn't he lucky? Yes he suffers a lot of tragedy, but he has actual power and influence around his surroundings.

Common people also have suffered tragedies, but they have no power to change their situation. Basically Kal gets to survive when others don't. Isn't that lucky?

[+robardin he/him]

17 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Realising that Kaladin had been redirecting the arrows into the bridge always leaves a bad taste on my mouth the more I reread WoK. It takes a lot away from kal, because you think it's his leadership skills and ingenuity that saves the bridge men, but in reality it was his latent surgebinding. Kal would not have lasted more than 4 weeks Max in the bridge crews otherwise, if he was a vanilla mortal. So yes Kaladin is very lucky.

Huh? He'd already met - and obviously bonded with - Syl by that point. The entire point of TWoK, as the "Windrunner" book, is to go in depth into What Makes A Windrunner Tick with POVs (plus the added burden of introducing Roshar and its flora, fauna, and societies).

And that's what makes a Windrunner tick. The desire to save not himself, but others. And he was doing this unconsciously - his instinctive use of Surgebinding was not to fly, or to stick Lopen to the wall, but to use Reverse Lashings to shield his men.

When you also realize that the Windrunner powers were literally the first Surges we see described in SA - from Szeth's POV as he goes a-killing with The Three Lashings - you see how it's not the powerset that defines the Radiant, but the nature of the person who attracts the spren that grants the powerset.

Jezrien's Honorblade grants the same powers, but did we ever see Szeth save people by drawing fire towards himself? Or (LOL) Moash? (Who, ironically, initially exhibits Windrunner-like characteristics in saving Sah and Khen and other former parshmen from abuse by singers as a human slave, before going Full Odium.)

And, as far as his leadership and ingenuity goes, those ARE what created Bridge Four as a unit. The Surgebinding kept them alive on bridge runs, yes, but getting them to open up to each other, to give their names, to learn discipline, to trust him and each other? That's all Kal. In fact what made any of that possible was his saving the lives of Dabbid and Hobber, who were still nameless, left-to-die bridgemen to everybody else. Nothing to do with Surges.

Seeing someone else value human life moved Rock out of his inhumanity. And then Teft. Which led to Kal being able to form a small knobweed gathering crew with them, and then to the stew pot, and so on.

Edited November 3, 2022 by robardin

[HSuperLee he/him]

10 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Sure, but if he is destined to atleast have the capability to be great, then isn't he lucky? Yes he suffers a lot of tragedy, but he has actual power and influence around his surroundings.

Common people also have suffered tragedies, but they have no power to change their situation. Basically Kal gets to survive when others don't. Isn't that lucky?

I would argue that one of the themes in Stormlight Archive is that there are no common people. Is Kal destined for greatness? Yes. But does that mean most other people aren't? I don't think so. The fact everyone has a spiritual ideal which is illuminated to them in different circumstances (truthwatcher healing and lighterweaver art) seems to indicate that everyone in the Cosmere is destined for greatness. Many people simply fail to achieve it. Possibly because don't or can't believe it about themselves. There's a reason why spren seek out everyday people in addition to soldiers and kings. There's a reason why characters change in the Stormlight Archive. Heck, look at Gaz or Elhokar. Both started out as terrible people but then Shallan showed them drawing of who they could be, which I believe was their spiritual ideals. Just seeing a piece of what they could have been was enough motivation to push them both to becoming Knight Radiant. I don't think Kaladin is lucky, I think he just never compromised who he was where as most people, in-story and out, at some point do compromise their character for one reason or another. I'm not going to inherently fault people for that, Heaven knows I've done it, but I think one the main messages we're supposed to take away from the Stormlight Archive is that everyone is broken and messed up but everyone can be better than they currently are. Everyone has the capability to be great. Its just hard work getting there.