Kaladin is most certainly not lucky

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Huh? He'd already met - and obviously bonded with - Syl by that point. The entire point of TWoK, as the "Windrunner" book, is to go in depth into What Makes A Windrunner Tick with POVs (plus the added burden of introducing Roshar and its flora, fauna, and societies).

And that's what makes a Windrunner tick. The desire to save not himself, but others. And he was doing this unconsciously - his instinctive use of Surgebinding was not to fly, or to stick Lopen to the wall, but to use Reverse Lashings to shield his men.

When you also realize that the Windrunner powers were literally the first Surges we see described in SA - from Szeth's POV as he goes a-killing with The Three Lashings - you see how it's not the powerset that defines the Radiant, but the nature of the person who attracts the spren that grants the powerset.

Jezrien's Honorblade grants the same powers, but did we ever see Szeth save people by drawing fire towards himself? Or (LOL) Moash? (Who, ironically, initially exhibits Windrunner-like characteristics in saving Sah and Khen and other former parshmen from abuse by singers as a human slave, before going Full Odium.)

And, as far as his leadership and ingenuity goes, those ARE what created Bridge Four as a unit. The Surgebinding kept them alive on bridge runs, yes, but getting them to open up to each other, to give their names, to learn discipline, to trust him and each other? That's all Kal. In fact what made any of that possible was his saving the lives of Dabbid and Hobber, who were still nameless, left-to-die bridgemen to everybody else. Nothing to do with Surges.

Seeing someone else value human life moved Rock out of his inhumanity. And then Teft. Which led to Kal being able to form a small knobweed gathering crew with them, and then to the stew pot, and so on.

But no matter how amazing of a person he is, he would have still died very quickly (within a week or two) if he hadn't been unconsciously redirecting the arrows.

For example: if syl had slept for like three extra years(she was sleeping for thousands right?), She would have just started searching for a windrunner among millions of people(if my timeline is right). So she could not help Kal. Then he would have died quickly (as he insisted on staying at the front of the bridge)

Another example: What if the bridge three leader imitated Kal after being inspired? There are no honorspren to bond him. Then wouldn't he die? 

. My point isn't that kal doesn't deserve credit at all. My point is he was lucky, that's nothing to be ashamed of. The circumstances were so dire that he would have died without luck. Opportunity is Luck+Preparation after all.

6 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I would argue that one of the themes in Stormlight Archive is that there are no common people. Is Kal destined for greatness? Yes. But does that mean most other people aren't? I don't think so. The fact everyone has a spiritual ideal which is illuminated to them in different circumstances (truthwatcher healing and lighterweaver art) seems to indicate that everyone in the Cosmere is destined for greatness. Many people simply fail to achieve it. Possibly because don't or can't believe it about themselves. There's a reason why spren seek out everyday people in addition to soldiers and kings. There's a reason why characters change in the Stormlight Archive. Heck, look at Gaz or Elhokar. Both started out as terrible people but then Shallan showed them drawing of who they could be, which I believe was their spiritual ideals. Just seeing a piece of what they could have been was enough motivation to push them both to becoming Knight Radiant. I don't think Kaladin is lucky, I think he just never compromised who he was where as most people, in-story and out, at some point do compromise their character for one reason or another. I'm not going to inherently fault people for that, Heaven knows I've done it, but I think one the main messages we're supposed to take away from the Stormlight Archive is that everyone is broken and messed up but everyone can be better than they currently are. Everyone has the capability to be great. Its just hard work getting there.

I agree that there is a good chance that everyone is meant for greatness. But the way he gets his power is still lucky.

If odium had taken just 50 more years to push the everstorm, syl prolly would not have bonded Kal.

This is not an attack against Kal. He did his very best, but it would not have been enough without syl. Success isn't after all just hard work. That's not me saying that, it's Brandon saying that. 

Quote

https://youtu.be/oH9sJrAVeC0

Kal is lucky and he deserves it. But a lot of people don't get what they deserve (even in Brandon's stories). Kal did.

 

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But no matter how amazing of a person he is, he would have still died very quickly (within a week or two) if he hadn't been unconsciously redirecting the arrows.

For example: if syl had slept for like three extra years(she was sleeping for thousands right?), She would have just started searching for a windrunner among millions of people(if my timeline is right). So she could not help Kal. Then he would have died quickly (as he insisted on staying at the front of the bridge)

Another example: What if the bridge three leader imitated Kal after being inspired? There are no honorspren to bond him. Then wouldn't he die? 

. My point isn't that kal doesn't deserve credit at all. My point is he was lucky, that's nothing to be ashamed of. The circumstances were so dire that he would have died without luck. Opportunity is Luck+Preparation after all.

I agree that there is a good chance that everyone is meant for greatness. But the way he gets his power is still lucky.

If odium had taken just 50 more years to push the everstorm, syl prolly would not have bonded Kal.

This is not an attack against Kal. He did his very best, but it would not have been enough without syl. Success isn't after all just hard work. That's not me saying that, it's Brandon saying that. 

Kal is lucky and he deserves it. But a lot of people don't get what they deserve (even in Brandon's stories). Kal did.

So it's a little bit circular here, because after all, this is a work of epic fantasy. Even if you took it for a historical biography, though, a corollary of "history is written by the winner" would be that "histories are written about the influential".

Yes, you're right, several factors well out of Kaladin's control resulted in Syl finding and bonding him specifically, and so on.

Change this or that, and he'd have been just another quickly dead bridge running slave, if not killed way earlier, like simply being cut down with the rest of his squad in Amaram's army by the Shardbearer (Helaran) due to not having that nascent bond helping him to defeat him on the battlefield.

Well, what then? Syl bonds someone else? The Windrunners are refounded by a putative "Nidalak", someone just as worthy but who died ignominiously in Bridge Three, who bonded Syl instead?

Well, then... The Way of Kings (the Sanderson novel, not the in-world work by Nohadon) would have been written about Nidalak, and you could have the same "complaint" about how the main character of the book seemed to have things work out just right, to be in the right place at the right time with the right circumstances in his life, to be one of the first Radiants in hundreds of years (well, one not a Skybreaker).

[KaladinWorldsinger]

15 minutes ago, robardin said:

So it's a little bit circular here, because after all, this is a work of epic fantasy. Even if you took it for a historical biography, though, a corollary of "history is written by the winner" would be that "histories are written about the influential".

Yes, you're right, several factors well out of Kaladin's control resulted in Syl finding and bonding him specifically, and so on.

Change this or that, and he'd have been just another quickly dead bridge running slave, if not killed way earlier, like simply being cut down with the rest of his squad in Amaram's army by the Shardbearer (Helaran) due to not having that nascent bond helping him to defeat him on the battlefield.

Well, what then? Syl bonds someone else? The Windrunners are refounded by a putative "Nidalak", someone just as worthy but who died ignominiously in Bridge Three, who bonded Syl instead?

Well, then... The Way of Kings (the Sanderson novel, not the in-world work by Nohadon) would have been written about Nidalak, and you could have the same "complaint" about how the main character of the book seemed to have things work out just right, to be in the right place at the right time with the right circumstances in his life, to be one of the first Radiants in hundreds of years (well, one not a Skybreaker).

Yes exactly. My point is then that Nidalak would be lucky instead of Kaladin.

The bad taste in my mouth that I said earlier was that it took me till rereads to figure how important (and convenient) the nahel bond. On my first read through i was confused about the actual level of danger kal was in from the arrows, so i had no bad feelings then. This was just a me problem

Still, not saying Kal isn't amazing, just that he is also lucky

[Frustration he/him]

22 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Yes exactly. My point is then that Nidalak would be lucky instead of Kaladin.

The bad taste in my mouth that I said earlier was that it took me till rereads to figure how important (and convenient) the nahel bond. On my first read through i was confused about the actual level of danger kal was in from the arrows, so i had no bad feelings then. This was just a me problem

Still, not saying Kal isn't amazing, just that he is also lucky

If he survived for so long without the Nahel bond that would have been so much worse. It would have completely obliterated the already low stakes. And he would actually have ended up luckier than if he had only been able to survive by using reverse lashings.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

If he survived for so long without the Nahel bond that would have been so much worse. It would have completely obliterated the already low stakes. And he would actually have ended up luckier than if he had only been able to survive by using reverse lashings.

I did not say that Kal should have survived without surgebinding. Just that it was very convenient for Kal to have no plan for the intense danger level he put himself in and still survive with his nahel bond. He till the end never truly finds a way around it with his ingenuity, instead of all his other problems